Gruntled Ravens Fan

State of the Ravens going into 2017

449 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, rmw10 said:

Agreed.  I think the WR addition is more likely to come by the way of a veteran FA to go along with Wallace, and for the first time in a long time, I don't think people are crazy for suggesting Garcon.  I think he'd be the perfect fit.  At OL, Wagner should be our main focus this offseason, and we can address C/G or whatever as we see fit.

As you said though, CB and OLB absolutely have to come via the draft, and we can't afford to miss either.  I'd still look at adding a veteran at CB for depth purposes, but we have to get some more young talent there.  Young is a nice get, but we still need more.

Ozzie probably needs to drop his BPA mantra, because those 2 years in a row of S, ILB, and DL killed us.  We have no talent at the skill positions now.  I know DeCosta is the pick hoarder as well, so I think he needs to loosen up and be willing to move for a guy if you want him.  This waiting and seeing what falls thing has hurt us a lot as well.

You think getting  bwill, Mosley and jernigan is what killed us because we went bpa? How about when we picked for needs in those same years in other rounds, taking Elam and art brown first and second to replace Ray and ed? How about when we took Upshaw to replace JJ? Or when we took oher to replace JO? Or when  we took Terrence Cody to replace Gregg? All reaches for needs and all busts.

The picks you just named that supposedly "killed us" are the only quality early round picks we've had aside from KO, Jimmy and torrey, only one of them being a real "need" pick in torrey. Jimmy was a need but he was far and away the BPA and a top 10 talent. 

this is quite a backwards statement.

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11 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

You think getting  bwill, Mosley and jernigan is what killed us because we went bpa? How about when we picked for needs in those same years in other rounds, taking Elam and art brown first and second to replace Ray and ed? How about when we took Upshaw to replace JJ? Or when we took oher to replace JO? Or when  we took Terrence Cody to replace Gregg? All reaches for needs and all busts.

The picks you just named that supposedly "killed us" are the only quality early round picks we've had aside from KO, Jimmy and torrey, only one of them being a real "need" pick in torrey. Jimmy was a need but he was far and away the BPA and a top 10 talent. 

this is quite a backwards statement.

This reminds me.  Our last, late solid pick, talent wise, was a guy with many character concerns.  Jimmy was said to be trouble and besides one incident, I can recall, he's been pretty clean his career.

 

We need to stop going for the safe, nice guy.  There are levels that should raise a flag, but when the talent is there, sometimes you need to believe the culture and person can change.  Also, draft some damn athletes.  We might be one of the slowest teams.  On offense, would LOVE to see Waller get more reps and would have no problem with us moving on from Pitta.  That is, unless the FO think they whiffed on Williams.

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9 minutes ago, redrum52 said:

This reminds me.  Our last, late solid pick, talent wise, was a guy with many character concerns.  Jimmy was said to be trouble and besides one incident, I can recall, he's been pretty clean his career.

 

We need to stop going for the safe, nice guy.  There are levels that should raise a flag, but when the talent is there, sometimes you need to believe the culture and person can change.  Also, draft some damn athletes.  We might be one of the slowest teams.  On offense, would LOVE to see Waller get more reps and would have no problem with us moving on from Pitta.  That is, unless the FO think they whiffed on Williams.

Yeah I thought Noah spences concerns were behind him but I personally thought he was overrated on the field. I'm glad we steered clear of tunsil because he always had drama around him and he was the only common factor, plus had injuries. I'm glad we avoided nkemdiche because I'm convinced that dude is a straight knucklhead who is a ticking time bomb and also overrated.

I can't really think of a character risk guy I wanted since Jimmy. I think Tim Williams might be the first.

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36 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

You think getting  bwill, Mosley and jernigan is what killed us because we went bpa? How about when we picked for needs in those same years in other rounds, taking Elam and art brown first and second to replace Ray and ed? How about when we took Upshaw to replace JJ? Or when we took oher to replace JO? Or when  we took Terrence Cody to replace Gregg? All reaches for needs and all busts.

The picks you just named that supposedly "killed us" are the only quality early round picks we've had aside from KO, Jimmy and torrey, only one of them being a real "need" pick in torrey. Jimmy was a need but he was far and away the BPA and a top 10 talent. 

this is quite a backwards statement.

Well, I guess I should rephrase and say the busts in rounds 1 and 2 in 2013 killed us, and because of that, we double dipped at those positions and ended up having no quality young talent at the skill positions.

By saying that it killed us, I don't mean that we got no good players out of it.  We got some key pieces, but it left us severely lacking in other places - places where we've been lacking for years.

As far as the busts you mentioned, I think that's a fair argument.  I still don't like the pure BPA model that we've adopted in some instances.  Despite me liking the Carl Davis pick, did we really need to spend a top 3 round pick on DL 3 years in a row?  It's those types of decisions that in hindsight, really look bad.

In all honesty, I think my biggest complaint comes at CB and our inability to adjust the board.  We've heard for years that a CB just hasn't been the BPA when they've been on the clock.  If it's still a need, you have to readjust your valuing system to fit with the current trends of the NFL.  I feel like that's been our biggest letdown thus far.

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25 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Yeah I thought Noah spences concerns were behind him but I personally thought he was overrated on the field. I'm glad we steered clear of tunsil because he always had drama around him and he was the only common factor, plus had injuries. I'm glad we avoided nkemdiche because I'm convinced that dude is a straight knucklhead who is a ticking time bomb and also overrated.

I can't really think of a character risk guy I wanted since Jimmy. I think Tim Williams might be the first.

Spence is a guy who will naturally draw comparisons to Correa since we needed an edge rusher, Spence was there and was a logical choice but we traded back (presumably for character concerns) and went with the more clean-cut kid from Boise State.  

http://www.pewterreport.com/accolades-accumulating-for-bucs-de-spence/

Certainly a better result than being a ST player, then healthy scratch, then IR. I do think we need to walk a fine line with respect to character. You don't want an insubordinate, PR nightmare, but you need players that can make an impact and bring some swagger back to this team.  

By all accounts, our biggest need is still edge rusher. That need would be a little less acute had we taken Spence. We still have no idea what we have in Correa. 

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21 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Well, I guess I should rephrase and say the busts in rounds 1 and 2 in 2013 killed us, and because of that, we double dipped at those positions and ended up having no quality young talent at the skill positions.

By saying that it killed us, I don't mean that we got no good players out of it.  We got some key pieces, but it left us severely lacking in other places - places where we've been lacking for years.

 

Just proves the adage that one bad draft can set a team back for years.

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20 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Well, I guess I should rephrase and say the busts in rounds 1 and 2 in 2013 killed us, and because of that, we double dipped at those positions and ended up having no quality young talent at the skill positions.

By saying that it killed us, I don't mean that we got no good players out of it.  We got some key pieces, but it left us severely lacking in other places - places where we've been lacking for years.

As far as the busts you mentioned, I think that's a fair argument.  I still don't like the pure BPA model that we've adopted in some instances.  Despite me liking the Carl Davis pick, did we really need to spend a top 3 round pick on DL 3 years in a row?  It's those types of decisions that in hindsight, really look bad.

In all honesty, I think my biggest complaint comes at CB and our inability to adjust the board.  We've heard for years that a CB just hasn't been the BPA when they've been on the clock.  If it's still a need, you have to readjust your valuing system to fit with the current trends of the NFL.  I feel like that's been our biggest letdown thus far.

Ahh I gotcha. That makes sense and I'd totally agree. I've always said that missing on oher and kindle is still haunting us. We JUST addressed LT 7 years after drafting oher, and 5 years after drafting kindle we have yet to find a pass rusher and dumervil is taking a big chunk of cap space. This led to us taking Upshaw as well. 

Totally whiffed top picks multiple times in a 5 season span is killer and has a huge trickle down effect. We didn't feel the sting from the 2010 draft really until last year, we felt the sting from 2013 the next season against the pats, and we will feel it again when weddle and Webb either leave or decline. 

I think the ravens can still compete but in a tight window. Were dangerously close to entering win-now 2015 Broncos mode. We have no answers in sight for suggs, weddle, doom, sss, yanda, and Webb and all but 1 of them could be fine by 2018. We have no shot in hell at replacing that core entirely. I think it's about that time that we break the bank to try to squeeze out one run, we have a qb who clearly can do it and our roster overall is in real danger of crumbling, it won't happen this year, but very soon our roster is gonna be ugly.

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6 minutes ago, balfan23 said:

Spence is a guy who will naturally draw comparisons to Correa since we needed an edge rusher, Spence was there and was a logical choice but we traded back (presumably for character concerns) and went with the more clean-cut kid from Boise State.  

http://www.pewterreport.com/accolades-accumulating-for-bucs-de-spence/

Certainly a better result than being a ST player, then healthy scratch, then IR. I do think we need to walk a fine line with respect to character. You don't want an insubordinate, PR nightmare, but you need players that can make an impact and bring some swagger back to this team.  

By all accounts, our biggest need is still edge rusher. That need would be a little less acute had we taken Spence. We still have no idea what we have in Correa. 

I think people are writing Correa off too quickly though. We knew he was a project and he still has a lot of upside, and I think if Zach orr hadn't burst onto scene he would've been a solid ilb for us. He also wasn't given a chance to develop at OLB in the off-season probably because the coaches didn't anticipate orrs performance and thought they would need Correa at that spot. 

With a proper offseason at OLB and another year of body development I think is when we can start setting the bar, if he has another redshirt season then it's time to panic, but Correa and judon could be a good duo and kc deserves a chance. 

I also wonder if the 34 is just not suited for him. I think he's clearly a better 43 guy who gets to drop back and get an open running start when pass rushing. He's not built to engage the OT right off the snap. 

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3 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Ahh I gotcha. That makes sense and I'd totally agree. I've always said that missing on oher and kindle is still haunting us. We JUST addressed LT 7 years after drafting oher, and 5 years after drafting kindle we have yet to find a pass rusher and dumervil is taking a big chunk of cap space. This led to us taking Upshaw as well. 

Totally whiffed top picks multiple times in a 5 season span is killer and has a huge trickle down effect. We didn't feel the sting from the 2010 draft really until last year, we felt the sting from 2013 the next season against the pats, and we will feel it again when weddle and Webb either leave or decline. 

I think the ravens can still compete but in a tight window. Were dangerously close to entering win-now 2015 Broncos mode. We have no answers in sight for suggs, weddle, doom, sss, yanda, and Webb and all but 1 of them could be fine by 2018. We have no shot in hell at replacing that core entirely. I think it's about that time that we break the bank to try to squeeze out one run, we have a qb who clearly can do it and our roster overall is in real danger of crumbling, it won't happen this year, but very soon our roster is gonna be ugly.

Yep.  Despite some good players in the drafts, we haven't hit on a playmaker at a skill position for a very long time.  It pains me to say it, but Ozzie should be feeling real good about knocking this year's 4th round out of the park.  If he hadn't, we'd be in world of trouble, and he probably would as well.

I know it's hard to completely avoid BPA, but I think positions get to a point where you have to do what you can to fill them.  If a position has been an issue for multiple years, you can't just keep letting it go.  Whether we sign a FA or make a trade up in the draft, it's what you have to do sometimes.  I think that's where we've been failing and it's really starting to show up these past 2 years.  If you have a hole, fill it.  Don't just wait and hope someone steps up.

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3 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Ahh I gotcha. That makes sense and I'd totally agree. I've always said that missing on oher and kindle is still haunting us. We JUST addressed LT 7 years after drafting oher, and 5 years after drafting kindle we have yet to find a pass rusher and dumervil is taking a big chunk of cap space. This led to us taking Upshaw as well. 

Totally whiffed top picks multiple times in a 5 season span is killer and has a huge trickle down effect. We didn't feel the sting from the 2010 draft really until last year, we felt the sting from 2013 the next season against the pats, and we will feel it again when weddle and Webb either leave or decline. 

I think the ravens can still compete but in a tight window. Were dangerously close to entering win-now 2015 Broncos mode. We have no answers in sight for suggs, weddle, doom, sss, yanda, and Webb and all but 1 of them could be fine by 2018. We have no shot in hell at replacing that core entirely. I think it's about that time that we break the bank to try to squeeze out one run, we have a qb who clearly can do it and our roster overall is in real danger of crumbling, it won't happen this year, but very soon our roster is gonna be ugly.

We can't control every aspect of the draft or if/how players will develop, we've got to be able to make adjustments and roll with punches. I hate talking about the Patriots but they have multiple draft failures too but the difference is they know how to adjust and adapt, they can trade marquee players at will and still win games.

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6 minutes ago, ALPHA said:

We can't control every aspect of the draft or if/how players will develop, we've got to be able to make adjustments and roll with punches. I hate talking about the Patriots but they have multiple draft failures too but the difference is they know how to adjust and adapt, they can trade marquee players at will and still win games.

But you can take better players. We should've taken Shepard or Thomas in the 2nd, I won't say we should've taken Byron Jones over bp because I think perriman can be special, but our secondary would be looking much better and honestly we probably beat the Steelers with Byron Jones back there. 

Its all a crapshoot, I know this as well as anyone, I mean Arthur Brown barely even played a down and he was a sure fire safe pick. But it comes down to not overthinking yourself and just taking the right guys. We haven't done That very much. Stanley and Mosley were steps in the right direction but eventually you gotta make a splash at a skill position that you desperately need.

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On 12/26/2016 at 6:04 PM, The Raven said:

My mind is made up. Lock up Wagner and let William get overpaid elsewhere. I'd rather invest cap space and a roster spot in a lineman that can actually push the pocket in clutch situations.

You're okay with letting our best D-lineman (perhaps one of the best in the game) walk for an good O-lineman???

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The past is the past people. This team is on the verge of regaining dominance and this offseason if crucial. We will not solve every single need, but we can strengthen at least two areas and get ready to ball out. I'm hoping secondary and pass rush. 

I think our first round pick should be a edge rusher or corner. Ideal picks at our 17-19 range, maybe higher if we need to jump anyone

1.) Tim Williams 

2.) Sidney Jones 

3.) Takk McKinley 

4.) Quincy Wilson 

Then round 2-3 hopefully we will land an anchor Center then take advantage of the depth of edge rushers, corners, and WR. Lots of talent that can be developed. 

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1 minute ago, Virginia 55 said:

You're okay with letting our best D-lineman (perhaps one of the best in the game) walk for an good O-lineman???

Guy will be an easy resign and he is super underrated. Williams is a Raven and I hope he returns, but cap nightmares come from overpaying players in positions that are not that valuable. If he wants any more than a 5 year, $40-45 million deal, then it is not worth it. Ozzie can find run stuffers. Williams isn't a great pass rusher like Suh, McCoy, Dareus--of the past, Donald, but mainly a space eater. 

Wagner anchors down the line and we have less concerns going into next year. You want Flacco to have protection to be effective. 

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5 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

3.3 savings after dead money? Or a net of 1.1m dead money?

3.3 

After June 1st, dead money drops to 2.2 with cap savings of 5.5

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13 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

But you can take better players. We should've taken Shepard or Thomas in the 2nd, I won't say we should've taken Byron Jones over bp because I think perriman can be special, but our secondary would be looking much better and honestly we probably beat the Steelers with Byron Jones back there. 

Its all a crapshoot, I know this as well as anyone, I mean Arthur Brown barely even played a down and he was a sure fire safe pick. But it comes down to not overthinking yourself and just taking the right guys. We haven't done That very much. Stanley and Mosley were steps in the right direction but eventually you gotta make a splash at a skill position that you desperately need.

I wouldn't argue with Shepard or Thomas but they wouldn't have made the same impact here, we're talking Perriman/Aiken numbers. Flacco had a down year (presumably because of his injury) but even when he heated up he simply doesn't function well without a strong ground game, if we had Julio Jones out there you'd think he aged 10 years.

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9 minutes ago, ALPHA said:

I wouldn't argue with Shepard or Thomas but they wouldn't have made the same impact here, we're talking Perriman/Aiken numbers. Flacco had a down year (presumably because of his injury) but even when he heated up he simply doesn't function well without a strong ground game, if we had Julio Jones out there you'd think he aged 10 years.

Ehh. Still had a fair amount of dropped passes and no separation. Both of those guys do those things better than anyone on the roster.

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Well now that Sr. is done, we need a playmaking stud at WR that Joe can go too like he does with all of his reliable veterans. Time to pay up, Ozzie. Go out and get Alshon. We can't wait on Breshad. He'll be a playmaker, but I think he's going to be a slow developer. Surround Joe with weapons and stop being cheap. 

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18 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Ehh. Still had a fair amount of dropped passes and no separation. Both of those guys do those things better than anyone on the roster.

I'd have to see how our dropped pass rate compares to other high volume passers but historically he has better seasons with less attempts. If we can get the ground game rolling along it will helps him and keep our defense fresh.

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1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I think people are writing Correa off too quickly though. We knew he was a project and he still has a lot of upside, and I think if Zach orr hadn't burst onto scene he would've been a solid ilb for us. He also wasn't given a chance to develop at OLB in the off-season probably because the coaches didn't anticipate orrs performance and thought they would need Correa at that spot. 

With a proper offseason at OLB and another year of body development I think is when we can start setting the bar, if he has another redshirt season then it's time to panic, but Correa and judon could be a good duo and kc deserves a chance. 

I also wonder if the 34 is just not suited for him. I think he's clearly a better 43 guy who gets to drop back and get an open running start when pass rushing. He's not built to engage the OT right off the snap. 

I don't mean to imply that I'm writing Correa off - but the year he had doesn't instill much confidence going forward. It would appear that he wasn't given a chance to develop at OLB, because Judon (a 5th rounder) took his spot, which isn't a good sign. It is much like Maxx, where he was also outplayed by a 5th rounder and was basically red shirted. Unfortunately, he is now 2 years red shirt and that is troubling. 

The primary point of the post was I'm concerned we are being overly cautious on the character issue when selecting players. Spence was a logical choice for us and is now a starter at a position of great need ... a position where we are now going to have to expend another very high pick to get production when there are so many other areas to address. He was defensive rookie of the month and appears to be poised to be a real contributor with a high ceiling. At the moment, Correa's ceiling appears to be that of a Paul Kruger. Now, if that means in 4 years he'll be a sack specialist on a Ravens Super Bowl winning team, I'll be OK with that ;) 

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7 minutes ago, balfan23 said:

I don't mean to imply that I'm writing Correa off - but the year he had doesn't instill much confidence going forward. It would appear that he wasn't given a chance to develop at OLB, because Judon (a 5th rounder) took his spot, which isn't a good sign. It is much like Maxx, where he was also outplayed by a 5th rounder and was basically red shirted. Unfortunately, he is now 2 years red shirt and that is troubling. 

The primary point of the post was I'm concerned we are being overly cautious on the character issue item when selecting players. Spence was a logical choice for us and is now a starter at a position of great need ... a position where we are now going to have to expend another very high pick to get production when there are so many other areas to address. He was defensive rookie of the month and appears to be poised to be a real contributor with a high ceiling. At the moment, Correa's ceiling appears to be that of a Paul Kruger. Now, if that means in 4 years he'll be a sack specialist on a Ravens Super Bowl winning team, I'll be OK with that ;) 

We also missed on arguably rookie edge rusher of the year in Ngakoue. He didn't have any off the field issues, it was pure bad talent evaluation.

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35 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

We also missed on arguably rookie edge rusher of the year in Ngakoue. He didn't have any off the field issues, it was pure bad talent evaluation.

Ngakoue looked horrible on film man. I have no idea how he had such a great season. He had the numbers but his film was simply bad and he seemed to look worse the more you watched him. 

I don't blame them at all for not taking him.

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1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Ngakoue looked horrible on film man. I have no idea how he had such a great season. He had the numbers but his film was simply bad and he seemed to look worse the more you watched him. 

I don't blame them at all for not taking him.

Horrible is quite a bit of overstatement, to put it mildly. Not sure what you were looking for. We didn't need 3 down OLB. Edge and rush are the key words here and we miserably missed on two best edge rushers of 2016 class.

Edited by allblackraven
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30 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

Horrible is quite a bit of overstatement, to put it mildly. Not sure what you were looking for. We didn't need 3 down OLB. Edge and rush are the key words here and we miserably missed on two best edge rushers of 2015 class.

Horrible was an overstatement but he had some really ugly plays and showed bad decision making often. He used to take himself out of plays by just ramming into the nearest blocker when he could have gotten better pressure in other ways, he was horrendous against screens, and I worried about his ability to bring down NFL qbs with his wrap-and-deadweight tackling technique. 

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4 hours ago, Virginia 55 said:

You're okay with letting our best D-lineman (perhaps one of the best in the game) walk for an good O-lineman???

Considering Brandon Williams looked like a backup for the past four games, and Rick Wagner has been our best offensive lineman for most of the year, yes.

Williams has not earned the contract he will be offered. Rick Wagner has.

Edited by The Raven
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19 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

That would be much easier if Waller, Williams, Boyle and Gilmore actually made more of an impact this year, which none of them have, with the exception of Waller and his impact was minimal. Gilmore and Williams had a very disappointing year this season, especially Williams who didn't even record a catch and Gilmore who didn't do much, both guys have injury concerns as well and its becoming a trend. Now if you're recommending that we employ someone to step up at TE than okay, but I don't think we will gamble at TE and WR, not after the year the offense had. 

If Pitta fails to win the starting job at camp, then you know one of those guys will make an impact, if he does then that tells you that none of those guys are the solution. 

Again what did Dennis Pitta and Ed Dickson show in 2010 that made the Ravens comfortable with cutting Todd Heap after a 40rec 599yds 15ypc 5TD season? Those two guys as rookies had a total of 12 catches for less than 200 yards. Even in hindsight you can't sit here and tell me that was a easy move to make. It's not about being easy, it's about what's best moving forward. 

I'll say the same thing I said about Forsett, the Ravens can't move forward with Pitta being your primary TE and if he's not your #1 guy than he's way too expense as a back up. Dennis Pitta was apart of the problem offensively. Not being able to consistently separate from LBs to take advantage of those favorable matchups is one of the reasons they team would throw short of the sticks so much. Of his 75rec only 4 were explosive plays and only 31 resulted in first down catches. His 8.5ypc was 2nd worse among the top 40 TEs in the NFL, so let's not act as if Pitta crushed it in 2016. I honestly think that any of the 4 young TE could produce he same numbers if not much better than Pitta if given the same opportunities. 

Then look at the 4 young TE and show me where Pitta fits, Maxx is a 2nd round pick who had a solid rookie season but injury robbed his sophomore season. He's also entering the 3rd year of a 4 year contract. You must find out what you have with him right now. He's almost guaranteed to see more action in 2017. Waller is a guy the Ravens love at TE and they'll continue to develop him so he's not going anywhere. They've found something with him in the redzone and role will just continue to grow. Boyle is clearly the best blocker and will be locked into that #2 role because of what he does in the run game. So if Pitta is nothing more than a glorified checkdown option, why should he take snaps away from those young guys?

 Also the biggest thing against Pitta is that large cap number. The Ravens can't keep him at that price tag and if Pitta and his people still feel he's among the better TEs in the NFL much like Boldin and Ngata he probably won't be willing to take a pay cut. 

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17 hours ago, rmw10 said:

At least this is a very strong positive heading into 2017...

 

That's huge. Stanley has been a stone wall aside from a few penalties early on and a bad game returning from injury vs James harrison. He's easily been One of the best lts in the league otherwise though. 

That is HUGE for us moving forward. Qb and lt are probably the 2 hardest positions to find.

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On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 8:33 PM, Gruntled Ravens Fan said:

A couple of things we need to do in order to make a Super Bowl run next year.

1. Aquire interior offensive lineman either through the draft or FA

2. Draft a pass rusher with the our first pick and let him start and have Suggs play on passing downs only

3. Get our Safety position figured out. Either draft a Safety or get someone younger to replace Webb 

4. Add more playmakers for Joe to throw to

TJ Lang is entering free agency.  He would be a great pickup.  Question is could we afford him?

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