Week 14: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly discussion/rant Patriots edition

[trevorsteadman]

1 minute ago, Edug27 said:

100% agree. SSS needs to retire. Elam, Webb, Hester, Arrington and Lewis need to be cut. If it weren't for his relationship with Flacco, I'd move on from Pitta as well.  I'm also in favor of moving on from Mike Wallace as well. No idea about his salary and all that though.

You have to find yourself a veteran #1 wideout. A sure handed player to move the sticks. Someone like Garçon. Then you move Perriman into the 2 spot. You have to develop Reynolds and Campanaro as the slot guys. While Pitta is a dependable pass catcher,  we need more playmaking from that position. Maxx Williams needs to develop. 

 

Thank god fans do not run this team.

Why Webb? He has played very good football. This is the first time since Pollard-Reed that I have confidence in the team's safeties. 

Lewis is a great back up. Probably a starter on 20 teams if not more in the NFL. People complain about depth.

Powers has done a very good job in the slot. He went out with a concussion but until that point he was playing good football and has been for games now.

And the biggest head scratcher is WALLACE. The team's leading receiver by far. He has made so many key plays for this offense. He will probably be the only one to eclipse 1000 yards this season.

 

Theres a reason that Reynolds and Campanaro can't even make the roster. They are plain not good enough... Not yet anyways. Just no.

[The Mom Gene]

21 minutes ago, the_pope said:

forget the playoffs.  they are not a good team.. they beat up on the really bad teams.  need a new coach and OC.  time has finally come to make changes.  you have dixon and run the ball 4 times.  it's great to be an optimistic fan, but you also have to be realistic.  wait til next year.

Except that Dixon ran the ball more than 4 times.....  The guy had 11 carries ford 49 yards.....

[OUravensfan]

3 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

Thank god fans do not run this team.

Why Webb? He has played very good football. This is the first time since Pollard-Reed that I have confidence in the team's safeties. 

Lewis is a great back up. Probably a starter on 20 teams if not more in the NFL. People complain about depth.

Powers has done a very good job in the slot. He went out with a concussion but until that point he was playing good football and has been for games now.

And the biggest head scratcher is WALLACE. The team's leading receiver by far. He has made so many key plays for this offense. He will probably be the only one to eclipse 1000 yards this season.

 

Theres a reason that Reynolds and Campanaro can't even make the roster. They are plain not good enough... Not yet anyways. Just no.

I'm a huge critic of Mike Wallace, he has had some huge TD/big play drops and has caused some INTs, but I understand that we must keep him and he should be back next year if we're trying to build a good offense.

[Drew P]

3 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

Theres a reason that Reynolds and Campanaro can't even make the roster. They are plain not good enough... Not yet anyways. Just no.

Define "good enough" as in they are not better than Hester?

You mean to tell us they cannot watch a ball sail over their heads and roll to the 1?

[trevorsteadman]

Just now, Drew P said:

Define "good enough" as in they are not better than Hester?

You mean to tell us they cannot watch a ball sail over their heads and roll to the 1?

When the team has had more faith in Hester to keep him on the roster than to give those others a try after events that have happened BEFORE this last game I would say yes.

[The Mom Gene]

5 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

Thank god fans do not run this team.

Why Webb? He has played very good football. This is the first time since Pollard-Reed that I have confidence in the team's safeties. 

Lewis is a great back up. Probably a starter on 20 teams if not more in the NFL. People complain about depth.

Powers has done a very good job in the slot. He went out with a concussion but until that point he was playing good football and has been for games now.

And the biggest head scratcher is WALLACE. The team's leading receiver by far. He has made so many key plays for this offense. He will probably be the only one to eclipse 1000 yards this season.

 

Theres a reason that Reynolds and Campanaro can't even make the roster. They are plain not good enough... Not yet anyways. Just no.

I agree Trevor....  SO GLAD that the fans aren't decision makers here.    I'm just scratching my head at some of the comments here.

[rmw10]

Just now, trevorsteadman said:

When the team has had more faith in Hester to keep him on the roster than to give those others a try after events that have happened BEFORE this last game I would say yes.

To be fair in regards to Hester, the only reason he has had this much leeway is because of his past.  If this was pretty much anyone but Devin Hester, they'd have been cut by now.  He's skating by on his name now, and has been for several weeks.

[terps85]

1 minute ago, rmw10 said:

To be fair in regards to Hester, the only reason he has had this much leeway is because of his past.  If this was pretty much anyone but Devin Hester, they'd have been cut by now.  He's skating by on his name now, and has been for several years.

Fixed it for you.

[trevorsteadman]

So in a fan's perspective... To build a team you must:

1. Cut all veterans.

2. Play all young players based off of POTENTIAL not production.

which in turn somehow

3. Gives your team more chemistry and a better chance to win.

 

The reason the offense is in the place it is and has been is look at the pieces around Flacco. Pitta came back for basically the first time in 2 years. Perriman missed all of training camp and is barely coming back. Mike Wallace's first season. Steve Smith coming off of an achilles. 

This on top of a rotating O-line due to injuries.

And the 5th offensive coordinator in 5 years.

 

Wake up. Give the offense time to gel. It is no reason the top offenses in the league are the ones that have been together for YEARS.

[rmcjacket23]

5 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

So in a fan's perspective... To build a team you must:

1. Cut all veterans.

2. Play all young players based off of POTENTIAL not production.

which in turn somehow

3. Gives your team more chemistry and a better chance to win.

 

The reason the offense is in the place it is and has been is look at the pieces around Flacco. Pitta came back for basically the first time in 2 years. Perriman missed all of training camp and is barely coming back. Mike Wallace's first season. Steve Smith coming off of an achilles. 

This on top of a rotating O-line due to injuries.

And the 5th offensive coordinator in 5 years.

 

Wake up. Give the offense time to gel. It is no reason the top offenses in the league are the ones that have been together for YEARS.

The reality is that there won't be time to gel.

Steve Smith will be gone, Pitta could likely be gone, and you'll quite possibly have at least two new offensive lineman next year. No idea what happens with Aiken either. 

Easily looking at two different receivers, a different TE and probably 2 different offensive lineman next year... and that might be the minimum turnover. And from the looks of it, maybe a new OC as well.

That's one of the flaws of the NFL... there isn't much in the way of patience. We know fans certainly don't even have patience on a week to week basis, and its tough to convince people that the right thing to fix an entire units production is to keep things the exact same.

[drillem]

4 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

The reality is that there won't be time to gel.

Steve Smith will be gone, Pitta could likely be gone, and you'll quite possibly have at least two new offensive lineman next year. No idea what happens with Aiken either. 

Easily looking at two different receivers, a different TE and probably 2 different offensive lineman next year... and that might be the minimum turnover. And from the looks of it, maybe a new OC as well.

That's one of the flaws of the NFL... there isn't much in the way of patience. We know fans certainly don't even have patience on a week to week basis, and its tough to convince people that the right thing to fix an entire units production is to keep things the exact same.

My only disagreement is this:  Then how do the patriots do it each year after year?  I mean they play in the NFL too.  Just sayin'

[trevorsteadman]

Just now, drillem said:

My only disagreement is this:  Then how do the patriots do it each year after year?  I mean they play in the NFL too.  Just sayin'

They haven't. How long have they had Gronk? How long have they had Edelman? How long did they have Welker before that? How long have they had the same coaches and o-line. Tell me when they have had 7 different offensive coordinators in 10 years, 5 in the past 5 years. 

They have more consistency than most teams. Take out that long Hogan touchdown and the game is tied. 

[drillem]

1 minute ago, trevorsteadman said:

They haven't. How long have they had Gronk? How long have they had Edelman? How long did they have Welker before that? How long have they had the same coaches and o-line. Tell me when they have had 7 different offensive coordinators in 10 years, 5 in the past 5 years. 

They have more consistency than most teams. Take out that long Hogan touchdown and the game is tied. 

Thanks.  You make my point.  The key is the management.  Continuity comes from the way the team is run and coached.  That is my point.  Yeah brady has a sharp mind and poise (most of the time when he's not throwing his helmet).  Flacco's style is different but he has some of the same qualities.  And yet, year after year we see inconsistent results game to game during the season.  Unlike NE.

[rossihunter2]

i think this year might be over - were just not quite there with the big boys - but im not overly sad about it because we have a lot of good pieces moving forwards and we look like we're back on the up again

ronnie stanley looked great last night which was a positive etc.

joe regressed again - its crazy how if you take the middle of the field away from him his mechanics just go all wonky - he was throwing off his back foot too much with a long release again as if miami never happened - you cant really blame it on the line again because they've started to give him some more time - ducasse looked bad missing way too many blocks in both the run and the passing game but other than that the line did give him some time so some of its a phantom pass rush

on the other side though, our pass rush disappeared - suggs and doom were threats but never cashed in, jernigan was tearing through the lineman opposite him but brady didnt need to hold onto the ball long because there were always quick 5 yard passes available

im not gonna get on the defense though - it was one bad game with jimmy and eventually powers going out playing against the best qb of all time who is 6-0 at home vs no1 ranked defenses - he just makes things happen and some days you have to just bow to him as distasteful as it may seem

[rmcjacket23]

10 minutes ago, drillem said:

My only disagreement is this:  Then how do the patriots do it each year after year?  I mean they play in the NFL too.  Just sayin'

Do what year after year? Win their division?

Well, in most years, they still have more talent than the other teams in their division. And yes, they have better coaching. 

If you're asking why they manage to win or even get to the SB every year, they don't. 

[drillem]

1 minute ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Do what year after year? Win their division?

Well, in most years, they still have more talent than the other teams in their division. And yes, they have better coaching. 

If you're asking why they manage to win or even get to the SB every year, they don't. 

In answer:  they play much more consistently game to game each year after year.  That's what I'm talking about.  I'm not denigrating our team here, mind you.  I'm just answering the thing said about it being a problem with today's NFL.  If they can do it in the same league (NFL) then their success needs to be studied and emulated (not their schemes but their ability to overcome the natural turn over of players due to salary caps etc).  These blogs tend to make replies disjointed.  And by the way, and as I said above, I'm not denigrating our team.  In fact I see more plus than minus.  It just seems there is some intangible thing missing that keeps us from getting closer each game and each year.  My point is if we could find out what that is it might help.  

[rossihunter2]

1 minute ago, drillem said:

In answer:  they play much more consistently game to game each year after year.  That's what I'm talking about.  I'm not denigrating our team here, mind you.  I'm just answering the thing said about it being a problem with today's NFL.  If they can do it in the same league (NFL) then their success needs to be studied and emulated (not their schemes but their ability to overcome the natural turn over of players due to salary caps etc).  These blogs tend to make replies disjointed.  And by the way, and as I said above, I'm not denigrating our team.  In fact I see more plus than minus.  It just seems there is some intangible thing missing that keeps us from getting closer each game and each year.  My point is if we could find out what that is it might help.  

you can surely put a lot of this on having the best qb to ever play - you're of course always gonna have a chance when you have someone like that under centre

a perennial superbowl threat - look at how new england wasnt really a threat until brady despite bellichek

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, ravensdfan said:

It was in response to Pollard's post about having to coach now that Reed & Lewis are gone. So again, exactly who would be responsible for that on the defensive side?

That was 100% a shot at Harbaugh...

[redrum52]

19 minutes ago, drillem said:

My only disagreement is this:  Then how do the patriots do it each year after year?  I mean they play in the NFL too.  Just sayin'

There has been a ton of turnover there.  Over that past few years, basically rebuilt the OL  This offseason added Bennett and a couple other guys who are now getting significant time.  They didn't even have their qb first four games and went 3-1.  I'd hate to see the dumpster fire we would've been if Flacco missed our first four and then Mallett went down.

[drillem]

 

5 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

you can surely put a lot of this on having the best qb to ever play - you're of course always gonna have a chance when you have someone like that under centre

a perennial superbowl threat - look at how new england wasnt really a threat until brady despite bellichek

And to go along with that is Brady's willingness and desire to go along with salary loss to better the team.  That has nothing to do with his ability.  There may be reason for some of the inconsistency.  It may be the turn over of players.  And that may be the result of decisions by management rather than player quality.   There is some magic missing and it might be a good idea to find out what it is.  Just sayin'

[rmcjacket23]

16 minutes ago, drillem said:

In answer:  they play much more consistently game to game each year after year.  That's what I'm talking about.  I'm not denigrating our team here, mind you.  I'm just answering the thing said about it being a problem with today's NFL.  If they can do it in the same league (NFL) then their success needs to be studied and emulated (not their schemes but their ability to overcome the natural turn over of players due to salary caps etc).  These blogs tend to make replies disjointed.  And by the way, and as I said above, I'm not denigrating our team.  In fact I see more plus than minus.  It just seems there is some intangible thing missing that keeps us from getting closer each game and each year.  My point is if we could find out what that is it might help.  

Studied? Sure. Emulated? Not likely. You have to have people that have an innate ability to think along the same lines consistently, much like Brady/Belichick. That's not something you can teach.

Belichick sees game situations differently than other coaches and players. He sees things on field that others don't see, and he's good at convincing his players that his methods are correct.

Its kind of like saying that somebody needs to emulate one's leadership style... they are all unique in their own way. No two are alike or will ever be alike. 

[Edug27]

56 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

Thank god fans do not run this team.

Why Webb? He has played very good football. This is the first time since Pollard-Reed that I have confidence in the team's safeties. 

Lewis is a great back up. Probably a starter on 20 teams if not more in the NFL. People complain about depth.

Powers has done a very good job in the slot. He went out with a concussion but until that point he was playing good football and has been for games now.

And the biggest head scratcher is WALLACE. The team's leading receiver by far. He has made so many key plays for this offense. He will probably be the only one to eclipse 1000 yards this season.

 

Theres a reason that Reynolds and Campanaro can't even make the roster. They are plain not good enough... Not yet anyways. Just no.

Eh. Cut the nonsense and let's be real. You're falling in love with players. You probably also loved Arrington and Asa  Jackson.

We need more speed in the secondary. The Webb experiment needs to end. When I was crying to start T.Young early in the season over Wright, everyone yelled the same nonsense "good thing fans don't make decisions". You probably loved Wright. I can just sense it.

Lewis a great backup? You're kidding right?

And I never said cut Powers.

 

[Edug27]

54 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

So in a fan's perspective... To build a team you must:

1. Cut all veterans.

2. Play all young players based off of POTENTIAL not production.

which in turn somehow

3. Gives your team more chemistry and a better chance to win.

 

Sounds like Belicheck eh?

[Edug27]

41 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

They haven't. How long have they had Gronk? How long have they had Edelman? How long did they have Welker before that? How long have they had the same coaches and o-line. Tell me when they have had 7 different offensive coordinators in 10 years, 5 in the past 5 years. 

They have more consistency than most teams. Take out that long Hogan touchdown and the game is tied. 

Belicheck is known to move on from players a year or 2 sooner than fans want, and replace them with younger players who come in and produce just as much. His system is so crisp, you can easily plug and play. I take it you're not really paying attention.

 

[BmoreBird22]

2 minutes ago, Edug27 said:

Belicheck is known to move on from players a year or 2 sooner than fans want, and replace them with younger players who come in and produce just as much. His system is so crisp, you can easily plug and play. I take it you're not really paying attention.

Examples being...

[Deflated Football]

At some point you have to question Harbaugh's decisions to keep Hester on the team and go for a cute little onside kick with a lot of time remaining on the clock, two timeouts and before the two minute warning and the Patriots being a dumpster fire of a return team. Come on now

[Edug27]

12 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Examples being...

It's documented all over the place. From Woody, to Sanders, to Moss. Ty Law was just talking about this a couple months ago.... as he was a victim of it. There was also an article talking about how the Packers do exactly the opposite of the Pats. They rarely trade, cut or deal their veterans. And maybe their replacements don't produce just as much, but the team doesn't take a hit because of it.... That's probably a better way of stating it

Edited December 13, 2016 by Edug27

[jboy19]

Guys, we're playing the Eagles, the Steelers and the Bengals. Let's not count the Ravens out yet. The Eagles aren't playing for anything and the Ravens have already beat the Steelers and Bengals once- so it's by definition not "impossible". It's going to be extremely difficult- especially if Jimmy is out for the rest of the season. But the Patriots are easily a lot better than any of the other teams that the Ravens will play and considering how many teams have looked stupid against the Patriots this year, I don't think it's worth dwelling on too much. There's a lot that we'll learn this week as far as injuries and potential cuts, so let's just see what happens. 

[BmoreBird22]

4 minutes ago, Edug27 said:

It's documented all over the place. From Woody, to Sanders, to Moss. Ty Law was just talking about this a couple months ago.... as he was a victim of it. There was also an article talking about how the Packers do exactly the opposite of the Pats. They rarely trade, cut or deal their veterans. And maybe their replacements don't produce just as much, but the team doesn't take a hit because of it.... That's probably a better way of stating it

I don't want to hear it's all over the place. I want to hear about who the players are.

[rmcjacket23]

22 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Examples being...

Well, not sure about the whole "produce just as much" aspect, but he's pretty well known for moving on from players earlier than most teams would have. In particular, he's also pretty good at trading away players who he knows he won't retain when they hit FA. Namely, Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins, who within recent years, were considered to be arguably the two best defensive players on the team.

I mean you have to admit it takes quite the sack of marbles to trade away a player like Collins, who's a key part of  your defense, in a year where you're clearly a heavy favorite to win a SB. 

I mean to me, it would be the equivalent of the Ravens trading away Paul Kruger during the 2012 season while they're trying to make a big time playoff run. Sure, you get draft pick or picks for him, but you're losing a player who could play a big difference in whether you win a Lombardi or not.

Some of his examples are valid though. Guys like Seymour were perceived as to have been let go a good year or two earliest than they should have or most teams would have. Welker is also a similar type example.