Doom injury revealed... does this change your mind about the pass rush?

[Ravens419]

With Dooms injury being revealed and knowing what Suggs played through does this change anybody's outlook on pass rush being a big time need considering we had our two best pass rushers playing with season ending injuries... I really can't believe doom came back so fast from that Achilles it's a miracle he even took the field this year 

[Perfekt]

He should have rested and not held us back. I'm happy he wanted to fight through the injury but he hurt us more then helped us this season.

[GrimCoconut]

8 minutes ago, Ravens419 said:

With Dooms injury being revealed and knowing what Suggs played through does this change anybody's outlook on pass rush being a big time need considering we had our two best pass rushers playing with season ending injuries... I really can't believe doom came back so fast from that Achilles it's a miracle he even took the field this year 

That's true and it may mean he's not cut but no way do we not have pass rushers as our top need next to CB. They are both 1a & 1b TBH. Perhaps Dumervil takes a pay cut to stay here who knows. 

[Ravens419]

8 minutes ago, Perfekt said:

He should have rested and not held us back. I'm happy he wanted to fight through the injury but he hurt us more then helped us this season.

I agree to disagree he made some plays out there which really impresses me now knowing the situation we couldn't get any pass rush because our two pass rushers should've been on IR put that into perspective.... that's two tough as nails dudes but I think he takes a pay cut and stays here which makes OLB less of a concern to me I really think we need to sure up the secondary and our WR 

[rmcjacket23]

25 minutes ago, Ravens419 said:

With Dooms injury being revealed and knowing what Suggs played through does this change anybody's outlook on pass rush being a big time need considering we had our two best pass rushers playing with season ending injuries... I really can't believe doom came back so fast from that Achilles it's a miracle he even took the field this year 

Does it change anything?

No. It means we are scheduled to pay $6M next year to a 32 year old situational pass rusher coming off a torn achilles, which is a difficult injury to recover from.

Which part of that sounds appealing exactly?

[Moderator 3]

1 minute ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Does it change anything?

No. It means we are scheduled to pay $6M next year to a 32 year old situational pass rusher coming off a torn achilles, which is a difficult injury to recover from.

Which part of that sounds appealing exactly?

What if we do a one or two year extension and convert that salary to bonus?  Does that make it more appealing, at least money-wise?

[Ravens419]

4 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

What if we do a one or two year extension and convert that salary to bonus?  Does that make it more appealing, at least money-wise?

 

7 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Does it change anything?

No. It means we are scheduled to pay $6M next year to a 32 year old situational pass rusher coming off a torn achilles, which is a difficult injury to recover from.

Which part of that sounds appealing exactly?

I mean we could restructure his contract and a healthy doom and Suggs can prove to be the best one two punch in the league but there are questions of if they both can stay healthy seems to be a trend at the moment that they aren't 

[rmcjacket23]

4 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

What if we do a one or two year extension and convert that salary to bonus?  Does that make it more appealing, at least money-wise?

I guess. There's plenty of ways we could find a way to keep him around. A straight pay cut in 2017 is one way... just tell him he needs to slash maybe $1-3M off his salary and play for $3-4M. At $3-4M, I'd certainly be interested in keeping him around.

An extension in theory works, but it would have to be for practically little or no guaranteed money, and it would have to be at a lower AAV value, maybe in the same $3-4M a year range.

If you could sign him to like a 2 year, $8M extension and then make his 2017 salary a bonus, it could look something like this:

2017: $3M cap hit

2018: $5M cap hit

2019: $6M cap hit

But again, it would have to be for low guaranteed money, to the point that you could move on from him after 2017 with minimal dead money. 

Frankly, I'm not sure Dumervil would agree to that either. He would probably be better off testing FA at that point. He could easily get $5M a year on the open market.

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, Ravens419 said:

 

I mean we could restructure his contract and a healthy doom and Suggs can prove to be the best one two punch in the league but there are questions of if they both can stay healthy seems to be a trend at the moment that they aren't 

See my response below.

A "restructured" contract doesn't really work with a guy who only has one year left on his deal. A "restructure" typically involves converting salary amounts into bonuses and prorating them for cap space, but that doesn't work when the remaining life on your deal is only one year.

A straight paycut could work, and a short term extension could work. Just not sure what interest there is on either side for those. 

I suspect 2017 will the final year you see Suggs as a Raven also, so I don't see many scenarios where either is on the team past that.

[GrimCoconut]

I don't see a restructure in his future because as stated there's risk for the player and team. I think a pay cut with the ability to earn his money back + would be the most realistic for both sides like what Pitta got. I don't want us to restructure him either. What if he's never the same? Then we're in a worse situation than now unless the guaranteed money is low and in that case why would he do that? It's pay cut or just cut IMO. 

[Ravens419]

6 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I don't see a restructure in his future because as stated there's risk for the player and team. I think a pay cut with the ability to earn his money back + would be the most realistic for both sides like what Pitta got. I don't want us to restructure him either. What if he's never the same? Then we're in a worse situation than now unless the guaranteed money is low and in that case why would he do that? It's pay cut or just cut IMO. 

I gues a pay cut was kinda what I was saying like a pay cut with the chance to earn his original contract back by his pay... I think he will do something like that I feel kinda relieved now though knowing he was playing with that makes me feel like he hasn't lost a step him and sizzle healthy will be key we need to keep them healthy 

[rmw10]

I don't think it really changes anything.  He's still a situational pass rusher toward the end of his career.  Props to him for getting back out there, but I don't think he's suddenly going to turn into the 2014 version of himself.  I still like him to put some pressure on, but unless there's a way to get him back at a cheaper salary, I think his time here is done.  We need to infuse some young talent there.

[balfan23]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

See my response below.

A "restructured" contract doesn't really work with a guy who only has one year left on his deal. A "restructure" typically involves converting salary amounts into bonuses and prorating them for cap space, but that doesn't work when the remaining life on your deal is only one year.

A straight paycut could work, and a short term extension could work. Just not sure what interest there is on either side for those. 

I suspect 2017 will the final year you see Suggs as a Raven also, so I don't see many scenarios where either is on the team past that.

I don't like the idea of an extension to smooth out his cap hit for 2016. That to me just increases your long term risk and we're just in the same spot a year later, with an aged player you don't really feel like provides produciton. 

What do you mean exactly by a "straight paycut"? A team can't just reduce a players pay, can they? Are you talking about a cut in pay by releasing him and then trying to sign him back? 

[Willbacker]

3 minutes ago, balfan23 said:

I don't like the idea of an extension to smooth out his cap hit for 2016. That to me just increases your long term risk and we're just in the same spot a year later, with an aged player you don't really feel like provides produciton. 

What do you mean exactly by a "straight paycut"? A team can't just reduce a players pay, can they? Are you talking about a cut in pay by releasing him and then trying to sign him back? 

They can ask him to take a paycut like they did with Webb and Pitta then give him the chance to earn money back thru incentives. Its the only way they should keep him.

To @Ravens419 you have 2 aging passrushers. This is a major need.

[rmcjacket23]

25 minutes ago, balfan23 said:

I don't like the idea of an extension to smooth out his cap hit for 2016. That to me just increases your long term risk and we're just in the same spot a year later, with an aged player you don't really feel like provides produciton. 

What do you mean exactly by a "straight paycut"? A team can't just reduce a players pay, can they? Are you talking about a cut in pay by releasing him and then trying to sign him back? 

Talking about basically the same thing we just did with Pitta, and what we have done with guys like Webb in the past. You go to him and say "take a paycut or we are cutting you". 

With a guy like Pitta, its a no brainer. He was damaged goods coming into this season, and nobody even knew if he would ever play again. If he declined, we would have cut him, and he probably would have signed a similar or smaller deal with another team. He probably wouldn't get much more than the veteran minimum from another team prior to this season.

So you go to Doom and say "take a paycut or we are cutting you". If he wants to stay and/or if he thinks the market for him won't be as strong as what we offer to pay him, then he likely agrees and stays. If he thinks he could do better elsewhere and/or is offended and wants to leave, then we cut him.

[Tru11]

its sad to realise that 2 old timers playing with season ending injuries where still considered a better option then the young players we have waiting in line....

 

[Ravenseconbeast]

Unfortunately, this is not a charity organization.  Whoever that does not perform to his contract should always be reevaluated.   

"Right player, Right price"   Lets get back to fixing our budget to have a chance of bringing in more quality playmakers and depths into our team.   

That doesn't only go for Pitta, it also goes for Doom and Flacco.  

[PurpleCity5]

Unless he takes a pay cut then he's gone. Definitely think we keep him if he does that though because we have literally not much depth behind him outside of maybe Judon.

[Wildabeast88]

1 hour ago, Willbacker said:

They can ask him to take a paycut like they did with Webb and Pitta then give him the chance to earn money back thru incentives. Its the only way they should keep him.

To @Ravens419 you have 2 aging passrushers. This is a major need.

Yes I agree we need younger pass rushers I am more inclined to try to keep Doom knowing the Achilles was the issue but at a reduced price but we need to get younger I like Judon a lot but we need someone else.

[ellicottraven]

Keep them both but add a quality pass rushing prospect in the draft too. I think Elvis is a great situational pass rusher that will earn his money if healthy. Suggs is our heartbeat on defense and he deserves to be back.

[Ravens419]

2 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

Keep them both but add a quality pass rushing prospect in the draft too. I think Elvis is a great situational pass rusher that will earn his money if healthy. Suggs is our heartbeat on defense and he deserves to be back.

110% agree

[Willbacker]

15 minutes ago, Wildabeast88 said:

Yes I agree we need younger pass rushers I am more inclined to try to keep Doom knowing the Achilles was the issue but at a reduced price but we need to get younger I like Judon a lot but we need someone else.

I'm thinking we need a passrusher and a CB in the 1st 2 rounds in no particular order just however the draft board falls.

[Wildabeast88]

6 minutes ago, Willbacker said:

I'm thinking we need a passrusher and a CB in the 1st 2 rounds in no particular order just however the draft board falls.

Pass rusher needs to be top 2 CB I could see some decent prospects in rounds 3-4 depending on what O-linemen are available in the 2nd. Also we will have Maurice Canady coming back next year who I think could be a solid CB with that typical size all teams look for. 

[Willbacker]

17 minutes ago, Wildabeast88 said:

Pass rusher needs to be top 2 CB I could see some decent prospects in rounds 3-4 depending on what O-linemen are available in the 2nd. Also we will have Maurice Canady coming back next year who I think could be a solid CB with that typical size all teams look for. 

Forgot about Canady and I have liked what Ive seen so far and one guy I like from college is Tredavius White from LSU. I just don't think he make it to 2nd rd and for passrushers(which I'm also talking bout penetrating DLinemen) the only 2 so far I'm confident in are the 2 from Alabama(Williams and Allen) who will be gone in top 10. I've seen a few games but I have to do more research.

[ravens rule]

It's like we forgot the guy had 17 sacks a couple years ago. 

[Cillmatic]

We could've seen what we had in Judon but instead we played a hobbled Dumervil... I say we give Judon the start this week. Give Elvis a break.

[Ravens419]

11 minutes ago, ravens rule said:

It's like we forgot the guy had 17 sacks a couple years ago. 

That's what I'm saying 

[reed20]

Makes me want to keep him but I still want a pass rusher in the first round next season.

[OUravensfan]

On 12/30/2016 at 11:11 AM, Perfekt said:

He should have rested and not held us back. I'm happy he wanted to fight through the injury but he hurt us more then helped us this season.

Yea this is always a funny dynamic in professional sports, a player has a down year than immediately after that year concludes it comes out that player was actually hurt and hindered way more than previously led on. 

Doom and Sugggs disappear too much, still need to address it this off season. 

[Militant X 1]

On 12/30/2016 at 4:34 PM, ravens rule said:

It's like we forgot the guy had 17 sacks a couple years ago. 

Cause it was a couple of years ago.  This is a what have you done for me lately league.