Candidates to be the next OC

[Ravensfan23]

33 minutes ago, K-Dog said:

Joe Flacco for O.C.

 

Just kidding . 

 

Maybe . 

 

Sorta'.

That is what it'll be the longer he can stay in the same offense. He and Marty seem to have a great relationship where they can be completely open with each other. I wouldn't be surprised if Flacco had a heavy influence in the game plan vs the Dolphins. They seem to be getting on the same page and seeing the game the same way. That's a great thing. 

[BmoreBird22]

30 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I'll say the same thing I said when it was mentioned by the broadcast team during the game. Anybody that has a issue with the running game under Marty either isn't watching the games and Just looking at stats or they are just flat out don't understand the game well enough. I think the only game that Marty can be criticized for abandoning the run is maybe the Jets game but the oline couldn't get any movement in that game at all. 

In that Dolphins game the Ravens found a weakness and exploited it. That is exactly what you want from your OC and if you have a QB/Oline that can handle that heavy pass volume than you do it. Not sure why so many people get so bent out of shape about the Pass:Run being balanced. The ultimate goal is for the offense to produce by finding a teams weakness and exploiting it. If you find a team isn't physical enough to handle your run game than you run it 40 times and ask Flacco to throw less than 20 if that's what it takes. 

I mentioned this to someone else, but each game has it's own story-line. I don't by into the run the ball at all cost or the Ravens are a run first team. I think those things are only thrown around when the offense struggles. The story-line of this game was that the Dolphins couldn't cover the middle of the field and trying to establish the run could have broken the rhythm of the offense. The Ravens used the run game well enough because the play action still worked enough to get guys behind the LBs. 

You run the ball for two reasons imo. To establish your offense and control the clock. The Ravens didn't have an issue at all with either. Even though they passed a lot, they still controlled the clock in both halves. I'll admit, when Mallett entered the game i was very surprised that they were still throwing the ball but I understood. It was still more than 9 minutes left and the offense was focused on keeping their foot on the gas pedal while being smart. So i get it, but I can understand why people could complain, however the Ravens had their short passing game working and the Dolphins couldn't get close to the QB. 

It's a major issue that the Ravens are dead last in first half carries, plain and simple. It's a huge issue that the Ravens are coming out firing on the very first drive of the game, but quickly get shut down. It's a huge issue when you're gashing the Cowboys and playing a close game, but you're just not running the ball (just as a game where it was extremely noticeable with Marty).

I don't really have an issue with passing as much as the Ravens did against the Dolphins, BUT that won't always be the case. You do that against BB and the Patriots and you're going to lose. 

This isn't an issue that occurred once in the Jets game. It's an issue since he took over. The Ravens just haven't run the ball nearly enough in many of the games this year and it's causing an issue with being strong out of the gate, but quickly fading out afterward.

I can't remember what the stat was prior to the Dolphins game, but I think it was that they hadn't won a game when they scored first or led at the half and that goes largely back to running the ball all of 10 times before garbage time.

The Ravens said when Trestman was fired that they wanted more commitment to the run. They never said they had to pound the ball 40 times or that they wanted to run on every single first down. They just wanted more balance. So far, it seems like they've gotten even less balance.

Edited December 6, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[Ravensfan23]

14 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

It's a major issue that the Ravens are dead last in first half carries, plain and simple. It's a huge issue that the Ravens are coming out firing on the very first drive of the game, but quickly get shut down. It's a huge issue when you're gashing the Cowboys and playing a close game, but you're just not running the ball (just as a game where it was extremely noticeable with Marty).

I don't really have an issue with passing as much as the Ravens did against the Dolphins, BUT that won't always be the case. You do that against BB and the Patriots and you're going to lose. 

This isn't an issue that occurred once in the Jets game. It's an issue since he took over. The Ravens just haven't run the ball nearly enough in many of the games this year and it's causing an issue with being strong out of the gate, but quickly fading out afterward.

I can't remember what the stat was prior to the Dolphins game, but I think it was that they hadn't won a game when they scored first or led at the half and that goes largely back to running the ball all of 10 times before garbage time.

The Ravens said when Trestman was fired that they wanted more commitment to the run. They never said they had to pound the ball 40 times or that they wanted to run on every single first down. They just wanted more balance. So far, it seems like they've gotten even less balance.

Again every game has it's own story line. You cant look at the Dolphins game good or bad and make a determination towards the Pats game. Whatever the Ravens uncover as a weakness in that defense during there film study is what they'll game plan to take advantage of. If the Pats can't defend the middle of the field like the Dolphins then this should be the exact same game plan. 

There is a huge difference between commitment to the run and being balanced. The Ravens never said they wanted more balance, fans said that. The Ravens to a man said the offense needed more consistency. They said the offense needs to find ways to stay on the field longer and stick to things that are working. Fans are the ones who continue talk about balance and most talk about it in the run way. Balance isn't a 50/50 split of run vs pass attempts. It's using what works against said defense and being able to mix things up when needed. The Ravens cranked out 100+ yards vs the Dolphins, I don't see the issue.

If the pass game wasn't working and Marty refused to run the ball then that'd be a problem, but that wasn't the case. Other than the Jets game, when the run game just wasn't working at all, what game has Marty abandoned the run? Please don't say the Dallas game because now self respecting OC will continue to call running plays when his team is down 14 in the 4th quarter and his defense showing no signs of stopping the other team. You can't say the Dolphins game because the Ravens clearly had a gameplan to attack and control the clock with the short passing game. 

 

[The Raven]

I'm not worried that bad about the lack of rushes last game. Sometimes, you just take what the defense gives you. We did that and it worked. And still, 16 rushes isn't horrible.

What I am concerned about is the continuing trend of giving up on the run when it works, or giving up before you find success (you always crank out a good one eventually). In general, you need to have balance. You can't get away with a 47 pass game every game. 47-16 isn't a good ratio in most games. It worked this week cause the Dolphins backers are lost in coverage.

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Again every game has it's own story line. You cant look at the Dolphins game good or bad and make a determination towards the Pats game. Whatever the Ravens uncover as a weakness in that defense during there film study is what they'll game plan to take advantage of. If the Pats can't defend the middle of the field like the Dolphins then this should be the exact same game plan. 

There is a huge difference between commitment to the run and being balanced. The Ravens never said they wanted more balance, fans said that. The Ravens to a man said the offense needed more consistency. They said the offense needs to find ways to stay on the field longer and stick to things that are working. Fans are the ones who continue talk about balance and most talk about it in the run way. Balance isn't a 50/50 split of run vs pass attempts. It's using what works against said defense and being able to mix things up when needed. The Ravens cranked out 100+ yards vs the Dolphins, I don't see the issue.

If the pass game wasn't working and Marty refused to run the ball then that'd be a problem, but that wasn't the case. Other than the Jets game, when the run game just wasn't working at all, what game has Marty abandoned the run? Please don't say the Dallas game because now self respecting OC will continue to call running plays when his team is down 14 in the 4th quarter and his defense showing no signs of stopping the other team. You can't say the Dolphins game because the Ravens clearly had a gameplan to attack and control the clock with the short passing game. 

This is a pretty weak cop out excuse. There's really never an excuse for abandoning what works in a game. 

The issue here is that BB is probably the greatest defensive mind of all time, so if you just go out there throwing the ball 37 times in the first half, you're going to have lots of issues.

No, when Trestman was fired, Harbaugh pointed to the absurd amount of passes that were being thrown and the ineffective nature of the passing game as a reason for him being fired. One can read between the lines and see he'd like more runs to be called. 

The Cowboys game is actually a perfect example because the Ravens were actually tied at the half 10-10. Do you know how many times they ran the ball, not including a Flacco scramble? 17. Know how many came in the first half? 13. You're telling me that the team had a reason to completely go away from the run when they're tied at halftime...? That makes even more sense when you consider both backs were consistently gashing the Cowboys defense for large amounts of yardage. This isn't like they were gaining one or two yards per run. No, they were chunking off six or seven yards a run. There's the Pittsburgh game where he called all of seven second half runs, including two after the Ravens went up 21-0.

And it's not just about the rushing numbers. It's that the Ravens will have very long stretches where they will not run the ball and then they'll come out of no where and run it like six times on a drive. It's so sporadic. They either run the ball heavily or completely avoid it. 

No one is saying that the run game should be a 50/50 balance, but it should really be closer to like 60/40, 65/35, not 81/19 like it was in the Dolphins game. By the way, the Ravens have neither a commitment to the run (again, fewest first half rushes in the entire NFL) or a balance of run to pass.

Again, it worked against the Dolphins, but if you go into the playoffs and try that against the Chiefs, the Patriots, or the Broncos (seven runs to 37 passes in a half), you're going to get Flacco absolutely killed and it's just going to be an extremely long day. 

I don't really care about the final numbers a ton because as I said above, the balance and mix between running and passing is so off. The Ravens play calling is just all over the place and it's going to be an issue if they make it to the playoffs and are playing against better defenses in cold weather when that ball becomes more difficult to throw and catch.

And next time, please don't sit here and act like people have no idea what they're talking about if they don't think the lack of running is a problem. It is an issue, in my opinion, and I have watched every single game.

Edited December 6, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[Ravensfan23]

50 minutes ago, The Raven said:

I'm not worried that bad about the lack of rushes last game. Sometimes, you just take what the defense gives you. We did that and it worked. And still, 16 rushes isn't horrible.

What I am concerned about is the continuing trend of giving up on the run when it works, or giving up before you find success (you always crank out a good one eventually). In general, you need to have balance. You can't get away with a 47 pass game every game. 47-16 isn't a good ratio in most games. It worked this week cause the Dolphins backers are lost in coverage.

I agree 100% and i'm sure Marty, Joe, Harbs and everyone else involved with the offense will say the same. But other than the Jets game, when have the Ravens not had a pretty balanced pass:run ratio? Also what game under Marty has the run game worked and the Ravens gave up on it or stopped running before finding success? As been mentioned before it's hard to say they gave up on the run game in Dallas because of the circumstances. 

I think fans just have to wrap their minds around the concept that the Ravens offense is a pass first offense with a solid running game. You're not gonna pound the rock 25-30 times a game in hopes of wearing a defense down consistently. If you do run that much it's because you've found some success but it's not a Dallas type offense where running the back is top priority. The Ravens are gonna put the ball in Flacco's hands and they'd be smart to build a oline and weapons around him that will allow success. 

I don't want Joe throwing the ball 45+ times through 3 quarters lol, but I don't think Marty has abandoned the run at all during this time. The only issue I had was not keeping his foot on the gas peddle and that wasn't the case this game. 

[The Raven]

31 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I agree 100% and i'm sure Marty, Joe, Harbs and everyone else involved with the offense will say the same. But other than the Jets game, when have the Ravens not had a pretty balanced pass:run ratio? Also what game under Marty has the run game worked and the Ravens gave up on it or stopped running before finding success? As been mentioned before it's hard to say they gave up on the run game in Dallas because of the circumstances. 

I think fans just have to wrap their minds around the concept that the Ravens offense is a pass first offense with a solid running game. You're not gonna pound the rock 25-30 times a game in hopes of wearing a defense down consistently. If you do run that much it's because you've found some success but it's not a Dallas type offense where running the back is top priority. The Ravens are gonna put the ball in Flacco's hands and they'd be smart to build a oline and weapons around him that will allow success. 

I don't want Joe throwing the ball 45+ times through 3 quarters lol, but I don't think Marty has abandoned the run at all during this time. The only issue I had was not keeping his foot on the gas peddle and that wasn't the case this game. 

As much as i love pounding the rock, I've always been a proponent of doing what works and taking what the defense gives you. There's no sense in running the ball just because you want to be tougher or whatever cliche crap the smashmouth fans believe these days. 

[Ravensfan23]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

This is a pretty weak cop out excuse. There's really never an excuse for abandoning what works in a game. 

The issue here is that BB is probably the greatest defensive mind of all time, so if you just go out there throwing the ball 37 times in the first half, you're going to have lots of issues.

No, when Trestman was fired, Harbaugh pointed to the absurd amount of passes that were being thrown and the ineffective nature of the passing game as a reason for him being fired. One can read between the lines and see he'd like more runs to be called. 

The Cowboys game is actually a perfect example because the Ravens were actually tied at the half 10-10. Do you know how many times they ran the ball, not including a Flacco scramble? 17. Know how many came in the first half? 13. You're telling me that the team had a reason to completely go away from the run when they're tied at halftime...? That makes even more sense when you consider both backs were consistently gashing the Cowboys defense for large amounts of yardage. This isn't like they were gaining one or two yards per run. No, they were chunking off six or seven yards a run. There's the Pittsburgh game where he called all of seven second half runs, including two after the Ravens went up 21-0.

And it's not just about the rushing numbers. It's that the Ravens will have very long stretches where they will not run the ball and then they'll come out of no where and run it like six times on a drive. It's so sporadic. They either run the ball heavily or completely avoid it. 

No one is saying that the run game should be a 50/50 balance, but it should really be closer to like 60/40, 65/35, not 81/19 like it was in the Dolphins game. 

Again, it worked against the Dolphins, but if you go into the playoffs and try that against the Chiefs, the Patriots, or the Broncos (seven runs to 37 passes in a half), you're going to get Flacco absolutely killed and it's just going to be an extremely long day. 

I don't really care about the final numbers a ton because as I said above, the balance and mix between running and passing is so off. The Ravens play calling is just all over the place and it's going to be an issue if they make it to the playoffs and are playing against better defenses in cold weather when that ball becomes more difficult to throw and catch.

And next time, please don't sit here and act like people have no idea what they're talking about if they don't think the lack of running is a problem. It is an issue, in my opinion, and I have watched every single game.

When did I say you don't know what you're talking about. You gave your opinion and I gave my. Isn't that what we're here for?

Ok great let's use the Cowboys game. I've done this once before but since I didn't get a answer i guess we can do it again. 

Here's every offensive snap the Ravens had between the start of the 3rd quarter tied 10-10 and entering the 4th quarter down 24-10. Just show me where you would have run the ball and done things differently then Marty did. I'll honestly change my opinion on the matter if you show me somewhere to run the ball that would have given the Ravens a competitive edge. 

3rd Quarter First Drive score: 10-10

1-10 ball at 25: Flacco to SSS 22yds. Could have run the ball here but how can you knock a 22 yard gain?

1-10 ball at 47: West run for 0yd- Here's a first down run that got the offense behind the sticks.

2-10 ball at 47: Flacco playaction incomplete to Wallace- Just had a run of no gain, are you running the ball here? But the running game was used well to suck the LBs up and get Wallace space. Pitta missed a block

3-10 ball at 47: Flacco incomplete to Wallace- No way you run the ball here

3rd Quarter Second Drive score: 17-10

1-10 ball at 25: Flacco playaction to SSS 5yds- Could have run the ball here, but does that put us in any better position?

2-5 ball at 30: Flacco scrambles for 6yds- Could have run here as well but again, where's the advantage?

1-10 ball at 36: Dixon run 9yds. 15yd penalty on Zuttah- Here's a successful run negated by a penalty. 

2-16 ball at 30: Flacco to Wallace 11yds-Are you running the ball here?

3-5 ball at 41: Flacco to Wallace 2yds- Are you running the ball on 3rd and 5?

That's a total of 9 plays between the start of the 3rd quarter with the score 10-10 and the Ravens getting the ball back down 14 with 11:30 left in the 4th quarter. So where are you running the ball and how would it had improve the chances of the offense moving?

Now you can read between the lines all you want with Harbs, or you can go based off exactly what was said. Everything isn't coach speak that you need to read between the lines to figure out. Harbs was straight forward in his press conference about firing Trestman, why the need to read between the lines? At that point in the season the offense wasn't working and Harbs had already had thoughts of firing Marc so his leash was extremely short.  

 

[Ravensfan23]

41 minutes ago, The Raven said:

As much as i love pounding the rock, I've always been a proponent of doing what works and taking what the defense gives you. There's no sense in running the ball just because you want to be tougher or whatever cliche crap the smashmouth fans believe these days. 

Couldn't have said it any better. Do what works in each game. This game is going to be different than the next game. I love to see the running game going but to what extent? If it's a game like the Redskins game where the running game was killing it, but you throw the ball 50 times with a passing game that is clearly not working than it's a problem lol. But not in this game and this game won't have much impact on the Pats game other than putting more on film for them to study and maybe giving the offense some much needed confidence. 

[Tank 92]

At the risk of sounding like Yogi Berra, you need to be able to run the ball when you need to run the ball. If we can't do that then there's a problem, but you don't run just to run. The idea that there needs to be a quota met, or a specific ratio of run/pass every game is wrong. Sounds like Brad Jackson is up in here.  lol

 

 

[Ravensfan23]

2 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

At the risk of sounding like Yogi Berra, you need to be able to run the ball when you need to run the ball. If we can't do that then there's a problem, but you don't run just to run. The idea that there needs to be a quota met, or a specific ratio of run/pass every game is wrong. Sounds like Brad Jackson is up in here.  lol

 

 

Exactly. funny thing is the Ravens have rushed for 100yds in 5 of 7 games under Marty, with the Steelers and Jets games being the lone exception and a 58yd run was called back in the Jets game. That's not league leading or dominant by any fashion but if you can rush for 100+ yards in any game without your QB playing a major factor that means you're doing a great job up front. 

That whole run:pass ratio thing is deep rooted from the days when the defense was dominant and could consistently hold offenses to 10-16 points. The Ravens had offenses that really couldn't overcome turnovers or any mistake. Although the offense has looked that way at times this year, that's no longer the case. There is no need to have the passing game on a pitch count in fear of the balance being thrown off. Stick to what's working.

The issue with the Ravens is their knack of hitting a wall in the middle of the game that allows other teams to take the lead and now the offense has to go uptempo and pass more. If they can get over that mid game hump like they did vs Mia, they'll take a lot more double digit leads into the 4th quarter and they'd run more to close the game out instead of needing to pass.

[nextgen_RavensFan]

Why not leave things as they are and let the team form some chemistry and stop the OC merry go round. 

[BmoreBird22]

12 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I'll say the same thing I said when it was mentioned by the broadcast team during the game. Anybody that has a issue with the running game under Marty either isn't watching the games and Just looking at stats or they are just flat out don't understand the game well enough. I think the only game that Marty can be criticized for abandoning the run is maybe the Jets game but the oline couldn't get any movement in that game at all. 

You pretty much said right here that if anyone has an issue with the running game, they don't know what they're talking about...

[BmoreBird22]

8 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

When did I say you don't know what you're talking about. You gave your opinion and I gave my. Isn't that what we're here for?

Ok great let's use the Cowboys game. I've done this once before but since I didn't get a answer i guess we can do it again. 

Here's every offensive snap the Ravens had between the start of the 3rd quarter tied 10-10 and entering the 4th quarter down 24-10. Just show me where you would have run the ball and done things differently then Marty did. I'll honestly change my opinion on the matter if you show me somewhere to run the ball that would have given the Ravens a competitive edge. 

3rd Quarter First Drive score: 10-10

1-10 ball at 25: Flacco to SSS 22yds. Could have run the ball here but how can you knock a 22 yard gain?

1-10 ball at 47: West run for 0yd- Here's a first down run that got the offense behind the sticks.

2-10 ball at 47: Flacco playaction incomplete to Wallace- Just had a run of no gain, are you running the ball here? But the running game was used well to suck the LBs up and get Wallace space. Pitta missed a block

3-10 ball at 47: Flacco incomplete to Wallace- No way you run the ball here

3rd Quarter Second Drive score: 17-10

1-10 ball at 25: Flacco playaction to SSS 5yds- Could have run the ball here, but does that put us in any better position?

2-5 ball at 30: Flacco scrambles for 6yds- Could have run here as well but again, where's the advantage?

1-10 ball at 36: Dixon run 9yds. 15yd penalty on Zuttah- Here's a successful run negated by a penalty. 

2-16 ball at 30: Flacco to Wallace 11yds-Are you running the ball here?

3-5 ball at 41: Flacco to Wallace 2yds- Are you running the ball on 3rd and 5?

That's a total of 9 plays between the start of the 3rd quarter with the score 10-10 and the Ravens getting the ball back down 14 with 11:30 left in the 4th quarter. So where are you running the ball and how would it had improve the chances of the offense moving?

Now you can read between the lines all you want with Harbs, or you can go based off exactly what was said. Everything isn't coach speak that you need to read between the lines to figure out. Harbs was straight forward in his press conference about firing Trestman, why the need to read between the lines? At that point in the season the offense wasn't working and Harbs had already had thoughts of firing Marc so his leash was extremely short.  

The issue is we're playing with hindsight right now, but yes, even if a run goes for no yards on first down, I'd still consider running on second down because even with a play going for zero yards, the Ravens were absolutely gashing the Cowboys when they got any positive gain.

I don't see any issue with running the ball on 3rd and 10, honestly, if the Cowboys see it as a pass first situation. Catch them off guard and see if you can't make something happen with a running game that had been chunking off very large amounts of yardage.

The second drive shows exactly my point. They got pass-pass-run (with a penalty)- then just go pass-pass. It's so unbalanced and it leads to predictability. And as far as being down by 14 in the fourth with about 12 minutes left, that's a lot of time. Just run the ball. We know the Cowboys are methodically working the ball for eight minute drives and the Ravens are out there with two minute drives. Work some clock off to hopefully give your defense a break and control the clock and tempo of the game. It really played well into the Cowboys when the Ravens go pass happy and get off the field in two minutes because the Cowboys were going to come right back and just go run it down the Ravens throats and punch them in the mouth. I think the Ravens held the ball for all of about 10 minutes in the second half. That's not good for your defense or team as a whole.

The Cowboys fans were baffled as to why the Ravens actually didn't run the ball more. They were so confused because they felt like the run game was their biggest weakness in that game and when the Ravens gave it up, they were glad.

Again, if the run game is getting one or two yards per rush, I could understand, but they weren't. They're out there rushing the ball for literally no less than four yards on plays that gained positive yardage (including those negated by penalty). If you include plays negated by penalty, they got at least nine yards like six or seven times. I don't see any reason to abandon the run at that point, even if you get yourself into a second and long or third and long because the chances are you set up a very manageable third down or very manageable fourth down.

And yes, we have to read between the lines because Harbaugh hardly gave a reason for why Trestman was fired. He said he didn't feel like the offense was shaping up the way he wanted and had envisioned. Well, what did he envision? We can go back and see post game comments from prior weeks about the running game being sparingly used and how he was very unhappy with this. Harbaugh didn't wake up one day and go, "Hey, I'm gonna fire Marc." No, this was build up and if we read prior comments to figure out what the build up was, we see a huge factor was the lack of running the ball.

[Tank 92]

2 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

 

The Cowboys fans were baffled as to why the Ravens actually didn't run the ball more. They were so confused because they felt like the run game was their biggest weakness in that game and when the Ravens gave it up, they were glad.

 

We gave up running the ball because we were chasing the score and had little time to catch up. The Cowboy's long, time eating second half drives  killed us in a lot of ways.

[BmoreBird22]

1 minute ago, Tank 92 said:

We gave up running the ball because we were chasing the score and had little time to catch up. The Cowboy's long, time eating second half drives  killed us in a lot of ways.

I still don't buy this for two reasons. 

1. They were tied at half and weren't chasing scores until the fourth.

2. If you run a no huddle, it's still a pretty quick reset to get back to the line of scrimmage after a running play and with ~13 minutes left, you don't have to try to go for 30 yard plays every time.

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I still don't buy this for two reasons. 

1. They were tied at half and weren't chasing scores until the fourth.

2. If you run a no huddle, it's still a pretty quick reset to get back to the line of scrimmage after a running play and with ~13 minutes left, you don't have to try to go for 30 yard plays every time.

Really gotta go back and look at the 2nd half drives though...

Drive 1 (tied game): Complete a 22 yard pass on 1st down, run the ball for no gain on the next play. So now you're at 2nd and 10. I suppose you can run the ball on 2nd and 10, but realistically, if you're not gaining anything on 1st down via the run, most teams are throwing there. Two incompletions and we punt.

Drive 2 (down 7): A Flacco pass and a Flacco scramble give us 11 yards and a first down. On the next play, we get a 9 yard run from Dixon, offset by a 15 yard penalty on Zuttah post-play. So we now have 2nd and 16... basically killing our ability to run the ball. Two plays later we punt.

By the time we get the ball back, we're down 14 points with 11:30 left in the game. 

So basically we had mild success throwing the ball on those drives (got a couple 1st downs), and we had two running plays that resulted in 2nd and 10 and 2nd and 16 (because of a penalty). Not exactly good downs to run on.

From where I'm sitting, you can basically argue that we could have had maybe 1-2 more running plays in the 2nd half. Other than that, I don't see where the ability to run the ball was. First half we had 13 run plays to 16 pass plays, so pretty balanced.

[BmoreBird22]

15 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Really gotta go back and look at the 2nd half drives though...

Drive 1 (tied game): Complete a 22 yard pass on 1st down, run the ball for no gain on the next play. So now you're at 2nd and 10. I suppose you can run the ball on 2nd and 10, but realistically, if you're not gaining anything on 1st down via the run, most teams are throwing there. Two incompletions and we punt.

Drive 2 (down 7): A Flacco pass and a Flacco scramble give us 11 yards and a first down. On the next play, we get a 9 yard run from Dixon, offset by a 15 yard penalty on Zuttah post-play. So we now have 2nd and 16... basically killing our ability to run the ball. Two plays later we punt.

By the time we get the ball back, we're down 14 points with 11:30 left in the game. 

So basically we had mild success throwing the ball on those drives (got a couple 1st downs), and we had two running plays that resulted in 2nd and 10 and 2nd and 16 (because of a penalty). Not exactly good downs to run on.

From where I'm sitting, you can basically argue that we could have had maybe 1-2 more running plays in the 2nd half. Other than that, I don't see where the ability to run the ball was. First half we had 13 run plays to 16 pass plays, so pretty balanced.

Like I said before, when the Ravens got a gain on a running play (including those offset by penalty), they never got less than four yards. 

Also, consider that the majority of positive runs (if not all) were off tackle, so if you run off tackle and pick up nine yards, you still have an avenue to get out of bounds and stop the clock.

If the Ravens were getting like 1-2 yards consistently, then I'd understand not running on second and 10 or long, but the thing is that they were ripping off large chunks of yardage consistently that would put them into a positive down and situation.

Plus, like I said earlier, let's imagine you get a six yard gain with about 12 minutes left. If you're in the no huddle, that's a quick reset to get the next play in and it's not like you need 30 yard chunk plays anyway. It's a quick reset and you just put yourself into a manageable second or third down to pick up a third down and continue the drive.

[Ravensfan23]

3 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

You pretty much said right here that if anyone has an issue with the running game, they don't know what they're talking about...

There you go reading between the lines again. What I said was isn't watching the game, just looking at stats or doesn't know the game well enough. that's 3 different category to choose from and you picked the one that sounded closest to you don't know what you're talking about. OK

Again the Cowboys game is your preference to run the ball but it wouldn't have given the offense an edge. You're not showing me where the running game was "abandoned". The running game is more than just attempts, hence the not just looking at stats comment. Out of those 9 plays in the 3rd quarter 6 were run Influenced between actual runs and play actions. Where is the abandonment of the run? Or are you just not happy with the amount of attempts and overall poor performance of the offense? 

Abandoning the run was in the Redskins game. That's what that looks like. You said he isn't running the ball just as much as Trestman wasn't, well it's just not true. Under Trestman the Ravens ran the ball 25+ times in 1 game. Under Marty they've found a way to get 25 attempts in 6 of 7 games, with only the Jets game as the exception. Again where's the abandonment? Or is it just that you feel the running game could be so much more if they just got more touches? That's cool and I'd agree but Marty hasn't abandoned the run at all.

 

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Like I said before, when the Ravens got a gain on a running play (including those offset by penalty), they never got less than four yards. 

Also, consider that the majority of positive runs (if not all) were off tackle, so if you run off tackle and pick up nine yards, you still have an avenue to get out of bounds and stop the clock.

If the Ravens were getting like 1-2 yards consistently, then I'd understand not running on second and 10 or long, but the thing is that they were ripping off large chunks of yardage consistently that would put them into a positive down and situation.

Plus, like I said earlier, let's imagine you get a six yard gain with about 12 minutes left. If you're in the no huddle, that's a quick reset to get the next play in and it's not like you need 30 yard chunk plays anyway. It's a quick reset and you just put yourself into a manageable second or third down to pick up a third down and continue the drive.

Don't necessarily disagree, but I think you're assuming that we are just going to break off 6 yard runs consistently. FWIW, we were averaging 7.7 YPA in the passing game that game (a full yard higher than our average for the year), and averaged almost 12 yards per completion, so even at a 6 YPC average, we're still better off throwing in those situations if we want to move the ball quicker. 

Plus, a ton of our rushing output occurred on the 1st half TD drive where we gashed them (4 carries for 58 yards). The next three drives in the 1st half, we had 7 carries for 13 yards, so basically 2 YPC. Longest run was for 6 yards, and we had 3 runs for negative yardage or no gain.

[hereweare]

4 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Don't necessarily disagree, but I think you're assuming that we are just going to break off 6 yard runs consistently. FWIW, we were averaging 7.7 YPA in the passing game that game (a full yard higher than our average for the year), and averaged almost 12 yards per completion, so even at a 6 YPC average, we're still better off throwing in those situations if we want to move the ball quicker. 

Plus, a ton of our rushing output occurred on the 1st half TD drive where we gashed them (4 carries for 58 yards). The next three drives in the 1st half, we had 7 carries for 13 yards, so basically 2 YPC. Longest run was for 6 yards, and we had 3 runs for negative yardage or no gain.

Just to chime in here.. Dallas game I agree not much wiggle room to run considering circumstances..MIA game, Flacco was shredding them so why stop until he struggles..and he didn't.
One thing I liked about Caldwell was he didn't care about the ground game's success. He was going to pound the rock 25 times a game and not stray away from it. That helped Boldin (when in slot) and Pitta get behind LBs. 
With Kubiak, running the ball was successful so it wasn't even a discussion lol

[rmcjacket23]

13 minutes ago, hereweare said:

Just to chime in here.. Dallas game I agree not much wiggle room to run considering circumstances..MIA game, Flacco was shredding them so why stop until he struggles..and he didn't.
One thing I liked about Caldwell was he didn't care about the ground game's success. He was going to pound the rock 25 times a game and not stray away from it. That helped Boldin (when in slot) and Pitta get behind LBs. 
With Kubiak, running the ball was successful so it wasn't even a discussion lol

Everything is situational and game plan dependent. Don't see a lot more opportunities to run the ball in the Dallas game, and didn't see a reason to in the Miami game. Even the Jets game I didn't really see the point, because we're not good enough to run against that front.

Other games? Sure. Redskins game there was zero excuse. Other games earlier in the season were similar, but that's mostly on Trestman.

I don't really see too much issue with Marty not running the ball at this point. Again, MAYBE he trades 2-3 passes for rushing attempts throughout the course of a game, but I'm not going to get all worked up about that. 

[Ravensfan23]

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Don't necessarily disagree, but I think you're assuming that we are just going to break off 6 yard runs consistently. FWIW, we were averaging 7.7 YPA in the passing game that game (a full yard higher than our average for the year), and averaged almost 12 yards per completion, so even at a 6 YPC average, we're still better off throwing in those situations if we want to move the ball quicker. 

Plus, a ton of our rushing output occurred on the 1st half TD drive where we gashed them (4 carries for 58 yards). The next three drives in the 1st half, we had 7 carries for 13 yards, so basically 2 YPC. Longest run was for 6 yards, and we had 3 runs for negative yardage or no gain.

This is where being able to actually go back to watch the games without being so emotionally tied up into the results helps. I truly feel there is a rhythm to play calling and judging the different swings of the game is very important. Even though the Ravens got some big yardage on the 3 run plays you highlighted, they we're heavily influenced by the passing game. 

On those 3 runs the Ravens lined up in a 3WR I-formation backfield. The Cowboys choose to defend it with a Nickle defense with a light front. So there was only 6 defenders in the box and because the Ravens had a FB on the field instead of a TE, there was a huge mismatch in the running game. So with 6 blockers on 6 defenders, the RB just had to beat the Safety on each play. 

The Cowboys clearly saw this was a mistake and rarely matched up that way again. During the 3rd quarter when Marty was accused of abandoning the run, the Cowboys run blitz and kept safeties over the top to take away the deep ball. So Marty used play action to take advantage of the potential space in the middle of the field. The Ravens just didn't execute well enough.

[RaineV1]

Personally, I don't mind the offense not being that balanced as long as what they're doing is working. If the defense has a weakness to something or a  certain WR/TE/RB is on a hot streak, then by all means keep doing the same thing. It always frustrates me to see a team go away from what's working very well in that game (running or passing) just for the sake of trying to be balanced.

[BmoreBird22]

2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Don't necessarily disagree, but I think you're assuming that we are just going to break off 6 yard runs consistently. FWIW, we were averaging 7.7 YPA in the passing game that game (a full yard higher than our average for the year), and averaged almost 12 yards per completion, so even at a 6 YPC average, we're still better off throwing in those situations if we want to move the ball quicker. 

Plus, a ton of our rushing output occurred on the 1st half TD drive where we gashed them (4 carries for 58 yards). The next three drives in the 1st half, we had 7 carries for 13 yards, so basically 2 YPC. Longest run was for 6 yards, and we had 3 runs for negative yardage or no gain.

Like I said, if we count the rushes where they were negated by penalty (some of which had no impact on the actual run), they were chunking off some good gains. 

I think one of the biggest changes in that game as far as failed rushes go is that many of the big runs were off tackle and a lot of the poor runs were right up the middle. Dallas has a fairly stout interior with Crawford and Thornton and you just had Yanda coming off a shoulder injury to play a new spot (hard to believe he's fully healthy) and you've got Zuttah who historically struggles with the bigger defensive tackles because he's not very big himself. I think had they kept running off tackle that they would have been still doing some damage, but that's just an opinion.

As far as the pass game goes, I'd like to see the difference between first half and second half numbers. Flacco was getting some very large gains in the second half off of YAC, but it was a generally conservative passing game. I think part of that had to do with the Cowboys allowing the underneath and just running down the clock that way, much like the Ravens did against the Steelers. Again, just an opinion.

[rmcjacket23]

3 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Like I said, if we count the rushes where they were negated by penalty (some of which had no impact on the actual run), they were chunking off some good gains. 

I think one of the biggest changes in that game as far as failed rushes go is that many of the big runs were off tackle and a lot of the poor runs were right up the middle. Dallas has a fairly stout interior with Crawford and Thornton and you just had Yanda coming off a shoulder injury to play a new spot (hard to believe he's fully healthy) and you've got Zuttah who historically struggles with the bigger defensive tackles because he's not very big himself. I think had they kept running off tackle that they would have been still doing some damage, but that's just an opinion.

As far as the pass game goes, I'd like to see the difference between first half and second half numbers. Flacco was getting some very large gains in the second half off of YAC, but it was a generally conservative passing game. I think part of that had to do with the Cowboys allowing the underneath and just running down the clock that way, much like the Ravens did against the Steelers. Again, just an opinion.

1st half: 10/15, 113 yards. So 7.5 YPA, 11.3 YPC

2nd half: 13/20, 156 yards. So 7.8 YPA, 12.0 YPC

Relatively no difference.

In terms of size of completions:

6 first half completions of > 10 yards,  7 second half completions of > 10 yards. The TD drive in the 2nd half there were 3 completions of 17, 18 and 22 yards. Other than that, no noticeable difference.

[BmoreBird22]

2 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

There you go reading between the lines again. What I said was isn't watching the game, just looking at stats or doesn't know the game well enough. that's 3 different category to choose from and you picked the one that sounded closest to you don't know what you're talking about. OK

Again the Cowboys game is your preference to run the ball but it wouldn't have given the offense an edge. You're not showing me where the running game was "abandoned". The running game is more than just attempts, hence the not just looking at stats comment. Out of those 9 plays in the 3rd quarter 6 were run Influenced between actual runs and play actions. Where is the abandonment of the run? Or are you just not happy with the amount of attempts and overall poor performance of the offense? 

Abandoning the run was in the Redskins game. That's what that looks like. You said he isn't running the ball just as much as Trestman wasn't, well it's just not true. Under Trestman the Ravens ran the ball 25+ times in 1 game. Under Marty they've found a way to get 25 attempts in 6 of 7 games, with only the Jets game as the exception. Again where's the abandonment? Or is it just that you feel the running game could be so much more if they just got more touches? That's cool and I'd agree but Marty hasn't abandoned the run at all.

 

Any of those are going to lead to the same conclusion... 1. You just looked at the box score. I think that's pretty self explanatory since everyone here knows the dangers of box score scouting. 2. You didn't watch. Well, clearly you wouldn't know what you're talking about if you didn't watch. 3. You don't know the game. Again, pretty self explanatory right there. If you don't want it to sound that way, there are plenty of other ways to phrase it, such as, "I disagree that Marty abandoned the run because of how games played out." Anyway...

Yes, I am pretty unhappy with the amount of runs, but it goes further than that. 

I don't really care about the final numbers because, much like in the Dolphins game, final numbers can be misleading. The Ravens finished with about a 2/1 pass to run ratio in the Dolphins game, but were at a 4/1 at one point before they tried milking down the clock.

Also, it's the situational play calling. The Ravens go up by 21 on the Steelers and rush a grand total of two times. I think the two drives following totaled about three minutes. If you just run the ball six times and don't pass once, you can get six minutes by simply taking the clock all the way down. Instead, you've got Flacco throwing incompletions and stopping the clock and forcing the defense to be the scapegoat.

But again, it goes beyond that for me. It's the play calling where he'll run like seven times on a single drive, but then go two or three drives and only run three times total. We get this nice number of 10 runs, but it was heavily influenced by one single drive. It's the abandonment within the game itself where he'll have these long stretches of just pass-pass-pass.

[BmoreBird22]

3 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1st half: 10/15, 113 yards. So 7.5 YPA, 11.3 YPC

2nd half: 13/20, 156 yards. So 7.8 YPA, 12.0 YPC

Relatively no difference.

In terms of size of completions:

6 first half completions of > 10 yards,  7 second half completions of > 10 yards. The TD drive in the 2nd half there were 3 completions of 17, 18 and 22 yards. Other than that, no noticeable difference.

When you put down completions of less than 10 yards, are you marking where they were caught or amount of plays that resulted in less than 10 yards?

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

When you put down completions of less than 10 yards, are you marking where they were caught or amount of plays that resulted in less than 10 yards?

No just total play outcome. I'm not going to go back and watch film to see what YAC was for individual segments, but I'll see if I can find a resource online that has it.

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

No just total play outcome. I'm not going to go back and watch film to see what YAC was for individual segments, but I'll see if I can find a resource online that has it.

Just felt like a lot more were little short plays that went long because of YAC. Could be entirely wrong, though. However, that is pretty much what the Ravens did with the Steelers when the offense couldn't get going.