[News] Late For Work 12/19: Seven Eagles-Ravens Game Takeaways, Including Playoff Scenarios

[Ravenous_Ravens]

Run game was only exposed as the Ravens seemed more focused on ensuring the secondary was not exposed. Run Defense will be back to form for Steelers game, hopefully Smith is able to return as well.

With the way West has been working and running the ball, do not stop. If you want to wear teams out, you run the ball all game. When the fourth quarter comes around, the opponents defense will flat out be gassed and you will have also kept your defense nice and fresh.

Need to have a clean game next week. So selfish penalties that could literally cost the season.

[Bline1027]

I have to disagree with Ozzie having a spot on draft. We could have taken Noah Spence in the 2nd round instead of Kamalei Correa and wasted a pick on Bronson Kaufusi in the 3rd round who we got nothing out of this year. Yes Ozzie killed it in the 4th round with Judon, Young, Dixon, and Moore. Ozzie has been missing picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds for years Max Williams, Carl Davis, Terrance Brooks, and Arthur Brown. The only 3rd round pick that Ozzie made good since 2013 was Brandon Williams and we are losing him this offseason because Ozzie will be too cheap.

2nd and 3rd rounder's have to be the foundation and breakout players.

Flacco is overrated and will continue to hurt the franchise for years especially with the extension from last season.

[Crusader]

Before Flacco's contract ,from 2008 to 2011 44 wins and 20 . After the contract 2012 to 2015 , 33 wins and 31.....Nothing to see here.Move on.

[billiejean]

1 hour ago, The Mom Gene said:

It's not Stanley or Yanda that I have a problem with... It's the Center and the other side..... Those guys are doing a great job of keeping people off of Joe. Zuttah is constantly being pushed back into Joe.

I'm just saying.... I can't get the image of that pocket out of my head last night with Prescott, thinking... Oh, if only Joe had that.
 

You could be thinking about Vlad Ducasse. Zuttah had a rough beginning of the season and was affected by all of the injuries that we had. The injuries made the two guard spots next to him a revolving door of inexperienced players. In one game (in the first three games of the season) Zuttah played terribly and on two separate occasions he got pushed back into Joe. Since that time he has played well and has been rated as a top 5 player on the offensive for 7 of the last 10 match ups. He actually had me worried during this last game when he went out for two plays because of an injury. His replacement got man handled on both of those plays but luckily he came back in the next series. On the other side Rick Wagner had a rough game and gave up a sack but that was an anomaly. He is rated the 8th best RT in the league and probably has priced himself out of Baltimore.

Edited December 19, 2016 by billiejean

[The Mom Gene]

20 minutes ago, billiejean said:

You could be thinking about Vlad Ducasse. Zuttah had a rough beginning of the season and was affected by all of the injuries that we had. The injuries made the two guard spots next to him a revolving door of inexperienced players. In one game (in the first three games of the season) Zuttah played terribly and on two separate occasions he got pushed back into Joe. Since that time he has played well and has been rated as a top 5 player on the offensive for 7 of the last 10 match ups. He actually had me worried during this last game when he went out for two plays because of an injury. His replacement got man handled on both of those plays but luckily he came back in the next series. On the other side Rick Wagner had a rough game and gave up a sack but that was an anomaly. He is rated the 8th best RT in the league and probably has priced himself out of Baltimore.

It's also the penalties billiejean.  They're drive killers.  False starts...  illegal formation... 

[callahan09]

"The Ravens could win a wild-card spot … by finishing 1-1 AND the Dolphins losing out AND the Texans, Broncos and Titans finishing 1-1. A single win by the Dolphins would prevent a wild-card spot for Baltimore."

The good news here is that the Broncos have @Chiefs and then home vs Raiders, I think the odds are substantial that they lose at least one of these.

The Texans and Titans finish the season against each other, so one of them is going to get a loss. It is impossible for more than one team in the South to do better than 9-7 and we hold the tiebreaker at 9-7 over all of them, so as long as we win at least one more game, we're guaranteed to be ahead of all teams from the South in the wild card standings.

That just leaves Miami. They need to lose both games, unfortunately. If they win again, then the only way we can get in is if we win the division.

They play @Bills and home vs Patriots.

It's entirely within the realm of possibility that they will lose both, but other than the one game against us where we kicked their butts, they've been playing really well for about 9 weeks straight now, so who knows.

But there is a decent chance, I think, thta we could still make the playoffs as a wild card if we go 9-7. Our only real worries are that we need the Broncos to lose either against the Chiefs OR Raiders (I think that's a very good bet!), AND we need the Dolphins to lose both games to the Bills and Patriots (not nearly as safe of a bet, but possible). So really, all scoreboard watching comes down to the Steelers and the Dolphins as far as our playoff chances go, unless the Broncos suddenly wake up and perform well against two great teams.

[Bat-mite]

2 minutes ago, callahan09 said:

"The Ravens could win a wild-card spot … by finishing 1-1 AND the Dolphins losing out AND the Texans, Broncos and Titans finishing 1-1. A single win by the Dolphins would prevent a wild-card spot for Baltimore."

The good news here is that the Broncos have @Chiefs and then home vs Raiders, I think the odds are substantial that they lose at least one of these.

The Texans and Titans finish the season against each other, so one of them is going to get a loss. It is impossible for more than one team in the South to do better than 9-7 and we hold the tiebreaker at 9-7 over all of them, so as long as we win at least one more game, we're guaranteed to be ahead of all teams from the South in the wild card standings.

That just leaves Miami. They need to lose both games, unfortunately. If they win again, then the only way we can get in is if we win the division.

They play @Bills and home vs Patriots.

It's entirely within the realm of possibility that they will lose both, but other than the one game against us where we kicked their butts, they've been playing really well for about 9 weeks straight now, so who knows.

But there is a decent chance, I think, thta we could still make the playoffs as a wild card if we go 9-7. Our only real worries are that we need the Broncos to lose either against the Chiefs OR Raiders (I think that's a very good bet!), AND we need the Dolphins to lose both games to the Bills and Patriots (not nearly as safe of a bet, but possible). So really, all scoreboard watching comes down to the Steelers and the Dolphins as far as our playoff chances go, unless the Broncos suddenly wake up and perform well against two great teams.

Ohmigosh, that makes my head hurt!  Let's just win out! 

[Mahatma_Sloth]

31 minutes ago, Crusader said:

Before Flacco's contract ,from 2008 to 2011 44 wins and 20 . After the contract 2012 to 2016 , 41 wins and 37.....Nothing to see here.Move on.

2008 - 2011: 1 OC .  2012 - 2016: 5 OC  I found something to see here

[Mahatma_Sloth]

Funny: = keep calm and trust ozzie- after YESTERDAY? Unless the Ravens are playing the dumb fox all year long re the same old issues and bullpoo- leading up to these 2 games, these 2 road games are THE scenario. We should not have even been in this position to begin with.
I am not trusting anyone....just show us(the Raven fans that are NOT gullable)!
If we do NOT come out of these 2 games without looking any better / well off- heads should roll.

top 5 D with solid contribution from rookies and UDFA... get over yourself. Even brent urban is contributing, i bet you wrote him off years ago

[metalraven]

  4 hours ago, 7NationArmy said:

Dear Ravens,

When we all complained last week because the offense was moving too slow and they weren't being aggressive late in the 4th quarter, it was because we were DOWN 10 not UP 10.

DOWN 10 = HURRY/AGGRESSIVE
UP 10 = SLOW DOWN/RUN THE BALL

Please print this off to have as a reference.

PS. If you could return the years that I lost of my life due to the end of that game that would be great. Whenever you get the chance.

Thanks,
Ravens Fans

But 3 games ago against the Bengals the Ravens did just that and the Bengals climbed back into the game... I like the aggressive call it didn't work out obviously and Flacco made a terrible throw. The defense can't let the Eagles lackluster offense move the ball like they did.

Running down the clock, then kicking a FG would have pretty much assured them the W. In that exact scenario, you absolutely do not take unnecessary risks. It was an incredibly stupid, stupid call. The throw? Well, that was even worse than the call itself.

[metalraven]

  3 hours ago, ellicottraven said:

Marty is uninspiring and clueless when it comes to game management and calls based on the situation in a game. Perhaps it is Harbaugh's responsibility but both proved lax in that yesterday. I am being kind with the word 'lax' actually. Joe after 9 yrs and a SB victory still seems to be terrible at recognition and vision of the field and decision making. If he is on, he is great but this season he is hardly on.

Yes, and so did Brady when Weddle got him. Joe's was worse for sure, but it does happen.

It happens to Joe A LOT. Most of his picks have been due to terrible decisions. Not necessarily good CB coverage.

[metalraven]

  1 hour ago, Crusader said:

Before Flacco's contract ,from 2008 to 2011 44 wins and 20 . After the contract 2012 to 2016 , 41 wins and 37.....Nothing to see here.Move on.

2008 - 2011: 1 OC .  2012 - 2016: 5 OC  I found something to see here

Typical reply from a Flacco apologist. The dude has been a starting QB in the NFL for 9 years, and still makes rookie mistakes. Just accept it, for God's sake. You don't need an OC to know not to throw off of your back foot, or to throw a "no look" pass to the wrong team when you're on the opponent's 11 yard line, with a 10 point lead with 6+ minutes to go. What Flacco needs is logic; and this has alluded him for quite some time.

Wait, wait, wait...I know what your argument is; so I'll do it for you: "Remember the 2012 playoffs? He is a super bowl MVP, you know."

Save it.

[Ravens Raver]

As soon as we marched down the field on the first drive, my wife said, "We're gonna KILL these guys!" I said, "Just watch...they'll let it get to one score at the end." But even I didn't think it would get down to one point!

This would have been one of our better games this season if not for that stupid, stupid, STUPID pass play & interception. Everything else followed from that.

[fluffy201]

  2 hours ago, Mahatma_Sloth said:

  3 hours ago, Crusader said:

Before Flacco's contract ,from 2008 to 2011 44 wins and 20 . After the contract 2012 to 2016 , 41 wins and 37.....Nothing to see here.Move on.

2008 - 2011: 1 OC .  2012 - 2016: 5 OC  I found something to see here

Typical reply from a Flacco apologist. The dude has been a starting QB in the NFL for 9 years, and still makes rookie mistakes. Just accept it, for God's sake. You don't need an OC to know not to throw off of your back foot, or to throw a "no look" pass to the wrong team when you're on the opponent's 11 yard line, with a 10 point lead with 6+ minutes to go. What Flacco needs is logic; and this has alluded him for quite some time.

Wait, wait, wait...I know what your argument is; so I'll do it for you: "Remember the 2012 playoffs? He is a super bowl MVP, you know."

Save it.

lol

[callahan09]

1 hour ago, metalraven said:

It happens to Joe A LOT. Most of his picks have been due to terrible decisions. Not necessarily good CB coverage.

Is that a fact?  His interception yesterday WAS a bad play by Flacco.  But I don't believe it's at all typical of the kind of interceptions he throws.  It's not a typical play from him at all.  If you think it is, then go pull up the tape and explain it with the evidence.

Flacco's interception vs New England: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016121200/2016/REG14/ravens@patriots/watch#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000756140&tab=videos

Observe at 25 seconds, the ball goes right threw Wallace's arms, he definitely should have caught this ball and it should not have been an interception.  This was an interception because the receiver misplayed the ball.

vs Miami: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016120401/2016/REG13/dolphins@ravens#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000750510&tab=videos

Wallace doesn't come back for the ball, doesn't even attempt to make a play at the ball.  He misplays it and just stands there and watches it sail past his head on the way to an INT.  This is also intercepted only because the receiver misplayed it.  (That's two INTs in a row that were the fault of Wallace misplaying the ball).

 

vs Cincy: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016112701/2016/REG12/bengals@ravens#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000746511&tab=videos

Pass deflected by a D-lineman who got his hands up on it, intercepted off the deflection.  That's not a "terrible decision" interception, either. Just bad luck.

vs Dallas: No interceptions

I just looked at the past 5 games, that's 200 pass attempts and 4 interceptions, and only his final pass of the Eagles game was an example of a "terrible decision", the other 3 weren't really his fault.

Now I'll be more than fair and keep looking to see what we've got out of him this year... Next up is the Browns game:

1st INT vs Browns: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016111000/2016/REG10/browns@ravens#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000737347&tab=videos

He throws up a pass to a single covered SSR.  That's not a "terrible decision".  It's intercepted for multiple reasons: Great CB coverage, first of all (which you claimed is not usually a reason for his passes being picked off), a great play to catch the ball by that CB, and let's not forget, yet another WR misplay by SSR.  He inexplicably just completely gave up on the route and let the CB have the only play at the ball for no good reason and we paid the price because of it.

2nd INT vs Browns: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016111000/2016/REG10/browns@ravens#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000737408&tab=videos

This is probably the next most recent example of a bad decision.  He tries to make a play, scrambles out of the pocket and throws the ball on the move, and Hayden picks him off.  It's nowhere near as egregious as the Eagles interception.  But it's definitely Joe's fault, but aided by the fact that the pocket collapsed and he had to run for his life and was trying to make a play, but a bad effort.  This is the 2nd INT that was primarily Joe's fault, he should have just thrown it away.

vs Steelers: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016110601/2016/REG9/steelers@ravens#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000734245&tab=videos

He has to escape from the pocket again and tries to throw to the middle of the field while on the move, and it's just a bad effort.  This is another one that's his fault, but of course it's also another example of him having to run for his life when the pocket collapses and he tries to make a play, but made a big mistake again.  

This is the 3rd that was primarily Joe's fault, he should have thrown it away.  But both this and the one above against the Browns were still great defensive plays.

 NEITHER OF THESE is the kind of play that happened against the Eagles, where a defender was just sitting there on the route waiting for him to throw it in his lane, and Joe had plenty of time to read the field but inexplicably didn't see him and threw it anyway.  That was the kind of thing you're trying to say is emblematic of Joe's interceptions?  Still haven't seen another one this season like it and I've looked at each INT back to the bye week, because both this one vs the Steelers and the one vs the Browns were great defensive plays, Joe didn't have time and was disrupted and couldn't set his feet for the throw, so it's entirely different than the just plain bad decision and easy (not even noteworthy) play by the defender like in that Eagles INT.

Let's keep going...

1st INT vs Jets: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016102306/2016/REG7/ravens@jets#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000726031&tab=videos

This is not a bad decision, it's a great play by the safety and a bad overthrow by Flacco, but the decision to go there isn't really the issue.  This is the 4th INT that's all on Joe (counting the one vs the Eagles, and one each against the Steelers and Browns) (this one is in my opinion the second most to-blame for him, because he had time to set his feet and step into that throw, and just made a really bad throw, there's literally no-one to blame but him on this one, so it's not like you can just say that he made a mistake because of the pressure like on the two I described above).

2nd INT vs Jets: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016102306/2016/REG7/ravens@jets#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000726468&tab=videos

This is also a good decision, but yeah not a great throw, and a terrible route by Perriman who was supposed to come back for this but let himself get beat inside to have that ball taken away.  This one doesn't fit the narrative that Joe makes terrible decisions and CB's don't make special plays on the ball to pick him off.  This was the right decision to make that throw, and a really bad effort by Perriman and a great effort by the CB.

The next 3 games in a row going back, he threw 0 picks.

1st pick vs Jags: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016092504/2016/REG3/ravens@jaguars#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000708976&tab=videos

Pitta and Flacco are not on the same page about what route Pitta's running here, thus the ball ends up way behind him.  It still took an absurd diving effort from the defender to tip the ball into the air, and then a dumb lucky situation where another defender is back there to catch it for an interception.  Just bad luck.

2nd pick vs Jags: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016092504/2016/REG3/ravens@jaguars#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000709006&tab=videos

The ball is deflected at the line of scrimmage, and Forsett also misplays it in the air and a great defensive play leads to the interception.  This also just bad luck.

So that's 2 interceptions in one game, both are ridiculously unlucky for Flacco that they were picked off.

There's only two more picks left to look at, in the first Browns game:

1st INT vs Browns: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016091801/2016/REG2/ravens@browns#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000704251&tab=videos

First of all, it's a fine read and an excellent play by Joe Hayden to intercept this ball.  Secondly, it looks to me like SSR messes up this route at the end of it.  It looks to me like he gave up on this one, similar to that one in the other Browns game that I discussed above.  When he cuts out of his route it looks like he's on a a straight line to where Flacco threw the ball to, but SSR ends up trailing off at the end of the route and doesn't wind up at that spot.  I think if SSR had committed to this route it would have been a great completion, actually.

2nd INT vs Browns: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016091801/2016/REG2/ravens@browns#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000704509&tab=videos

This throw it definitely not great, it needed to be more to the sideline over Perriman's right shoulder.  It was too inside, giving Hayden a chance to make a play on it.  But once again, it's a good read, a good decision, and a good play by the CB that leads to it being an interception on an imperfectly thrown ball.  This doesn't fit your narrative of Flacco throwing INTs on terrible reads and it not necessarily being good CB coverage.  This is *FANTASTIC* CB coverage and a great play on the ball.  And Perriman's 2nd career game and he could have probably done something to break this pass up anyway, but didn't.

 

So breaking all that down, I count 3 just plain unlucky interceptions (all deflected and then intercepted), 3 clear and obvious WR misplays that are not at all Flacco's fault, 3 more where it was a great defensive play and the WR didn't play it optimally and could have prevented an interception, 1 clear overthrow but not a bad decision, 2 ill-advised attempts to make a play and throw the ball while scrambling outside the pocket, and then that pass in the Eagles game where he just never saw the linebacker sitting there waiting to jump the throw.

So I'd say that 6 of his 13 interceptions are essentially not his fault at all and should not have been intercepted, 3 more were not bad decisions and were great defensive plays coupled with poor efforts by the WR and probably shouldn't have been intercepted, and then 4 that were clearly Joe's fault, but only a grand total of ONE of them fits the mold of just being a plain old poor read and failure at scanning the field when he had time in the pocket.  ONE more was him making a poor throw that had no chance to be anything other than interception, while he had plenty of time in the pocket.  And the final two were just screw-ups while running for his life and trying to make something out of nothing and it ended up not working out.

If you ask me, Flacco's decision making has been very safe and sound this year, with really the only poor decisions being the Eagles INT and the two interceptions where he shouldn't have forced the ball while scrambling and instead just thrown it away.  One really bad throw that had no chance and was 0% the fault of the receiver.

 

[Moderator 3]

1 hour ago, callahan09 said:

1st INT vs Jets: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016102306/2016/REG7/ravens@jets#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000726031&tab=videos

This is not a bad decision, it's a great play by the safety and a bad overthrow by Flacco, but the decision to go there isn't really the issue.  This is the 4th INT that's all on Joe (counting the one vs the Eagles, and one each against the Steelers and Browns) (this one is in my opinion the second most to-blame for him, because he had time to set his feet and step into that throw, and just made a really bad throw, there's literally no-one to blame but him on this one, so it's not like you can just say that he made a mistake because of the pressure like on the two I described above).

2nd INT vs Jets: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016102306/2016/REG7/ravens@jets#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000726468&tab=videos

This is also a good decision, but yeah not a great throw, and a terrible route by Perriman who was supposed to come back for this but let himself get beat inside to have that ball taken away.  This one doesn't fit the narrative that Joe makes terrible decisions and CB's don't make special plays on the ball to pick him off.  This was the right decision to make that throw, and a really bad effort by Perriman and a great effort by the CB.

Isn't that the "sore shoulder" game?

[FloridalovesRavens]

  3 hours ago, Mahatma_Sloth said:

  4 hours ago, Crusader said:

Before Flacco's contract ,from 2008 to 2011 44 wins and 20 . After the contract 2012 to 2016 , 41 wins and 37.....Nothing to see here.Move on.

2008 - 2011: 1 OC .  2012 - 2016: 5 OC  I found something to see here

Typical reply from a Flacco apologist. The dude has been a starting QB in the NFL for 9 years, and still makes rookie mistakes. Just accept it, for God's sake. You don't need an OC to know not to throw off of your back foot, or to throw a "no look" pass to the wrong team when you're on the opponent's 11 yard line, with a 10 point lead with 6+ minutes to go. What Flacco needs is logic; and this has alluded him for quite some time.

Wait, wait, wait...I know what your argument is; so I'll do it for you: "Remember the 2012 playoffs? He is a super bowl MVP, you know."

Save it.

Typical comment from a Flacco hater. Let's face it shall we. You will never appreciate any thing he does and will nit pick him to the end of time. Save it.

[Rav'n Maniac]

Well it's over and we managed to put another notch on the barrel. Time to clean our guns, reload and and delve into the next one against our arch-nemesis.

I would have happily taken more wins this year but, you couldn't write a better ending with what we are facing. Win the next two and we deserve to be in.

[RavensDieHard21]

23 hours ago, hereweare said:

For sure. Harbs avoids guys with baggage or even mild character concerns though

Ya they are cautious with them, but it wasn't like it was domestic violence or a habitual dope smoker lol. Spence may only have 5.5 sacks, but that is 5.5 more than Correa. I watched him v the Cowboys and we was even given Tyron Smith a tough time with his speed 

[RavensDieHard21]

22 hours ago, TheRavengers said:

I've been wondering for a while what is Correa's issue right now?

Not 100% sure but I'm sure he is just too raw or isn't better than Judon or McClellan in order to suit up on defense and isn't able to make ST. 

[Crusader]

  21 hours ago, metalraven said:

  22 hours ago, Mahatma_Sloth said:

  22 hours ago, Crusader said:

Before Flacco's contract ,from 2008 to 2011 44 wins and 20 . After the contract 2012 to 2016 , 41 wins and 37.....Nothing to see here.Move on.

2008 - 2011: 1 OC .  2012 - 2016: 5 OC  I found something to see here

Typical reply from a Flacco apologist. The dude has been a starting QB in the NFL for 9 years, and still makes rookie mistakes. Just accept it, for God's sake. You don't need an OC to know not to throw off of your back foot, or to throw a "no look" pass to the wrong team when you're on the opponent's 11 yard line, with a 10 point lead with 6+ minutes to go. What Flacco needs is logic; and this has alluded him for quite some time.

Wait, wait, wait...I know what your argument is; so I'll do it for you: "Remember the 2012 playoffs? He is a super bowl MVP, you know."

Save it.

Typical comment from a Flacco hater. Let's face it shall we. You will never appreciate any thing he does and will nit pick him to the end of time. Save it.

Not sure how pointing out bad technique skills are"Flacco Hater" comments but the "elite" status has definitely gone out the window for NOW. Just remember “One ‘aw, crap’ wipes out a ten ‘attaboys‘“

[The Mom Gene]

Exactly.  Stanley and Yanda are fine... When you give a player an 80 rating, does that take penalties into account? 

http://russellstreetreport.com/2016/11/23/filmstudy/jeremy-zuttah-penalties-costly-dallas/

http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2016/11/21/13692810/ravens-must-evaluate-center-position

 

Both of these articles talk about what I have said.

 

[billiejean]

Exactly.  Stanley and Yanda are fine... When you give a player an 80 rating, does that take penalties into account? 

http://russellstreetreport.com/2016/11/23/filmstudy/jeremy-zuttah-penalties-costly-dallas/

http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2016/11/21/13692810/ravens-must-evaluate-center-position

 

Both of these articles talk about what I have said.

 

Where did penalties come from? I could be overlooking something but I don't see penalties mentioned anywhere in your comment (posted above). I was specifically responding to your perception that Zuttah has been constantly pushed back into Joe, which just isn't true. When you have been one of the top 5 offensive players on the team for 7 of the last 10 weeks youre playing pretty well. The penalties that you mentioned "False starts... illegal formation" are rarely if ever called on the center and Zuttah has not been flaged for either of those infractions this season. And you are right penalties are "drive killers" but Zuttah has been responsible for just as many drive killers as Marshall Yanda has had this year. That said, for the first 4 games of the season Zuttah was not playing great football, and in ONE of those games he was pushed back and tripped Joe, on two separate occasions. I am not making excuses for the guy but during those first 4 games there was a revolving door at the two guard positions because of injuries. And in those instances there are bound to be some mistakes because they aren't used to playing together. We actually had a very similar conversation in week 4 except for the fact that we were talking about Yanda instead of Zuttah. You thought that he wasn't performing as well as he has in the past and I was trying to convince you that he was playing extremely well. But even when provided with quantitative (he was rated as the best guard in the league for all four of those games) data that went against your perception, it did little to change your mind. A similar scenario happened earlier this week in the J. Smith debate. In order to get to bottom of the debate someone took the time to crunch the numbers. Then the guy clearly stated how he calculated the data, but you refused to acknowledge it. In light of these two prior instances it was probably a bit foolish for me to even write reply to your comment because it won't change your thinking. I mean, if I can't convince you that Yanda is playing well, there is no way that I can make you think that Zuttah is playing well.

[bozo]

joe flacco is the biggest disappointment on the team, he consistently make mistakes in the scoring zone I really believe if we had a better quarterback we would win this division easily. he is terrible out of the pocket. hes not worth 20 million 7 or 8 million is about what he should make and we can use the money to buy other players around him.

[billiejean]

Exactly.  Stanley and Yanda are fine... When you give a player an 80 rating, does that take penalties into account? 

http://russellstreetreport.com/2016/11/23/filmstudy/jeremy-zuttah-penalties-costly-dallas/

http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2016/11/21/13692810/ravens-must-evaluate-center-position

 

Both of these articles talk about what I have said.

 

both of thsoe articles are talking about a single game and this is no excuse but two of the penalites against him during that game were bogus. He had three penalties that game but he has only had 5 penalties for the entire season. And I mentioned in my response Marshall Yanda has had just as many drive killing penalties as Zuttah. So if that is the only reason you think hes not playing well than Marshall not be playing well either. But what is it with the penalties thing do I have to show you your original comment again. Here it is.

"It's not Stanley or Yanda that I have a problem with... It's the Center and the other side..... Those guys are doing a great job of keeping people off of Joe. Zuttah is constantly being pushed back into Joe."

And I am going to sound like a broken record but my comment was a rebuttle about "Zuttah constantly being pushed back" In no part of your comment were penalties mentioned.

Penalties did come up in your reply to my comment about JZ not playing poorly and here that is.

"It's the penalties billiejean. They're drive killers. False starts... illegal formation."

I was a bit confused when you changed the subject and started talking about penalties. So in my reply I had to touch on the issue because the only penalties that you did list were penalties that centers dont get flagged for. You totally changed the subject bring up penalties and then you mentioned two penalties that dont get called on centers. It was a double whammy of confusion. I will say that there is no question in my mind that Zuttah cost us the Dallas game but it was one game. It really doesn't matter at the end of the day but two of the penalites were bogus.

The article below has a video of one of them and above the video the writer questions the call. I cant find any video of the other one at the moment. The video is under Item number 6.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Late-For-Work-1121-Eight-Takeaways-After-Cowboys-Beat-Ravens/65888879-6fdb-45a0-97cb-f528ce9bd55c

[The Mom Gene]

5 hours ago, billiejean said:

both of thsoe articles are talking about a single game and this is no excuse but two of the penalites against him during that game were bogus. He had three penalties that game but he has only had 5 penalties for the entire season. And I mentioned in my response Marshall Yanda has had just as many drive killing penalties as Zuttah. So if that is the only reason you think hes not playing well than Marshall not be playing well either. But what is it with the penalties thing do I have to show you your original comment again. Here it is.

"It's not Stanley or Yanda that I have a problem with... It's the Center and the other side..... Those guys are doing a great job of keeping people off of Joe. Zuttah is constantly being pushed back into Joe."

And I am going to sound like a broken record but my comment was a rebuttle about "Zuttah constantly being pushed back" In no part of your comment were penalties mentioned.

Penalties did come up in your reply to my comment about JZ not playing poorly and here that is.

"It's the penalties billiejean. They're drive killers. False starts... illegal formation."

I was a bit confused when you changed the subject and started talking about penalties. So in my reply I had to touch on the issue because the only penalties that you did list were penalties that centers dont get flagged for. You totally changed the subject bring up penalties and then you mentioned two penalties that dont get called on centers. It was a double whammy of confusion. I will say that there is no question in my mind that Zuttah cost us the Dallas game but it was one game. It really doesn't matter at the end of the day but two of the penalites were bogus.

The article below has a video of one of them and above the video the writer questions the call. I cant find any video of the other one at the moment. The video is under Item number 6.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Late-For-Work-1121-Eight-Takeaways-After-Cowboys-Beat-Ravens/65888879-6fdb-45a0-97cb-f528ce9bd55c

I'm not going to respond to your entire post, because the second article clearly doesn't.  It refers to his consistent problems he's had.  I'm done arguing about it.

 

But, in case you just missed this part... 

"Going all the way back to Week 1, his performance against the Buffalo Bills was shaky at best. Since then, his poor play has been masked by the offensive line regressing as a unit, but on a day when the left and right sides both were solid, Zuttah’s struggles were on full display.

 

If he can't turn it around soon, the Ravens may want to look for some fresh blood at the position in order to protect Joe Flacco, and also find some consistency in the running game. In the meantime, head coach John Harbaugh would be wise to challenge Zuttah to play with some more discipline.

If he doesn't, the Ravens can expect more of the same from what is proving to be a pitiful offensive unit.

 

[metalraven]

On 12/19/2016 at 2:47 PM, callahan09 said:

Is that a fact?  His interception yesterday WAS a bad play by Flacco.  But I don't believe it's at all typical of the kind of interceptions he throws.  It's not a typical play from him at all.  If you think it is, then go pull up the tape and explain it with the evidence.

Flacco's interception vs New England: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016121200/2016/REG14/ravens@patriots/watch#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000756140&tab=videos

Observe at 25 seconds, the ball goes right threw Wallace's arms, he definitely should have caught this ball and it should not have been an interception.  This was an interception because the receiver misplayed the ball.

vs Miami: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016120401/2016/REG13/dolphins@ravens#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000750510&tab=videos

Wallace doesn't come back for the ball, doesn't even attempt to make a play at the ball.  He misplays it and just stands there and watches it sail past his head on the way to an INT.  This is also intercepted only because the receiver misplayed it.  (That's two INTs in a row that were the fault of Wallace misplaying the ball).

 

vs Cincy: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016112701/2016/REG12/bengals@ravens#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000746511&tab=videos

Pass deflected by a D-lineman who got his hands up on it, intercepted off the deflection.  That's not a "terrible decision" interception, either. Just bad luck.

vs Dallas: No interceptions

I just looked at the past 5 games, that's 200 pass attempts and 4 interceptions, and only his final pass of the Eagles game was an example of a "terrible decision", the other 3 weren't really his fault.

Now I'll be more than fair and keep looking to see what we've got out of him this year... Next up is the Browns game:

1st INT vs Browns: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016111000/2016/REG10/browns@ravens#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000737347&tab=videos

He throws up a pass to a single covered SSR.  That's not a "terrible decision".  It's intercepted for multiple reasons: Great CB coverage, first of all (which you claimed is not usually a reason for his passes being picked off), a great play to catch the ball by that CB, and let's not forget, yet another WR misplay by SSR.  He inexplicably just completely gave up on the route and let the CB have the only play at the ball for no good reason and we paid the price because of it.

2nd INT vs Browns: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016111000/2016/REG10/browns@ravens#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000737408&tab=videos

This is probably the next most recent example of a bad decision.  He tries to make a play, scrambles out of the pocket and throws the ball on the move, and Hayden picks him off.  It's nowhere near as egregious as the Eagles interception.  But it's definitely Joe's fault, but aided by the fact that the pocket collapsed and he had to run for his life and was trying to make a play, but a bad effort.  This is the 2nd INT that was primarily Joe's fault, he should have just thrown it away.

vs Steelers: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016110601/2016/REG9/steelers@ravens#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000734245&tab=videos

He has to escape from the pocket again and tries to throw to the middle of the field while on the move, and it's just a bad effort.  This is another one that's his fault, but of course it's also another example of him having to run for his life when the pocket collapses and he tries to make a play, but made a big mistake again.  

This is the 3rd that was primarily Joe's fault, he should have thrown it away.  But both this and the one above against the Browns were still great defensive plays.

 NEITHER OF THESE is the kind of play that happened against the Eagles, where a defender was just sitting there on the route waiting for him to throw it in his lane, and Joe had plenty of time to read the field but inexplicably didn't see him and threw it anyway.  That was the kind of thing you're trying to say is emblematic of Joe's interceptions?  Still haven't seen another one this season like it and I've looked at each INT back to the bye week, because both this one vs the Steelers and the one vs the Browns were great defensive plays, Joe didn't have time and was disrupted and couldn't set his feet for the throw, so it's entirely different than the just plain bad decision and easy (not even noteworthy) play by the defender like in that Eagles INT.

Let's keep going...

1st INT vs Jets: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016102306/2016/REG7/ravens@jets#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000726031&tab=videos

This is not a bad decision, it's a great play by the safety and a bad overthrow by Flacco, but the decision to go there isn't really the issue.  This is the 4th INT that's all on Joe (counting the one vs the Eagles, and one each against the Steelers and Browns) (this one is in my opinion the second most to-blame for him, because he had time to set his feet and step into that throw, and just made a really bad throw, there's literally no-one to blame but him on this one, so it's not like you can just say that he made a mistake because of the pressure like on the two I described above).

2nd INT vs Jets: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016102306/2016/REG7/ravens@jets#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000726468&tab=videos

This is also a good decision, but yeah not a great throw, and a terrible route by Perriman who was supposed to come back for this but let himself get beat inside to have that ball taken away.  This one doesn't fit the narrative that Joe makes terrible decisions and CB's don't make special plays on the ball to pick him off.  This was the right decision to make that throw, and a really bad effort by Perriman and a great effort by the CB.

The next 3 games in a row going back, he threw 0 picks.

1st pick vs Jags: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016092504/2016/REG3/ravens@jaguars#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000708976&tab=videos

Pitta and Flacco are not on the same page about what route Pitta's running here, thus the ball ends up way behind him.  It still took an absurd diving effort from the defender to tip the ball into the air, and then a dumb lucky situation where another defender is back there to catch it for an interception.  Just bad luck.

2nd pick vs Jags: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016092504/2016/REG3/ravens@jaguars#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000709006&tab=videos

The ball is deflected at the line of scrimmage, and Forsett also misplays it in the air and a great defensive play leads to the interception.  This also just bad luck.

So that's 2 interceptions in one game, both are ridiculously unlucky for Flacco that they were picked off.

There's only two more picks left to look at, in the first Browns game:

1st INT vs Browns: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016091801/2016/REG2/ravens@browns#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000704251&tab=videos

First of all, it's a fine read and an excellent play by Joe Hayden to intercept this ball.  Secondly, it looks to me like SSR messes up this route at the end of it.  It looks to me like he gave up on this one, similar to that one in the other Browns game that I discussed above.  When he cuts out of his route it looks like he's on a a straight line to where Flacco threw the ball to, but SSR ends up trailing off at the end of the route and doesn't wind up at that spot.  I think if SSR had committed to this route it would have been a great completion, actually.

2nd INT vs Browns: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2016091801/2016/REG2/ravens@browns#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000704509&tab=videos

This throw it definitely not great, it needed to be more to the sideline over Perriman's right shoulder.  It was too inside, giving Hayden a chance to make a play on it.  But once again, it's a good read, a good decision, and a good play by the CB that leads to it being an interception on an imperfectly thrown ball.  This doesn't fit your narrative of Flacco throwing INTs on terrible reads and it not necessarily being good CB coverage.  This is *FANTASTIC* CB coverage and a great play on the ball.  And Perriman's 2nd career game and he could have probably done something to break this pass up anyway, but didn't.

 

So breaking all that down, I count 3 just plain unlucky interceptions (all deflected and then intercepted), 3 clear and obvious WR misplays that are not at all Flacco's fault, 3 more where it was a great defensive play and the WR didn't play it optimally and could have prevented an interception, 1 clear overthrow but not a bad decision, 2 ill-advised attempts to make a play and throw the ball while scrambling outside the pocket, and then that pass in the Eagles game where he just never saw the linebacker sitting there waiting to jump the throw.

So I'd say that 6 of his 13 interceptions are essentially not his fault at all and should not have been intercepted, 3 more were not bad decisions and were great defensive plays coupled with poor efforts by the WR and probably shouldn't have been intercepted, and then 4 that were clearly Joe's fault, but only a grand total of ONE of them fits the mold of just being a plain old poor read and failure at scanning the field when he had time in the pocket.  ONE more was him making a poor throw that had no chance to be anything other than interception, while he had plenty of time in the pocket.  And the final two were just screw-ups while running for his life and trying to make something out of nothing and it ended up not working out.

If you ask me, Flacco's decision making has been very safe and sound this year, with really the only poor decisions being the Eagles INT and the two interceptions where he shouldn't have forced the ball while scrambling and instead just thrown it away.  One really bad throw that had no chance and was 0% the fault of the receiver.

 

Wow. Look at all those interceptions you listed. I rest my case. You're pathetic.

[metalraven]

On 12/19/2016 at 4:14 PM, FloridalovesRavens said:

Typical comment from a Flacco hater. Let's face it shall we. You will never appreciate any thing he does and will nit pick him to the end of time. Save it.

I don't "hate" Flacco. Come up with a better word for it. I'm a realist. I don't have a #5 jersey and Flacco pajamas like you do, buddy. He's not great, and he's not the worst. I call it like I see it, that's all. You and a few others on here always "boohooing" every time someone says something negative about your buddy, Joe Flacco.

How about you face the fact that he's just mediocre. Sometimes he does great things, sometimes he does incredibly stupid things. You can reference 2012 all you want, but I'll reference a 9 year career...the big picture. So quit crying as if someone is attacking you personally.

[January J]

12 minutes ago, metalraven said:

Wow. Look at all those interceptions you listed. I rest my case. You're pathetic.

Well somebody's not in the Christmas spirit. Maybe you should be like Steve and learn a lesson from thumper off Bambi. 

[metalraven]

53 minutes ago, January J said:

Well somebody's not in the Christmas spirit. Maybe you should be like Steve and learn a lesson from thumper off Bambi. 

LOL. Nice.