[News] Late For Work 12/7: Suddenly Everyone LOVES Ravens In National Power Rankings

[leziRav]

  43 minutes ago, leziRav said:

I agree but honestly I think we can have both, Williams is the best NT right and he is even better off field. We can franchise tagged him to keep him out of the free agent market like we did with Tucker then before deadline sign him. If not, I agree we have to let him walk. Also remimber we have Kaufusi, I believe he will be a good pass rusher DE. So we don't have really worry about Jernigan. I will take Williams over Jernigan.

1. Could care less what he's like off the field. 

2. No team is going to pay a run stopping NT $14M. Its a team killing contract. He could be the best run stopping NT of all-time, and he's not worth close to $14M. He's on the sidelines 40% of the time we are on defense anyway. 

Frankly, there's no guarantee we would even have $14M to spend on a franchise tag, and you can't just tag somebody and wait five months to sign them to a LT deal. It works with Tucker, because Tucker costs like $5M, and the franchise tag and the amount he got paid were very close. That won't be the case with Williams most likely.

Its completely and utterly not even worth discussing, because there's no chance in the world he gets franchise tagged.

As for Jernigan, I could argue both sides. Kaufusi has never played an NFL snap, and for all we know, he could be a Brent Urban or a Kapron-Lewis Moore. He's far from a guarantee to pan out. In terms of Williams replacement, we already know that Michael Pierce is pretty good and can play well. Brandon Williams isn't like $13-14M better than Michael Pierce.

I want to resign Williams as much as anybody, but its not a "must sign or we suck" scenario.

I think most people in the business would tell you that most good defenses generally pay top tier money to pass rushers and corners. Brandon Williams does neither.

Your points are valid. But we don't know if he is going to cost us that money. Panthers tagged Norman and release him before the deadline when they could not sign him. Anyway you made valid points. Maybe we can get him for less. I really want us to keep our front 7 intact and work on our secondary. The weakness of our defense is the secondary and it is still not fixed yet. We could not stop any team that went heavy on pass ( Raiders, Redskins, Steelers in 4th Q, Cowboys etc,) I think the Pats game will be a test for our secondary. The only way they can beat us is through our secondary. If they hold against the Pats then I will trust them. Till now I don't have any faith on our secondary. Maybe the pass rush will help.

[rossihunter2]

7 minutes ago, leziRav said:

Your points are valid. But we don't know if he is going to cost us that money.

i mean he will - damon harrison made £40 mill and bwill is better and there will be the classic annual markup so we can say for sure he will be at least £9-10 mill per year which is a lot for a nose who doesnt do much pass rushing - so you're gonna end up spending something like a 16th of your salary cap on a player who only plays just over half the defensive snaps

[omar586]

39 minutes ago, Steve32 said:

Disagree. The Ravens pay up for their core players and Williams is one of the core players.

And based on how thin our OL is, I think they try to keep him. The loss of KO really hurt, hopefully they won't repeat that mistake.

they would love to keep both, but u have to remember that there is salary cap

[billiejean]

Alex Lewis will more than suffice at right tackle so we can stand to lose Wagner. Ducasse has done well enough at right tackle that we can either swap him and Yanda or leave them where they are at. I still think Urschel will do better at center than Zuttah but until it happens, I will be told I'm nuts. But to show how nuts I am here is what I said before the Miami game and was nuts then too.

"This defense is much more than Jay Ajayi could imagine in his worst nightmare. It will be interesting to see what he has to say after 4 quarters of some up and close personal time with Brandon Williams and co. He would have done better had he faced the Ravens earlier in the season when his legs were the strongest and the Ravens defense was still getting it together. Right now, I am actually excited to watch our defense play, takes me back to the old days. You can see Flacco is running better and moving easier and when it gets cold, he gets hot. (if you watch Wired, listen to Dixon say that "for a big man, Joe was moving." You could see in his face Dixon was honestly impressed.) That's making me feel like the old Joe is getting close to healing and being himself again."

I stick by my premise that Joe is still healing and will continue to get better, he is started to jive with his receivers now that he has had actual quality time throwing to them, they are getting more used to Joe. The running game continues to develop and our offensive line has the same group playing in the same positions for the third straight game. Our defense is also gelling and is hard to believe they can get better (knock on wood). I knew we would blow out Miami but NE is going to be close and we can win, but its not going to be easy. We know we can stop the run, we now need to prove we can stop the pass and make someone run the ball.

Fusuymada when will you get over this Urschel stuff. He is ranked as the 49th best gaurd in the league. He is a turnstile, and yes this is nuts, especially because Zuttah has been playing so well. He has graded out multiple times this season including the last THREE games. It is not like Urschel is a total unknown. He has had a chance to play both this year and last and he has been TERRIBLE !!!! I am not sure why you think that your prediction before the game would be considered nuts by anybody. You pretty much stated the obvious (Jay Ajai is going to have a tough time against our D line), which is what I am doing when I say Zuttah is killing it out there and Urschel has done nothing to make anyone think he should be in there. Even Jensen is better than Urschel but since he only plays gaurd they deactivate him sometimes.

[rmcjacket23]

14 minutes ago, leziRav said:

Your points are valid. But we don't know if he is going to cost us that money. Panthers tagged Norman and release him before the deadline when they could not sign him. Anyway you made valid points. Maybe we can get him for less. I really want us to keep our front 7 intact and work on our secondary. The weakness of our defense is the secondary and it is still not fixed yet. We could not stop any team that went heavy on pass ( Raiders, Redskins, Steelers in 4th Q, Cowboys etc,) I think the Pats game will be a test for our secondary. The only way they can beat us is through our secondary. If they hold against the Pats then I will trust them. Till now I don't have any faith on our secondary. Maybe the pass rush will help.

And that was a gigantic mistake by the Panthers. Not even so much so releasing him, but to basically hold up that level of money for that long of a period of time. That's why you rarely see that happen.

That's the downside of the franchise tag for Williams. Look at the scenarios:

1. You franchise tag him in March, and you sign him to an extension, which most likely won't happen until at least May or June. The extension will undoubtedly be for a lower salary cap hit than the $14M franchise tag. So lets say aggressively its $10M (which it would likely be lower in year 1), that's $4M you couldn't spend from March until May/June, which by that point, a lot of the better FAs have long since signed elsewhere.

2. You franchise tag him and you don't reach a long term extension. You keep him for one year at $14M, which is likely at least a couple million dollars more than his market value. And you're back in the same boat the next season.

3. You franchise tag him and then release him when he doesn't agree to an extension. Probably the worst of the options. For starters, you lock up $14M in cap space from the day you tag him until the day you rescind it. This could be a month later or several months later, and there's no way of knowing, since franchise tag players have until like July to sign extensions. So you lock up $14M of cap space that you can't spend for the bulk of the FA period, AND then you pull the offer and cut the player loose. So you've got $14M in cap space to spend on what is now a mostly dried up FA market, AND you lost the player.

I don't know about you, but none of these scenarios seem particularly appealing. That's why they only work on guys who's market value is relatively equal to the franchise tag amount (i.e. Justin Tucker). When that happens, option 2 is gone, because market value = franchise tag value, and the gap between franchise tag amount and first year extension amount is oftentimes far less in option 1 when market value = franchise tag value.

[billiejean]

Alex Lewis will more than suffice at right tackle so we can stand to lose Wagner. Ducasse has done well enough at right tackle that we can either swap him and Yanda or leave them where they are at. I still think Urschel will do better at center than Zuttah but until it happens, I will be told I'm nuts. But to show how nuts I am here is what I said before the Miami game and was nuts then too.

"This defense is much more than Jay Ajayi could imagine in his worst nightmare. It will be interesting to see what he has to say after 4 quarters of some up and close personal time with Brandon Williams and co. He would have done better had he faced the Ravens earlier in the season when his legs were the strongest and the Ravens defense was still getting it together. Right now, I am actually excited to watch our defense play, takes me back to the old days. You can see Flacco is running better and moving easier and when it gets cold, he gets hot. (if you watch Wired, listen to Dixon say that "for a big man, Joe was moving." You could see in his face Dixon was honestly impressed.) That's making me feel like the old Joe is getting close to healing and being himself again."

I stick by my premise that Joe is still healing and will continue to get better, he is started to jive with his receivers now that he has had actual quality time throwing to them, they are getting more used to Joe. The running game continues to develop and our offensive line has the same group playing in the same positions for the third straight game. Our defense is also gelling and is hard to believe they can get better (knock on wood). I knew we would blow out Miami but NE is going to be close and we can win, but its not going to be easy. We know we can stop the run, we now need to prove we can stop the pass and make someone run the ball.

I thought your premise regarding Joe went a little like this, "Joe is atrocious, I hate to sound like a broken record but the guys mechanics, footwork, release, etc.. are trash." That was only ten days ago and now your premise is, and has been all along, that he is still healing?

[RavenzOz]

Yeah those power-rankings are just another form of click-bait, so no surprise that they are volatile and reactionary.  If Ravens beat the pats our rankings will be in the 3 to 4 range :-))

B Williams, would love to see him stay (everything RaRaRavens says is spot-on, BW opens it up for the rest of the D), but can't help thinking he is going to get priced out of here by some team who thinks that one big signing will fix everything. On the positive side is that if there is one thing Ozzie drafts really well it's DL, and we got Pierce who is another monster.

After last Sunday's outing, now is the perfect time to face off against the pats, bring em on, can't wait.

Edited December 7, 2016 by RavenzOz

[robbie29]

I'm tempering expectations and holding my breath until the final whistle of Monday's game. If the Ravens go into New England and get the victory, that will be one heck of a statement win that this team should be feared, and that Sunday's game wasn't just a fluke offensive showing. I'd also like the Ravens to really stick it to Belicheat and Pretty Boy Brady for the last time they came to M&T Bank and ran up the score on us. May as well include that d-bag Blount in there too- I clearly remember him mocking Ray Lewis after one of the TDs in that game.
Go Ravens!

[The Greek]

tough schedule for us but i really believe we can beat the pats if this team wants it bad enough. we have the talent to do it so we shall find out monday night. i sure hope flacco and the "o" have turned the corner. go ravens go bills go titans!!

[leziRav]

  1 hour ago, leziRav said:

Your points are valid. But we don't know if he is going to cost us that money. Panthers tagged Norman and release him before the deadline when they could not sign him. Anyway you made valid points. Maybe we can get him for less. I really want us to keep our front 7 intact and work on our secondary. The weakness of our defense is the secondary and it is still not fixed yet. We could not stop any team that went heavy on pass ( Raiders, Redskins, Steelers in 4th Q, Cowboys etc,) I think the Pats game will be a test for our secondary. The only way they can beat us is through our secondary. If they hold against the Pats then I will trust them. Till now I don't have any faith on our secondary. Maybe the pass rush will help.

And that was a gigantic mistake by the Panthers. Not even so much so releasing him, but to basically hold up that level of money for that long of a period of time. That's why you rarely see that happen.

That's the downside of the franchise tag for Williams. Look at the scenarios:

1. You franchise tag him in March, and you sign him to an extension, which most likely won't happen until at least May or June. The extension will undoubtedly be for a lower salary cap hit than the $14M franchise tag. So lets say aggressively its $10M (which it would likely be lower in year 1), that's $4M you couldn't spend from March until May/June, which by that point, a lot of the better FAs have long since signed elsewhere.

2. You franchise tag him and you don't reach a long term extension. You keep him for one year at $14M, which is likely at least a couple million dollars more than his market value. And you're back in the same boat the next season.

3. You franchise tag him and then release him when he doesn't agree to an extension. Probably the worst of the options. For starters, you lock up $14M in cap space from the day you tag him until the day you rescind it. This could be a month later or several months later, and there's no way of knowing, since franchise tag players have until like July to sign extensions. So you lock up $14M of cap space that you can't spend for the bulk of the FA period, AND then you pull the offer and cut the player loose. So you've got $14M in cap space to spend on what is now a mostly dried up FA market, AND you lost the player.

I don't know about you, but none of these scenarios seem particularly appealing. That's why they only work on guys who's market value is relatively equal to the franchise tag amount (i.e. Justin Tucker). When that happens, option 2 is gone, because market value = franchise tag value, and the gap between franchise tag amount and first year extension amount is oftentimes far less in option 1 when market value = franchise tag value.

It is uncharacteristic for Ozzie to tag a player but I will take my chance on option 3 rather than just lose him to free agent first wave. Anyway Ozzie make his free agent signing late, not at the beginning of the wave. We lost Osemele and affect our OL big time. We will survive losing Williams but I rather have him than lose him and I will take him over Jernigan if choice comes to that. I believe Ozzie will get it done.

[rmcjacket23]

35 minutes ago, leziRav said:

It is uncharacteristic for Ozzie to tag a player but I will take my chance on option 3 rather than just lose him to free agent first wave. Anyway Ozzie make his free agent signing late, not at the beginning of the wave. We lost Osemele and affect our OL big time. We will survive losing Williams but I rather have him than lose him and I will take him over Jernigan if choice comes to that. I believe Ozzie will get it done.

I wouldn't. There is even more risk with option 3...

You will get a comp pick if you lose Williams, likely a 3rd or 4th rounder based on contract size, so its not like you're getting nothing in return. However, if you were to tag him until June/July and then rescind the tag, you risk him getting a smaller contract on the open market, because a lot of teams don't have that kind of money to spend in June/July. If the contract is significantly smaller enough, that'll cost you a round on a comp pick. So you're 3rd rounder may become a 4th rounder. That's not good.

Ozzie making FA signings late is sort of a myth to be honest. He finds "bargains" later in FA, but many of them aren't nearly as late as fans think. He's typically not signing players in the first day or two of FA, but a lot of those signings aren't "late".

2016: Weddle, Wallace and Watson were all signed within the first week of FA this year.

2015: Signed Kendrick Lewis in the first week of FA. Late signings were Kyle Arrington (May) and Shareece Wright (October)

2014: Signed Justin Forsett in the first month (early April)

Even go back to Dumervil in 2013, who was signed in the first month. As much as we like to say that Ozzie does "great" with late FA signings, the overwhelming majority of the impact FA signings we've had in the last handful of years have come within the first month of FA, with most of them in the month of March. Sure, sometimes we do get a Daryl Smith in June, but those aren't nearly as frequent as people think.

I think the false perception is that the Ravens aren't active early in FA because we don't sign four players on the first day. There's plenty of activity in the first week of FA that we've done, just not necessarily in the first "wave" if you will.

Edited December 7, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[Minionhunter]

The weather for Monday currently is forecast for 38 with Snow and rain in the pm with ice late. It can change on a dime up here, but it should be interesting.

[hen826957]

When it's 4th down and in field goal range take the points. We have a weapon kicker in Tucker. We cannot be greedy a go for it 4th down. The coaching decisions have to be good at this game.

[rmcjacket23]

12 minutes ago, hen826957 said:

When it's 4th down and in field goal range take the points. We have a weapon kicker in Tucker. We cannot be greedy a go for it 4th down. The coaching decisions have to be good at this game.

Obviously depends on game situation and game flow. There's no set reason to do either without that information.

[whobilly]

Let's not get to far ahead of ourselves here. Yes, the Ravens played a near perfect game against Miami. Can we use the cliché and take this one game at a time? NE would revel in taking us back down to earth. ONE GAME AT A TIME.

[steelraven]

Rodney Harris was right, you can't rely on a 37yo receiver and a kicker, last week proved that. If Flacco can keep playing this way and not turn the ball over with a strong running game which the Raven's will need against the Patriots they can win.

[Ravenous_Ravens]

If Flacco keeps "the pedal to the metal" as he put it, the Ravens will continue to be successful on offense. Maybe not 4 TD's from Flacco every game but you don't always need a blowout to win. Keep spreading the ball around an teams will not be able to simply game plan around a primary target.

[FloridalovesRavens]

tough schedule for us but i really believe we can beat the pats if this team wants it bad enough. we have the talent to do it so we shall find out monday night. i sure hope flacco and the "o" have turned the corner. go ravens go bills go titans!!

No doubt in my mind we want it but so do the Pats. If we spread the ball around and harrass Brady we can win.

[ravenken]

I hope everyone is ready for some great Raven football. Now that Marty and Joe are on the bus with special teams and defense... We got a full tank of gas... This is going to be fun.
Go Ravens!!!

[Flamengo1265]

The Ravens can't seem to keep anybody anymore once their rookie contracts are up. Now we'll be saying good bye to Rick Wagner and Brandon Williams because their rookie contracts are up and they are good players. Gotta do a better job of managing the salary cap so we can keep somebody decent from time to time.

[rossihunter2]

1 hour ago, Flamengo1265 said:

The Ravens can't seem to keep anybody anymore once their rookie contracts are up. Now we'll be saying good bye to Rick Wagner and Brandon Williams because their rookie contracts are up and they are good players. Gotta do a better job of managing the salary cap so we can keep somebody decent from time to time.

injuries will do that to you

[20306cab]

When it's 4th down and in field goal range take the points. We have a weapon kicker in Tucker. We cannot be greedy a go for it 4th down. The coaching decisions have to be good at this game.

Absolutely right!!!! Self Righteous John has already singlehandedly blown two games by calling ridiculous plays, and going for it when absolutely not necessary. Maybe it took eleven games for SRJ and FBAJ to figure out that, they have the NO. 1 D in the league, along with the greatest kicker of all time, with a great special teams. Would love another run. But it's doubtful FBAJ puts two impressive games back to back. Just don't blow it.

[rossihunter2]

23 minutes ago, 20306cab said:

Absolutely right!!!! Self Righteous John has already singlehandedly blown two games by calling ridiculous plays, and going for it when absolutely not necessary. Maybe it took eleven games for SRJ and FBAJ to figure out that, they have the NO. 1 D in the league, along with the greatest kicker of all time, with a great special teams. Would love another run. But it's doubtful FBAJ puts two impressive games back to back. Just don't blow it.

and yet they put the sword to miami last week by doing exactly the same thing and going for it... twice... in even "riskier" situations

[Rav'n Maniac]

NE has all but locked up a playoff spot and are now playing for the #1 seed. The Ravens are playing to win our division and we will make the path a lot more difficult if we don't beat this team. This game will come down to who wants it more and who executes better. We have to find a way to prove that we have what it takes to beat a top ranked team.

[Molson Man]

  17 hours ago, hen826957 said:

When it's 4th down and in field goal range take the points. We have a weapon kicker in Tucker. We cannot be greedy a go for it 4th down. The coaching decisions have to be good at this game.

Absolutely right!!!! Self Righteous John has already singlehandedly blown two games by calling ridiculous plays, and going for it when absolutely not necessary. Maybe it took eleven games for SRJ and FBAJ to figure out that, they have the NO. 1 D in the league, along with the greatest kicker of all time, with a great special teams. Would love another run. But it's doubtful FBAJ puts two impressive games back to back. Just don't blow it.

Well he said he was going to be playing aggressively, that said when it's obvious you should consider taking the points. Tucker is the best kicker I have ever seen, as long as we don't line him up opposite side and tell him to pass it again that was the worst attempt at a fake ever. Harbaugh came up big with his aggressive style last week but you need to play sound against New England.

[Kozak02]

I think the winner of this game will be whoever scores the most points.

[Crusader]

The Ravens can't seem to keep anybody anymore once their rookie contracts are up. Now we'll be saying good bye to Rick Wagner and Brandon Williams because their rookie contracts are up and they are good players. Gotta do a better job of managing the salary cap so we can keep somebody decent from time to time.

That's what a 120 million dollar QB does to a team.

[Crusader]

Pats got one heck of a defense too so this comes down to Joe vs Brady.If Ravens are lucky Joe will aleast play even with Brady and Special Teams wins the game.

[rossihunter2]

Just now, Crusader said:

Pats got one heck of a defense too so this comes down to Joe vs Brady.If Ravens are lucky Joe will aleast play even with Brady and Special Teams wins the game.

where are you getting that from? have you been watching the pats defense? ravens defense is in a completely different class to the pats