Candidates to be the next OC

[VermontRaven]

6 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

No just total play outcome. I'm not going to go back and watch film to see what YAC was for individual segments, but I'll see if I can find a resource online that has it.

Doesn't break it down by half, but the chart on this page shows how far down field Flacco's passes were caught.

http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/126989/best-and-worst-qbs-of-week-13-andy-dalton-carves-up-eagles

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by VermontRaven

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, VermontRaven said:

Doesn't break it down by half, but the chart on this page shows how far down field Flacco's passes were caught.

http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/126989/best-and-worst-qbs-of-week-13-andy-dalton-carves-up-eagles

 

We are referencing the Cowboys game, not Sunday's game.

[BmoreBird22]

1 minute ago, VermontRaven said:

Doesn't break it down by half, but the chart on this page shows how far down field Flacco's passes were caught.

http://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/126989/best-and-worst-qbs-of-week-13-andy-dalton-carves-up-eagles

We'd need that for the Cowboys game, but that does kinda confirm what I thought when I said the Ravens didn't seem to take many deep shots.

[VermontRaven]

1 minute ago, rmcjacket23 said:

We are referencing the Cowboys game, not Sunday's game.

My bad.  I will look to see if I can find anything.

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, VermontRaven said:

My bad.  I will look to see if I can find anything.

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/teams/366/baltimore-ravens/#Yards After Catch %$SeasonMax=9999&SeasonMin=1990

On a season totality basis, this is one spot I found. You can alter the YAC stats for various metrics (%, YAC per reception, etc.)

Notes:

YAC % - relatively flat when comparing 2015 to 2016, much higher than 2014, but a ton lower than most of 2008-2013. 

YAC/reception - trending downward for three straight years, much lower than the 2008-2012 timeframe

Ironically, on a YAC/game basis, 2015-2016 is by far the highest in franchise history. May have more to do with volume than anything else though.

Think it shows what we probably already knew... more "efficient" in the passing game during the 08-12 timeframe, and more volume based since then. 

[TurkishRaven]

I just want to see more deep shots. We have a qb who can throw and fast receivers. Why not use it more? Other than that I will judge our OC after the season end.

[Tank 92]

The Ravens have won 4 of the last 5 games and the offense has been improving each week as the team has gotten healthier. As long as this trend continues I could give a rat's butt of how many times we run the ball or how far down the field the QBs passes are flying. 

[hereweare]

49 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

We'd need that for the Cowboys game, but that does kinda confirm what I thought when I said the Ravens didn't seem to take many deep shots.

37 minutes ago, TurkishRaven said:

I just want to see more deep shots. We have a qb who can throw and fast receivers. Why not use it more? Other than that I will judge our OC after the season end.

Typically teams have played safeties on top of our WR so that makes it difficult. Marty has adjusted the last 3 games though and used the team's WR speed in crossing routes. Covering someone horizontally is hard enough.. when you have Wallace, Perriman type speed that makes it damn hard. (can't forget SSS he's still fast too and quick in/out of breaks)

Once teams decide to shrink they're safeties to help in the crossing routes or to stop the run , then I'd assume we will see Flacco throw some bombs. But neither have occurred yet

Edited December 6, 2016 by hereweare

[Ravensfan23]

56 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Any of those are going to lead to the same conclusion... 1. You just looked at the box score. I think that's pretty self explanatory since everyone here knows the dangers of box score scouting. 2. You didn't watch. Well, clearly you wouldn't know what you're talking about if you didn't watch. 3. You don't know the game. Again, pretty self explanatory right there. If you don't want it to sound that way, there are plenty of other ways to phrase it, such as, "I disagree that Marty abandoned the run because of how games played out." Anyway...

Yes, I am pretty unhappy with the amount of runs, but it goes further than that. 

I don't really care about the final numbers because, much like in the Dolphins game, final numbers can be misleading. The Ravens finished with about a 2/1 pass to run ratio in the Dolphins game, but were at a 4/1 at one point before they tried milking down the clock.

Also, it's the situational play calling. The Ravens go up by 21 on the Steelers and rush a grand total of two times. I think the two drives following totaled about three minutes. If you just run the ball six times and don't pass once, you can get six minutes by simply taking the clock all the way down. Instead, you've got Flacco throwing incompletions and stopping the clock and forcing the defense to be the scapegoat.

But again, it goes beyond that for me. It's the play calling where he'll run like seven times on a single drive, but then go two or three drives and only run three times total. We get this nice number of 10 runs, but it was heavily influenced by one single drive. It's the abandonment within the game itself where he'll have these long stretches of just pass-pass-pass.

Again, you summed it up perfectly. Your opinion was yours and minds belongs to me. I never said you didn't know what you're talking about. I simply said exactly what I said aloud while watching the game. If you or anyone else took it that way, that's how you choose to take it then that's your right to. Really have no interest in discussing it honestly, let's just talk Ravens. 

So my question for you is, do you think this offense should or better yet must resemble the 2014 offense to have be consistently successful?

The reason I ask is because you seem sold out to making sure the run game gets adequate touches. No matter the flow of the game, make sure the run game is getting work. Me personal, I've always thought that mentality has held the offense back. Make no mistake the likes of Ray Rice and Forsett have done some great things for this offense and I see Dixon in that mold. However, I've always thought this offense needed to be a multi dimensional unit. If teams take away the run, the passing game needs to be built to carry the offense. if the offense is struggling, than the run game needs to be good enough to lean on and if both are working than the defense has a headache trying to stop it. 

I think they are close to that. I just feel that you're gonna handcuff your OC/play caller if you're forcing him to run despite the flow of the game suggesting he continue to pass. if that's the case than Marty probably isn't the right guy for the job because he seems very interested in running the offense through his franchise QB and using the run game as a compliment. I'm more than happy with the way Marty is doing things. 

[allblackraven]

19 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Again, you summed it up perfectly. Your opinion was yours and minds belongs to me. I never said you didn't know what you're talking about. I simply said exactly what I said aloud while watching the game. If you or anyone else took it that way, that's how you choose to take it then that's your right to. Really have no interest in discussing it honestly, let's just talk Ravens. 

So my question for you is, do you think this offense should or better yet must resemble the 2014 offense to have be consistently successful?

The reason I ask is because you seem sold out to making sure the run game gets adequate touches. No matter the flow of the game, make sure the run game is getting work. Me personal, I've always thought that mentality has held the offense back. Make no mistake the likes of Ray Rice and Forsett have done some great things for this offense and I see Dixon in that mold. However, I've always thought this offense needed to be a multi dimensional unit. If teams take away the run, the passing game needs to be built to carry the offense. if the offense is struggling, than the run game needs to be good enough to lean on and if both are working than the defense has a headache trying to stop it. 

I think they are close to that. I just feel that you're gonna handcuff your OC/play caller if you're forcing him to run despite the flow of the game suggesting he continue to pass. if that's the case than Marty probably isn't the right guy for the job because he seems very interested in running the offense through his franchise QB and using the run game as a compliment. I'm more than happy with the way Marty is doing things. 

That all makes sense but what does Marty do when passing game doesn't click like it did Sunday? He forces more passing and more frustration, similar to what Trestman did. I'd rather have more balance to start with.

[rmcjacket23]

21 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Again, you summed it up perfectly. Your opinion was yours and minds belongs to me. I never said you didn't know what you're talking about. I simply said exactly what I said aloud while watching the game. If you or anyone else took it that way, that's how you choose to take it then that's your right to. Really have no interest in discussing it honestly, let's just talk Ravens. 

So my question for you is, do you think this offense should or better yet must resemble the 2014 offense to have be consistently successful?

The reason I ask is because you seem sold out to making sure the run game gets adequate touches. No matter the flow of the game, make sure the run game is getting work. Me personal, I've always thought that mentality has held the offense back. Make no mistake the likes of Ray Rice and Forsett have done some great things for this offense and I see Dixon in that mold. However, I've always thought this offense needed to be a multi dimensional unit. If teams take away the run, the passing game needs to be built to carry the offense. if the offense is struggling, than the run game needs to be good enough to lean on and if both are working than the defense has a headache trying to stop it. 

I think they are close to that. I just feel that you're gonna handcuff your OC/play caller if you're forcing him to run despite the flow of the game suggesting he continue to pass. if that's the case than Marty probably isn't the right guy for the job because he seems very interested in running the offense through his franchise QB and using the run game as a compliment. I'm more than happy with the way Marty is doing things. 

I think this is the problem though... at no point in time this season have I thought we could actually "lean on" the run game. There's games where Joe just hasn't been very good, and in a lot of those games, we weren't overly effective at running the ball either.

I think this has improved to a certain extent with Marty as OC, but there were games where the obvious gameplan should have been to run the ball early and often against a bad run defense. The Redskins game comes to mind. 

I personally will never be one of those guys who puts an arbitrary quantity of runs or says that we have to be "balanced" in order to be effective. I don't think running the ball just for the sake of running the ball is effective at all.

But I can say for certainty that I've felt that the offense could lean on the passing game more this season and be successful than by leaning on the running game and being successful. I've written countless posts about how I don't think our Oline (I know, plenty of injury issues and shuffling) as been overly effective as run-blockers, and there are key downs and distances where we just flat out suck (2nd and short, for example, where we are absurdly bad). Until those things change, I don't see the point in making a "balanced" offense in terms of play selection (run vs pass). 

We need to be overall better at running the ball when we do run it before we start talking about carrying the ball 30 times a game. When you're averaging like 2-3 YPC on your first 10-15 runs, I have no interest in running it 10-15 more times.

[rmcjacket23]

6 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

That all makes sense but what does Marty do when passing game doesn't click like it did Sunday? He forces more passing and more frustration, similar to what Trestman did. I'd rather have more balance to start with.

Not sure you can really support this theory though. We've seen him lean on the running drives and certain times and certain drives. 

I think this is mostly a myth that we've been discussing and how a ton of it depends on gameflow and game situation. Down and distance, penalties, lack of effectiveness in the running game all play a part there.

[Purple_City39]

I don't believe in balance for the sake of balance.  We've won 4 of the last 5 with the only loss being to the best team in the league.  If the winning continues and the offense keeps scoring then I don't care how they do it.  50 RB runs, 50 passes, 50 QB sneaks, etc.  I don't care at all.

[Ravensfan23]

21 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

That all makes sense but what does Marty do when passing game doesn't click like it did Sunday? He forces more passing and more frustration, similar to what Trestman did. I'd rather have more balance to start with.

But again we're talking about the flow of each game. What happens when the passing game isn't working but the run game is. We'll find out when we get there. But a balanced offense isn't always a successful offense. During the Bengals game, the offense was about as balanced as you could imagine, yet they still stalled out on most drives in the 2nd half. 

How about this, how about the guys who like the balance offensive style, let me as you this. What will have great balance allow this offense to do better?

[allblackraven]

1 minute ago, Ravensfan23 said:

But again we're talking about the flow of each game. What happens when the passing game isn't working but the run game is. We'll find out when we get there. But a balanced offense isn't always a successful offense. During the Bengals game, the offense was about as balanced as you could imagine, yet they still stalled out on most drives in the 2nd half. 

How about this, how about the guys who like the balance offensive style, let me as you this. What will have great balance allow this offense to do better?

It keeps opposing offense less balanced and guessing and gives you more options to make some plays. Having said that, I do think that we have a QB capable of winning with a limited run success, as long as O line does its job. 

[rmcjacket23]

3 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

It keeps opposing offense less balanced and guessing and gives you more options to make some plays. Having said that, I do think that we have a QB capable of winning with a limited run success, as long as O line does its job. 

That's IF it is effective. If the defense figures out it can stop our running game with 5-6 man fronts, then it makes us even more one-dimensional.

[Ravensfan23]

24 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I think this is the problem though... at no point in time this season have I thought we could actually "lean on" the run game. There's games where Joe just hasn't been very good, and in a lot of those games, we weren't overly effective at running the ball either.

I think this has improved to a certain extent with Marty as OC, but there were games where the obvious gameplan should have been to run the ball early and often against a bad run defense. The Redskins game comes to mind. 

I personally will never be one of those guys who puts an arbitrary quantity of runs or says that we have to be "balanced" in order to be effective. I don't think running the ball just for the sake of running the ball is effective at all.

But I can say for certainty that I've felt that the offense could lean on the passing game more this season and be successful than by leaning on the running game and being successful. I've written countless posts about how I don't think our Oline (I know, plenty of injury issues and shuffling) as been overly effective as run-blockers, and there are key downs and distances where we just flat out suck (2nd and short, for example, where we are absurdly bad). Until those things change, I don't see the point in making a "balanced" offense in terms of play selection (run vs pass). 

We need to be overall better at running the ball when we do run it before we start talking about carrying the ball 30 times a game. When you're averaging like 2-3 YPC on your first 10-15 runs, I have no interest in running it 10-15 more times.

I think what we're seeing is a run game that's set up by the pass game and most fans don't seem to realize it. As you mentioned the Ravens don't have a line up and physically beat you 30-40 times per game rushing attack. That's just not what you'll get out of this unit and it shouldn't be that way honestly. I never, even when Forsett was here (never saw him making the team) thought of this team as run first in 2016. When talking about all the ways the Ravens could beat teams the run game was probably last. When a few people that hated the Stanley pick pointed out how he doesn't get much push in the run game, my response was he'll just have to seal his guy off and get to the 2nd level because the Ravens won't be leaning on the run much this year. The appeal of the running game and the RBs to me is getting them out in space. I've always thought this offense was going to be a spread type offense that would take advantage of light box fronts to have a successful running game. Much like the Pats and Packers. Run when needed but you aren't gonna really have strong running games each week. 

As I've mentioned before, the Ravens have had 5 100 yard games in the 7 games Marty has coached and people aren't happy with that. The reason imo is because people are used to the Ravens being run first and you have the misconception that if Flacco throws more than 40 times the offense is doomed. Well even though some numbers have proven that to be true, the main thing to is that when the oline is built to protect Flacco 35-40 times a game the Ravens are much better equipped to win. When Harbs came out this past offseason that the Ravens would use a RB by committee this season, even with Forsett healthy, I smiled so big because I knew Harbs was finally getting out of that "Ravens Way" mode and finally excepting the fact that this offense is going to go as far a 5 will take them and because that's true you must build the offense around him, not the running game  

[AsianRice]

7 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I think what we're seeing is a run game that's set up by the pass game and most fans don't seem to realize it. As you mentioned the Ravens don't have a line up and physically beat you 30-40 times per game rushing attack. That's just not what you'll get out of this unit and it shouldn't be that way honestly. I never, even when Forsett was here (never saw him making the team) thought of this team as run first in 2016. When talking about all the ways the Ravens could beat teams the run game was probably last. When a few people that hated the Stanley pick pointed out how he doesn't get much push in the run game, my response was he'll just have to seal his guy off and get to the 2nd level because the Ravens won't be leaning on the run much this year. The appeal of the running game and the RBs to me is getting them out in space. I've always thought this offense was going to be a spread type offense that would take advantage of light box fronts to have a successful running game. Much like the Pats and Packers. Run when needed but you aren't gonna really have strong running games each week. 

As I've mentioned before, the Ravens have had 5 100 yard games in the 7 games Marty has coached and people aren't happy with that. The reason imo is because people are used to the Ravens being run first and you have the misconception that if Flacco throws more than 40 times the offense is doomed. Well even though some numbers have proven that to be true, the main thing to is that when the oline is built to protect Flacco 35-40 times a game the Ravens are much better equipped to win. When Harbs came out this past offseason that the Ravens would use a RB by committee this season, even with Forsett healthy, I smiled so big because I knew Harbs was finally getting out of that "Ravens Way" mode and finally excepting the fact that this offense is going to go as far a 5 will take them and because that's true you must build the offense around him, not the running game  

I did re-watched the 2012 SB run and I see how much clean pocket Joe had; he was confident so much that he audibled out the run game to pass play for back shoulder throw to Boldin to get a crucial first; if we ran that play, we will be forced to punt and we would lead the game by 2pts instead of 5pts in last min of the game.  Clean pocket really boost QB's confidence that much......

 

The Pats are so good over such a long-span cuz they build a strong o-line....

 

I think we are heading to the right direction as John's envision.....

[Ravensfan23]

5 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

It keeps opposing offense less balanced and guessing and gives you more options to make some plays. Having said that, I do think that we have a QB capable of winning with a limited run success, as long as O line does its job. 

Here's the thing, the passing game if done right does the same exact thing. We'll look at the rush attempt and say oh the offense was pass happy, but when you watch the game and see the amount of short passes that force the LBs to read and react before attacking the ball it serves the same purpose as the run. Don't want to turn this into a Flacco thread, but the short passing game, checkdowns, screens, shallow crosses, slants, sight adjustments etc, is how most high powered offenses control the game and keep defenses off balance and guess. You mix in 20-27 runs and if you get to run a 4 minute offense to close out the game you might get up to 30+ rushes. 

 

27 minutes ago, AsianRice said:

I did re-watched the 2012 SB run and I see how much clean pocket Joe had; he was confident so much that he audibled out the run game to pass play for back shoulder throw to Boldin to get a crucial first; if we ran that play, we will be forced to punt and we would lead the game by 2pts instead of 5pts in last min of the game.  Clean pocket really boost QB's confidence that much......

 

The Pats are so good over such a long-span cuz they build a strong o-line....

 

I think we are heading to the right direction as John's envision.....

I definitely think we're heading in the right direction. Marty is doing a hellava job imo. Flacco is getting more comfortable and confident with the offense. He knows where everyone is in his progressions, where about 6 weeks ago he was missing reads which is understandable. The oline is doing really good and much like the 2012 SB run, the offensive design is masking some of their deficiencies. 

Speaking of the oline. I'm loving Stanley and Wagner right now. Rick should be a priority FA for this team even moreso than BW imo. I know many will say that Lewis can easily replace Wagner, but i'm not so sure. Wagner is playing at a pro bowl level right now and I don't think it's a coincidence that the last time he was healthy in 2014 he looked like one of the best RTs in the NFL and now he's really close to that form if not surpassing it. I think all the Ravens need to do is identify a quality Center and they might just have  one in Skura on the PS. 

I know many will be skeptical about whether the offense can sustain the type of performance they had Sunday. I definitely think they can and will.That performance has been brewing for much of the season, they just couldn't put it together. They finally did and I don't see why that wouldn't continue. 

 

[BmoreBird22]

2 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

So my question for you is, do you think this offense should or better yet must resemble the 2014 offense to have be consistently successful?

The reason I ask is because you seem sold out to making sure the run game gets adequate touches. No matter the flow of the game, make sure the run game is getting work. Me personal, I've always thought that mentality has held the offense back. Make no mistake the likes of Ray Rice and Forsett have done some great things for this offense and I see Dixon in that mold. However, I've always thought this offense needed to be a multi dimensional unit. If teams take away the run, the passing game needs to be built to carry the offense. if the offense is struggling, than the run game needs to be good enough to lean on and if both are working than the defense has a headache trying to stop it. 

I think they are close to that. I just feel that you're gonna handcuff your OC/play caller if you're forcing him to run despite the flow of the game suggesting he continue to pass. if that's the case than Marty probably isn't the right guy for the job because he seems very interested in running the offense through his franchise QB and using the run game as a compliment. I'm more than happy with the way Marty is doing things. 

I think that the Ravens have had more success this season when the running game has been clicking. I don't think there are very many teams, if any, that can go out there and consistently click on all cylinders without a running game.

As much as the pundits love to praise Brady, they've got a pretty consistent track record for having strong running games and Blount is actually having an All-Pro, easily Pro Bowl, caliber season. 

I don't need to see the Ravens run it 25-30 times a game. I would just like to see more runs mixed in consistently. Like I said, it's very frustrating to see the Ravens open up on their first drive with a 12 play touchdown drive that featured six or seven runs and then all of a sudden move to a pass heavy approach that stalls the offense.

I think Sunday was the first time this season, and in a long time outside of the playoffs, where we can all say Joe dropped jaws and took over the game. The other was in 2014 against the Bucs, but I'm struggling to think of some other games prior to that just because there really aren't many quarterbacks who can consistently take over a game with little help.

I don't think either unit is going to consistently carry the offense without the help of the other one. Hell, maybe Flacco continues this out of his mind play, but something tells me he won't just because the defenses from here on out are going to start getting tougher. The Eagles and Patriots in back to back weeks have very strong defenses and I think it's going to take a balanced approach to keep them guessing so they can't pin their ears back and get after Joe or just stack the box and shut down the run.

I honestly think Joe, like just about all quarterbacks, does well when the defense has to hesitate to account for the run game. I think Joe can make every throw in the book and beat any coverage, but a little help in easing up those defensive fronts can go a long way.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Another thing not taken into account in this run/pass discussion is the number of designed, quick RB screens we've used, especially against the Dolphins that in essence acted as long hand offs. 

Marty was very effective in supplementing the run game with that sort of play calling in his time with Westbrook in Philly. 

Early we tried a lot more slower developing wide screens but against Miami we had several where Joe invited the rush and hit Dixon/West just outside the tackle. 

Got us 1on1 with a LB and often chunk yardage. 

So idc much about the run/pass ratio so long as we're efficient in what we're doing. If we can continue to use that short screen game to get the RBs in space and to the 2nd level than I'm all for that as opposed to forcing runs where we're getting hit at or behind the LoS. 

Plus just bc we were ripping of 6ypc doesn't mean that would've continued had we stuck with the run more often. It's bc we set up the pass and pulled guys out of the box that we were so effective down the stretch. 

Being able to run the ball will be key. But I'm ok with the game Marty called. As long as the backs are getting effective touches I don't care how they come. They're both good weapons and need to be used, and those screens basically count as runs imo. Brady and the Pats completely supplemented their run game for years with those types of plays when they didn't have a good between the tackle runner like green-Ellis or Blount. Vareen, Woodhead, Lewis, white, etc... have made a living like that. We have guys that can do both. 

[sibelius]

11 hours ago, hereweare said:

Typically teams have played safeties on top of our WR so that makes it difficult. Marty has adjusted the last 3 games though and used the team's WR speed in crossing routes. Covering someone horizontally is hard enough.. when you have Wallace, Perriman type speed that makes it damn hard. (can't forget SSS he's still fast too and quick in/out of breaks)

Once teams decide to shrink they're safeties to help in the crossing routes or to stop the run , then I'd assume we will see Flacco throw some bombs. But neither have occurred yet

If anything, I'm encouraged we have a QB that has finally proven that he can do both. He needs to do it against better defenses but a Joe Flacco that can consistently beat you at any level of the field is one something the rest of league wants no parts of.

[Ravensfan23]

8 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I think that the Ravens have had more success this season when the running game has been clicking. I don't think there are very many teams, if any, that can go out there and consistently click on all cylinders without a running game.

As much as the pundits love to praise Brady, they've got a pretty consistent track record for having strong running games and Blount is actually having an All-Pro, easily Pro Bowl, caliber season. 

I don't need to see the Ravens run it 25-30 times a game. I would just like to see more runs mixed in consistently. Like I said, it's very frustrating to see the Ravens open up on their first drive with a 12 play touchdown drive that featured six or seven runs and then all of a sudden move to a pass heavy approach that stalls the offense.

I think Sunday was the first time this season, and in a long time outside of the playoffs, where we can all say Joe dropped jaws and took over the game. The other was in 2014 against the Bucs, but I'm struggling to think of some other games prior to that just because there really aren't many quarterbacks who can consistently take over a game with little help.

I don't think either unit is going to consistently carry the offense without the help of the other one. Hell, maybe Flacco continues this out of his mind play, but something tells me he won't just because the defenses from here on out are going to start getting tougher. The Eagles and Patriots in back to back weeks have very strong defenses and I think it's going to take a balanced approach to keep them guessing so they can't pin their ears back and get after Joe or just stack the box and shut down the run.

I honestly think Joe, like just about all quarterbacks, does well when the defense has to hesitate to account for the run game. I think Joe can make every throw in the book and beat any coverage, but a little help in easing up those defensive fronts can go a long way.

I definitely agree with everything you said. No way will every game be like the Dolphins game. From my vantage point the great thing about the Dolphins game is that the Ravens offense was able to take advantage of a weakness they spotted on film and never stopped, in fact they may have done it too much as I would have liked to see the running game more when Mallett got in the game but I understand getting him some work.

What we saw Sunday didn't get me excited because that's the way the offense should look all the time, not it was exciting because that's what the offense is capable of when they identify a weakness. I don't care if it's a player or the scheme all together, if a weakness is spotted I want the offense to be able to take advantage of it and continue to do it until the other team makes adjustments. Will that same gameplan work against the Pats, who knows but that's why it's called a game plan not a season plan.

I don't think the defense the Ravens will face are any tougher than the Dolphins honestly. I think the names of the teams are tougher but if you look at the numbers and how each team is playing, they are all pretty much equal to the Dolphins. But again that gameplan might not be the same exact gameplan and it definitely might not be executed the same way. I think the point is the Ravens are capable of deploying many different gameplans to beat teams based on what they view as the weakness of said team.

I don't think either unit will consistently carry the team either, but that balance isn't always within a game. Sometimes you'll have to be pass happy to move the ball well and than rely on the run to seal the deal with a TD. Than when the game is seemingly in hand you use the run to shut the door. You point out guys like Brady. Yes he uses the run game really well, but that team isn't balanced in the traditional sense. Those guys really rely on the pass early to get ahead and work their offense. The run game is more to just keep the defense honest and allow for playaction when needed. Than once they are up by 2 or more scores in the 4th quarter they use the run game heavily. If you look at Blount closer, you'll see that he rarely touches the ball 20 times or more. It's Brady that really controls that offense and the short pass is really an extension of the run game. The biggest thing that separates those guys from the Ravens situation is that they finish drives with TDs when given the opportunity. This put them up late in games and that's where the running game kicks in. When the Ravens have drives stall during games, I don't think it's direct result of the run or pass not working, it's more so because self inflicting wounds that cause the offense to stall. How many times have we seen a successful play taken away by penalty. Or a play that should have resulted in a TD but instead it was dropped or the WR stepped out of bounds? I think that's the biggest difference right there and if that issue can consistently be solved than you'll see the Ravens have a ton of success offensively, both run and pass. 

[BmoreBird22]

8 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I definitely agree with everything you said. No way will every game be like the Dolphins game. From my vantage point the great thing about the Dolphins game is that the Ravens offense was able to take advantage of a weakness they spotted on film and never stopped, in fact they may have done it too much as I would have liked to see the running game more when Mallett got in the game but I understand getting him some work.

What we saw Sunday didn't get me excited because that's the way the offense should look all the time, not it was exciting because that's what the offense is capable of when they identify a weakness. I don't care if it's a player or the scheme all together, if a weakness is spotted I want the offense to be able to take advantage of it and continue to do it until the other team makes adjustments. Will that same gameplan work against the Pats, who knows but that's why it's called a game plan not a season plan.

I don't think the defense the Ravens will face are any tougher than the Dolphins honestly. I think the names of the teams are tougher but if you look at the numbers and how each team is playing, they are all pretty much equal to the Dolphins. But again that gameplan might not be the same exact gameplan and it definitely might not be executed the same way. I think the point is the Ravens are capable of deploying many different gameplans to beat teams based on what they view as the weakness of said team.

I don't think either unit will consistently carry the team either, but that balance isn't always within a game. Sometimes you'll have to be pass happy to move the ball well and than rely on the run to seal the deal with a TD. Than when the game is seemingly in hand you use the run to shut the door. You point out guys like Brady. Yes he uses the run game really well, but that team isn't balanced in the traditional sense. Those guys really rely on the pass early to get ahead and work their offense. The run game is more to just keep the defense honest and allow for playaction when needed. Than once they are up by 2 or more scores in the 4th quarter they use the run game heavily. If you look at Blount closer, you'll see that he rarely touches the ball 20 times or more. It's Brady that really controls that offense and the short pass is really an extension of the run game. The biggest thing that separates those guys from the Ravens situation is that they finish drives with TDs when given the opportunity. This put them up late in games and that's where the running game kicks in. When the Ravens have drives stall during games, I don't think it's direct result of the run or pass not working, it's more so because self inflicting wounds that cause the offense to stall. How many times have we seen a successful play taken away by penalty. Or a play that should have resulted in a TD but instead it was dropped or the WR stepped out of bounds? I think that's the biggest difference right there and if that issue can consistently be solved than you'll see the Ravens have a ton of success offensively, both run and pass. 

I would have liked to see the run game a bit more just because I really didn't want to see Flacco throwing 37 times against a team with a defensive line that features Suh, Williams, and Wake. That's a really scary pass rushing trio and I'd rather not have Joe tear his ACL again. However, while I find it incredibly unlikely that we see another game like that, I will admit to being a nit picky over this game when it comes to numbers purely because Flacco was so on fire. He was a man possessed in this game and I think this was one of the finest games that we've seen all season from a quarterback. Luck just had a game that might have trumped this one, but I'm struggling to find too many finer performances in terms of making difficult throws and just throwing absolute dimes. 

I think definitely against the Patriots that if the Ravens take a similar approach, we're talking about a totally different narrative. I strongly consider BB to be the greatest defensive mind in the entire NFL and if you lock onto one aspect of his defense to attack, he's just going to adjust and force you to beat him somewhere else. I think that balancing the run game with the passing game will help keep them off balance and stop them from just focusing all their efforts into masking one weakness, which ironically enough is their slow as hell linebackers without Jamie Collins. However, if the Ravens faced the Broncos in the playoffs, they're not going to get away with Joe throwing as much as he did. They're legit the best pass defense in the NFL and I don't think it's all that close. And I think the Texans would be another tough one because of their corner trio and also they have a pretty dangerous pass rush, even without Watt. Clowney is really coming on huge and Mercilus is awesome. Then, of course with the Chiefs getting Houston back and having him, Ford, Hali, and Poe, you have to worry about their pass rush if you pass 80% of the time.

I think you're getting really caught up in the whole Brady carries his team narrative. Do you know how many times they run the ball on average? 29 times per game. That ranks sixth in the NFL. If you take away the teams with a mobile/RPO quarterback (SF, Tenn, Buff, and Dal), they'll rank second, barely behind the Buccs (0.2 rushes per game behind, I believe). Blount is actually fifth in the league in yardage and second in the league in touchdowns. He's ran the ball 20 times or more in four games and had 18 or more carries in 5 other games. So, in 10 out of 12 games, he's carried the ball at least 18 times. It's really not fair to say that they don't like to run the ball because Blount is getting a really hefty amount of carries and they've been really happy to give Dion Lewis seven or eight carries a game since they've gotten him back into the mix. They're a team that likes to run the ball early and often and use it to keep teams off balance. I mean, if we're going to say that the Ravens run the ball a fair amount, the Patriots are doing it even more.

[Ravensfan23]

6 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I think you're getting really caught up in the whole Brady carries his team narrative. Do you know how many times they run the ball on average? 29 times per game. That ranks sixth in the NFL. If you take away the teams with a mobile/RPO quarterback (SF, Tenn, Buff, and Dal), they'll rank second, barely behind the Buccs (0.2 rushes per game behind, I believe). Blount is actually fifth in the league in yardage and second in the league in touchdowns. He's ran the ball 20 times or more in four games and had 18 or more carries in 5 other games. So, in 10 out of 12 games, he's carried the ball at least 18 times. It's really not fair to say that they don't like to run the ball because Blount is getting a really hefty amount of carries and they've been really happy to give Dion Lewis seven or eight carries a game since they've gotten him back into the mix. They're a team that likes to run the ball early and often and use it to keep teams off balance. I mean, if we're going to say that the Ravens run the ball a fair amount, the Patriots are doing it even more.

Again what are we looking at, games or stats? Case and point. Out of those 5 games where he ran the ball 20 times or more, 3 of them came in the first 4 games when Brady was suspended. Why wouldn't they lean on Blount with inexperienced QBs? For the entire season Blount, who is basically their only ball carrier, is averaging 19.1 attempts per game. However since Brady returned in week 5, Brady is averaging 37.7 attempts per game while Blount is averaging 16.5 attempts, White/Lewis are averaging 4.1. That's a total of just 20.6 rushes. Meanwhile under Marty, West is averaging 14 attempts per game and Dixon is averaging 6.1 attempts. That's a total of 20.1 rusher, just shy of the Pats without the inflated numbers where Brady didn't play. Again the difference is, the Patriots run the ball at a far higher rate in the 4th quarter than the Ravens due to them being in position to just eat clock with a lead. 

So let's look at it, you said they like to run the ball early and often. Well of their 348 rush attempts on the season 113 has come in the 4th quarter. Blount alone has 68 4th quarter rushes, by comparison the Ravens as a team has 77 rushes and that includes Kneel downs and Koch's safety. That's where the difference in rushing attempts come from. Over the first 3 quarters of the game, the Pats don't run the ball any more than the Ravens do and less in most cases. They are running the ball on average of 19.5 during the first 3 quarters of the games w/Brady, the Ravens under Marty by comparison are running the ball 18.9. So the difference is that the Pats run the ball nearly 10 times in the 4th quarter while the Ravens run the ball about 4 times in the 4th quarter. 

Bottom line is, the Pats aren't a run first team, they just aren't. They use the run to keep defenses honest and enough to continue to use play action no different than what Marty has been doing. So you're right if we're gonna say the Pats are a run reliant team than you must say the Ravens are too, because once you breakdown the real numbers and not just the stat column you'll see that during the first 3 quarters the Pats and Ravens have nearly the same rushing attempts. However the Pats finish drives with TD more than FGs, while in most games the Ravens were lucky to get a FG out of drives. So by the time the 4th quarter comes, the Pats are in position to play ball control, clock eating offense. The Ravens on the other hand are either down or tied and running the 2min offense which asks Joe to throw the ball more. Yes Blount is having a great year no doubt I can't and won't take anything away from him. If the Pats asked him to run the rock 30+ times i'm sure he'd be having a season that everyone would be talking about. However when teams game plan to stop the Pats, Blount is not at the top of the list. The storyline of MNF will not be Blount vs the top ranked rush D. Teams do all they can to stop Brady's pass game and as a result that running games gets to run against a lot of light fronts.

 

[Willbacker]

Basically what we are looking at is under Trestman we would give up the run game in a close game but against the Dolphins the pass game was working so why deviate. With us jumping out in front the playaction was always there. They had to keep worrying about the run. Just cant give up on the run when you got plenty of clock and the game still in question which was happening under Trestman. You don't neccassarily need any kind of ceratain pass ratio to the run as long as you got all options open. Pedal to the metal.

[Ravensfan23]

2 minutes ago, Willbacker said:

Basically what we are looking at is under Trestman we would give up the run game in a close game but against the Dolphins the pass game was working so why deviate. With us jumping out in front the playaction was always there. They had to keep worrying about the run. Just cant give up on the run when you got plenty of clock and the game still in question which was happening under Trestman. You don't neccassarily need any kind of ceratain pass ratio to the run as long as you got all options open. Pedal to the metal.

Also the thing about the Ravens is that even with no huddle, they produce long clock burning drives. So you can get fooled by the pass attempts of Flacco, because those 2-4 yard passes to the RB, HB and TEs are just the same as the run late in games. It keeps the clock running and the offense ahead of the sticks. 

Imo a OC has to have a great read on his guys and a great feel for the game. Trestman didn't seem to have either during his time here. Marty on the other hand seems to have it. Right after him and Joe go at it in the QB room about staying aggressive, boom, Marty calls a really aggressive game and doesn't let up. I think that's big because you it shows the players that it's not just your way or the highway, the offense is theirs. 

Also I think Yanda summed it up prefect in the Wired segment. He said something like when Joe is on fire like that you just gotta ride him. We don't care how much we run the ball as long as we're scoring. Not his exact words but close. I think that's the mindset for every game honestly. Get Joe into a nice rhythm and if he catches fire ride him. However if things just aren't click early than you hope to be able to lean on the run until you can get that rhythm in the pass game. 

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Bottom line is, the Pats aren't a run first team, they just aren't. They use the run to keep defenses honest and enough to continue to use play action no different than what Marty has been doing. So you're right if we're gonna say the Pats are a run reliant team than you must say the Ravens are too, because once you breakdown the real numbers and not just the stat column you'll see that during the first 3 quarters the Pats and Ravens have nearly the same rushing attempts. However the Pats finish drives with TD more than FGs, while in most games the Ravens were lucky to get a FG out of drives. So by the time the 4th quarter comes, the Pats are in position to play ball control, clock eating offense. The Ravens on the other hand are either down or tied and running the 2min offense which asks Joe to throw the ball more. Yes Blount is having a great year no doubt I can't and won't take anything away from him. If the Pats asked him to run the rock 30+ times i'm sure he'd be having a season that everyone would be talking about. However when teams game plan to stop the Pats, Blount is not at the top of the list. The storyline of MNF will not be Blount vs the top ranked rush D. Teams do all they can to stop Brady's pass game and as a result that running games gets to run against a lot of light fronts.

If we look at Blount's first three weeks, he had 75 rushes. The Patriots on the season have 348 rushes. If we subtract 75 from 348, we get left with 273. Dividing that by the other three games gives us 30.3 rushes per game after those "overinflated" numbers. No matter how you slice it, the Patriots like to run the football.

The Patriots have actually rushed more than the Ravens in every single quarter, significantly so in the second and fourth quarters. Blount himself is getting like 1 more carry on average in the fourth than any other quarter and the Patriots as a team are averaging 2 more rushes in the fourth than any other given quarter, but they've rushed the ball about 20 times in the first three quarters and close it out with a decent dosage, but nothing absurd.

I'd like to actually know where you got your Marty numbers because I don't feel like going game by game and counting because that can lead to error depending on how you total your numbers.

I never said the Patriots were a run first offense. I just said that they're a balanced offense that likes to run the ball. 

And again, it goes further than the numbers. Several times we've seen Marty run the ball like six times on a single drive and then abandon the run to run like two more times on a 10+ play drive. There's a ton of consistency in his play calling in a bad way. You'll either get a ton of runs and a PA pass sprinkled in here or there OR you'll get all passes and no attempt at running the ball. That's my biggest issue. Most of these numbers are going to look all nice because he does run it a fair amount, but it's lopsided and isolated to a few drives a game where he decides to really hammer down on the run. 

I think you asked if I watch Patriots games and the answer is yes, if they are on primetime (and also the Jets game; I did watch that one). The Patriots are really great about getting their running backs involved in the offense in a lot of ways and utilizing them as another cog in the offense that keeps it a well oiled machine. They have had one game of less than 20 rushing attempts by backs since Brady has been back and I believe it was the Jets game (ironic, right?). That game as a whole was horribly sloppy by the Patriots, but that's a different story.

Edit: Just totaled it and excluding quarterback runs, the Patriots are running the ball about 24 times per game, which is a really respectable number. And if Brady passed it about 38 times a game for 16 games, he'd finish with about a 600 pass attempts, so nothing truly absurd. The Patriots are actually running the ball at about a 40% clip with Brady in there. The Ravens are at like 33% under Marty. 

The Patriots are fairly consistent with running the ball in every quarter and making sure each drive features a decent dose of run plays and utilizes the running backs in the passing game in ways that could be perceived as an extension of the run game (little swing passes and wheel routes), not these little dump offs over the middle that the Ravens so dearly love this year. 

Again, my main issue lies 99% with the fact that he either goes run heavy or he goes pass heavy. It's really frustrating.

Edited December 8, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[robbie29]

8 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

If we look at Blount's first three weeks, he had 75 rushes. The Patriots on the season have 348 rushes. If we subtract 75 from 348, we get left with 273. Dividing that by the other three games gives us 30.3 rushes per game after those "overinflated" numbers. No matter how you slice it, the Patriots like to run the football.

The Patriots have actually rushed more than the Ravens in every single quarter, significantly so in the second and fourth quarters. Blount himself is getting like 1 more carry on average in the fourth than any other quarter and the Patriots as a team are averaging 2 more rushes in the fourth than any other given quarter, but they've rushed the ball about 20 times in the first three quarters and close it out with a decent dosage, but nothing absurd.

I'd like to actually know where you got your Marty numbers because I don't feel like going game by game and counting because that can lead to error depending on how you total your numbers.

I never said the Patriots were a run first offense. I just said that they're a balanced offense that likes to run the ball. 

And again, it goes further than the numbers. Several times we've seen Marty run the ball like six times on a single drive and then abandon the run to run like two more times on a 10+ play drive. There's a ton of consistency in his play calling in a bad way. You'll either get a ton of runs and a PA pass sprinkled in here or there OR you'll get all passes and no attempt at running the ball. That's my biggest issue. Most of these numbers are going to look all nice because he does run it a fair amount, but it's lopsided and isolated to a few drives a game where he decides to really hammer down on the run. 

I think you asked if I watch Patriots games and the answer is yes, if they are on primetime (and also the Jets game; I did watch that one). The Patriots are really great about getting their running backs involved in the offense in a lot of ways and utilizing them as another cog in the offense that keeps it a well oiled machine. They have had one game of less than 20 rushing attempts by backs since Brady has been back and I believe it was the Jets game (ironic, right?). That game as a whole was horribly sloppy by the Patriots, but that's a different story.

The Patriots are fairly consistent with running the ball in every quarter and making sure each drive features a decent dose of run plays and utilizes the running backs in the passing game in ways that could be perceived as an extension of the run game (little swing passes and wheel routes), not these little dump offs over the middle that the Ravens so dearly love this year. 

Again, my main issue lies 99% with the fact that he either goes run heavy or he goes pass heavy. It's really frustrating.

Holy cow- I've read novels that are shorter than these posts. 

[Ravensfan23]

50 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

If we look at Blount's first three weeks, he had 75 rushes. The Patriots on the season have 348 rushes. If we subtract 75 from 348, we get left with 273. Dividing that by the other three games gives us 30.3 rushes per game after those "overinflated" numbers. No matter how you slice it, the Patriots like to run the football.

The Patriots have actually rushed more than the Ravens in every single quarter, significantly so in the second and fourth quarters. Blount himself is getting like 1 more carry on average in the fourth than any other quarter and the Patriots as a team are averaging 2 more rushes in the fourth than any other given quarter, but they've rushed the ball about 20 times in the first three quarters and close it out with a decent dosage, but nothing absurd.

I'd like to actually know where you got your Marty numbers because I don't feel like going game by game and counting because that can lead to error depending on how you total your numbers.

I never said the Patriots were a run first offense. I just said that they're a balanced offense that likes to run the ball. 

And again, it goes further than the numbers. Several times we've seen Marty run the ball like six times on a single drive and then abandon the run to run like two more times on a 10+ play drive. There's a ton of consistency in his play calling in a bad way. You'll either get a ton of runs and a PA pass sprinkled in here or there OR you'll get all passes and no attempt at running the ball. That's my biggest issue. Most of these numbers are going to look all nice because he does run it a fair amount, but it's lopsided and isolated to a few drives a game where he decides to really hammer down on the run. 

I think you asked if I watch Patriots games and the answer is yes, if they are on primetime (and also the Jets game; I did watch that one). The Patriots are really great about getting their running backs involved in the offense in a lot of ways and utilizing them as another cog in the offense that keeps it a well oiled machine. They have had one game of less than 20 rushing attempts by backs since Brady has been back and I believe it was the Jets game (ironic, right?). That game as a whole was horribly sloppy by the Patriots, but that's a different story.

The Patriots are fairly consistent with running the ball in every quarter and making sure each drive features a decent dose of run plays and utilizes the running backs in the passing game in ways that could be perceived as an extension of the run game (little swing passes and wheel routes), not these little dump offs over the middle that the Ravens so dearly love this year. 

Again, my main issue lies 99% with the fact that he either goes run heavy or he goes pass heavy. It's really frustrating.

Honestly bro this is pointless, because we continue to look at box score numbers to make an argument and it can't be done. Unless you watch the games or look at certain situational stats then the numbers can be swayed anyway you want. I'd assume neither of us watch as much Pats games as we do Ravens so neither can be accurate, but the point is, you are telling me how the Patriots run the ball so much but they run it the same exact time as the Ravens. You asked were I got the Marty stats from, just look at NFL.com box scores, BR.com box scores or anyone(i wasn't going back to watch all the games lol). Go back and look at the box scores, you say the Patriots have one game of less than 20 rush attempts since Brady came back. That's 8 games. In the 7 games Marty has been OC the Ravens have 24+ rushing attempts in 6 of them, with the Jets game being the lone exception. So how does that prove the Pats run the ball more than the Ravens?

You say Marty "abandons" the run throughout the game because he'll go pass happy after establishing the run but the Pats are consistent at running the ball. Have you ever seen the Pats play? This is exactly what they do. For example this pass game vs the Rams. The pats took a 17 point lead into halftime. Coming out in the 2nd half the Pats ran 14 total offensive plays in the 3rd quarter. 12 of those plays were passes. That means with a 17 point lead they ran the ball a whopping 2 times. That's balance? In the 4th quarter with a 23-3 lead, they ran 17 plays and only 4 were runs. That means in what amounted to a blowout, The Pats passed a total of 29 times and ran the ball 6 times in the second half . Where is the balance?

Let's get real here, no OC calls plays to be perfectly balanced. This offense is going as far as Flacco takes them, not the running game. They aren't built that way. Most of the times the run game has success it's as a result of the defense over compensating for the pass. The oline is healthy and Flacco seems 100%, any OC you'd bring in would be a fool not to build the offense around Flacco and that's exactly what the guy in charge right now is doing.