Bad Pass Rush or Bad Scheme?

[Rav'n Maniac]

Bad pass rush or bad scheme? Can't it be both?

[Perfekt]

Yes I agree it could be a mix of both.

[rmcjacket23]

21 hours ago, Perfekt said:

@trevorsteadman I will agree those things factor in but look at the body of work as a whole. It has been this way since 2013 when he took over the DC spot.

Yeah you definitely might want to research the 2014 defense quite a bit...

[ALPHA]

1 hour ago, Static said:

Nice try but there was no coverage at all last year 

I don't think you understand what coverage sacks are.

[RavensDieHard21]

I've disliked pees a lot from time to time but his schemes to stop the run and get pressure are creative and exotic, but the players have inconsistently executed them. His secondary use is horrendous though. We killed it in 14' and most of 16', but guess what the problem was? Injuries. We need another corner to pair with Jimmy and Tavon. We land a Sidney Jones or Quincy Wilson and we will literally be able to get a ton of coverage sacks. Or at least be less liable when we send in exotic blitzes. 

[The Raven]

Bad pressure. When you don't win one on ones, it doesn't matter what the call is.

[Perfekt]

I remember 2014 and we did have a pass rush but only because everyone was trying to kill our secondary. I think with how well the offense was playing it made it easier to stay fresh thus look like more of a pass rush then what it was. Plus we still had Ngata then as well and Dumervile was on the decline as he is now.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Perfekt

[mmcclend]

On 12/27/2016 at 1:18 PM, Tru11 said:

if your 4 rushers cant beat their 5 blockers , you are in trouble.

if their 3 rushers can beat your 5 blockers , you are also in trouble.

you can scheme all you want, in the end its the players who need to get it done.

This is sooooo true. And it looks like we rarely "pinned our ears back" this season. On pass plays we'd stalemate the OL like it was a run play. This is why we saw so many qbs have 5-6-7 seconds to throw. How do you win like that?

[ALPHA]

12 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

This is sooooo true. And it looks like we rarely "pinned our ears back" this season. On pass plays we'd stalemate the OL like it was a run play. This is why we saw so many qbs have 5-6-7 seconds to throw. How do you win like that?

A lot of it is guys getting worn down, constant 3 and outs don't help but there are some guys who are obviously running on fumes and not being substituted. We need to work on that too (and probably won't).

Edited December 28, 2016 by ALPHA

[Moderator 3]

1 hour ago, ALPHA said:

A lot of it is guys getting worn down, constant 3 and outs don't help but there are some guys who are obviously running on fumes and not being substituted. We need to work on that too (and probably won't).

Myth.  We consistently won TOP this year.

[ALPHA]

6 hours ago, Moderator 3 said:

Myth.  We consistently won TOP this year.

We're 22nd in the league in first downs. 

[Cillmatic]

Our top pass rushers were Suggs, Dumervil and Albert. That's not gonna get you far in 2016.

[ravensdfan]

On 12/27/2016 at 7:25 PM, JoeyFlex5 said:

I'm not the biggest pees supporter but I always have and always will say he is brilliant with the front seven. It wasn't the scheme, suggs played heavy and lethargic and doom played weak and always got nudged past the pocket. He called pressure often on the last drive and it wasn't getting home and then our dbs weren't covering. 

We had a tendency this year like always, to change the game plan at the end. But that wasn't the case Sunday night. Ben just had one of his trademark drives and our guys weren't in position.

It wasn't "a drive". It was 21 pts. in the 4th quarter. Certainly some of that is lack of execution but defensive collapses in the 4th is not a new thing since Pees came here. 21 pts. They could not even hold them to a FG with only 78 seconds remaining. There is definitely fault at the feet of the coordinator when something like this is a trend and not an anomaly. Every Ravens' fan groaned when the offense scored - because everyone of them KNEW this defense wouldn't hold and they'd left Pitt too much time. What does that tell you? That this sort of defensive collapse is now an expected thing.

Five seasons of this - five. Different players have come and gone (some have moved on to have success after being called failures and taking the blame for Pees). At some point, the truth has to be admitted - the only common denominator is Pees.

Edited December 29, 2016 by ravensdfan

[Gtown Purple]

I blame the players more than the scheme. There was no pressure whatsoever. PIT OL scored way high on PFF and was one of the top 5 lines of the week. We simply got beasted.

[rudywasoffsides]

I would be ecstatic if we moved on from Pees and promoted Leslie Frazier. I think he would be a fantastic D coordinator for us

[JoeyFlex5]

1 minute ago, rudywasoffsides said:

I would be ecstatic if we moved on from Pees and promoted Leslie Frazier. I think he would be a fantastic D coordinator for us

I think the 2 of them together make an excellent coaching staff. There's more to it than just the dc. Pees has shown downright brilliance with the front seven but the secondary has always been his weakness and I think weddle and Frazier are the reason the secondary was so vastly improved this year. There's better communication and cohesion back there due to those 2.

[Rav'n Maniac]

2 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I think the 2 of them together make an excellent coaching staff.

Spot on! The only difficulties that Pees had this year was a weak passrush and the injury to his #1 CB. Those two things were the only reason he had to change his scheme during games and forced him into his "Peesvent" defense. Fix the passrush and get 1 more shutdown corner solves all his issues.

[BmoreBird22]

18 hours ago, Moderator 3 said:

Myth.  We consistently won TOP this year.

Well, that doesn't tell the whole story. The Ravens can have a three minute drive and get one first down, but punt. The opponent then proceeds to get a first play touchdown. Who has the better ToP?

[ravensdfan]

14 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Well, that doesn't tell the whole story. The Ravens can have a three minute drive and get one first down, but punt. The opponent then proceeds to get a first play touchdown. Who has the better ToP?

That has what to do with the worn down, tired excuse? If the other team is getting a one play TD, then the defense is still not worn down and tired are they? Besides, the opposite has been true for the most part. The defense is giving up 7,8,9 minute drives.

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, ravensdfan said:

That has what to do with the worn down, tired excuse? If the other team is getting a one play TD, then the defense is still not worn down and tired are they? Besides, the opposite has been true for the most part. The defense is giving up 7,8,9 minute drives.

Let's say the ToP is at 19:00 for the Ravens and 21:00 for the opponent and the Ravens take a drive for 4:00 and the opponent does for 0:03. Well, now the Ravens are up in ToP. 

Do you see why this isn't exactly a good barometer?

[BmoreBird22]

It's bad pass rush. At one point on the final drive, I saw Jernigan, Suggs, and Judon (also maybe Doom) on the field at the same time. That's your top three to four pass rushers. You should be able to win with just them. 

The outside edge rushers got pushed way wide of the pocket and Jernigan pushed inside and right past Ben. 

Ben stepped up and had like five or six seconds to make a big pass. 

I think the play ended with a quarterback hit by Judon, but how does that even happen that you can't send your best three or four guys at the same time and expect them to win? That's a huge handicap.

[ravensdfan]

3 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Let's say the ToP is at 19:00 for the Ravens and 21:00 for the opponent and the Ravens take a drive for 4:00 and the opponent does for 0:03. Well, now the Ravens are up in ToP. 

Do you see why this isn't exactly a good barometer?

But the statement was that the defense was tired & worn down. If they're on the field for 3 seconds, they still aren't tired and worn down are they?

Perhaps the offense is tired and worn down from watching the defense piss away 4th quarter leads, ever think of that?

 

 

[BmoreBird22]

9 minutes ago, ravensdfan said:

But the statement was that the defense was tired & worn down. If they're on the field for 3 seconds, they still aren't tired and worn down are they?

Perhaps the offense is tired and worn down from watching the defense piss away 4th quarter leads, ever think of that?

How many fourth quarter leads were blown this season? Three; two without Jimmy Smith.

And I knew you'd miss the entire point, which is that the end ToP numbers do not matter one bit. You have to look at individual portions of the game to determine whether or not the defense or offense was worn down at a particular point in time. Also, consider 300 lb lineman wear down very quickly, so the hurry up offense may make a drive go quickly, but those lineman aren't getting subbed out and getting a break on an individual drive.

Basically, it's a weak argument and really has no basis.

[ravensdfan]

Three? Yeah, no lol

Oakland

Giants

Patriots

Steelers

We held the lead in all those games in the 4th quarter. And that is just the losses.

Jaguars, we won.

And I guess we're not counting the Eagles' game that if it meant anything at all to them they'd have kicked the EP for the tie.

 

[BmoreBird22]

6 minutes ago, ravensdfan said:

Three? Yeah, no lol

Oakland

Giants

Patriots

Steelers

We held the lead in all those games in the 4th quarter. And that is just the losses.

Jaguars, we won.

And I guess we're not counting the Eagles' game that if it meant anything at all to them they'd have kicked the EP for the tie.

 

The Ravens never held a lead against the Patriots... ever.

And again, two games without Jimmy and two games against top 5 offenses, two offenses with top 5 receivers.

Edited December 29, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[ravensdfan]

12 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

The Ravens never held a lead against the Patriots... ever.

And again, two games without Jimmy and two games against top 5 offenses, two offenses with top 5 receivers.

I'm sorry, you're correct. We simply tied the game up and promptly let them march down the field. My mistake but really supports my argument and not yours.

Ah so now we've moved beyond the "Jimmy was out" excuse to include any offense worth anything. Exactly. Which means they are NOT performing.

Edited December 29, 2016 by ravensdfan

[AsianRice]

With 2017 draft, top pick should be pass rush and then CB then WR

 

[ravensdfan]

On 12/28/2016 at 9:29 AM, rmcjacket23 said:

Yeah you definitely might want to research the 2014 defense quite a bit...

Yep 2014 was the best year regarding the lack of 4th quarter collapses. Know what else was true that year? A fairly potent offense. Which is what I've been saying about Pees forever - better give the offense the love because they'd best be scoring with his 4th quarter D. Still, that is one season out of five.

[BmoreBird22]

19 minutes ago, ravensdfan said:

I'm sorry, you're correct. We simply tied the game up and promptly let them march down the field. My mistake but really supports my argument and not yours.

Ah so now we've moved beyond the "Jimmy was out" excuse to include any offense worth anything. Exactly. Which means they are NOT performing.

No, never tied it, either...

And anyone who watched the Patriots game knows it wasn't even close. The defense forces two three and outs and the offense responds with... a safety. The defense then forced a punt and the offense responded by... punting. I'm not pinning it on the offense, but it was a horrible game from the entire team, not a defensive collapse. The Ravens were very fortunate for two Patriots turnovers in the red zone or the game wouldn't even be close at all.

I mean, no, not really. It's just that you have two games in which Jimmy was out and in two of those, the defense faced a top 5 WR (OBJ, Brown). Plus, there were two games against a top 5 offense. I don't understand why people don't expect a play maker to make a play. 

[Perfekt]

I feel like the times when Jimmy was out you knew the other team was going to attack through the air. We some how always let teams get past us on the back end while the defensive front gets no push. We have not had a elite defense under Pees and 2014 defense sounds a lot better now when we were going through it. The offense carried them that year for sure. I am not going to say the defense wasn't good this year but they could have been great if we schemed better. Stop trying to make square pegs fit into round holes.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Perfekt