2017 edge rusher

[JoeyFlex5]

42 minutes ago, raven94 said:

That is an excellent point, but with our first round pick I think you need to try and acquire a complete player. I don't think I would take Harris just for his pass rush in the 1st round. 2nd? That would definitely be hard to pass on, and I do believe Harris' deficiencies can be coached out of him

I think you just gotta weigh the ups and downs accordingly. We have always had top shelf run defenders, we've lacked a speed rusher for years though, and you usually don't draft an edge defender in the first round for his run defense unless you really need a boost against the run. 

Hes not my first choice, but I would have no problems with him at 16 because he brings something we desperately need 

[rossihunter2]

56 minutes ago, raven94 said:

That is an excellent point, but with our first round pick I think you need to try and acquire a complete player. I don't think I would take Harris just for his pass rush in the 1st round. 2nd? That would definitely be hard to pass on, and I do believe Harris' deficiencies can be coached out of him

i would - i think therein lies the difference - if someone is truly that good a pass rusher i personally absolve them from any other production sins because of how valuable pass rush is...

[rossihunter2]

that all being said i think that i've almost come full circle with tim williams having not heard anything more about his off-field troubles since they first arose... he's creeping back closer to the top 20 than he has been since before those problems became public knowledge just because his first step and athleticism is that good, i think with a good combine (including interviews) he leaps back into the top 20

[ravensnation5220]

19 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

that all being said i think that i've almost come full circle with tim williams having not heard anything more about his off-field troubles since they first arose... he's creeping back closer to the top 20 than he has been since before those problems became public knowledge just because his first step and athleticism is that good, i think with a good combine (including interviews) he leaps back into the top 20

I was about to say this but I'll hold my breath until after the combine. We all know they will run drug tests. Just waiting to hear who fails. I'd rather deal with his problems over cook any day of the week. 

[PurpleHorseman]

Charlton is going to end up being a top10 pick. Especially if he runs and tests well at the combine. He is a freak with magnet like burst when closing in on the ball carrier. Think somewhere between a young Julius Peppers and a stronger more explosive version of Chandler Jones. Closer to Julius Peppers. He can play the line and stand up and drop into coverage. He is a rare freak athlete

[ravensnation5220]

Keionta Davis from Chattanooga is a small school guy to keep your eye on. On tape he looks like he could play 5-tech and could play the edge on running downs. Doesn't seem to play well in space to be a OLB. I did like what I saw vs Bama and I heard he did well vs Florida st

[rossihunter2]

10 hours ago, ravensnation5220 said:

I was about to say this but I'll hold my breath until after the combine. We all know they will run drug tests. Just waiting to hear who fails. I'd rather deal with his problems over cook any day of the week. 

yeah of course it could go either way depending on how he interviews and how he drug tests - the interview will be crucial (im assuming he'll have one)

[raven94]

13 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I think you just gotta weigh the ups and downs accordingly. We have always had top shelf run defenders, we've lacked a speed rusher for years though, and you usually don't draft an edge defender in the first round for his run defense unless you really need a boost against the run. 

Hes not my first choice, but I would have no problems with him at 16 because he brings something we desperately need 

Well........ that is certainly a fair assessment. There's nothing wrong with your logic there and it's a difference of opinion. For me it's just a little too much of a reach at 16. For me I would consider him after 24. Anyway as far as pass rushers go I would like Tim Williams, but I've been waffling about where. If we could get him in Rd 2 that would be a steal. I would like to go CB in round 1 and then T. Williams in 2. We'll  see what happens though

[rossihunter2]

2 hours ago, raven94 said:

Well........ that is certainly a fair assessment. There's nothing wrong with your logic there and it's a difference of opinion. For me it's just a little too much of a reach at 16. For me I would consider him after 24. Anyway as far as pass rushers go I would like Tim Williams, but I've been waffling about where. If we could get him in Rd 2 that would be a steal. I would like to go CB in round 1 and then T. Williams in 2. We'll  see what happens though

unless williams flunks the combine and his interviews i dont think he gets out of the first if im honest - i think an end of the first team is gonna take a chance

[RaineV1]

1 hour ago, rossihunter2 said:

unless williams flunks the combine and his interviews i dont think he gets out of the first if im honest - i think an end of the first team is gonna take a chance

Agreed. Most of the playoff teams and even the Super Bowl teams could use a young edge rusher. The Falcons could use a compliment to Beasley on the other side, and the Pats' edge rushers are over the hill aside from Trey Flowers.

[KBoum]

I really like Williams on tape. Explosive first step. He's a 10+ sacks potential player imo. Pass rush specialist at this point... 2017 isn't my favorite draft but Williams is one of the few player I like on tape. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

22 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I think you just gotta weigh the ups and downs accordingly. We have always had top shelf run defenders, we've lacked a speed rusher for years though, and you usually don't draft an edge defender in the first round for his run defense unless you really need a boost against the run. 

Hes not my first choice, but I would have no problems with him at 16 because he brings something we desperately need 

I'd be alright with Harris. Just started really looking at the edge rushers and I have him as the 3rd/4th guy after Garrett and Barnett. 

I've been back and forth between Takk and Harris as the next guy. I like both and wouldn't be disappointed with either at 16 depending on who else is available. 

As you point out I think Harris gives us exactly what we need day 1. We've got guys that can play the run... we need speed on the edge. 

[ravensnation5220]

2 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I'd be alright with Harris. Just started really looking at the edge rushers and I have him as the 3rd/4th guy after Garrett and Barnett. 

I've been back and forth between Takk and Harris as the next guy. I like both and wouldn't be disappointed with either at 16 depending on who else is available. 

As you point out I think Harris gives us exactly what we need day 1. We've got guys that can play the run... we need speed on the edge. 

I think Takk has more upside than Harris. Takk also brings speed off the edge maybe just as well as Harris. He just doesn't have as many moves

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

21 hours ago, PurpleHorseman said:

Charlton is going to end up being a top10 pick. Especially if he runs and tests well at the combine. He is a freak with magnet like burst when closing in on the ball carrier. Think somewhere between a young Julius Peppers and a stronger more explosive version of Chandler Jones. Closer to Julius Peppers. He can play the line and stand up and drop into coverage. He is a rare freak athlete

I didn't like Taco as much as others. I def don't see top 10. 

Garret, Barnett, Takk and Harris are all firmly ahead of him for me. In fairness I've got more studying to do having only watched highlights and 2-3 games on each, so it could change. 

But I didn't see much nuance to his game. Not much bend, takes wide angles too often, a lot of his production seemed to come on designed stunts or delayed blitzes or broken plays. So far I've seen a guy dominating with athleticism and not much else. 

I'll watch more on him though. I soured on him quickly and watched with a bit of a bias from then on.

Any recommendation on a certain game or games that you think best reflect his upside?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

6 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

I think Takk has more upside than Harris. Takk also brings speed off the edge maybe just as well as Harris. He just doesn't have as many moves

Takk's a wrecking ball and in my most recent film watching session settled on him 3rd just a hair ahead of Harris.... but they're really close imo. 

Hes got this weird spin move that's surprisingly effective, but yea it's pretty obvious he needs some refinement. 

But I feel like he reads plays extremely well and sheds blocks with ease. Didn't see him get caught overpursuing much, and he's a decisive, high percentage finisher. 

2 weeks ago I'd have said the only two edge rushers I'd take at 16 were garret and Barnett but I'm definitely warming on Takk and Harris. Especially bc I think there's a serious drop off after those 4 but some great potential value options at CB, OL, S and WR in the 2nd/3rd rounds. 

The only day 2 pass rusher I really really like is Tanoh Kpassagnon. 

[ravensnation5220]

4 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Takk's a wrecking ball and in my most recent film watching session settled on him 3rd just a hair ahead of Harris.... but they're really close imo. 

Hes got this weird spin move that's surprisingly effective, but yea it's pretty obvious he needs some refinement. 

But I feel like he reads plays extremely well and sheds blocks with ease. Didn't see him get caught overpursuing much, and he's a decisive, high percentage finisher. 

2 weeks ago I'd have said the only two edge rushers I'd take at 16 were garret and Barnett but I'm definitely warming on Takk and Harris. Especially bc I think there's a serious drop off after those 4 but some great potential value options at CB, OL, S and WR in the 2nd/3rd rounds. 

The only day 2 pass rusher I really really like is Tanoh Kpassagnon. 

Ya i agree. I'd also put taco Charlton with those 4 as a top 5. Idk how well taco fits, I think he's a better 4-3 defensive end. However he could play 5-tech if he adds weight.

Takk McKinley will really separate himself and get him into the conversation as the second best pass rusher ahead of Barnett. I feel like he could run a 4.5 40 maybe....maybe sub that but that's a stretch lol. Barnett on the other hand will probably underachieve. On tape it seems like he carries around a little "extra weight" and if he shows up like that in Indy it could hurt him. And maybe his 40 time (say 4.8) 

Barnett honestly reminds me of suggs coming out. Not only measurements but they both had Tremendous production in college yet both (Well see what Barnett tests) underachieve at the combine. Takks rise up draft boards because of a strong combine could help Barnett fall to the ravens at 16. It's a great fit honestly

[PurpleHorseman]

24 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I didn't like Taco as much as others. I def don't see top 10. 

Garret, Barnett, Takk and Harris are all firmly ahead of him for me. In fairness I've got more studying to do having only watched highlights and 2-3 games on each, so it could change. 

But I didn't see much nuance to his game. Not much bend, takes wide angles too often, a lot of his production seemed to come on designed stunts or delayed blitzes or broken plays. So far I've seen a guy dominating with athleticism and not much else. 

I'll watch more on him though. I soured on him quickly and watched with a bit of a bias from then on.

Any recommendation on a certain game or games that you think best reflect his upside?

Ohio State game and orange bowl. I'll be first to say he has to clean some things up in his game. But the upside is speechless. He bends and flattens like a much smaller LB when he isn't sloppy. Big time closing burst and even his ordinary  tackles leave ball carrier hurting. He looks like a bigger stronger More explosive Chandler Jones.

[ravensnation5220]

32 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Any recommendation on a certain game or games that you think best reflect his upside?

I would also say, other than Ohio St and Florida st, Rutgers. Now I know Rutgers is awful but he shows athleticism, get off and bend. A guy 6'6 shouldn't be able to move that well

[JoeyFlex5]

17 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

Ohio State game and orange bowl. I'll be first to say he has to clean some things up in his game. But the upside is speechless. He bends and flattens like a much smaller LB when he isn't sloppy. Big time closing burst and even his ordinary  tackles leave ball carrier hurting. He looks like a bigger stronger More explosive Chandler Jones.

Do you have examples of him showing his bend? Because I have yet to see it and I've studied multiple games. His stiffness is the thing that concerns me the most

[ravensnation5220]

6 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Do you have examples of him showing his bend? Because I have yet to see it and I've studied multiple games. His stiffness is the thing that concerns me the most

I said it above. Watch his Rutgers tape

[PurpleHorseman]

2 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Do you have examples of him showing his bend? Because I have yet to see it and I've studied multiple games. His stiffness is the thing that concerns me the most

Be careful when judging stiffness. When you see a guy not bending much doesn't mean he can't do it. Joey Bosa was supposed to be a bust because of stiffness. Sometimes a player (like Bosa) subtly shows flexibility and desired traits. As for Plays that Charlton shows it I have to watch it again. Chandler Jones only flashed it himself at Syracuse. It took a while to see it and for his stock to heat up. Watch Charltons Ohio St. and orange bowl game it will eventually show up.

[JoeyFlex5]

30 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

Be careful when judging stiffness. When you see a guy not bending much doesn't mean he can't do it. Joey Bosa was supposed to be a bust because of stiffness. Sometimes a player (like Bosa) subtly shows flexibility and desired traits. As for Plays that Charlton shows it I have to watch it again. Chandler Jones only flashed it himself at Syracuse. It took a while to see it and for his stock to heat up. Watch Charltons Ohio St. and orange bowl game it will eventually show up.

Bosa still doesn't have great bend, some players can succeed without it, bosa is an absolute freak and can manhandle his way to the qb, he has shown an average bend for a guy his size at times, but an average bend at 6'7" means he's still easily hemmed up, bosa is just too powerful for that though. I don't think takk has the same qualities. I'll check out the Rutgers game and see where he bends. I also disliked Charles Harris' bend until I saw the vandy tape and saw that he's certainly capable of it, I just haven't seen it from takk yet.

takk is a prospect I wanna like, I love the way he eats up space and I love how nasty he finishes plays, but more than his rawness I feel he's stiff, he has so many times just been at a complete loss as soon as the OT gets in arms reach.

[PurpleHorseman]

19 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Bosa still doesn't have great bend, some players can succeed without it, bosa is an absolute freak and can manhandle his way to the qb, he has shown an average bend for a guy his size at times, but an average bend at 6'7" means he's still easily hemmed up, bosa is just too powerful for that though. I don't think takk has the same qualities. I'll check out the Rutgers game and see where he bends. I also disliked Charles Harris' bend until I saw the vandy tape and saw that he's certainly capable of it, I just haven't seen it from takk yet.

takk is a prospect I wanna like, I love the way he eats up space and I love how nasty he finishes plays, but more than his rawness I feel he's stiff, he has so many times just been at a complete loss as soon as the OT gets in arms reach.

Bosa is 6'5 And Charlton is 6'6. Bosa was supposed to have below average bend because he didn't show it(much). But he actually has slightly above average bend when he actually needs it. We are confident Charlton can drop into coverage at 280lbs. That's freakish.

 

Speaking of Takk I like him. I don't remember where but he bent very well on numerous occasions. He recovered very well on numerous occasions and broke free when a mammoth OT got his hands on him and tried to ride him out of the play. He showed impressive flexibility to break free and finish the play. It is early in draft season. Takes time sometimes to get to the right games to find what you are looking for. Takk isn't my favorite at 16 but I would like the pick.

 

1 hour ago, ravensnation5220 said:

I would also say, other than Ohio St and Florida st, Rutgers. Now I know Rutgers is awful but he shows athleticism, get off and bend. A guy 6'6 shouldn't be able to move that well

 

Edited February 26 by PurpleHorseman

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, PurpleHorseman said:

Bosa is 6'5 And Charlton is 6'6. Bosa was supposed to have below average bend because he didn't show it(much). But he actually has slightly above average bend when he actually needs it. We are confident Charlton can drop into coverage at 280lbs. That's freakish.

 

Speaking of Takk I like him. I don't remember where but he bent very well on numerous occasions. He recovered very well on numerous occasions and broke free when a mammoth OT got his hands on him and tried to ride him out of the play. He showed impressive flexibility to break free and finish the play. It is early in draft season. Takes time sometimes to get to the right games to find what you are looking for. Takk isn't my favorite at 16 but I would like the pick.

 

 

i wasnt referring to tacos bend, i was talking about takk. i know taco can bend, i came on slowly with him but i think hes gonna be a hell of a player. if he can stay consistent(which has been an issue throughout his college career) then he could end up better than barnett.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

8 hours ago, ravensnation5220 said:

Ya i agree. I'd also put taco Charlton with those 4 as a top 5. Idk how well taco fits, I think he's a better 4-3 defensive end. However he could play 5-tech if he adds weight.

Takk McKinley will really separate himself and get him into the conversation as the second best pass rusher ahead of Barnett. I feel like he could run a 4.5 40 maybe....maybe sub that but that's a stretch lol. Barnett on the other hand will probably underachieve. On tape it seems like he carries around a little "extra weight" and if he shows up like that in Indy it could hurt him. And maybe his 40 time (say 4.8) 

Barnett honestly reminds me of suggs coming out. Not only measurements but they both had Tremendous production in college yet both (Well see what Barnett tests) underachieve at the combine. Takks rise up draft boards because of a strong combine could help Barnett fall to the ravens at 16. It's a great fit honestly

I'd be ecstatic if Barnett started to drop bc of people overvaluing the combine. 

I don't put much weight into combine measurements other than to somewhat confirm/deny what I'm already seeing. 

Barnetts just too polished, too productive for me to drop lower than 2nd. And I won't be surprised if end of day he's a better NFL player than Garrett. I just see a great NFL player when I look at him. 

And man does he finish. I think he's the best finisher in the draft. He does it with consistency and violent authority. He's a guy that will make every single one of his hits and sacks count. 

Dare I say I'd consider Barnett over Garrett? I've thought it. I haven't paid much attention to Garrett mainly bc I've trusted his unanimous #1 overall rating and the 0% chance he ends up a Raven... but I just see Barnett as a can't miss, sure thing. 

Floor of a 10-15 yr, 3 down starter. Ceiling of an allpro, 3 down edge player who consistently gets double digit sacks. Suggs all around play in his prime is a decent comp for what I'm projecting Barnett to become at least from a production/impact standpoint. 

I think Barnett might be the most sure thing in the draft behind Jamal Adams. 

[RaineV1]

12 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I'd be ecstatic if Barnett started to drop bc of people overvaluing the combine.

The same way the Ravens ended up with Suggs, and I'd love to get another great edge rusher because of that.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

6 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

The same way the Ravens ended up with Suggs, and I'd love to get another great edge rusher because of that.

Darn straight. Kids a football player. Plain and simple. 

I hope other GMs fall in love with 40 times, athletic traits and upside. Like you point out... Suggs was too slow. DPOY and maybe HOF. 

Not guaranteeing Barnett is that. But I do see most sure fire impact NFL player at that position and maybe in the draft outside Adams. 

[JoeyFlex5]

4 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Darn straight. Kids a football player. Plain and simple. 

I hope other GMs fall in love with 40 times, athletic traits and upside. Like you point out... Suggs was too slow. DPOY and maybe HOF. 

Not guaranteeing Barnett is that. But I do see most sure fire impact NFL player at that position and maybe in the draft outside Adams. 

oddly enough he draws comparisons to suggs frequently, and not just among ravens fans/outlets.

[rossihunter2]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I'd be ecstatic if Barnett started to drop bc of people overvaluing the combine. 

I don't put much weight into combine measurements other than to somewhat confirm/deny what I'm already seeing. 

Barnetts just too polished, too productive for me to drop lower than 2nd. And I won't be surprised if end of day he's a better NFL player than Garrett. I just see a great NFL player when I look at him. 

And man does he finish. I think he's the best finisher in the draft. He does it with consistency and violent authority. He's a guy that will make every single one of his hits and sacks count. 

Dare I say I'd consider Barnett over Garrett? I've thought it. I haven't paid much attention to Garrett mainly bc I've trusted his unanimous #1 overall rating and the 0% chance he ends up a Raven... but I just see Barnett as a can't miss, sure thing. 

Floor of a 10-15 yr, 3 down starter. Ceiling of an allpro, 3 down edge player who consistently gets double digit sacks. Suggs all around play in his prime is a decent comp for what I'm projecting Barnett to become at least from a production/impact standpoint. 

I think Barnett might be the most sure thing in the draft behind Jamal Adams. 

Oh I'm 100% behind this - Garrett has some unusual athleticism and ability to beat down on tackles but the way Barnett bends that edge is a sight to behold - and I like the way he adapts like in the bama game where he tried to beat cam Robinson a number of ways and then just started speed rushing him and bending the edge earlier because he worked out that cam couldn't handle speed - he's got space to grow as well with his spin move needing some work and his use of the inside generally but if anything that just reassures me that he hasn't hit his ceiling yet

[BmoreBird22]

The biggest issue with Barnett is he just does not have that speed, closing burst, or explosion you want from an edge rusher. That's going to limit him to being, in my opinion, an 8-10 sack guy instead of being the potential 15+ sack guy that Garrett will be.

Taco Charlton, I'd think, is a sleeper for the Ravens. He doesn't defend the run, but the Ravens want a pass rusher and he's freakishly athletic and can bend the edge and just burst right upfield to the quarterback. I think he's got scary good potential with good coaching and the Ravens have a history of turning good players into great ones on defense.

Plus, Jim Harbaugh will be more than willing to give John the skinny on Charlton.