Candidates to be the next OC

[frozen joe flacco fan]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 7:50 AM, BmoreBird22 said:

I actually felt really impressed today that Marty totally recognized that Joe was generally off his game and turned to the backs more than he had previously in the season. I think the run to pass was 23:30 or something around there. That doesn't even include the swing passes to the backs that are similar to a run play for me.

But yeah, it took nine games to finally really utilize the backs after Joe and Harbaugh had been calling for it for so long. That doesn't sit well with me. And I feel like running the ball more was dictated by the rain more than the actual desire to run based on history, but I will still feel happy with yesterday.

And maybe it's just the need to have a full offseason to get some more of "his guys" in here, but I can't really buy the whole idea that he's working with someone else's playbook or the idea that he hasn't learned the personnel. Every playbook will include similar or the exact same plays and route concepts. He had a full offseason to see the players in camp. 

Here's to hoping that if he does say, he encourages the Ravens to sign some good interior offensive lineman and gets the running game back on track.

If that were the case, why did he call a pass play on 1st down with six minutes to play. If Joe audibled to a pass play, that would explain it but that's not what happened. If Marty recognized that Joe was generally off his game, wouldn't he let Dixon and West try to run the ball and eat up some clock? Remember, two of the O-linemen who have just been selected to play in the Pro Bowl are Yanda and Osemele. Let's face it. Our current O-line is not as good on run-blocking or pass-blocking as the O-line Kubiak had to work with. Assuming your first statement is true, then I have no recourse than to agree with Coach Harbaugh that it was the "All-time Worst Call" and I can't see Marty returning next year for an encore performance unless we go deep into the playoffs. I happen to think the play call made by Pete Carroll's offensive staff was the worst ever but this one rates right up there. Finally, it speaks volumes that Joe Flacco is willing to stand up and take the pressure from his diva wide receivers and call for more running plays. Or do you think he's sayin that jest because he lacks confidence in himself? Sorry but I don't think that's the case. Stay tuned 'cause I think the saga of the revolving door for OCs is about to continue for another cycle. While his detractors are quick to complain about Joe's performance after 9 years, how many OCs have we had during that span of time?

[hn68wb4]

Honestly, I really just don't want another recycled former head coach, take a chance on a new young mind working his way up the football ranks. We've been using recycled HCs since Flacco has been here and Kubiak is the only one that's really worked out, Caldwell was good for the playoff run but 2013 was bad, granted we lost a ton of players going into that season, I don't even need to go over Cameron, Trestman, and Morhinweg (for the most part) you guys are well aware of their struggles. I realize it's somewhat more of a gamble going with a mostly unproven guy but the guys we've been hiring just aren't working and getting a one year loan on a Kubiak doesn't help much either as far as continuity is concerned.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

17 minutes ago, hn68wb4 said:

Honestly, I really just don't want another recycled former head coach, take a chance on a new young mind working his way up the football ranks. We've been using recycled HCs since Flacco has been here and Kubiak is the only one that's really worked out, Caldwell was good for the playoff run but 2013 was bad, granted we lost a ton of players going into that season, I don't even need to go over Cameron, Trestman, and Morhinweg (for the most part) you guys are well aware of their struggles. I realize it's somewhat more of a gamble going with a mostly unproven guy but the guys we've been hiring just aren't working and getting a one year loan on a Kubiak doesn't help much either as far as continuity is concerned.

Amen.

[Deflated Football]

37 minutes ago, hn68wb4 said:

Honestly, I really just don't want another recycled former head coach, take a chance on a new young mind working his way up the football ranks. We've been using recycled HCs since Flacco has been here and Kubiak is the only one that's really worked out, Caldwell was good for the playoff run but 2013 was bad, granted we lost a ton of players going into that season, I don't even need to go over Cameron, Trestman, and Morhinweg (for the most part) you guys are well aware of their struggles. I realize it's somewhat more of a gamble going with a mostly unproven guy but the guys we've been hiring just aren't working and getting a one year loan on a Kubiak doesn't help much either as far as continuity is concerned.

I'm with you. I don't like Marty. I don't like his decisions, but I would take either Hue or McCoy in a heartbeat if either was available. 

[hn68wb4]

15 minutes ago, Deflated Football said:

I'm with you. I don't like Marty. I don't like his decisions, but I would take either Hue or McCoy in a heartbeat if either was available. 

I'm with you on Hue, but there's no way he's getting fired, the FOs decisions going into the season were a clear sign that they were committing to a full rebuild with him as a center piece at HC, I think they'll give him at least 3 years to pull everything together.

I'm not so sure about McCoy, I wouldn't be upset obviously, but I'd still rather go with someone new.

Edited December 22, 2016 by hn68wb4

[Cawtious]

16 hours ago, The Raven said:

He's been a pro for, what, four years? He's had chances. C'mon now.

As someone who once played line, I think Filmstudy's grading is mediocre and his system is misguided. I think it's a wash between Jensen and Ducasse, but Jensen's pass pro was definitely worse.

Realistically three.  Missed his first season including a majority if not all OTA's due to a broken foot.  I didn't say he didn't have chances in the TWO prior seasons.  He did not get WORK at the guard position THIS season during camp.  Now since I've been as clear as I can about that;

His pass pro needs more work.  What helps ANY player is settling into a position and not being bounced around back and forth across the line.........and consistent playing time. Just my thoughts, as I think he would develop into a great starter given that consistency.  I like his fire and even our beloved KO gave the guy props when he played beside him. 

[Cawtious]

18 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Why did you only pick the last three games though?  (Relevant to the reason he is playing and Jensen is not at this point.  It shows the difference in three consecutive starts, and that is all Jensen has for relative comparative data i.e., comparing consistency of play with three consecutive starts for both.  Jensen's grades were declining slightly, but significantly better across a three game stretch than Ducasse's. 

Plus, prior to the Eagles game, both of Ducasse's previous two games against Miami and NE was better than Jensen's first game against Oakland, and he also has the highest individual game score between the two (against Cincinnati).  (He came in to play in Oakland with one week's practice time at guard to prepare.  Prior to that he was working at Center. Goes to my belief that he wasn't the plan for being a backup guard.....He was getting most of his work at Center.  The technique and spacing is different between the two positions.  I think Jensen is much better as a Center in Pass Pro)

I would also point out the now notable asterisks with FilmStudy's grades (as noted by Ken himself)... he emphasizes pass blocking significantly more than run blocking, and he notably gives much harsher grading for penalties. I believe he referenced that two penalties pretty much automatically gets you a failing grade, but there might have been a slight modification to that. (Penalties kill drives.  Both were subjected to harsh grading due to them.  I'll note Jensen has only had two this year, I believe.  Sauce for the goose or "the odds are even" in the grading system.  )

I trust PFF slightly more, though I haven't looked at the detailed scores for Ducasse vs Jensen at that point anyway. Granted, they're not playing the same teams either, so its not exactly apples to apples.  ( Filmstudy adjusts scoring based on quality of opponent across from them.  I find PFF doesn't normalize their data, just as you indicated. )

A bit of a moot point at the end, because I don't think either has been particularly good, nor do I think making a switch offers a huge upgrade either.  (Fair enough! )

 

[gtalk12]

my biggest issue with this current offense isn't the run to throw ratio, it's the penalties ESPECIALLY after a decent to nice run....

[BmoreBird22]

19 hours ago, frozen joe flacco fan said:

If that were the case, why did he call a pass play on 1st down with six minutes to play. If Joe audibled to a pass play, that would explain it but that's not what happened. If Marty recognized that Joe was generally off his game, wouldn't he let Dixon and West try to run the ball and eat up some clock? Remember, two of the O-linemen who have just been selected to play in the Pro Bowl are Yanda and Osemele. Let's face it. Our current O-line is not as good on run-blocking or pass-blocking as the O-line Kubiak had to work with. Assuming your first statement is true, then I have no recourse than to agree with Coach Harbaugh that it was the "All-time Worst Call" and I can't see Marty returning next year for an encore performance unless we go deep into the playoffs. 

Like you said, it was the all time worst play call (and like Harbs said). Why didn't he call a run? I don't know; he's not that bright?

I think they wanted to put the Eagles away more than anything and a pass was the easiest way to do that. 

I don't think that was necessarily an indictment against the running game as much as it was just an extremely aggressive call, something Joe has been asking for for much of the season.

And let's be honest here- the play call wasn't actually horrible. Flacco starting down SSS and not recognizing the MLB had not moved was a far bigger issue than the play call. He had Moore outside one on one and Waller was coming open over the middle if he held the ball a second longer. Honestly, SSS was the last person he should have thrown to. Carroll was pretty close in, safety was breaking downhill, and Hicks was right there reading Flacco the entire way.

[gtalk12]

25 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Like you said, it was the all time worst play call (and like Harbs said). Why didn't he call a run? I don't know; he's not that bright?

I think they wanted to put the Eagles away more than anything and a pass was the easiest way to do that. 

I don't think that was necessarily an indictment against the running game as much as it was just an extremely aggressive call, something Joe has been asking for for much of the season.

And let's be honest here- the play call wasn't actually horrible. Flacco starting down SSS and not recognizing the MLB had not moved was a far bigger issue than the play call. He had Moore outside one on one and Waller was coming open over the middle if he held the ball a second longer. Honestly, SSS was the last person he should have thrown to. Carroll was pretty close in, safety was breaking downhill, and Hicks was right there reading Flacco the entire way.

yea that pass was HORRIBLE lol

[ellicottraven]

We need fresh infusion at OC. One that is creative and can work well with Harbaugh and implement an effective and efficient offense both running and passing the ball. He needs to be able to work with Flacco as well but still keep him confined to the designed offense and help limit his mistakes. Hopefully it is a talented offensive mind hidden away on one of the coaching staffs somewhere...

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Honestly, I'd go McCoy. He's good with a running game and made a Tim Tebow offense work, likewise he revived McGahee's career. But I don't think we can get him. It wasn't his fault San Diego failed when San Diego has failed to develop any kind of oline for Rivers and has a piss poor organization in general. It would not surprise me If he got a head coach nod either this season or a year after hiring him as an offensive coordinator. 

 

Remember, Marty interim OC, and quite frankly I'll start fuming at Harbaugh if we keep the guy at OC. But what I think is more likely is an in house promotion from say Thomas Hammock, who's a pretty good RB coach. 

 

I'd be estatic with McCoy but it might be a one season type deal

[jazz1988]

On 12/21/2016 at 7:19 PM, hn68wb4 said:

Honestly, I really just don't want another recycled former head coach, take a chance on a new young mind working his way up the football ranks. We've been using recycled HCs since Flacco has been here and Kubiak is the only one that's really worked out, Caldwell was good for the playoff run but 2013 was bad, granted we lost a ton of players going into that season, I don't even need to go over Cameron, Trestman, and Morhinweg (for the most part) you guys are well aware of their struggles. I realize it's somewhat more of a gamble going with a mostly unproven guy but the guys we've been hiring just aren't working and getting a one year loan on a Kubiak doesn't help much either as far as continuity is concerned.

I'm all for something fresh and new even though I like Marty M so far but i'm not really sure if hiring a unproven guy to be The Ravens offensive coordinator is a good idea.I rather like to see The Ravens bring in guy like Mark Helfrich or Greg Roman as position coaches/ consultants  that can help with the  game planning.

[Dfence4champs2052]

Give us a coaching staff willing to run the ball, make actual in game adjustments, can manage the clock and timeouts, had an actual feel for the game and can motivate when necessary. 

[RaineV1]

22 hours ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

Honestly, I'd go McCoy. He's good with a running game and made a Tim Tebow offense work, likewise he revived McGahee's career. But I don't think we can get him. It wasn't his fault San Diego failed when San Diego has failed to develop any kind of oline for Rivers and has a piss poor organization in general. It would not surprise me If he got a head coach nod either this season or a year after hiring him as an offensive coordinator.

It wouldn't completely surprise me to see McCoy go the same route as Kubiak, one year as an OC and then a head coach again. That said, I'll still gladly take him. With the Charger now losing to even the Browns, I think that team does end up purging its staff.

If McCoy gets a head coaching job right away though, we could possibly get Ken Whisenhunt.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

17 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

It wouldn't completely surprise me to see McCoy go the same route as Kubiak, one year as an OC and then a head coach again. That said, I'll still gladly take him. With the Charger now losing to even the Browns, I think that team does end up purging its staff.

If McCoy gets a head coaching job right away though, we could possibly get Ken Whisenhunt.

I'd like Wisenhunt. He's not a threat to become a HC again in my eyes. And he's a proven OC

[Filmstudy]

Merry Christmas everyone.  

On the topic of Jensen vs. Ducasse, here are their cumulative scoring lines for the season as I graded it:

Ducasse: 382 snaps, 334 blocks, 23 missed, 3.5 penetrations (responsibilities for run for a loss), 5.58 pressures, 4 QH, 1.83 sacks, 45 penalty yards, .70 points per play.  I weighted the adjustments for quality of competition, highlights, etc by snaps and his is .04.  Total .74.  That would be a D at guard for an individual game.  Individual game grades F, B-, A, D, D, F.  

Jensen: 251 snaps, 232 blocks, 14 missed, 1 penetration, 7.5 pressures, 2.17 QH, 1 sack, 15 penalty yards, .73 points per play.  His snap weighted adjustment is .07, which is a function primarily of more highlight blocks per snap and the fact he didn't have a disastrous play like Ducasse (safety vs. NE) to wipe out one game's adjustment.  Total .80.  That would be a C at guard for an individual game.  His individual game grades are F, B, B-, C.

From my perspective, Jensen earned a continued chance at guard and should have been allowed to fail before Ducasse got a chance.  He's imperfect, but Jensen (year 3) has significantly more upside than a 7th-year player like Ducasse.  Jensen also offers more in terms of versatility. 

You can have qualms with my system on at least 3 levels:  

1) The individual play grading is something for which I try to provide as much transparency as is possible, particularly in regards to significant downgrades.  Watch along and come up with your own conclusions with (Q, T) references.

2) The weighting.  That's the relativity of scoring between pass and run, relative charges for penalties, etc.  

3) The biggest point, however, is something we don't discuss much.  Specifically, I treat offensive line grading overwhelmingly as a "reduction from 1 system", like batting average or fielding percentage.  So if you want to know how a player can earn enough "extra credit" to earn their way back to 1.00 after 20 yards of penalties, the answer is simply he can't do that any more than a baseball player can get back to a 1.000 batting average or fielding percentage.  Those opportunities have been permanently squandered.  Unlike most other positions in football, the OLman goes through a visible trial on virtually every play, so those opportunities have more in common with AB in baseball and the lineman must seek to minimize the impact of failure.  This is the major difference between me and PFF.

There really isn't a point in having a discussion about weighting unless we can agree that 3) is the correct approach and have at least made some attempt to go through 1) on a play-by-play basis to understand the methodology (regardless of play-by-play disagreement).  

There are some knowledgable OL people, be they former players, analysts, or observant fans on this site.  I welcome discussion on how the OL should best be graded and would love to find a good live medium for that discussion among interested parties.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Filmstudy

[JoeyFlex5]

also, i would LOVE to see tom herman in baltimore, that would be awesome. pretty sure hes gonna stay in college football and probably go on to be a campus god, but i could see him leading some excellent offenses in the NFL as an OC.

[Ravensfan23]

@rmw10 I moved my post here cause i'd definitely like to get your opinion on the OC moving forward. So here's what you said. 

Quote

It's not the barometer, no, but his season has been much closer to that than what it was today. He's been awful. Not much will change my mind on that matter. I'd be highly disappointed if this team moved forward with him and thought he was the best option. 

In what way because I don't think i follow you. Are we talking play call, situational football, play design, production, adjustments or what?

I think Flacco and the offense has clearly improved under Marty and the numbers show it. Since week 9 of the season when the offense started to get healthy(huge factor) these are Flacco's numbers: 8gms 215/315 68% 39.3att/g 7.0ypa 2,213yds 15TDs 7Ints. Run game: 8gms 24att/g 787yds 98.4ypg 4.0ypc. Great numbers for Flacco, not so much in the run game, however over the last 2 games there has been a stronger emphasis and it's helped. 50att 273yds, 25att/g 136.5ypg 5.46ypc. Overall offensive: 8gms 2,901yds 362.6ypg 5.5yds/p 25ppg 41% 3rd down. Those numbers are either top 10 or on par with offenses like the Steelers and Packers. In fact if those numbers are spread over 16, which i know we can't do, they look almost identical to the offense under Kubes in 2014. 364ypg 5.7yds/p 25.6ppg 41% 3rd down and everybody loved Kubes. 

Am i saying this offense was great or Marty has no flaws, not at all and I know numbers aren't everything. However to say that man has done nothing to warrant even consideration or to say this offense has consistently looked like the Pats game under him? Come on. I have to think that's an emotional outburst to this team not making the playoffs and when the decision is made on the new OC I can promise you emotions won't play a factor in it. The numbers and how well he meshed with his unit will speak much louder. Like I said before, right now I see a offense that just needs some tweaking and if you can find someone better than Marty to tweak, by all means bring him in. But you better be damn sure he will mesh well with players(Trestman's issue) and that he can either get more out of the current offense or install his own with success because this team can't afford another season missing the playoffs. 

Of course I didn't say all that to try and change your mind, just showing how I think there is definitely something to work with going forward with Marty if the Ravens choose to. What would your vision of what the offense should look like moving forward and who do you see out there to bring that vision to life?

[rmw10]

1 hour ago, Ravensfan23 said:

@rmw10 I moved my post here cause i'd definitely like to get your opinion on the OC moving forward. So here's what you said. 

In what way because I don't think i follow you. Are we talking play call, situational football, play design, production, adjustments or what?

I think Flacco and the offense has clearly improved under Marty and the numbers show it. Since week 9 of the season when the offense started to get healthy(huge factor) these are Flacco's numbers: 8gms 215/315 68% 39.3att/g 7.0ypa 2,213yds 15TDs 7Ints. Run game: 8gms 24att/g 787yds 98.4ypg 4.0ypc. Great numbers for Flacco, not so much in the run game, however over the last 2 games there has been a stronger emphasis and it's helped. 50att 273yds, 25att/g 136.5ypg 5.46ypc. Overall offensive: 8gms 2,901yds 362.6ypg 5.5yds/p 25ppg 41% 3rd down. Those numbers are either top 10 or on par with offenses like the Steelers and Packers. In fact if those numbers are spread over 16, which i know we can't do, they look almost identical to the offense under Kubes in 2014. 364ypg 5.7yds/p 25.6ppg 41% 3rd down and everybody loved Kubes. 

Am i saying this offense was great or Marty has no flaws, not at all and I know numbers aren't everything. However to say that man has done nothing to warrant even consideration or to say this offense has consistently looked like the Pats game under him? Come on. I have to think that's an emotional outburst to this team not making the playoffs and when the decision is made on the new OC I can promise you emotions won't play a factor in it. The numbers and how well he meshed with his unit will speak much louder. Like I said before, right now I see a offense that just needs some tweaking and if you can find someone better than Marty to tweak, by all means bring him in. But you better be damn sure he will mesh well with players(Trestman's issue) and that he can either get more out of the current offense or install his own with success because this team can't afford another season missing the playoffs. 

Of course I didn't say all that to try and change your mind, just showing how I think there is definitely something to work with going forward with Marty if the Ravens choose to. What would your vision of what the offense should look like moving forward and who do you see out there to bring that vision to life?

One of my biggest issues with Marty is the check down offense.  Now, some of it is on Flacco for going through his reads far too quickly, but there are a ton of first reads that are a max of 2-3 yards down the field and then that player is expected to keep a drive going.  It's burned us so many times and there's been no change.  Flacco's numbers might look fine in a nutshell, but there's no reason a guy throwing as much as he is a game should be just over 4000 yards.  That's all because of this dink and dunk offense that started with Trestman.  You can make the argument that it is Trestman's playbook and Marty hasn't had too much time to implement his own offense, but there are other plays in his playbook.  I mean, in the game yesterday, on 1st and 20 after the holding penalty, Marty called a designed screen to Steve Smith out of the backfield that went for -2 yards.  Those are the types of plays that have killed this team all year, and there's been no improvement.

Otherwise, Marty has been terrible at situational football.  Even ignore the "all time worst play call," you still have multiple instances of him just making poor decisions.  Going back to the Steve Smith screen from yesterday, we had just come off of Dixon barreling through guys and picking up great yardage run after run.  The penalty hurt and it's no one's fault but Zuttah, but why would Marty not keep the momentum going there?  Run the ball and pick up a decent chuck of yardage.  Instead, he calls a ridiculous screen play that clearly wasn't going to work.  It's just a dumb decision.  That play probably earned a pass because of the fact that is was a good game for him otherwise, but these types of decisions have plagued us all year, whether it be him or Trestman.  His red zone play calling has just been awful, and a lot of that comes down to poor decisions.

You know me well and you know I'll own up to it if I'm wrong, but I'd be shocked if Marty isn't the first one relieved of his duties (assuming Harbaugh sticks) after the season.  I've seen absolutely no reason to believe he should stay.  As I mentioned in the other thread, I think it's a commitment to the status quo and does nothing but hold our team back, or stagnant at best.  Other than the fact that he seems to like to pass 50 times a game, his play calling has been archaic and shows no innovation.  I don't need trick plays.  I just need something that isn't a screen or a 4 yard curl on a more consistent basis.

As far as who I would bring in, I honestly couldn't tell you.  I don't think we need or should go for a Chip Kelly innovator type of guy either, but we need something in between.  The NFL has been changing and we've been behind the curve for awhile now.  It's time to get beyond that curve, and I don't think Marty is the guy to do that.

[donkeyking64]

Would be awesome to bring David Shaw back to the Ravens as an OC...but unfortunately the most logical move for David Shaw when he returns to the league would be as an HC.

Maybe they could lure Mike Munchiak from the Steelers. An o-line guy will almost definitely focus on the run game.

He won't be relieved of his HC duties, but I would take Hue Jackson.

You guys see where this is going? Too many ifs. Everyone that could make sense is in a stage of the coaching carousel where the timing isn't working out for Baltimore.

Pep Hamilton wouldn't be a bad move. I like where your head's at with the in-house guys and I especially like the idea of a Running Backs coach getting promoted to OC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did Norv Turner just peace out completely? I mean, has he not been a competent play-caller wherever he's been. He may be pass happy, but he's at least efficient and effective with his pass plays. Or is that just my inaccurate assessment.

I think Marty is trash. You say he passed too much with Andy Reid, but Andy Reid passed too much when he was calling plays so that's probably more of the same mindset as opposed to Marty's own. And it's not that he passed too much, but when that's what he called, there weren't enough downfield balls.

 

I said something earlier this season about throwing the ball behind the sticks and then someone chimed in with something like 'oh all these people that complain about not throwing the ball to or past the 1st down marker....' ok...but how many times in 1 game do you need to throw the ball to a receiver for him to gain 1 or 2 flipping yards from the LOS? That doesn't make sense. 2 deep pass threats + the most accurate deep ball passer = 0 downfield attempts.

 

[Ravensfan23]

59 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

One of my biggest issues with Marty is the check down offense.  Now, some of it is on Flacco for going through his reads far too quickly, but there are a ton of first reads that are a max of 2-3 yards down the field and then that player is expected to keep a drive going.  It's burned us so many times and there's been no change.  Flacco's numbers might look fine in a nutshell, but there's no reason a guy throwing as much as he is a game should be just over 4000 yards.  That's all because of this dink and dunk offense that started with Trestman.  You can make the argument that it is Trestman's playbook and Marty hasn't had too much time to implement his own offense, but there are other plays in his playbook.  I mean, in the game yesterday, on 1st and 20 after the holding penalty, Marty called a designed screen to Steve Smith out of the backfield that went for -2 yards.  Those are the types of plays that have killed this team all year, and there's been no improvement.

Otherwise, Marty has been terrible at situational football.  Even ignore the "all time worst play call," you still have multiple instances of him just making poor decisions.  Going back to the Steve Smith screen from yesterday, we had just come off of Dixon barreling through guys and picking up great yardage run after run.  The penalty hurt and it's no one's fault but Zuttah, but why would Marty not keep the momentum going there?  Run the ball and pick up a decent chuck of yardage.  Instead, he calls a ridiculous screen play that clearly wasn't going to work.  It's just a dumb decision.  That play probably earned a pass because of the fact that is was a good game for him otherwise, but these types of decisions have plagued us all year, whether it be him or Trestman.  His red zone play calling has just been awful, and a lot of that comes down to poor decisions.

You know me well and you know I'll own up to it if I'm wrong, but I'd be shocked if Marty isn't the first one relieved of his duties (assuming Harbaugh sticks) after the season.  I've seen absolutely no reason to believe he should stay.  As I mentioned in the other thread, I think it's a commitment to the status quo and does nothing but hold our team back, or stagnant at best.  Other than the fact that he seems to like to pass 50 times a game, his play calling has been archaic and shows no innovation.  I don't need trick plays.  I just need something that isn't a screen or a 4 yard curl on a more consistent basis.

As far as who I would bring in, I honestly couldn't tell you.  I don't think we need or should go for a Chip Kelly innovator type of guy either, but we need something in between.  The NFL has been changing and we've been behind the curve for awhile now.  It's time to get beyond that curve, and I don't think Marty is the guy to do that.

I can get with that. There have been times where even I questioned if Marty knows how to truly use the weapons this team has. But is that something that can be rectified by during self scouting during the offseason or does that just mean Marty needs to go? You and I both have had this convo many of times before about players possibly being cut. 

To be honest the Ravens offense over the last 8 games, looks nearly identical to the Atlanta Falcons offense last year, minus a Julio Jones of course. But those guys didn't have a big down field presence or strong running game under Shanahan his first year. Then they took off this year. In fact reports were that Matt Ryan was overwhelmed in that offense and that he wasn't on the same page with Kyle. Now fast forward a year and they might be the most explosive offense in the NFL, mainly because they were able to stay the course. Now that's not to say Marty is capable of taking this offense to those heights but he does have a proven track record and that combined with some of the bright spots this offense has had, I feel Harbs will definitely give him an opportunity to at least interview for the job. 

[donkeyking64]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 3:48 PM, rmcjacket23 said:

At the time he was hired... of course. I don't even think you could make a case he wasn't viewed as such.

His basis of hiring would be the exact same as Payton's...

 

Was he an offensive genius?

Or did he just have All World Talent?

And did his timing of All World Talent work to his favor?

[ALPHA]

What about Shanahan as HC?

Just kidding.

Edited December 26, 2016 by ALPHA

[BmoreBird22]

On 12/25/2016 at 2:20 AM, Filmstudy said:

There really isn't a point in having a discussion about weighting unless we can agree that 3) is the correct approach and have at least made some attempt to go through 1) on a play-by-play basis to understand the methodology (regardless of play-by-play disagreement).  

There are some knowledgable OL people, be they former players, analysts, or observant fans on this site.  I welcome discussion on how the OL should best be graded and would love to find a good live medium for that discussion among interested parties.

I personally do not like the system you employ because I don't think it fairly gives credit for good plays.

Starting at 100 makes a really great block at the point of attack, hits the second level, and then continues to block upfield (one that may spring the back for like a 99 yard touchdown) on the same plane as a run that only goes for four yards if the lineman doesn't get beat and executes his block at the point of attack. I also don't like that a penalty can knock a player down a complete letter grade. I mean, they could execute every single block perfectly and really lead the way for the best offensive performance of the season, but if they get that one holding penalty, they're not getting that A+ they deserve.

That's why I like PFF more, personally, for their grading system. I understand you don't like the idea of having run and pass plays be weighted equally, but you could alter their system by making it a +/- 2 for pass plays and a +/- 1 for running plays. I think PFF docks off like -2 for penalties on the magnitude of holding, but not sure 100%. 

I just would rather give points then start at 100 and knock down from there, personally.

[reed20]

I like some of the things that Marty did for this offense but I feel we can find better. I'd like a run-oriented offensive coordinator. With a good 1-2 punch in Dixon and West, Yanda, and the best fullback in football, there's no reason as to why our run game next season should not be spectacular.

[Edug27]

16 hours ago, rmw10 said:

One of my biggest issues with Marty is the check down offense.  Now, some of it is on Flacco for going through his reads far too quickly, but there are a ton of first reads that are a max of 2-3 yards down the field and then that player is expected to keep a drive going.  It's burned us so many times and there's been no change.  Flacco's numbers might look fine in a nutshell, but there's no reason a guy throwing as much as he is a game should be just over 4000 yards.  That's all because of this dink and dunk offense that started with Trestman.  You can make the argument that it is Trestman's playbook and Marty hasn't had too much time to implement his own offense, but there are other plays in his playbook.  I mean, in the game yesterday, on 1st and 20 after the holding penalty, Marty called a designed screen to Steve Smith out of the backfield that went for -2 yards.  Those are the types of plays that have killed this team all year, and there's been no improvement.

Otherwise, Marty has been terrible at situational football.  Even ignore the "all time worst play call," you still have multiple instances of him just making poor decisions.  Going back to the Steve Smith screen from yesterday, we had just come off of Dixon barreling through guys and picking up great yardage run after run.  The penalty hurt and it's no one's fault but Zuttah, but why would Marty not keep the momentum going there?  Run the ball and pick up a decent chuck of yardage.  Instead, he calls a ridiculous screen play that clearly wasn't going to work.  It's just a dumb decision.  That play probably earned a pass because of the fact that is was a good game for him otherwise, but these types of decisions have plagued us all year, whether it be him or Trestman.  His red zone play calling has just been awful, and a lot of that comes down to poor decisions.

You know me well and you know I'll own up to it if I'm wrong, but I'd be shocked if Marty isn't the first one relieved of his duties (assuming Harbaugh sticks) after the season.  I've seen absolutely no reason to believe he should stay.  As I mentioned in the other thread, I think it's a commitment to the status quo and does nothing but hold our team back, or stagnant at best.  Other than the fact that he seems to like to pass 50 times a game, his play calling has been archaic and shows no innovation.  I don't need trick plays.  I just need something that isn't a screen or a 4 yard curl on a more consistent basis.

As far as who I would bring in, I honestly couldn't tell you.  I don't think we need or should go for a Chip Kelly innovator type of guy either, but we need something in between.  The NFL has been changing and we've been behind the curve for awhile now.  It's time to get beyond that curve, and I don't think Marty is the guy to do that.

At some point you need to put more of this on the players and less on the coaches.

[rmw10]

3 hours ago, Edug27 said:

At some point you need to put more of this on the players and less on the coaches.

If you look at my previous posts over the course of the season, you'll see I've mostly blamed the players and actually stood up for the coaches of most occasions.  When the same coaching issues persist over the course of the season though, you have to start looking in that direction as well.  It's always on the players to make plays, but when the coaching is consistently putting the team in bad spots, that deserves some blame too.

[Cawtious]

On 12/20/2016 at 4:04 PM, rmcjacket23 said:

Mostly because versatility is vital for reserve lineman. Does him no good to focus on one position.

Unless they want him to develop into a startee

[darklight1216]

21 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I can get with that. There have been times where even I questioned if Marty knows how to truly use the weapons this team has. But is that something that can be rectified by during self scouting during the offseason or does that just mean Marty needs to go? You and I both have had this convo many of times before about players possibly being cut. 

To be honest the Ravens offense over the last 8 games, looks nearly identical to the Atlanta Falcons offense last year, minus a Julio Jones of course. But those guys didn't have a big down field presence or strong running game under Shanahan his first year. Then they took off this year. In fact reports were that Matt Ryan was overwhelmed in that offense and that he wasn't on the same page with Kyle. Now fast forward a year and they might be the most explosive offense in the NFL, mainly because they were able to stay the course. Now that's not to say Marty is capable of taking this offense to those heights but he does have a proven track record and that combined with some of the bright spots this offense has had, I feel Harbs will definitely give him an opportunity to at least interview for the job. 

I don't keep up with Atlanta these days so this is an honest question: did they also have a baffling tendancy to aim short of the sticks on every single third down pass?

That would be uncanny.