Ozzie's draft magic - Fantasy or Reality?

[usmccharles]

3 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

No, I didn't but we need to learn to let go of some guys before we actually do. 

But that's the thing, you wouldn't  be saying that if he had 15 sacks last year and didn't miss a game.  Cant really do the whole hindsight thing because it goes both ways

[rmcjacket23]

7 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

No, I didn't but we need to learn to let go of some guys before we actually do. 

Still don't see how Dumervil applies to that. Really wouldn't have made any sense to let go of him a year earlier, unless Ozzie had some sort of crystal ball premonition that he was going to tear his achilles and not be effective.

 

[allblackraven]

4 minutes ago, berad said:

The first two were home-grown guys who 'made good' and produced. Mid-round picks, too, you want to reward those guys. It generates a positive culture, imo.

The Ravens aren't alone in overpaying certain players. I think the current issue is the lack of some top-drafted talent from the 2012 and 2013 drafts not producing and that's come home to roost. Another one, like usmc mentioned, is that our defensive system has faltered. Darian Stewart was pedestrian here but is beasting in Denver on a great defense. We used to be that

Definitely - it's always combination of several factors. Less than ideal contracts for the production we ultimately got, below par scouting after the SB win (unless we were in top half where I could draft and not miss), injuries, coaching stubbornness...

[Jonah DeVito]

4 hours ago, Tru11 said:

 

i said nothing about that being the reason he did not work out.

i merely highlighted that he did had to switch and you even admit he had to.

nice try though

 

 

Exactly

[Jonah DeVito]

4 hours ago, hn68wb4 said:

Elam only played FS for one year, so yeah, THAT'S why he didn't work out. Be serious fellas, he played SS all but that one year and just sucked.

You stated Elam NEVER switched positions, I simply said he did. Never said that's why he didn't work. 

[allblackraven]

4 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

But that's the thing, you wouldn't  be saying that if he had 15 sacks last year and didn't miss a game.  Cant really do the whole hindsight thing because it goes both ways

Correct but (see my previous post) it's not just one thing in isolation that caused 3 out of 4 non-winning seasons. I would definitely take at least one top edge rusher in the draft, considering Dumervil's and Sizzle's age, so when injuries happen, you have someone to chase a QB, instead of having to bring washed-up Jason Babin and you make easy on yourself releasing a vet that just doesn't produce anymore due to whatever reason. And you keep that cap space to have a shot at retaining KO or Wagner or BW.....

Also, can you really approve of Pitta's contract after the first injury? I like him as much as anybody but that was ridiculous.

[usmccharles]

12 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

Correct but (see my previous post) it's not just one thing in isolation that caused 3 out of 4 non-winning seasons. I would definitely take at least one top edge rusher in the draft, considering Dumervil's and Sizzle's age, so when injuries happen, you have someone to chase a QB, instead of having to bring washed-up Jason Babin and you make easy on yourself releasing a vet that just doesn't produce anymore due to whatever reason. And you keep that cap space to have a shot at retaining KO or Wagner or BW.....

Also, can you really approve of Pitta's contract after the first injury? I like him as much as anybody but that was ridiculous.

I literally said that I didn't like Pitta's contract.  Didn't make sense to me, just like I didn't like the Watson signing but I understood it.  I agree with you about getting a new edge guy and bringing in Babin was a waste, that was a good time to give younger rushers a chance or just get in game experience.  But bringin in Babin isn't the reason we couldn't retain KO.  IMO, he knew he could just hit the FA market and get paid more than what we could offer him, we made him a very fair offer and I have issue with him chasing money. 

 

[ellicottraven]

2 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Correct me if im wrong below, because id like to see the comparison as well.  

I also think hes comparing it to the players that we select with the comp picks, for instance the guy we select with KO's comp pic this year: if he becomes a stud, great letting KO walk, if hes a bust, should of kept KO. 

But doing that, you also have to look at the compensation the player that leaves is getting.  KO got more money than we could of afforded to pay, letting him walk we were able to sign Weddle and Wallace, etc....

 

 

2 hours ago, berad said:

They became more valuable recently because they've been freed up to be traded. I'd still like the Ravens to consider it when hunting the FA market. They're not afraid to go at a player who isn't that, though - Weddle and Watson.

Here's a good article on the topic. Read it all the way through because its pretty interesting....

http://russellstreetreport.com/2017/02/26/street-talk/ravens-comp-picks/

[RayRayRaven]

3 hours ago, ellicottraven said:

 

Here's a good article on the topic. Read it all the way through because its pretty interesting....

http://russellstreetreport.com/2017/02/26/street-talk/ravens-comp-picks/

we seen it. stockpilin pics and not really gettin much from em.  not a fan of having 12 pics.  do yur job. make your six or seven pics and pic well. you only get to keep 53 anyways.  pic fewer, pic wiser

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, RayRayRaven said:

we seen it. stockpilin pics and not really gettin much from em.  not a fan of having 12 pics.  do yur job. make your six or seven pics and pic well. you only get to keep 53 anyways.  pic fewer, pic wiser

The draft is a crapshoot, more picks = better chance of finding players. Tom Brady went in the 6th and Ryan leaf went 2nd overall. Antonio brown went in he 6th and aj Jenkins went in the first. Yanda went in the third and Greg Robinson went second overall. The list goes on. Put all your eggs in one basket and then drop the basket.

[Tru11]

8 hours ago, Jonah DeVito said:

You stated Elam NEVER switched positions, I simply said he did. Never said that's why he didn't work. 

yup dude played fs all of his rookie season and was nickle corner for a large part of his 2nd season.

but ofcourse to these guys its  all the same position lol.

 

[GrimCoconut]

5 hours ago, Tru11 said:

yup dude played fs all of his rookie season and was nickle corner for a large part of his 2nd season.

but ofcourse to these guys its  all the same position lol.

 

Not being snarky here but do you think Elam didn't pan out because we changed his position and made a square peg fit in a round hole?  I think we stunted his growth because of those "position changes" and possibly gave him too much to do and process but I think that speaks more of the player than the coaches and scouts. Elam isn't very smart, evidenced by his recent and prior activity and his play on the field proves he isn't even football smart.  Changing positions on a guy like that isn't playing to his strengths because that's giving his brain too much to do. Sadly I just don't think Elam was very good. Busts happen and he's one and Sami was right about him from day one. Gotta give that guy credit where it's due. 

[Tru11]

37 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

Not being snarky here but do you think Elam didn't pan out because we changed his position and made a square peg fit in a round hole?  I think we stunted his growth because of those "position changes" and possibly gave him too much to do and process but I think that speaks more of the player than the coaches and scouts. Elam isn't very smart, evidenced by his recent and prior activity and his play on the field proves he isn't even football smart.  Changing positions on a guy like that isn't playing to his strengths because that's giving his brain too much to do. Sadly I just don't think Elam was very good. Busts happen and he's one and Sami was right about him from day one. Gotta give that guy credit where it's due. 

i think a lot of things contributed to him not working out with part of it being him not playing his natural position for majority of his career and him not being that smart only adding to it.

i can find myself in pretty much everything you said.

But quite frankly i was not debating this at any point though.

I was merely pointing out to some of them here that Elam did not play his natural play that often at all , like they seem to think.

2013 he was the FS and 2014 he played a good part as a corner for the obvious reasons....

[The Raven]

Elam's failure had little to do with the "position change" and everything to do with the fact that he was unable to cover, pursue, and tackle. It doesn't matter where you are in the secondary. If you can't do those three things, you're a liability.

[rmw10]

5 minutes ago, The Raven said:

Elam's failure had little to do with the "position change" and everything to do with the fact that he was unable to cover, pursue, and tackle. It doesn't matter where you are in the secondary. If you can't do those three things, you're a liability.

Yep.  When you have issues with the basic fundamentals of football, you're not going to be good no matter what position you're playing.  He was just a bad football player and there's not much more explanation needed, in my opinion.  It had 0 to do with what role he was playing, and everything to do with a lack of ability.

[Willbacker]

8 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Yep.  When you have issues with the basic fundamentals of football, you're not going to be good no matter what position you're playing.  He was just a bad football player and there's not much more explanation needed, in my opinion.  It had 0 to do with what role he was playing, and everything to do with a lack of ability.

And lack of common sense.

[rmcjacket23]

9 hours ago, Tru11 said:

yup dude played fs all of his rookie season and was nickle corner for a large part of his 2nd season.

but ofcourse to these guys its  all the same position lol.

 

And couldn't tackle at any of them.

No evidence to suggest he would all of the sudden be a better tackler at his "natural position", which is obviously debatable as to what position that actually is or if it even exists in the NFL.

Regardless, guys that can't tackle and can't cover at any level are highly unlikely to be good defensive football players, regardless of what role it is.

[Tru11]

2 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

And couldn't tackle at any of them.

No evidence to suggest he would all of the sudden be a better tackler at his "natural position", which is obviously debatable as to what position that actually is or if it even exists in the NFL.

Regardless, guys that can't tackle and can't cover at any level are highly unlikely to be good defensive football players, regardless of what role it is.

Never said he would be a better tackler/player at his natural position.

care to point out where i said that this, or is this yet another pointless attempt for you to argue something i did not say?

Pretty sure i have said a few times now that i merely was pointing out that he indeed did play other positions besides his natural one.
Unless you want to disagree and say he played his natural all the time , there is very little worth to further discuss...

 

 

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

Never said he would be a better tackler/player at his natural position.

care to point out where i said that this, or is this yet another pointless attempt for you to argue something i did not say?

Pretty sure i have said a few times now that i merely was pointing out that he indeed did play other positions besides his natural one.
Unless you want to disagree and say he played his natural all the time , there is very little worth to further discuss...

 

 

Just wanted you to acknowledge that the position he plays doesn't matter because the reason why he failed had literally nothing to do with the position.

Dodge away.

[usmccharles]

14 hours ago, RayRayRaven said:

we seen it. stockpilin pics and not really gettin much from em.  not a fan of having 12 pics.  do yur job. make your six or seven pics and pic well. you only get to keep 53 anyways.  pic fewer, pic wiser

 

12 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

The draft is a crapshoot, more picks = better chance of finding players. Tom Brady went in the 6th and Ryan leaf went 2nd overall. Antonio brown went in he 6th and aj Jenkins went in the first. Yanda went in the third and Greg Robinson went second overall. The list goes on. Put all your eggs in one basket and then drop the basket.

Isnt the first paragraph from the link above enough evidence its worth stock piling picks?  We drafted Yanda who has been one of the best OL guys for around 7 years or so?  yea, seems that strategy worked...

[Tru11]

8 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Just wanted you to acknowledge that the position he plays doesn't matter because the reason why he failed had literally nothing to do with the position.

Dodge away.

i was not discussing the reason he failed.

so there is nothing to acknowledge nor anything to dodge...

 

Edited February 28 by Tru11

[rmcjacket23]

14 hours ago, RayRayRaven said:

we seen it. stockpilin pics and not really gettin much from em.  not a fan of having 12 pics.  do yur job. make your six or seven pics and pic well. you only get to keep 53 anyways.  pic fewer, pic wiser

There's a mountain of data out there that is still trying to be analyzed in terms of just how good NFL teams are at drafting players, but I will say that I've yet to see one statistical support for the idea of having less draft picks yields better draft choices.

In most cases, the data I've seen seems to suggest that quantity of draft picks is arguably the most important aspect of the draft, since the shear risk and volatility of draft pick quality among even the best drafting teams is so erratic that its pretty much impossible to do what you suggested.

Plus, in a salary cap era, you want the overwhelming majority of your 53 man roster to be guys on rookie contracts anyway.

[rmcjacket23]

5 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

i was not discussing the reason he failed.

so there is nothing to acknowledge.

 

"i think a lot of things contributed to him not working out with part of it being him not playing his natural position for majority of his career and him not being that smart only adding to it."

Sure you weren't.

[Tru11]

14 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

"i think a lot of things contributed to him not working out with part of it being him not playing his natural position for majority of his career and him not being that smart only adding to it."

Sure you weren't.

 

2 hours ago, Tru11 said:

i think a lot of things contributed to him not working out with part of it being him not playing his natural position for majority of his career and him not being that smart only adding to it.

i can find myself in pretty much everything you said.

But quite frankly i was not debating this at any point though.

I was merely pointing out to some of them here that Elam did not play his natural play that often at all , like they seem to think.

2013 he was the FS and 2014 he played a good part as a corner for the obvious reasons....

no i wasn't as you can clearly read in the bolded part.

i was even agreeing with what he said in the first place.

also what part of that is bolded & underlined cant you comprehend?

[GrimCoconut]

1 hour ago, The Raven said:

Elam's failure had little to do with the "position change" and everything to do with the fact that he was unable to cover, pursue, and tackle. It doesn't matter where you are in the secondary. If you can't do those three things, you're a liability.

 

1 hour ago, rmw10 said:

Yep.  When you have issues with the basic fundamentals of football, you're not going to be good no matter what position you're playing.  He was just a bad football player and there's not much more explanation needed, in my opinion.  It had 0 to do with what role he was playing, and everything to do with a lack of ability.

 

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

And couldn't tackle at any of them.

No evidence to suggest he would all of the sudden be a better tackler at his "natural position", which is obviously debatable as to what position that actually is or if it even exists in the NFL.

Regardless, guys that can't tackle and can't cover at any level are highly unlikely to be good defensive football players, regardless of what role it is.

Summed up: he just wasn't very good at anything he needs to do regardless of his position. 

[rmcjacket23]

24 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

 

no i wasn't as you can clearly read in the bolded part.

i was even agreeing with what he said in the first place.

also what part of that is bolded & underlined cant you comprehend?

So what was your purpose for posting anything then? Trolling?

If you're goal was to point out that he played different positions, did you somehow think you had some sort of top-secret insider information that nobody else but you was aware of? And then to acknowledge that its really not relevant at all? I mean any way you slice it, you pointed out something, and then acknowledged that what you pointed out didn't really matter.

It seems that you were trolling, caught yourself doing it terribly, then got mad when people pointed it out.

I mean its comical at this point.

[JoeyFlex5]

58 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

 

Isnt the first paragraph from the link above enough evidence its worth stock piling picks?  We drafted Yanda who has been one of the best OL guys for around 7 years or so?  yea, seems that strategy worked...

Without stockpiling picks for 2016 we wouldn't have Judon and we would have been short a fourth round pick, so we would be losing one of young, Lewis, Dixon, Henry, or Moore. If we went with Henry or Moore over Dixon Lewis or young then this draft class suddenly wouldn't look so good, but we stockpiled picks and got home runs in the mid rounds which set up our future nicely. 

Not to mention, we drafted KC to be an edge rusher and he fell short there, but looked good at ILB, and Zach Orr retired, so we set ourselves up nicely with an insurance policy. I'd rather have KC at ilb with Judon and Dixon/young/Lewis than spence or jack, easy.

[Willbacker]

6 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Without stockpiling picks for 2016 we wouldn't have Judon and we would have been short a fourth round pick, so we would be losing one of young, Lewis, Dixon, Henry, or Moore. If we went with Henry or Moore over Dixon Lewis or young then this draft class suddenly wouldn't look so good, but we stockpiled picks and got home runs in the mid rounds which set up our future nicely. 

Not to mention, we drafted KC to be an edge rusher and he fell short there, but looked good at ILB, and Zach Orr retired, so we set ourselves up nicely with an insurance policy. I'd rather have KC at ilb with Judon and Dixon/young/Lewis than spence or jack, easy.

Dixon was the one we got so RayRay WrongWrong again.

[RayRayRaven]

53 minutes ago, Willbacker said:

Dixon was the one we got so RayRay WrongWrong again.

dixon not a bad player. he be useful. reminds me of Bernard pierc. which is to say a runnin back is jus a runnin back less hes in ray rice mold. jus sayin. lots of bad talk about us stockin compensation pics, the ones the league gives you if you lose a veteran to free agent.  me? rather keep the vet than get a dixon or sign a good free agent instead of getting a dixon, see what I'm sayin?

one more time rayrayraven is all about doin your job.  a back has to do his job. you go to work you do your job. you go to the store the checker does her job. you pic first in the draft you betta do ur job.  give rayrayraven 7 draff pics @ 16 on the clock and i'll draff ya some football players fur sur. wont need to stockpyle comp pics.  sheez if a picker drafts well you can't keep 12 rook pics anyways. no need for a  pichorda that can't pic!

doan think I can do  it?  tune into 2017 Draft board on t his site message group called Lets help ozzie

[rmcjacket23]

16 minutes ago, RayRayRaven said:

dixon not a bad player. he be useful. reminds me of Bernard pierc. which is to say a runnin back is jus a runnin back less hes in ray rice mold. jus sayin. lots of bad talk about us stockin compensation pics, the ones the league gives you if you lose a veteran to free agent.  me? rather keep the vet than get a dixon or sign a good free agent instead of getting a dixon, see what I'm sayin?

one more time rayrayraven is all about doin your job.  a back has to do his job. you go to work you do your job. you go to the store the checker does her job. you pic first in the draft you betta do ur job.  give rayrayraven 7 draff pics @ 16 on the clock and i'll draff ya some football players fur sur. wont need to stockpyle comp pics.  sheez if a picker drafts well you can't keep 12 rook pics anyways. no need for a  pichorda that can't pic!

doan think I can do  it?  tune into 2017 Draft board on t his site message group called Lets help ozzie

Why can't you keep 12 rookies again? Do you think there are teams out there that actually have like 40-45 quality veterans on their roster in a given season?

Would love to know who they are, because I don't see that team.