State of the Ravens going into 2017

[Virginia 55]

18 hours ago, The Raven said:

Considering Brandon Williams looked like a backup for the past four games, and Rick Wagner has been our best offensive lineman for most of the year, yes.

Williams has not earned the contract he will be offered. Rick Wagner has.

You do know that Brandon Williams is anchoring one of the best defensive units in football right? So explain to me how a guy that has to get doubled on almost every play is not earning his contract.

We could stand losing Wagner and a host of offensive weapons, because they are borderline terrible on that side of the ball anyway.  

 

 Keep the defense together. Or we will regress again this year.   If you pick perhaps another player like Doom instead, i could agree with you. Because I actually like Wagner, he's decent. 

Definitely don't let Williams walk.  

 

[Virginia 55]

State of the Ravens!!!!!  

 

 

Deflate Joe Flacco's Contract !!!!!!

[rmw10]

32 minutes ago, Virginia 55 said:

You do know that Brandon Williams is anchoring one of the best defensive units in football right? So explain to me how a guy that has to get doubled on almost every play is not earning his contract.

We could stand losing Wagner and a host of offensive weapons, because they are borderline terrible on that side of the ball anyway.  

 

 Keep the defense together. Or we will regress again this year.   If you pick perhaps another player like Doom instead, i could agree with you. Because I actually like Wagner, he's decent. 

Definitely don't let Williams walk.  

 

Beyond Williams just not playing well recently, I just don't know if it's the best way to spend the money.  You're probably going to have to do the 80/20 rule at either NT or RT.  Based on your options, NT makes the most sense.  You have Pierce that you have to hope can step in.  At RT, you have Lewis, but if you move him that just opens up another hole at G.

Trust me, I'd love to keep Williams despite his recent struggles.  At the end of the day though, you have to make business decisions and letting him walk looks like it might be the move.

[The Raven]

1 hour ago, Virginia 55 said:

You do know that Brandon Williams is anchoring one of the best defensive units in football right? So explain to me how a guy that has to get doubled on almost every play is not earning his contract.

We could stand losing Wagner and a host of offensive weapons, because they are borderline terrible on that side of the ball anyway.  

 

 Keep the defense together. Or we will regress again this year.   If you pick perhaps another player like Doom instead, i could agree with you. Because I actually like Wagner, he's decent. 

Definitely don't let Williams walk.  

 

Brandon Williams was driven five yards downfield on one man blocks by the Patriots and by the Eagles. I haven't seen him regularly double teamed in quite some time. That doesn't happen to supposedly top five nose tackles.

He will be overpaid by some other team. It it not in our best interest to overpay a run stuffing defensive tackle that doesn't command double teams nor provide anything resembling a pass rush. It's 2016, not 1916. We need someone who can do more than be big.

I know the Ravens PR machine likes to make it look like Williams is always doubled, but it has become increasingly rare in recent weeks. Instead of doubling Williams, guards are going straight up to linebackers. I don't know why, but Williams has been mediocre for the past month.

By the way, were you ever going to respond to my question in the Flacco thread about Joe's giant cap hit, if we were to cut him? You seem to have ignored it.

[Tank 92]

9 minutes ago, The Raven said:

Brandon Williams was driven five yards downfield on one man blocks by the Patriots and by the Eagles. I haven't seen him regularly double teamed in quite some time. That doesn't happen to supposedly top five nose tackles.

He will be overpaid by some other team. It it not in our best interest to overpay a run stuffing defensive tackle that doesn't command double teams nor provide anything resembling a pass rush. It's 2016, not 1916. We need someone who can do more than be big.

I know the Ravens PR machine likes to make it look like Williams is always doubled, but it has become increasingly rare in recent weeks. Instead of doubling Williams, guards are going straight up to linebackers. I don't know why, but Williams has been mediocre for the past month.

By the way, were you ever going to respond to my question in the Flacco thread about Joe's giant cap hit, if we were to cut him? You seem to have ignored it.

Given any thought to the possibility that he has been playing injured the past few weeks?

[rmcjacket23]

2 hours ago, Virginia 55 said:

You do know that Brandon Williams is anchoring one of the best defensive units in football right? So explain to me how a guy that has to get doubled on almost every play is not earning his contract.

We could stand losing Wagner and a host of offensive weapons, because they are borderline terrible on that side of the ball anyway.  

 

 Keep the defense together. Or we will regress again this year.   If you pick perhaps another player like Doom instead, i could agree with you. Because I actually like Wagner, he's decent. 

Definitely don't let Williams walk.  

 

1. Williams is only playing about 50-60% of the defensive snaps, so he's not anchoring anything. He's an outstanding run stopper, but he's also not on the field nearly as often as you or anybody else thinks he is.

2. In a normal 3-4 defense, where your pass rushers are primarily OLBs, the NT is largely expected to take on double teams. Thats pretty much his job. Its not a testament to him being good... its a foundation of the defense we run. Plus, as others have said, he's NOT getting double teamed on every play.

3. If we keep the defense together, you'll be left with an inferior pass rush and no depth in the secondary, which is precisely what we had this year. The defense was good, even great at times, but its certainly not perfect and merely retaining the same players won't get it done.

4. I'm not opposed to resigning Williams at the right price, but he's not the kind of player I throw a blank check at. Same applies with Wagner.

Wagner will be significantly cheaper and if there's one unit on the team that you would largely want to keep together, its the offensive line. If you can bring back Stanley, Lewis, Yanda and Wagner, and get an upgrade at Center, you're looking at a top tier OL based on what I saw.

Much, much more important than retaining a run-stopping NT, no matter how good he is. Also, note that Michael Pierce played pretty well this season also, and I think he could play that role in a pinch.

[Ravens419]

For what we ask of our NT the price Brandon Williams will come at isn't worth it Michael pierce is plenty big enough and athletic enough to do what we ask of our NT

[Ravenseconbeast]

SMH on criticism of Brandon Williams.  

He is one of best interior lineman out there.  

Please stop with the nonsense.  Its just a matter of money.  If he goes K.O. on us, he'll find another team. We will always offer a fair deal, but it is what it is. Simple as that.

[Gtown Purple]

3 hours ago, Cawtious said:

TJ Lang is entering free agency.  He would be a great pickup.  Question is could we afford him?

Depends on how much he wants. We paid Yanda so probably can't afford major dough to another interior lineman. Thats why KO and Grubbs both got away.

[Gtown Purple]

2 hours ago, Virginia 55 said:

State of the Ravens!!!!!  

 

 

Deflate Joe Flacco's Contract !!!!!!

You and everyone else here knows that isn't going to happen.

[balfan23]

1 minute ago, Gtown Purple said:

You and everyone else here knows that isn't going to happen.

I know ...  some people just seem to plug their ears when they are told something they don't want to hear.

[balfan23]

9 minutes ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

SMH on criticism of Brandon Williams.  

He is one of best interior lineman out there.  

Please stop with the nonsense.  Its just a matter of money.  If he goes K.O. on us, he'll find another team. We will always offer a fair deal, but it is what it is. Simple as that.

To be expected. I think there is very little chance we are able to retain him and I think many others feel that way. So they are trying to marginalize his contribution in order to not feel that we're taking a hit. That said ... I agree with the sentiment that a run stuffing rotational NT is not a place where you need to expend big money. IMO, Williams is a very solid player, but isn't a game changing play maker. We have very limited resources and I just don't see anyway we match what other teams will offer. 

What surprises me more is the confidence that Pierce is going to just step in and be the poor man's Williams. Have we really seen enough of him to have confidence that he'll be able to fill that void without a significant drop off in performance? I don't think so. Perhaps it will work, but it feels like a significant gamble - but one we may unfortunately have to take. 

[ellicottraven]

12 minutes ago, balfan23 said:

To be expected. I think there is very little chance we are able to retain him and I think many others feel that way. So they are trying to marginalize his contribution in order to not feel that we're taking a hit. That said ... I agree with the sentiment that a run stuffing rotational NT is not a place where you need to expend big money. IMO, Williams is a very solid player, but isn't a game changing play maker. We have very limited resources and I just don't see anyway we match what other teams will offer. 

What surprises me more is the confidence that Pierce is going to just step in and be the poor man's Williams. Have we really seen enough of him to have confidence that he'll be able to fill that void without a significant drop off in performance? I don't think so. Perhaps it will work, but it feels like a significant gamble - but one we may unfortunately have to take. 

I think between Davis, Henry, Jernigan and Pierce, we'll have to make do if Williams isn't resigned or opts to chase money which is his right.

[rmw10]

16 minutes ago, balfan23 said:

To be expected. I think there is very little chance we are able to retain him and I think many others feel that way. So they are trying to marginalize his contribution in order to not feel that we're taking a hit. That said ... I agree with the sentiment that a run stuffing rotational NT is not a place where you need to expend big money. IMO, Williams is a very solid player, but isn't a game changing play maker. We have very limited resources and I just don't see anyway we match what other teams will offer. 

What surprises me more is the confidence that Pierce is going to just step in and be the poor man's Williams. Have we really seen enough of him to have confidence that he'll be able to fill that void without a significant drop off in performance? I don't think so. Perhaps it will work, but it feels like a significant gamble - but one we may unfortunately have to take. 

I really would love to keep Williams, but as mentioned above, I just don't think it's in the best interest of the team going forward.  There's an inherent risk to asking Pierce to step up, but I'd rather take my chances there than on the OL.  It's an unfortunate part of the business, but chances are, we're going to have to pick 1 to prioritize.  I'd much rather it be the OL, despite how much I want Williams.  If we choose Williams over Wagner, you then likely have Lewis sliding out to RT, and opening a hole at G.  Furthermore, I'm much more confident in this team developing another DL like we have so many times before.

Edited December 29, 2016 by rmw10

[Prophet93]

Our O-line has played extremely well this past month. Keeping them together by resigning Wagner is the best move in my opinion. Also, if we lose Williams, we likely get a 3rd round comp pick for him. Given his likely price tag, I doubt he stays, unfortunately.

[balfan23]

17 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I really would love to keep Williams, but as mentioned above, I just don't think it's in the best interest of the team going forward.  There's an inherent risk to asking Pierce to step up, but I'd rather take my chances there than on the OL.  It's an unfortunate part of the business, but chances are, we're going to have to pick 1 to prioritize.  I'd much rather it be the OL, despite how much I want Williams.  If we choose Williams over Wagner, you then likely have Lewis sliding out to RT, and opening a hole at G.  Furthermore, I'm much more confident in this team developing another DL like we have so many times before.

Oh - I agree completely. Wagner is priority #1 FA for us this offseason, not Williams. 

[redrum52]

20 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I really would love to keep Williams, but as mentioned above, I just don't think it's in the best interest of the team going forward.  There's an inherent risk to asking Pierce to step up, but I'd rather take my chances there than on the OL.  It's an unfortunate part of the business, but chances are, we're going to have to pick 1 to prioritize.  I'd much rather it be the OL, despite how much I want Williams.  If we choose Williams over Wagner, you then likely have Lewis sliding out to RT, and opening a hole at G.  Furthermore, I'm much more confident in this team developing another DL like we have so many times before.

I only approve of letting him walk if there is serious consideration of bringing in another guy with the money.  Whether it's a CB, OLB, OL or WR, just bring in a damn playmaker if we let him walk.

[The Raven]

2 hours ago, balfan23 said:

To be expected. I think there is very little chance we are able to retain him and I think many others feel that way. So they are trying to marginalize his contribution in order to not feel that we're taking a hit. That said ... I agree with the sentiment that a run stuffing rotational NT is not a place where you need to expend big money. IMO, Williams is a very solid player, but isn't a game changing play maker. We have very limited resources and I just don't see anyway we match what other teams will offer. 

What surprises me more is the confidence that Pierce is going to just step in and be the poor man's Williams. Have we really seen enough of him to have confidence that he'll be able to fill that void without a significant drop off in performance? I don't think so. Perhaps it will work, but it feels like a significant gamble - but one we may unfortunately have to take. 

Why don't you @ me next time? Kidding  

Look, I'd like to keep him at a reasonable salary, but there's a good chance he's going to be paid far more than than $5 million a year he's worth, and that's the max I'd be willing to pay him.

2 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

Given any thought to the possibility that he has been playing injured the past few weeks?

Possible, but even if so, I'm not investing big money in Williams at his best. He's a one dimensional player that will have a constantly reducing role as his contract progresses, due to the evolution of the NFL. Twenty years ago, I'd make Brandon Williams the highest paid defender in the league. Today, no. Even at the beginning of the season, I said I was weary of giving him a big deal.

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. Williams is only playing about 50-60% of the defensive snaps, so he's not anchoring anything. He's an outstanding run stopper, but he's also not on the field nearly as often as you or anybody else thinks he is.

2. In a normal 3-4 defense, where your pass rushers are primarily OLBs, the NT is largely expected to take on double teams. Thats pretty much his job. Its not a testament to him being good... its a foundation of the defense we run. Plus, as others have said, he's NOT getting double teamed on every play.

3. If we keep the defense together, you'll be left with an inferior pass rush and no depth in the secondary, which is precisely what we had this year. The defense was good, even great at times, but its certainly not perfect and merely retaining the same players won't get it done.

4. I'm not opposed to resigning Williams at the right price, but he's not the kind of player I throw a blank check at. Same applies with Wagner.

Wagner will be significantly cheaper and if there's one unit on the team that you would largely want to keep together, its the offensive line. If you can bring back Stanley, Lewis, Yanda and Wagner, and get an upgrade at Center, you're looking at a top tier OL based on what I saw.

Much, much more important than retaining a run-stopping NT, no matter how good he is. Also, note that Michael Pierce played pretty well this season also, and I think he could play that role in a pinch.

Agreed with all here.

Michael Pierce is a perfect example of the 80/20 rule.

Also: What do you think a fair deal is for Williams? I think there's a divide  as to what NT's are worth these days.

Edited December 29, 2016 by The Raven

[JoeyFlex5]

Oh my god... 

We might actually be able to have the same 5 starters on the OL next year. 

Who in the hell ever imagined we could do that? I'd be willing to bet that makes an enormous difference in our offense. Also having another year+ offseason with Wallace and having West and Dixon getting very familiar with the same OL for 2 years.. Hell this could surprisingly be the most continuity we've had since the 2011-2012 seasons. 

 

[trevorsteadman]

12 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Oh my god... 

We might actually be able to have the same 5 starters on the OL next year. 

Who in the hell ever imagined we could do that? I'd be willing to bet that makes an enormous difference in our offense. Also having another year+ offseason with Wallace and having West and Dixon getting very familiar with the same OL for 2 years.. Hell this could surprisingly be the most continuity we've had since the 2011-2012 seasons. 

 

You jinxed it man.

[JoeyFlex5]

17 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

You jinxed it man.

3 players will tear an acl in training camp

[redrum52]

19 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

3 players will tear an acl in training camp

Dont worry.  It will only be Yanda, Stanley and Wagner.  Zuttah will be healthy after the Ravens make no attempt to add a C.

 

Speaking of, felt like the refs targeted him for some reason with real iffy calls.

Edited December 29, 2016 by redrum52

[rmcjacket23]

3 hours ago, The Raven said:

Why don't you @ me next time? Kidding  

Look, I'd like to keep him at a reasonable salary, but there's a good chance he's going to be paid far more than than $5 million a year he's worth, and that's the max I'd be willing to pay him.

Possible, but even if so, I'm not investing big money in Williams at his best. He's a one dimensional player that will have a constantly reducing role as his contract progresses, due to the evolution of the NFL. Twenty years ago, I'd make Brandon Williams the highest paid defender in the league. Today, no. Even at the beginning of the season, I said I was weary of giving him a big deal.

Agreed with all here.

Michael Pierce is a perfect example of the 80/20 rule.

Also: What do you think a fair deal is for Williams? I think there's a divide  as to what NT's are worth these days.

Damon Harrison + maybe a little bit extra. That probably puts him right at $10M AAV, probably like $25-30M guaranteed if its a typical five year deal.

Though I'm mildly convinced that deal Harrison got was just an outlier, much in the same way KO's deal was. I don't think NFL teams are just going to start paying $12M a year for a really good Guard because one team did it. Similarly, I'm not convinced that Williams will get paid that much either. I could see it happening, if another run defense-needy team feels the need to overpay for a two down run-stopper.

If he gets that's much, my suspicion is it will be a team running a 4-3 that will convert him into a prototype 4-3 DT, as opposed to a 3-4 NT, much in the way Harrison was. 

My suspicion is that the Ravens will be wiling to pay up to about $8M AAV for him. I don't think they'll sniff $10M a year. 

[The Raven]

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

Damon Harrison + maybe a little bit extra. That probably puts him right at $10M AAV, probably like $25-30M guaranteed if its a typical five year deal.

Though I'm mildly convinced that deal Harrison got was just an outlier, much in the same way KO's deal was. I don't think NFL teams are just going to start paying $12M a year for a really good Guard because one team did it. Similarly, I'm not convinced that Williams will get paid that much either. I could see it happening, if another run defense-needy team feels the need to overpay for a two down run-stopper.

If he gets that's much, my suspicion is it will be a team running a 4-3 that will convert him into a prototype 4-3 DT, as opposed to a 3-4 NT, much in the way Harrison was. 

My suspicion is that the Ravens will be wiling to pay up to about $8M AAV for him. I don't think they'll sniff $10M a year. 

You think we'd put up $8 million for him? Oof. I can see it but I don't like it.

[rmcjacket23]

5 minutes ago, The Raven said:

You think we'd put up $8 million for him? Oof. I can see it but I don't like it.

I mean I think we'll have somewhere in the range of $20-25M in cap space to spend, so I have no issue spending that on your own players. I guess in the grand scheme of things, $8M/year isn't a huge numbers in today's salary cap. Talking about less than 5% of the cap at this point.

And, while I agree his production is limited, he is unquestionably a great, young player and is easily one of the better players on this team.

I think what would be disappointing to me is if we let both Williams and Wagner walk. You basically wouldn't have any significant long-term signings in that draft class, outside of like Juice and maybe somebody like Jensen as a reserve. Its pretty disappointing if you can't lock up at least one player per draft class to a substantial long term deal. We failed to lock up anybody from the 2012 draft either, meaning back to back draft classes with no significant long term deals.

Granted, the 2014 draft class looks like you have two guys you'd probably want to keep long term in Mosley and Jernigan, though I suspect the FO is basically choosing between Williams and Jernigan at this point. Both have their pros and cons.

[JoeyFlex5]

3 hours ago, redrum52 said:

Dont worry.  It will only be Yanda, Stanley and Wagner.  Zuttah will be healthy after the Ravens make no attempt to add a C.

 

Speaking of, felt like the refs targeted him for some reason with real iffy calls.

and nobody will acknowledge the injuries and act like the lack of OL play is flaccos fault

[JoeyFlex5]

15 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I mean I think we'll have somewhere in the range of $20-25M in cap space to spend, so I have no issue spending that on your own players. I guess in the grand scheme of things, $8M/year isn't a huge numbers in today's salary cap. Talking about less than 5% of the cap at this point.

And, while I agree his production is limited, he is unquestionably a great, young player and is easily one of the better players on this team.

I think what would be disappointing to me is if we let both Williams and Wagner walk. You basically wouldn't have any significant long-term signings in that draft class, outside of like Juice and maybe somebody like Jensen as a reserve. Its pretty disappointing if you can't lock up at least one player per draft class to a substantial long term deal. We failed to lock up anybody from the 2012 draft either, meaning back to back draft classes with no significant long term deals.

Granted, the 2014 draft class looks like you have two guys you'd probably want to keep long term in Mosley and Jernigan, though I suspect the FO is basically choosing between Williams and Jernigan at this point. Both have their pros and cons.

i think we gotta sign wagner. flacco has never had any kind of continuity anywhere. boldin and ray rice were the closest things he had to continuity and those arent entire units, just guys he had a comfort level with. we finally found a working OL combination and that was without even having our starting LG and our RG out of position, no reason to break up a single piece of the OL when we finally get it working for the first time in forever, unless of course theres a drastic upgrade at center in which case you still should keep zuttah who would be the best 2nd string C in the league who has chemistry with the line. 

[Ravens419]

7 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

and nobody will acknowledge the injuries and act like the lack of OL play is flaccos fault

Just your typical year as a ravens fan 

[The Raven]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I mean I think we'll have somewhere in the range of $20-25M in cap space to spend, so I have no issue spending that on your own players. I guess in the grand scheme of things, $8M/year isn't a huge numbers in today's salary cap. Talking about less than 5% of the cap at this point.

And, while I agree his production is limited, he is unquestionably a great, young player and is easily one of the better players on this team.

I think what would be disappointing to me is if we let both Williams and Wagner walk. You basically wouldn't have any significant long-term signings in that draft class, outside of like Juice and maybe somebody like Jensen as a reserve. Its pretty disappointing if you can't lock up at least one player per draft class to a substantial long term deal. We failed to lock up anybody from the 2012 draft either, meaning back to back draft classes with no significant long term deals.

Granted, the 2014 draft class looks like you have two guys you'd probably want to keep long term in Mosley and Jernigan, though I suspect the FO is basically choosing between Williams and Jernigan at this point. Both have their pros and cons.

The trick with Williams vs Jernigan is that Jernigan has higher potential in the modern NFL, but he also takes plays off and gets on cold streaks. Williams doesn't, but he's more limited in terms of ability.

It's absolutely crucial for us to lock up at least two guys from this class. Missing out on long term deals for the 2009-2012 period is continuing to set us back.

Edited December 30, 2016 by The Raven

[rmw10]

20 minutes ago, The Raven said:

The trick with Williams vs Jernigan is that Jernigan has higher potential in the modern NFL, but he also takes plays off and gets on cold streaks. Williams doesn't, but he's more limited in terms of ability.

It's absolutely crucial for us to lock up at least two guys from this class. Missing out on long term deals for the 2009-2012 period is continuing to set us back.

Yep. At some point, were going to have to pay to keep our own talent. Webb, Pitta, and Jimmy the only ones since 2009. Some of those guys got overpaid on the market, but you absolutely have to figure out a way to retain more of your guys. Some just aren't good enough for a second contract and that's a whole different problem and discussion.