APPRECIATION THREAD: Joe Flacco was a couple of possessions away from being in 4 Superbowls in 8 years!!!!

[The Raven]

19 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

Dont decision making and football intelligence go hand in hand?

agreed though that he is not a WCO passer.
was wrong to turn him into 1 TBH.

waste of his big arm as well.

 

 

 

I think there's a slight difference. You can be smart but still make risky decisions. That's where I think Joe is. I'd rather have a guy that makes wiser decisions, because one in the hand is worth two in the bush. But, this is who we have.

WCO worked for him under Kubiak, not sure why it stopped under Trestman/Marty. I think Kubiak's was a modified WCO with more intermediate and deep routes to open up the defense and attack downfield. Lot of three level routes. Trestman's WCO was all short crap. Marty is just all over the place. 

With Kubiak, it was clear that routes were tied to the QB's footwork. Generally, everything stems from the QB's footwork. Protection schemes and routes are both tied to the number of steps the QB takes. Off hand, I think the general rule is that a WR's route is three steps for every step a QB takes. And that was evident under Kubiak. Joe would throw the ball almost immediately upon hitting his landmark -- and we found success because of it.

I don't want to suggest that Marty and Marc don't tie footwork to the routes, because I'm pretty sure that's just the NFL standard, but for whatever reason, I saw less timing.

[ellicottraven]

14 hours ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

Joe Flacco would own NFL's highest cap figure if Tony Romo is cut or traded

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/baltimore-ravens/post/_/id/33863/joe-flacco-would-own-nfls-highest-cap-figure-if-tony-romo-is-cut-or-traded

Enjoy the discussion Flacco fans!  

Let me get your take on your opinion.

 

Well finally Flacco is ranked #1! Yippeee~

[The Raven]

Just now, ellicottraven said:

I'm not saying I am a great judge of football intelligence. I just read what's written about these things. In response I would simply ask you to also read this. Also he ranked 25th out of 35 pre snap read QB rankings. That to me is a direct reflection of film study and football intelligence, because defenses don't use a formation and just stand there. They deceive and its up to the QB to figure it out.

1. Who graded that?

2. How did they grade that?

3. Where can I read it?

I'm not totally sure how it's feasible to grade pre snap reads, because there are a lot of variables the evaluator wouldn't know, but I'd like to read the report. 

[ellicottraven]

52 minutes ago, The Raven said:

1. Who graded that?

2. How did they grade that?

3. Where can I read it?

I'm not totally sure how it's feasible to grade pre snap reads, because there are a lot of variables the evaluator wouldn't know, but I'd like to read the report. 

Sorry. I thought I provided the link.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2016/film-room-joe-flacco

http://presnapreads.com/pre-order-the-2016-pre-snap-reads-quarterback-catalogue/

Edited February 23 by ellicottraven

[Tank 92]

10 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

Sorry. I thought I provided the link.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2016/film-room-joe-flacco

http://presnapreads.com/pre-order-the-2016-pre-snap-reads-quarterback-catalogue/

These were based on the 2015 season? I don't think one needs an analysis at this level to know that Joe and the offense sucked in 2015.  just sayin'. 

I'd like to see the same analyses for 2014.

[The Raven]

27 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

Sorry. I thought I provided the link.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2016/film-room-joe-flacco

http://presnapreads.com/pre-order-the-2016-pre-snap-reads-quarterback-catalogue/

1. We already knew that he has bad footwork and a lazy throwing motion. Also note the interior pressure. Also also note that our line was a joke in 2015.

2. That book, which I'm not buying, doesn't mention pre-snap reads, as you said. It evaluates interceptable balls, YAC, sacks, etc... but not pre-snap reads, probably because it's not feasible to do so. Pre-snap Reads is the name of the website. Thanks for trying.

And as Tank said, I'd love to see a 2014 analysis.

Again, I maintain that Joe will do better if we simply get a line and running game that's on par with the teams that made the playoffs. Joe has won a Super Bowl. What has changed since then is the team around him. The receivers and line aren't nearly as good.

Edited February 23 by The Raven

[JoeyFlex5]

How many of these analyses separate his first and second halves of the season? Let's look at the variables...

first half: still mentally weighed down by a newly recovered torn knee ligament, compounded by the fact that his starting LT is injured.

#1 wr is injured 

trestman 

run game averaging next to nothing 

zuttah playing injured and getting demolished every snap 

 

second half: looking more comfortable on his knee

starting line mostly intact including a very good LT

#1 wr returns 

Marty looks better than trestman(joes knee recovering and a better OL could play a part in this) 

run game appears somewhat better, inconsistent but shows ability to break decent chunks a handful of times per game 

 

there is so little context to the analyses of flaccos game it's mind boggling that people still don't consider these factors. He needs to improve, but aside from the pats game which featured a brilliant defensive game plan from Matt Patricia, flacco looked really solid for the entire second half. The best he's looked since kubiak without question 

[ravensnick]

I still think Flacco is easily top ten quarterback in the league talent wise. I mean, he's won more games that Matt Ryan has played in and he's creeping on Peyton on the playoff wins column. He just has never had a dominant or even just really, really good WR. If we keep the OL healthy, give Joe a great weapon, and keep OC consistently doing what Joe does best (Play action), He'll go back to peak form. I still think Joe is 100% worth his contract. Without him, we'd probably be starting another Boller or Troy Smith.

[trevorsteadman]

59 minutes ago, ravensnick said:

I still think Flacco is easily top ten quarterback in the league talent wise. I mean, he's won more games that Matt Ryan has played in and he's creeping on Peyton on the playoff wins column. He just has never had a dominant or even just really, really good WR. If we keep the OL healthy, give Joe a great weapon, and keep OC consistently doing what Joe does best (Play action), He'll go back to peak form. I still think Joe is 100% worth his contract. Without him, we'd probably be starting another Boller or Troy Smith.

I think more and more people start to see this way when they look at game field and scan where the wide receivers are on the field. The receivers on this team have struggled finding separation for years now. Sure Flacco has a boneheaded interception here and there but not much more than the rest of the NFL. The team needs a couple legit redzone threats I feel like the team moved the ball last year but couldn't get touchdowns. I'm surprised the wide receiver coach has kept his job the last few years after this issue hasn't been resolved.

[ravensnick]

2 hours ago, trevorsteadman said:

I think more and more people start to see this way when they look at game field and scan where the wide receivers are on the field. The receivers on this team have struggled finding separation for years now. Sure Flacco has a boneheaded interception here and there but not much more than the rest of the NFL. The team needs a couple legit redzone threats I feel like the team moved the ball last year but couldn't get touchdowns. I'm surprised the wide receiver coach has kept his job the last few years after this issue hasn't been resolved.

Yeah a lot of Flaccos picks are throws where just absolutely no one has any seperation.

[BmoreBird22]

7 hours ago, The Raven said:

Yeah. I second this, but I'll put an emphasis on the conservative play calling. Until Trestman and Marty got here, I never saw any offensive coordinator call so many five yard patterns. I'll also say that, when I was watching the playoffs, I saw a lot of receivers getting YAC. And ya know, I didn't realize how wide spread it was. Lots of teams have receivers that get YAC. Makes me wonder why we don't.

A lot of poor ball placement from Flacco recently could be a massive reason.

[BmoreBird22]

6 hours ago, The Raven said:

I think there's a slight difference. You can be smart but still make risky decisions.

Brett Favre and Andrew Luck are (were) the kings of this. Absolute gunslinger mentality.

[Tank 92]

48 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

A lot of poor ball placement from Flacco recently could be a massive reason.

Or the massive reason could be that the receivers either fall down(Pitta), turn their backs anticipating contact(Wallace, Aiken) or were just old, slow and injured(SSS).

[The Raven]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

A lot of poor ball placement from Flacco recently could be a massive reason.

 

8 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

Or the massive reason could be that the receivers either fall down(Pitta), turn their backs anticipating contact(Wallace, Aiken) or were just old, slow and injured(SSS).

Yeah it's probably both of these

[DomMcRaven]

Speaking of this thread, just finished watching some Flacco highlights on YouTube. Damn near brought a tear to my eye (figuratively of course).

#makeflaccogreatagain2017 

[BmoreBird22]

30 minutes ago, The Raven said:

 

Yeah it's probably both of these

In just too many games this year, placement was extremely high and toward the body. Just not consistently putting it in front of his man.

[BmoreBird22]

39 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

Or the massive reason could be that the receivers either fall down(Pitta), turn their backs anticipating contact(Wallace, Aiken) or were just old, slow and injured(SSS).

Yeah, no fault of Flacco's at all.

[BmoreBird22]

I'd be extremely curious to see if any site has a stat for...

1. YAC for receivers prior/during/after their career as a Raven and

2. Ravens YAC against the rest of the league.

[Tank 92]

7 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Yeah, no fault of Flacco's at all.

lol....ridiculous. Said nothing of the sort and just kept with the theme and exaggerated as you did using the word "massive". But the fact is Pitta consistently falls down while catching the ball, Wallace and Aiken have often been timid in their receptions and SSS was slowed and injured last year. You don't need to see the comparative stats to know that, just need to watch the games. Also a fact that if Flacco had the advantage of having a true play maker or two the "extremely high" and "toward the body" throws you mention would not be as apparent and YAC(and consequently YPC) would be much higher. It's seen all over the league week in and week out, playmakers making plays catching less than perfect throws, running down the field, eluding tacklers.......you know, guys making plays. 

Think the Ravens are actively seeking a playmaker at WR and also hope Perriman, Max, Gillmore, Dixon, etc. pan out and become "that guy". Pretty obvious a QB and offense can't succeed without playmakers. 

 

[BmoreBird22]

5 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

It's seen all over the league week in and week out, playmakers making plays catching less than perfect throws, running down the field, eluding tacklers.......you know, guys making plays. 

Think the Ravens are actively seeking a playmaker at WR and also hope Perriman, Max, Gillmore, Dixon, etc. pan out and become "that guy". Pretty obvious a QB and offense can't succeed without playmakers. 

Let's not act like Flacco has never had absurd plays from his receivers. Wallace's 90 yard TD catch was one of the flukiest touchdowns of the season for the Ravens. SSS made a living of making absurd YAC plays and breaking tackles for the Ravens. He was a menace against the Bengals for this reason.

I'd love to see how someone like Boldin ranked before and after his time in Baltimore. Same for SSS, but compare Newton and Flacco timelines so the prime argument can't be used.

We always talk about not having these amazing playmakers and what not, but much of that falls on the Ravens and Joe. Boldin was one of the most productive receivers in NFL history prior to coming to the Ravens. Perriman was a first round pick for the Ravens. Mike Wallace was incredibly productive for several years with the Steelers and isn't past his prime. 

[Tru11]

So the solution to these extreme high throws is to find Calvin Johnson clones rather then the QB just not throw it that high by fixing his footwork?

 

[BmoreBird22]

3 hours ago, Tru11 said:

So the solution to these extreme high throws is to find Calvin Johnson clones rather then the QB just not throw it that high by fixing his footwork?

 

And the thing is, we all know Joe is capable of being accurate and having good ball placement because he did from 2010-2014. He just hasn't in '15 or '16. Why is that a crime to say?

[Tru11]

2 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

And the thing is, we all know Joe is capable of being accurate and having good ball placement because he did from 2010-2014. He just hasn't in '15 or '16. Why is that a crime to say?

the crime is that it suggest flacco is not perfect.

if its not even his fault that a pass is extremely high then well yeah nothing will ever be his fault...

 

 

 

 

 

[JoeyFlex5]

As one of flaccos biggest supporters I even acknowledge that he needs to learn to hit guys in stride, he really struggles to, although he often hits pitta in stride(chemistry?) and pitta just curls up around the ball and hits he ground, for a guy who is leading the team in receptions and is the one guy flaccos has a great feel for and can hit him in stride, you would really like to see him make better attempts at turning up field, a lot of first downs could've been converted had pitta caught and ran rather than his trademark fadeaway body catch(like the one he failed to stay in bounds against Pitt on a relatively routine catch inside the 5)

but absolutely, flaccos needs to hit guys in stride better, he's got 2 guys that can take any slant to the house and he is always breaking their stride

[Tank 92]

33 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

As one of flaccos biggest supporters I even acknowledge that he needs to learn to hit guys in stride, he really struggles to, although he often hits pitta in stride(chemistry?) and pitta just curls up around the ball and hits he ground, for a guy who is leading the team in receptions and is the one guy flaccos has a great feel for and can hit him in stride, you would really like to see him make better attempts at turning up field, a lot of first downs could've been converted had pitta caught and ran rather than his trademark fadeaway body catch(like the one he failed to stay in bounds against Pitt on a relatively routine catch inside the 5)

but absolutely, flaccos needs to hit guys in stride better, he's got 2 guys that can take any slant to the house and he is always breaking their stride

Exactly, and I think you hit the nail on the head when you mention "chemistry", or simply knowing where a receiver will be when. And I also think at times that Is a two way street where the receiver needs to be accurate and consistent in his route running. 

[redrum52]

1 hour ago, Tank 92 said:

Exactly, and I think you hit the nail on the head when you mention "chemistry", or simply knowing where a receiver will be when. And I also think at times that Is a two way street where the receiver needs to be accurate and consistent in his route running. 

So Pitta(maybe Mason) are basically the only ones who can run routes correctly each time for Joe's career?  

 

I could be wrong, but I doubt Boldin and Steve were poor route runners yet still would have to adjust for the ball.  I'll give you Jacoby, Torrey, Perriman and a few others.  In your boys defense, it seems like everything can't ever work at the same time, which is what made the SB so special, to me.  It wasn't that they played above their potential, but just showed what they are easily capable of, for a CONSISTENT stretch.

[Tru11]

18 minutes ago, redrum52 said:

So Pitta(maybe Mason) are basically the only ones who can run routes correctly each time for Joe's career?  

 

I could be wrong, but I doubt Boldin and Steve were poor route runners yet still would have to adjust for the ball.  I'll give you Jacoby, Torrey, Perriman and a few others.  In your boys defense, it seems like everything can't ever work at the same time, which is what made the SB so special, to me.  It wasn't that they played above their potential, but just showed what they are easily capable of, for a CONSISTENT stretch.

there really is no excuse for the players not being on the same page and not having chemistry TBH.

 

 

 

[redrum52]

1 minute ago, Tru11 said:

there really is no excuse for the players not being on the same page and not having chemistry TBH.

 

 

 

True

[OUravensfan]

On 2/23/2017 at 7:06 PM, BmoreBird22 said:

Let's not act like Flacco has never had absurd plays from his receivers. Wallace's 90 yard TD catch was one of the flukiest touchdowns of the season for the Ravens. SSS made a living of making absurd YAC plays and breaking tackles for the Ravens. He was a menace against the Bengals for this reason.

I'd love to see how someone like Boldin ranked before and after his time in Baltimore. Same for SSS, but compare Newton and Flacco timelines so the prime argument can't be used.

We always talk about not having these amazing playmakers and what not, but much of that falls on the Ravens and Joe. Boldin was one of the most productive receivers in NFL history prior to coming to the Ravens. Perriman was a first round pick for the Ravens. Mike Wallace was incredibly productive for several years with the Steelers and isn't past his prime. 

SSS played better under Flacco than Newton, if he didn't get hurt in 2015 he was looking at multiple career highs. Wallace is what he always has been, a one trick pony #2 ceiling type guy. As for Perriman, draft position doesn't automatically mean he will be good, I want him to excel but so far he has been the reason for his own shortcomings dropping a lot of great passes, several TDs. 

[Tank 92]

33 minutes ago, OUravensfan said:

SSS played better under Flacco than Newton, if he didn't get hurt in 2015 he was looking at multiple career highs. Wallace is what he always has been, a one trick pony #2 ceiling type guy. As for Perriman, draft position doesn't automatically mean he will be good, I want him to excel but so far he has been the reason for his own shortcomings dropping a lot of great passes, several TDs. 

Let's not forget about all of those great receivers that have left Bmore over the last 9 years and went on to be much better with other QBs like......like......  You get the picture.  haha