Week 14: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly discussion/rant Patriots edition

[-Truth-]

3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I personally think the injury thing is a bit overblown. For starters, in reference to the 2014 team, the IR list was a lot more "quantity" than it was "quality".

Jimmy still played the 1st half of the season (8 games), and Wagner played the first 11 games. So you're getting a half a season or more out of both of those guys. 

Sure, we lost five corners to IR. And among them were guys like Danny Gorrer, Asa Jackson, Tramain Jacobs, and Aaron Ross... not exactly world beaters. Maybe they were a little better than somebody like Rashaan Melvin, but its not that far off. 

The reality of injuries is simple... good teams can overcome most injuries. An injury to somebody like Flacco is a death blow, but the 2014 team is proof enough that you can win playoff games without your best corner and your two starting tackles. 

Heck, the 2012 Ravens that won a SB got only 6 games from Lardarius Webb (our best corner), we were missing Suggs for 8 games (coming off a major injury after being the DPOY), and we played 10 games without Ray Lewis. At one stretch, we played three straight games without Ray or Ellerbe (who was playing great at the time). And we still managed to win a SB. 

 

Fair point about quantity in terms of the I.R. player, but my points were mainly referring to the playoff teams. Gorrer played well to my recollection, so I saw him as an upgrade over Melvin, but while Smith was the main focus of that group, the rest of the group weren't world beaters to your point.

That being said, Webb struggled in his six games stretch in '12. Corey Graham was arguably our best CB at the time and he started throughout each of the four postseason appearances that year. Suggs is an interesting point. On paper, it seemed like an inevitable boost, but he had a tough stretch after rushing back to return and he wasn't much of a factor until the playoffs. He amassed more hits and sacks in those four games than he did in his previous eight. We mostly relied on Kruger for the outside pressure from the onset of the year. We lost all three games without Ellerbe and we were' 5-1 during the stretch with Ray Lewis in the line up, meaning we went 5-5 without him. He was active during Week 17, but we played back ups that against Cincinnati in order to rest our starters as we whimpered into the playoffs. We did win the SuperBowl, but those two were on the field during that run. With regards to your example, we gave up 29 PPG without Lewis and Ellerbe in that 0-3 stretch. I'm not attempting to draw a direct parallel to those being the exact reasons as to why we lost, but they aid the notion that overcoming key injuries may be less likely than not. I also have a difficult time looking at our title run and pointing out what injuries were covered for considering that Joe Flacco had a historic stretch in every sense of the word. Such a stretch may not come around from any QB for years or even decades, so it doesn't help weigh that scenario on the same scale among the others.

With regards to the loss of Smith during '14, we transformed into a porous passing defense after his loss. 14 of the 22 passing TDs we allowed came in the latter 8 weeks. We gave up 5 more PPG. We also surrendered 265.1 passing yards per game in that stretch, which would've been good for 2nd worst in the league despite facing 3 backup quarterbacks. We got away with it in the regular season, and you can mostly certainly make up for losses of players by having other facets mask their absences, so I agree with you there, especially in the general sense. But in this specific example, going into Foxborough and holding up against Tom Brady and the New England offense with your 7th best corner, while possible, is at best implausible, especially with how well they go after weaknesses. We were forced to rack up 31 points just to lose. In retrospect, part of it definitely falls on the FO considering that we were already thin coming into the '14 season, and Smith's injury history wasn't promising. That's one of the few understandable gripes from that season. But there aren't many losses where you can look at a single position and point the finger, and we had a single corner account for almost half of their completions, more than half of their passing yardage and half of their passing TDs, including the game-winner to Brandon LaFell. In this scenario, I do feel like injuries are to blame, at least to a degree, and I do feel that we had a decent chance of running the table with Smith in the line up, meaning that Pollard's point about the '12 departures hurting us doesn't seem to apply considering that we were fairly close in '14 to another title run.

[-Truth-]

2 hours ago, kjbmore said:

How about the other half of the comment - now HE has to coach and he can't or something along those lines.

Jury's out, see how we finish up this season but other than 2014 - we're not doing much since all those guys retired and we're burning through high draft picks, surely the coach has some input into who we draft.

Yes half our team was injured last year but we were still losing - before we lost everybody and the fact we are so exposed by key injuries is also an indictment on the front office and the coaching staff, no forward planning, so heavily dependent on key players - Freakin patriots shipped out their 2 best players on defence lost 2 studs on Offense and still whooped us.

We could of grabbed Dwight Freeney last year after Suggs went down, we grabbed Jason Babin, who's the genius making these decisions - maybe they wanted better draft positioning.

What does that point even imply, that he wasn't required to coach before? The finish to this season can help change perspectives, I agree. But let's look at where we were in '12 and '14 around this point. We were 9-5 in '12 with two games remaining. We were 9-5 in '14 and we needed help from San Diego along with a win against Cleveland to make the postseason. Even in '13, we were 8-6 with two games remaining. It didn't seem that we were close last year regardless of the injuries, so we agree there, but 14 of our 16 games were within a single touchdown, 2 of which came after we lost our starting QB, RB and WR. Our biggest loss this season came by 10 points. That's not a coincidence as far as the managing by the HC goes. Is John Harbaugh a brilliant X's and O's coach? No. But neither are some of the better HCs around, and it's not as if his level of input has changed since the SuperBowl. We've been in control of our destiny in all but one year since the SuperBowl with just a couple of games remaining. It'd obviously be preferable if it wasn't as close, but I'd take that level of control at the beginning of every year.

I've never understood the divide of specific parts of the draft when referencing the performance of the FO. Ronnie Stanley and C.J. Mosley have earned their keep. Same goes for Timmy Jernigan. Breshad Perriman has flashed despite missing his only two offseasons. We've went through injuries with the likes of Bronson Kaufusi and Perriman. Are we going to have situations where we make selections that aren't deemed favorably? Of course. I was personally puzzled by the fact that we went with Kamalei Correa over the likes of Cody Whitehair. But that happens to literally every team. Separating each selection or acquisition by a specific group glazes over what we've done as a whole. Kenneth Dixon and Tavon Young may be the future of their positions on our team. Matt Judon has flashed considerably and could be our starting OLB next season. Alex Lewis and John Urschel will likely be key reserves. We've brought in the likes of Michael Pierce and Zach Orr via the UDFA. Even in the draft where we blew our first few like in '13, we brought in Brandon Williams, Kyle Juszczyk and Ricky Wagner with almost consecutive picks. The same goes for the FA. I personally wanted Freeny over Babin, but I was in the minority. I recall that most members who posted their opinions were pleased with the acquisition of Babin considering that he was applying pressure with the Jets the year before. That being said, we've struck gold via FA more times than not, and we're arguably one of the best teams in amassing players from the bargain bin who perform well for us. As far as the recent one goes, Eric Weddle may be the best acquisition of the entire offseason. Mike Wallace has been a pleasant surprise to a lot of fans, myself included. Singling out Babin alone doesn't do our FO justice by any means. We currently have the 4th best ranked defense. 7 of our 11 defensive starters were brought in within the last 3 years. Timmy Jenigan, Brandon Williams, Lawrence Guy, C.J. Mosley, Zach Orr, Tavon Young and Eric Weddle fall into that group. Elvis Dumervil falls just out of that range at 4 years. 8 of our 11 offensive starters have landed on this team no longer than 3 years ago. Can't exactly complain about the team turnover after the SuperBowl.

Edited December 15, 2016 by -Truth-

[redrum52]

http://www.csnmidatlantic.com/baltimore-ravens/harbaugh-says-ravens-hurry-offense-needs-get-faster

 

Something here doesn't make sense.

[kjbmore]

1 hour ago, -Truth- said:

What does that point even imply, that he wasn't required to coach before? The finish to this season can help change perspectives, I agree. But let's look at where we were in '12 and '14 around this point. We were 9-5 in '12 with two games remaining. We were 9-5 in '14 and we needed help from San Diego along with a win against Cleveland to make the postseason. Even in '13, we were 8-6 with two games remaining. It didn't seem that we were close last year regardless of the injuries, so we agree there, but 14 of our 16 games were within a single touchdown, 2 of which came after we lost our starting QB, RB and WR. Our biggest loss this season came by 10 points. That's not a coincidence as far as the managing by the HC goes. Is John Harbaugh a brilliant X's and O's coach? No. But neither are some of the better HCs around, and it's not as if his level of input has changed since the SuperBowl. We've been in control of our destiny in all but one year since the SuperBowl with just a couple of games remaining. It'd obviously be preferable if it wasn't as close, but I'd take that level of control at the beginning of every year.

I've never understood the divide of specific parts of the draft when referencing the performance of the FO. Ronnie Stanley and C.J. Mosley have earned their keep. Same goes for Timmy Jernigan. Breshad Perriman has flashed despite missing his only two offseasons. We've went through injuries with the likes of Bronson Kaufusi and Perriman. Are we going to have situations where we make selections that aren't deemed favorably? Of course. I was personally puzzled by the fact that we went with Kamalei Correa over the likes of Cody Whitehair. But that happens to literally every team. Separating each selection or acquisition by a specific group glazes over what we've done as a whole. Kenneth Dixon and Tavon Young may be the future of their positions on our team. Matt Judon has flashed considerably and could be our starting OLB next season. Alex Lewis and John Urschel will likely be key reserves. We've brought in the likes of Michael Pierce and Zach Orr via the UDFA. Even in the draft where we blew our first few like in '13, we brought in Brandon Williams, Kyle Juszczyk and Ricky Wagner with almost consecutive picks. The same goes for the FA. I personally wanted Freeny over Babin, but I was in the minority. I recall that most members who posted their opinions were pleased with the acquisition of Babin considering that he was applying pressure with the Jets the year before. That being said, we've struck gold via FA more times than not, and we're arguably one of the best teams in amassing players from the bargain bin who perform well for us. As far as the recent one goes, Eric Weddle may be the best acquisition of the entire offseason. Mike Wallace has been a pleasant surprise to a lot of fans, myself included. Singling out Babin alone doesn't do our FO justice by any means. We currently have the 4th best ranked defense. 7 of our 11 defensive starters were brought in within the last 3 years. Timmy Jenigan, Brandon Williams, Lawrence Guy, C.J. Mosley, Zach Orr, Tavon Young and Eric Weddle fall into that group. Elvis Dumervil falls just out of that range at 4 years. 8 of our 11 offensive starters have landed on this team no longer than 3 years ago. Can't exactly complain about the team turnover after the SuperBowl.

I'm pretty sure it implies that the Ravens players were essentially coaching themselves.

With the likes of Lewis, Ngata, Suggs, Reed on defense and guys like Boldin and Ray Rice on Offense.

anyway yada, yada, yada results speak most clearly - see what the rest of the season tells us

[arnie_uk]

6 hours ago, redrum52 said:

http://www.csnmidatlantic.com/baltimore-ravens/harbaugh-says-ravens-hurry-offense-needs-get-faster

 

Something here doesn't make sense.

So both qb and head coach know we need to go faster but neither did anything. Maybe the one guy who remains silent, the man calling the plays, is to blame? He might take to Long getting them in

[Rav'n Maniac]

6 hours ago, arnie_uk said:

So both qb and head coach know we need to go faster but neither did anything. Maybe the one guy who remains silent, the man calling the plays, is to blame? He might take to Long getting them in

If that's the case, maybe Flacco should be calling his own plays in the 2 minute at the los. They can formulate a grouping of plays in advance for that type of situation and in a loud environment, they could easily use hand signals.

[rmcjacket23]

On 12/13/2016 at 7:32 PM, omar586 said:

i loved kubes offense, it was unstoppable in the running game, anyone can run in that ZBS, and he was creative. this offense looks like they;re playing to lose the game or something

You might want to take a look at last years and this years Broncos offense. Kind of blows those theories to pieces.

[VermontRaven]

4 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

You might want to take a look at last years and this years Broncos offense. Kind of blows those theories to pieces.

Excellent point.  Plus, I think the new rules on chop blocks have really hampered the ZBS. 

We are definitely trying to figure out our offensive identity.  Hopefully, Marty can figure some things out and make us respectable for the rest of the year.  Then, hopefully we can find someone to bring in as OC next year that can jumpstart this offense.  I had hopes that Mary would be the long-term solution at OC, but now I am not seeing it that way.

[rmw10]

1 minute ago, VermontRaven said:

Excellent point.  Plus, I think the new rules on chop blocks have really hampered the ZBS. 

We are definitely trying to figure out our offensive identity.  Hopefully, Marty can figure some things out and make us respectable for the rest of the year.  Then, hopefully we can find someone to bring in as OC next year that can jumpstart this offense.  I had hopes that Mary would be the long-term solution at OC, but now I am not seeing it that way.

There seems to be a disconnect between Joe and Marty, which isn't a surprise because there was a disconnect between Joe and Marc as well.  Marc and Marty are running pretty much the same offense.

[Drew P]

6 hours ago, arnie_uk said:

So both qb and head coach know we need to go faster but neither did anything. Maybe the one guy who remains silent, the man calling the plays, is to blame? He might take to Long getting them in

Come on lets stop defending the guy making the big $$$ this is on Joe. These slugs have always dragged their butts in crunch time.

How many games could have been won this year on the final drive with the slightest sense of urgency?

[usmccharles]

6 hours ago, Drew P said:

Come on lets stop defending the guy making the big $$$ this is on Joe. These slugs have always dragged their butts in crunch time.

How many games could have been won this year on the final drive with the slightest sense of urgency?

I don't know, how many? 

[Drew P]

Looks like NE nabbed Floyd off of waivers

[RavensPunkXVX]

1 minute ago, Drew P said:

Looks like NE nabbed Floyd off of waivers

Saw that one coming. And brought in Hester for a work out.

[-Truth-]

19 hours ago, kjbmore said:

I'm pretty sure it implies that the Ravens players were essentially coaching themselves.

With the likes of Lewis, Ngata, Suggs, Reed on defense and guys like Boldin and Ray Rice on Offense.

anyway yada, yada, yada results speak most clearly - see what the rest of the season tells us

Which is an asinine assertion. No successful team has a structure wherein the players coach themselves and the HC simply takes the credit, certainly not one winning a SuperBowl. What's the connection here, that the mere presence of players with leadership skills correlates to lower levels of involvement of the coach? Lewis was a generational leader, there's no question there. But only 2 of those 6 players were on our '14 roster and we were a few plays short of another AFC Championship reunion at Denver. Eric Weddle has clear leadership ability and is currently captaining the defense. By that thought process, is he essentially coaching the defense? Let's get real. This process is so broken, even Blake Bortles wouldn't use it as a throwing motion.

[Militant X 1]

12 minutes ago, Drew P said:

Looks like NE nabbed Floyd off of waivers

So, the evil empire strikes again huh? 

[Tank 92]

14 hours ago, arnie_uk said:

So both qb and head coach know we need to go faster but neither did anything. Maybe the one guy who remains silent, the man calling the plays, is to blame? He might take to Long getting them in

IDK....A couple of times the O line, and maybe specifically Zuttah, seemed confused on their scheme, took a long time to get in stance.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 2:23 PM, FlocksGottaFeed said:

Good observation Arnie. Yes I'm (painfully) aware that it was 3rd and 4, but that's why you just ground it - less risk. It is always much better to ground the ball at an eligible receivers foot when you're in a 'dead play' situation than to take a sack. You just don't lose yards on sacks alone. You tend to lose game momentum, create more uncertainty on the line, risk QB injury and give your opponent more fire.

We simply had the wrong play at the wrong time and were fortunate we didn't get our QB injured and have an elite kicker that could at the very least still get points out of the drive. Just saying - we got completely out-schemed on that play. Have to give credit were credit when it's do. The 'Empire' won this episode.

Good post! To his credit. Joe was trying to make a play. To his detriment, he didn't scamper to buy time. Taking the sack for a loss was the worst thing he could have done. So, I agree with you.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 1:39 PM, Tank 92 said:

Perfect illustration why passes are often thrown to receivers short of the sticks.

One thing you failed to mention though! If you look at the still picture, where's the pocket? I see 5 Ravens blocking 2 Patriots and 1 Raven blocking 3 Pats. That leaves Ninkovich a clear lane unimpeded to Joe. Textbook blocking. Yep, Joe should have thrown it away but the picture is worth a thousand words and is indicative of a much bigger problem.

[Tank 92]

2 minutes ago, frozen joe flacco fan said:

One thing you failed to mention though! If you look at the still picture, where's the pocket? I see 5 Ravens blocking 2 Patriots and 1 Raven blocking 3 Pats. That leaves Ninkovich a clear lane unimpeded to Joe. Textbook blocking. Yep, Joe should have thrown it away but the picture is worth a thousand words and is indicative of a much bigger problem.

yeah, that had been commented on by numerous posts. I was more wanting to point out the fact that the DBs often defend the sticks and it is also often that there is the need to throw short and get YAC to pick up the first down.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

On 12/12/2016 at 11:55 PM, ratedr said:

Whoever is responsible for the Elam pick really should be fired. Amazing how badly that one bust has damaged us. Granted, that entire first round class was pretty bad.

Um, Elam was the last pick in the first round and the Ravens didn't trade up to pick anybody else before him. If you are talking about the draft class as a whole I think you should look back over some of the names in that first round. There are a lot of good players in it. Elam isn't one of them.

[flynismo]

On 12/14/2016 at 1:43 PM, Drew P said:

Correct, they abandoned under center snaps when Morningwood took over calling the check downs.

 

 

[EdTheMythicalOne]

The Good: Special Teams caused two fumbles which led to points for us that made the game look a lot closer than what it really was.

The Bad: I could write a novel here.

The Ugly: I could again write a novel.

1) The playcalling. What in the heck? Am I correct in that they ran the ball a whopping 5 times in the first HALF? Not the first quarter, but the first half! That alone sets you up for failure. At what point do you recognize what the other team is doing to you and you game plan against it?

2) The special teams: Letting a man block a field goal right over the middle. How does that happen? Devin Hester looking he not only has lost a step, but lost any idea of how to return kicks and punts.

3) The defense: Once again we lose Jimmy Smith and we find out how good he actually is and/or just how important he is to our scheme.

4) Clock Management: You are down by 7, driving down the field, you take forever and a day to kick a field goal KNOWING you need another posession and a TD to win it. So what do you do? Give your team almost no time to work with even if they had recovered the onside kick. What on Earth?

I am trying not to let the emotion of just how bad this team looked weigh on me, but the Patriots literally looked like they were toying with us. Like I said, you take away those turnovers on special teams they had and it could have been a blow out loss.

[kjbmore]

3 hours ago, -Truth- said:

Which is an asinine assertion. No successful team has a structure wherein the players coach themselves and the HC simply takes the credit, certainly not one winning a SuperBowl. What's the connection here, that the mere presence of players with leadership skills correlates to lower levels of involvement of the coach? Lewis was a generational leader, there's no question there. But only 2 of those 6 players were on our '14 roster and we were a few plays short of another AFC Championship reunion at Denver. Eric Weddle has clear leadership ability and is currently captaining the defense. By that thought process, is he essentially coaching the defense? Let's get real. This process is so broken, even Blake Bortles wouldn't use it as a throwing motion.

Yeah pretty sure lots of successful teams have players who essentially coach themselves and make adjustments as they see fit, sometimes you just need to give general direction and point people on their way, what's an audible - is that not a player coaching themselves and those around them, does a defense change their alignment or look at the los, do players sometimes do that all by themselves

Coach themselves to the extent they know which adjustments need to be made in game, recognise where they need to be etc is that such a hard concept to grasp - that HOF players on all levels of that defense could go out there and communicate amongst themselves and be proactive without having to be instructed by a coach?? Hence coaching ones self or teammates around you.

In 2014 Kubiak was coaching the Offense and guess what?? the defense couldn't defend 2 14 point leads when it mattered - get burnt once yeah but twice 

anyhow let's see what magic Harbs can break out for the rest of the season, time to do some coaching

 

 

 

[ravensdfan]

On 12/13/2016 at 8:42 PM, Militant X 1 said:

 

That somebody was me and I stand by it.  

I see plenty of space in general. Perhaps my perspective is based upon my love for mobile QB's who wouldn't have waited for the pocket to collapse like that before taking off?  Any way you see it..it's bad!

I actually had no idea who had said it. I can see the lane you're speaking of but, I just don't see that he gets even 2 steps before there's a Patriot there to flatten him.

 

[Militant X 1]

3 hours ago, ravensdfan said:

I actually had no idea who had said it. I can see the lane you're speaking of but, I just don't see that he gets even 2 steps before there's a Patriot there to flatten him.

 

Maybe he doesn't.  Maybe no one could have.  I just mentioned it in reference to perhaps my love for mobile QB's.  No biggie.

[ravensnj]

The good: Confirmed Dixon and Boyle are our future on Offense.

The bad: We need corners, wide receivers, and  pass rushers....yada, yada...yada. Same old story for years now.

The Ugly: Offensive play calling, whereas, when play calling appears to be working we can't keep the rhythm for more than one series. 

[usmccharles]

27 minutes ago, ravensnj said:

The good: Confirmed Dixon and Boyle are our future on Offense.

The bad: We need corners, wide receivers, and  pass rushers....yada, yada...yada. Same old story for years now.

The Ugly: Offensive play calling, whereas, when play calling appears to be working we can't keep the rhythm for more than one series. 

Ill admit im excited for this kid to get the bulk of the carries and see what he can do, but im going to hold off those expectations, just like I did with the Buck Allen hype.  A lot of people thought he was our future....

[redrum52]

7 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Ill admit im excited for this kid to get the bulk of the carries and see what he can do, but im going to hold off those expectations, just like I did with the Buck Allen hype.  A lot of people thought he was our future....

I think Dixon can actually be a feature back and was never too big on Allen, but I understand you're coming from.  We have a tendency to jump the gun on some of these guys.

[usmccharles]

37 minutes ago, redrum52 said:

I think Dixon can actually be a feature back and was never too big on Allen, but I understand you're coming from.  We have a tendency to jump the gun on some of these guys.

haha im victim of it as well.  Oh man, such high hopes for Streeter

[RavensFanMania]

On 12/14/2016 at 4:36 PM, kjbmore said:

How about the other half of the comment - now HE has to coach and he can't or something along those lines.

Jury's out, see how we finish up this season but other than 2014 - we're not doing much since all those guys retired and we're burning through high draft picks, surely the coach has some input into who we draft.

Yes half our team was injured last year but we were still losing - before we lost everybody and the fact we are so exposed by key injuries is also an indictment on the front office and the coaching staff, no forward planning, so heavily dependent on key players - Freakin patriots shipped out their 2 best players on defence lost 2 studs on Offense and still whooped us.

We could of grabbed Dwight Freeney last year after Suggs went down, we grabbed Jason Babin, who's the genius making these decisions - maybe they wanted better draft positioning.

I agree there have been some mistakes made from the front office, but no one is perfect. Last year there is no question we had depth issues all over the defense.  This year we are pretty deep all over the defense, but still can't afford to have Jimmy Smith, Suggs or Weddle go down.  No team can afford to have there stars go down without a little drop in performance.  

We've done pretty well with our depth and this past years draft along with the 2014 draft have gone a long way towards improving the defense.  The 2014 draft got to 1st round type players (counting Jerniagan as a 1st rounder) Both are playing at a pro bowl level.  The 2016 draft has brought a future top notch left tackle into the family along with Tavon Young, who is currently the best cb from the draft class, Pierce and Judon.  Let's not forget Dixon, who I believe has the ability to be a very good RB in this league and he is starting to show his worth.  We haven't seen anything from Kaufusi yet but I liked him coming out of college and let's hope KC has a better year two.  In 2015 we drafted Perriman who is starting to do pretty well and Maxx is on IR.  I believe no the of them have breakout seasons in 2017.  Perriman has already showed us he has the ability to be a number 1 receiver with the type of catches he makes, we just need some consistency.  Hopefully having a full offseason and finally a training camp will help.

 

Edited December 17, 2016 by RavensFanMania