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Free Agency 2017 (Players from Other Teams We Should Consider)

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4 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Phili will almost assuredly cut him if he can't be traded, so I can't imagine very much. Mid round pick.

Yeah, I've seen that around, what would the cap implications be if we do trade for him, I know Phil would have to pay him part of his salary but I don't think the year one cap hit will be sizable. He does have a cap hit of $10M though for 2018 so I honestly think a cut would be the best route for us. 

Edited by PurpleCity5
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10 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I'm focusing on this part because this is the crux of where we differ. 

The Ravens said they want a complimentary receiver. I don't think that means big, physical and who can make plays down field when needed. 

I honestly don't think Marshall, Garçon or Britt is necessarily what they're looking for, but I'd definitely take Marshall bc I think he's a far superior player that won't cost as much and can likely be had on a shorter deal and therefore you're not taking on as much risk. 

Britt is going to cost similar to the other two, but doesn't have the track record (even if comparable over a recent 2-3 year snap shot), has never stood out on a good team, and is going to require a 5 year commitment. Not doing that on a questionable player. 

Side note: for any of the 1st down stats to really tell us anything we'd have to know things like average depth of target and down/distance of each. Meaning if every throw to a player was at a depth of 12 yds and on 1st down and 10... yes every catch will be a 1st down. That doesn't mean he's a clutch guy on 3rd down who gets open in obvious passing situations and can fight for that 1st. 

Not knocking or discrediting any of it... just pointing out that without context it's just as simple as comparing yards and catches. 

I think Britt will be looking at Marvin Jones type money at about 4yrs 28Mil that will probably have big bonus money and a smaller cap number over the first two year. I think Garcon will be looking at a much larger commitment imo. Somewhere around 4yrs 36Mil. It's my thinking that moving forward Britt and Garcon will produce at a similar rate, but Britt has the potential to be much more of a difference maker imo. 

I agree that Garcon has  proven track record and Britt doesn't as much. Imo that's why Britt will come cheaper but looking at their 3 year trend track which is more of a future indicator then a entire career, Britt will be a bargain for some team. That's my only point. All the stats were just to show that difference between the 2 might not be as far apart as many think. 

As for the 3rd down stats. I pointed you to this site at some point, I'm sure it probably got lost through all the other stats. It only gives one year but again, what you've done for me lately gives a much better indicator of what you can do for me moving forward than your entire career imo. The site i looked at Britt converting 17 3rd downs into 1st downs. That's 36% of his 1st downs coming when the team needed him to make a play on 3rd down. They only ranked that top 21 WRs and Garcon didn't make the list so I couldn't get his numbers. http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=104

In terms of cutting Wallace for Britt. I think Britt has proven enough to show that he'd be more of a consistent chain mover and could also provide the same big plays as Wallace, so imo it's an upgrade. I like Mike Wallace to be clear. 

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3 hours ago, The Raven said:

The problem is that Aiken probably has an issue with re-signing. I highly doubt he sticks around.

I don't think he will and I don't think the Ravens really want him, but if he did stick I wouldn't be upset. 

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3 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Yeah, I've seen that around, what would the cap implications be if we do trade for him, I know Phil would have to pay him part of his salary but I don't think the year one cap hit will be sizable. He does have a cap hit of $10M though for 2018 so I honestly think a cut would be the best route for us. 

Honestly doubt he gets cut. There'll be enough suitors. Baltimore will either have to buckle up or lose him like Marshall.

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5 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

While the numbers look as though they point to Britt, I don't trust him or his knees. Also, thinking those stats are probably a product of him being the lone option in the Rams receiving corps. Remember 2015 Aiken? 

Marshall is a beast but will be high $ and brings his own set of risks.

For me Garcon is the best option of these 3. He's sure handed, been pretty healthy throughout his career and is a stand up guy. Just seems to make sense.  Question is are the Skins going to let him walk and if he's available can the Ravens sign him. I for one sure hope so. 

Edit.... Just read some of the other related posts and it looks like I just regurgitated much of what has already been said. Sorry for the repeat. 

Np, a lot of those post were pretty long. 

But what I will say about Britt and the notion that he's an injury risk, he's missed 1 game in the last 3 years and a total of 7 since getting injure in the 2011 season. In that 5 year window h's played more games than Dez Bryant, Aj Green and Julio Jones. He torn both his ACl and MCL in 2011, dealt with the recovery process in 2012 and hasn't been much of a injury concern since. I think his injury history and the lack of trust in him is really only a concern because people don't hear about him as a result of playing for the terrible Rams. 

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Marshall or Garcon as a free agent signing. The safety from the Cardinals if possible and that's it. The rest we'll get from the draft. We need draft picks this year because it is a deep draft with good talent all around. If we can't get the player we covet or there are more than a few we covet in the first that are available when we are drafting, I say trade back into the low 20s'  and accumulate more picks potentially a late second or an early 3rd. Those picks have potential to be starters.

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21 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Yeah, I've seen that around, what would the cap implications be if we do trade for him, I know Phil would have to pay him part of his salary but I don't think the year one cap hit will be sizable. He does have a cap hit of $10M though for 2018 so I honestly think a cut would be the best route for us. 

He'd have to be cut unless they get him to agree to a new deal before the trade.  The site I normally use is down, but it looks like Barwin has a 7M salary this season so that full 7M goes to the new team if he's traded

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I think Micah Hyde would be a great addition to this team. He can play outside, slot, and both safety positions which would let the Ravens be more creative on the defensive side. To me, he is like a very poor man's Tyrann Mathieu. Also, with the amount of injuries we have at DB, his versatility would help soften the blow if/ when one of our guys go down.

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I know Juice is probably more of a priority but what about Mike Tolbert if we can't re-sign Juice? Think he can take on the Vonta Leach role and help with the run game. Would be nice to potentially re-sign Juice and get Tolbert since Juice also can play TE and Tolbert can take snaps at RB for a goal line back.

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1 hour ago, JO_75 said:

I know Juice is probably more of a priority but what about Mike Tolbert if we can't re-sign Juice? Think he can take on the Vonta Leach role and help with the run game. Would be nice to potentially re-sign Juice and get Tolbert since Juice also can play TE and Tolbert can take snaps at RB for a goal line back.

 

Honestly, I'd rather spend that money on Lawrence Guy.   

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1 hour ago, JO_75 said:

I know Juice is probably more of a priority but what about Mike Tolbert if we can't re-sign Juice? Think he can take on the Vonta Leach role and help with the run game. Would be nice to potentially re-sign Juice and get Tolbert since Juice also can play TE and Tolbert can take snaps at RB for a goal line back.

I think we are not using Juice to his full abilities.  Id like to see him get around 10 touches a game, seeing him in the slot would be interesting.  Seems like any time he touches the ball he makes something out of nothing. 

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11 minutes ago, Deflated Football said:

Brandon Marshall and Tony Jefferson is my dream scenario with Garçon behind Marshall. Just get Tony Jefferson please!

Would we cut Webb then?

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4 hours ago, usmccharles said:

I think we are not using Juice to his full abilities.  Id like to see him get around 10 touches a game, seeing him in the slot would be interesting.  Seems like any time he touches the ball he makes something out of nothing. 

This is where I'm at. And honestly, I'm not sure Juice is worth the money unless we significantly expand his role. I want to see him used as the weapon he is.

I still have the feeling that the Patriots or maybe the Packers outbid us to use him as the down the seams threat he can be. It pisses me off that this guy lit up the seams in college and we don't even give him looks there. I'm not saying he'd be as dominant in the seams now as he was in college but there's potential there. He's just a good match up. He can outrun backers and bowl over DBs. Give him a chance on something other than a flat is what I'm saying.

Edited by The Raven
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5 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Would we cut Webb then?

If he wants to stay a Raven, he'd have to settle for a significant decrease in pay and a backup job, which is the right thing to do in my opinion 

Edited by Deflated Football
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1 hour ago, The Raven said:

This is where I'm at. And honestly, I'm not sure Juice is worth the money unless we significantly expand his role. I want to see him used as the weapon he is.

I still have the feeling that the Patriots or maybe the Packers outbid us to use him as the down the seams threat he can be. It pisses me off that this guy lit up the seams in college and we don't even give him looks there. I'm not saying he'd be as dominant in the seams now as he was in college but there's potential there. He's just a good match up. He can outrun backers and bowl over DBs. Give him a chance on something other than a flat is what I'm saying.

Won't happen with the offensive mastermind that is Marty M

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1 hour ago, Deflated Football said:

If he wants to stay a Raven, he'd have to settle for a significant decrease in pay and a backup job, which is the right thing to do in my opinion 

Webb was ranked the 14th best safety last year and can play free safety, strong safety, nickel corner and probably outside corner as well . His versatility and his ability to multitask is what gave Eric Weddle the freedom to roam around the field and having two safeties that aren't limited helps with keeping the secondary versatile in my opinion.

 

1 hour ago, Deflated Football said:

Won't happen with the offensive mastermind that is Marty M

 Marty M hasn't been a stranger at all with using fullbacks in the passing game so i'm not entirely sure about this .

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And @Deflated Football 14th may seem low but there are 64 starting safeties in the NFL. Meaning hes above average easily. I love me some Tony Jefferson, but Arizona won't let him go. 

7 hours ago, The Raven said:

This is where I'm at. And honestly, I'm not sure Juice is worth the money unless we significantly expand his role. I want to see him used as the weapon he is.

I still have the feeling that the Patriots or maybe the Packers outbid us to use him as the down the seams threat he can be. It pisses me off that this guy lit up the seams in college and we don't even give him looks there. I'm not saying he'd be as dominant in the seams now as he was in college but there's potential there. He's just a good match up. He can outrun backers and bowl over DBs. Give him a chance on something other than a flat is what I'm saying.

I think we keep Juice at the end of the day. Still an underrated pick. I hate that people give Ozzie flack for this. 

 

12 hours ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

Honestly, I'd rather spend that money on Lawrence Guy.   

Lol. He won't be too expensive. Love the Guy(no pun intended), but he's probably going to leave regardless. I think the organization is confident in Henry/Kaufausi going forward. 

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8 hours ago, jazz1988 said:

Webb was ranked the 14th best safety last year and can play free safety, strong safety, nickel corner and probably outside corner as well . His versatility and his ability to multitask is what gave Eric Weddle the freedom to roam around the field and having two safeties that aren't limited helps with keeping the secondary versatile in my opinion.

 

 Marty M hasn't been a stranger at all with using fullbacks in the passing game so i'm not entirely sure about this .

The issue isn't about using the fullback position. We know from Juice's 37 catches in 2016 that Marty uses the fullback position in the passing game, but that's not the issue.

The issue is using Juice -- the player, not the position -- up to his individual potential. Juice got plenty of catches as a fullback under Marty. That's no secret. But how many were botched screen plays, useless flats, or ball routes? Just about all of them. He's capable of doing more. He's capable, in my opinion, of having a bigger impact than Pitta. His ability to break tackles and get YACs far exceeds Pitta and this stage in their careers. 

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2 hours ago, The Raven said:

The issue isn't about using the fullback position. We know from Juice's 37 catches in 2016 that Marty uses the fullback position in the passing game, but that's not the issue.

The issue is using Juice -- the player, not the position -- up to his individual potential. Juice got plenty of catches as a fullback under Marty. That's no secret. But how many were botched screen plays, useless flats, or ball routes? Just about all of them. He's capable of doing more. He's capable, in my opinion, of having a bigger impact than Pitta. His ability to break tackles and get YACs far exceeds Pitta and this stage in their careers. 

I personally have  no problem with the way Juice been used so far. I can't really remember alot of plays he was involved in that was useless but of course he could be use more creatively. The last time I remember Juice being used on a flat route last year at the fullback position was against The Patriot  which he had a 40 yard gain after breaking some tackles

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47 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

I personally have  no problem with the way Juice been used so far. I can't really remember alot of plays he was involved in that was useless but of course he could be use more creatively. The last time I remember Juice being used on a flat route last year at the fullback position was against The Patriot  which he had a 40 yard gain after breaking some tackles

Tell me again how many flats turned into 40 yard gains. 

I have a big problem with how he's used because he's being under utilized. We aren't getting the most of our guys. That's a problem. Juice could probably be used as a number two TE on some teams and we're using him as a traditional fullback and flat route specialist. 

We're limiting our own ability by not thinking more broadly about how we can use our players. Juice would bring a whole new element to the offense. With Kenneth Dixon and Juice, we have the capability to to give a defense a wide variety different looks. Think about it. We could come out in your standard I formation, or we could even go empty. Not a lot of teams have the capability to run an empty set with their base personnel. We could put either in the slot.

Defenses send out their personnel based on the offense's personnel. If we have a 21 personnel set out there, the defense sounds out its base -- a standard seven man front. But the thing is that Dixon and Juice are capable receiving threats. Flex Juice to the slot or as an offline TE. Go empty. Linebackers suck in space. Take advantage of that. Hell, line up in I, motion Juice out to the slot, and then run it to throw the defense off guard. Run a play action off of that later. You could run a hell of a crack play with Juice in the slot.

There's so much we could do with that personnel group, and we're shooting ourselves in the foot by not doing it.

Hate to make this comparison but Juice is similar in build and versatility to Aaron Hernandez. Both are versatile guys that are a little short to be traditional tight ends but could fill other roles. Sometimes, Hernandez faced safeties in coverage because he'd torch backers. If defenses end up respecting Juice as a receiving threat, they may send out a safety to cover him instead of a backer. Then you still have base personnel out there against a nickel set, which sets you up nicely for a run play. That's a lineman's dream, running power against a nickel set while in base. 

I may be overselling Juice's ability, but the point is that we aren't even trying to use him in different roles. That's stupid.

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7 hours ago, The Raven said:

Tell me again how many flats turned into 40 yard gains. 

I have a big problem with how he's used because he's being under utilized. We aren't getting the most of our guys. That's a problem. Juice could probably be used as a number two TE on some teams and we're using him as a traditional fullback and flat route specialist. 

We're limiting our own ability by not thinking more broadly about how we can use our players. Juice would bring a whole new element to the offense. With Kenneth Dixon and Juice, we have the capability to to give a defense a wide variety different looks. Think about it. We could come out in your standard I formation, or we could even go empty. Not a lot of teams have the capability to run an empty set with their base personnel. We could put either in the slot.

Defenses send out their personnel based on the offense's personnel. If we have a 21 personnel set out there, the defense sounds out its base -- a standard seven man front. But the thing is that Dixon and Juice are capable receiving threats. Flex Juice to the slot or as an offline TE. Go empty. Linebackers suck in space. Take advantage of that. Hell, line up in I, motion Juice out to the slot, and then run it to throw the defense off guard. Run a play action off of that later. You could run a hell of a crack play with Juice in the slot.

There's so much we could do with that personnel group, and we're shooting ourselves in the foot by not doing it.

Hate to make this comparison but Juice is similar in build and versatility to Aaron Hernandez. Both are versatile guys that are a little short to be traditional tight ends but could fill other roles. Sometimes, Hernandez faced safeties in coverage because he'd torch backers. If defenses end up respecting Juice as a receiving threat, they may send out a safety to cover him instead of a backer. Then you still have base personnel out there against a nickel set, which sets you up nicely for a run play. That's a lineman's dream, running power against a nickel set while in base. 

I may be overselling Juice's ability, but the point is that we aren't even trying to use him in different roles. That's stupid.

 

How often does any flat route turn into a 40 yard gain?. I don't think it was created to do so but it definitely can happen especially if the opposing defenders are caught surprise by it or the  player  breaks tackle and etc like Juice. Versatility wise yes I can understand the Hermandez comparison and it's  good comparison it's just that Hermandez was never counted on to block at the fullback position. I have seen Juice being used  in the slot, at running back,fullback and etc. Last year it seem like he was  relied upon playing the running back position and contributing as a  pass blocker on third down. The reason for that was probably main base off the fact that The Ravens running backs suck at pass blocking  but I don't feel like Marty M isn't capable of using Juice in the fashion in which speak of. I'm sure Juice agent willl bring that up because I doubt Juice doesn't want to be involved in the passing game more and if The Ravens don't envision using him more then by all means he deserves to go to a team like The Patriots or Green Bay .

Edited by jazz1988
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On 2/21/2017 at 9:45 PM, Deflated Football said:

If he wants to stay a Raven, he'd have to settle for a significant decrease in pay and a backup job, which is the right thing to do in my opinion 

He would have to take a pay-cut but why would he be a back-up? He was pretty good overall and had a top-5 coverage grade in the final 6 weeks of the season. I think Webb was one of the guys who contributed largely to the secondary in the 1st half of the season. IMO Webb has been catching too much flack this season. 

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