Bad Pass Rush or Bad Scheme?

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

Why did Dean Pees get the boot from the Pats? Does anybody have any stats from his time there 2006-2009? Did Belicheck get sick of blowing 4th Quarter leads as well?

Need a statmaster to answer this question.Anybody?

[hen826957]

In order for Dean Pees scheme to work they need a legitimately top corners. We see as when Jimmy goes down the entire defense is bad. Ozzie needs some big talented corners in the offseason or this defense will crumble again in Pees scheme. 

[BmoreBird22]

41 minutes ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

Why did Dean Pees get the boot from the Pats? Does anybody have any stats from his time there 2006-2009? Did Belicheck get sick of blowing 4th Quarter leads as well?

Need a statmaster to answer this question.Anybody?

He didn't get the boot. His contract expired and they mutually parted ways. I hear BB is a real hard butt to work for (Nike Saban said his time with the Browns was hell), so could be that Pees didn't want to return to an environment like that at his age.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

http://russellstreetreport.com/2015/10/13/street-talk/the-dean-pees-horrow-story/

[Willbacker]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/326200-pees-to-step-down-as-pats-defensive-coordinator

Seemed like the last year he was there his defense blew some big leads but overall like he does here he has some top rated defenses. He just has troubles protecting a lead which is very concerning. I also have my doubts about him leaving on his own will but I cant prove it. Cant get any info on just 4th qtr collapses but I wasn't happy we didn't coffin corner kick him right out the door.

[RaineV1]

2 hours ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

Why did Dean Pees get the boot from the Pats? Does anybody have any stats from his time there 2006-2009? Did Belicheck get sick of blowing 4th Quarter leads as well?

Need a statmaster to answer this question.Anybody?

 

Here's a solid opinion piece on Pees leaving New England that brings up some of the stats: http://www.patspulpit.com/2010/1/14/1251972/time-for-a-house-cleaning-patriots

They were 11th in total defense. However they had the habit of not closing games, and collapsing against important opponents. Against Indy the Pats had a 31-14 lead in the 4th quarter, and the Colts came back to win that. This sounds exactly like what's been happening with the Ravens. Good stat line for the defense, but not showing up when its needed most.

It's kind of funny seeing the comments on that post, like one person saying it looked good at times but the defense just lacked the intensity it to used to have.

Edited January 14 by RaineV1

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

18 hours ago, RaineV1 said:

 

Here's a solid opinion piece on Pees leaving New England that brings up some of the stats: http://www.patspulpit.com/2010/1/14/1251972/time-for-a-house-cleaning-patriots

They were 11th in total defense. However they had the habit of not closing games, and collapsing against important opponents. Against Indy the Pats had a 31-14 lead in the 4th quarter, and the Colts came back to win that. This sounds exactly like what's been happening with the Ravens. Good stat line for the defense, but not showing up when its needed most.

It's kind of funny seeing the comments on that post, like one person saying it looked good at times but the defense just lacked the intensity it to used to have.

Wow, Pees history does repeat itself with blown 4th quarter leads. He loves that prevent zone with a lead, only to give it back easily and ultimately the game. How can you keep doing the same thing, and expect different results? 

I was super pissed to see Leslie Frazier go, thought he would be the logical replacement, but I guess Harbs will go down with these 4th quarter failures.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

Phil Simms just said, "The Patriots Offense is designed to pick apart Zone Defenses". 

That, along with the fact that NE has been in the Afc Championship game the last 6 years, means if we ever get out of our own way and are lucky enough to get there again, it will most likely be vs the Pats.

Kniwing that to be true, WHAT ARE WE DOING ON DEFENSE TO IMPROVE? Same DC, same Scheme, and More ZONE? 

 

[jazz1988]

On 1/14/2017 at 2:36 PM, Willbacker said:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/326200-pees-to-step-down-as-pats-defensive-coordinator

Seemed like the last year he was there his defense blew some big leads but overall like he does here he has some top rated defenses. He just has troubles protecting a lead which is very concerning. I also have my doubts about him leaving on his own will but I cant prove it. Cant get any info on just 4th qtr collapses but I wasn't happy we didn't coffin corner kick him right out the door.

 

You also have to take in consideration that The Patriots was drafting terrible defensive talent.There not a defensive player right now on that team beside Patrick Chung who was around during Dean Pees time as their The Patriots defensive coordinator. Most their high drafted picks that were defensive players were cut.

[PurpleCity5]

4 hours ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

Phil Simms just said, "The Patriots Offense is designed to pick apart Zone Defenses". 

That, along with the fact that NE has been in the Afc Championship game the last 6 years, means if we ever get out of our own way and are lucky enough to get there again, it will most likely be vs the Pats.

Kniwing that to be true, WHAT ARE WE DOING ON DEFENSE TO IMPROVE? Same DC, same Scheme, and More ZONE? 

 

We play plenty of man coverage, I don't think the issue is completely the simply with our zone coverage, there were times where we played man coverage and got burnt. 

Pees sends A-Gap pressure at times and when guys don't hit home, the secondary gets slaughtered. Jimmy Smith being out also had a huge impact because now you're forced to send Weddle/Webb back in single-high safety coverage and shift Orr/Mosley to more coverage packages. With Jimmy healthy, we've actually been better at zone coverage than man coverage because of how we are able to play our LBs from sideline to sideline and diagnose plays. 

One criticism that I hear about Pees is that he needs to be more creative with the pressure he schemes up and I agree with that to a point. I think the game against the Bills was his best as a play caller because he clicked on all cylinders whether it was coverage or pressure schemes. He was creative with his pressure against Buffalo, Jets, Steelers(@Home), and Dolphins by sending disguising pressure through sending defensive backs on blitz schemes which surprises plenty of teams we played. He also confused plenty of teams constantly by adding stunts and twists. He needs to consistently confuse teams protection schemes. 

I think the zone is very ideal for us. Webb and Weddle are good tacklers in the backfield, as is Mosley. The team played with plenty of discipline this year, early in the season with Jimmy healthy we put out a top 5 secondary and I honestly have to say that we didn't get much out of our #2 and #4 CBs with Jimmy and Young being the only guys who can play at CB. 

Edited January 23 by PurpleCity5

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

I've said it previously. Scheme isn't the issue. We couldn't rush the passer at all and are thin on depth in the secondary. Both are critical areas we must address. 

 

Here's what I expect to happen, not necessarily in order. 

1. A new edge rusher. I think Judon is the future at one of them. 

2. A new interior rusher. I was pushing hard for a Sheldon Day type player. We got Kaufausi, who I have a lot of hopes for, but I think we better draft one just in case. 

3. A slot CB. This one will be picked up in FA. A Darius Butler or something. A guy who is capable doesn't have to be a stud. Just better than Powers. 

4. Depth on the outside. Maybe a Sidney Jones type?

[trevorsteadman]

On 1/22/2017 at 6:11 PM, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

Phil Simms just said, "The Patriots Offense is designed to pick apart Zone Defenses". 

That, along with the fact that NE has been in the Afc Championship game the last 6 years, means if we ever get out of our own way and are lucky enough to get there again, it will most likely be vs the Pats.

Kniwing that to be true, WHAT ARE WE DOING ON DEFENSE TO IMPROVE? Same DC, same Scheme, and More ZONE? 

 

Honestly if the Patriots didn't get that deep 70 yard pass when Elam slipped and Weddle didn't read it correctly, the game is tied 23-23.

That was with Jimmy Smith not on the field for 3 quarters.

Zone works fine. I think more than anything is the fear every team has playing the Patriots. The Steelers looked like they were going to wet themselves 2 minutes into Sundays game.

The Ravens are lucky they play well against the Patriots. The Steelers will likely never get over that hump. They get slaughtered each time they play New England. Big Ben's only hope for another Super Bowl is if Brady retires or the Patriots get upset in the divisional round. 

The Ravens were #1 in the league on defense until Jimmy Smith went out and likely would've stayed there if he wasn't out the rest of the season. But the Ravens still finished 7th and were #1 in the league in interceptions even when the pass rush ranked 24th in the league.

Sounds like it is working to me. Just need key players to stay healthy and get better quality depth. 

[rossihunter2]

4 hours ago, trevorsteadman said:

Honestly if the Patriots didn't get that deep 70 yard pass when Elam slipped and Weddle didn't read it correctly, the game is tied 23-23.

That was with Jimmy Smith not on the field for 3 quarters.

Zone works fine. I think more than anything is the fear every team has playing the Patriots. The Steelers looked like they were going to wet themselves 2 minutes into Sundays game.

The Ravens are lucky they play well against the Patriots. The Steelers will likely never get over that hump. They get slaughtered each time they play New England. Big Ben's only hope for another Super Bowl is if Brady retires or the Patriots get upset in the divisional round. 

The Ravens were #1 in the league on defense until Jimmy Smith went out and likely would've stayed there if he wasn't out the rest of the season. But the Ravens still finished 7th and were #1 in the league in interceptions even when the pass rush ranked 24th in the league.

Sounds like it is working to me. Just need key players to stay healthy and get better quality depth. 

it makes me feel like we are maybe 1 or two pieces away from being dominant on defense - we've lost orr (and i feel like that loss is a little underrated) and we will probably lose brandon williams but there's hopefully players to fill the void given we have two defensive tackles we drafted in the last couple of years that we seem to like (+ michael pierce and timmy jernigan)

if one or two defensive linemen step up and we grab maybe another corner and an edge guy we could really become a great defense

the problem is obviously that if you concentrate those high picks on defense you may end up with holes on the offensive line and in the wr corps all over again

[PurpleCity5]

8 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

it makes me feel like we are maybe 1 or two pieces away from being dominant on defense - we've lost orr (and i feel like that loss is a little underrated) and we will probably lose brandon williams but there's hopefully players to fill the void given we have two defensive tackles we drafted in the last couple of years that we seem to like (+ michael pierce and timmy jernigan)

if one or two defensive linemen step up and we grab maybe another corner and an edge guy we could really become a great defense

the problem is obviously that if you concentrate those high picks on defense you may end up with holes on the offensive line and in the wr corps all over again

I think losing Orr will hurt, the Ravens will probably put a new guy in a J.A.G role. Orr was intended for that role, but damn did he play way too good to be labeled as that, I think Jimmy Smith staying healthy will be a key element in not forcing the 2nd linebacker into a whole lot of coverage. 
I feel the same way about the defense though, I think we're a #2 CB and impact Pass Rusher away from being a top 3 defense. I honestly have to say that there were no elite defenses this year. Vikings, Broncos, and Seahawks all had moments when they got destroyed. I don't think there was a dominant/elite defense this year.

Edited January 25 by PurpleCity5

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

On 1/23/2017 at 0:37 AM, PurpleCity5 said:

We play plenty of man coverage, I don't think the issue is completely the simply with our zone coverage, there were times where we played man coverage and got burnt. 

Pees sends A-Gap pressure at times and when guys don't hit home, the secondary gets slaughtered. Jimmy Smith being out also had a huge impact because now you're forced to send Weddle/Webb back in single-high safety coverage and shift Orr/Mosley to more coverage packages. With Jimmy healthy, we've actually been better at zone coverage than man coverage because of how we are able to play our LBs from sideline to sideline and diagnose plays. 

One criticism that I hear about Pees is that he needs to be more creative with the pressure he schemes up and I agree with that to a point. I think the game against the Bills was his best as a play caller because he clicked on all cylinders whether it was coverage or pressure schemes. He was creative with his pressure against Buffalo, Jets, Steelers(@Home), and Dolphins by sending disguising pressure through sending defensive backs on blitz schemes which surprises plenty of teams we played. He also confused plenty of teams constantly by adding stunts and twists. He needs to consistently confuse teams protection schemes. 

I think the zone is very ideal for us. Webb and Weddle are good tacklers in the backfield, as is Mosley. The team played with plenty of discipline this year, early in the season with Jimmy healthy we put out a top 5 secondary and I honestly have to say that we didn't get much out of our #2 and #4 CBs with Jimmy and Young being the only guys who can play at CB. 

The zone has not been ideal for us in the 4th quarter, it has prevented wins. You cant fix a problem, if you are in denial that you have one. 

Even with Jimmy back there, we have faltered in the 4th quarter, vs NE, the zone has not been able to stop Brady, and an even bigger problem has been not being able to stop AJ Green, just to be able to get a crack at Brady down the road. 

Imho, keeping the same philosophy, and scheme will be keeping the same results, I really hate that Leslie Frazier is not our DC right now, he would have helped us bigtime, now we will have to wait and see if doing the same thing with the same people, will net us different results.