Candidates to be the next OC

[RavensFanMania]

Although I'd like McCoy or even Whisenhunt as the OC, someone we should consider would be Bill Lazor.  Yes, he got fired in Miami, but feel he could do pretty well with Flacco. 

[D-Rey]

9 hours ago, RaineV1 said:

Consistency doesn't help when the person is consistently doing things badly. Keeping Cam for several seasons didn't make us a better offense. But Kubiak came in later and we changed for the better overnight.

When it comes to potential candidates from the college ranks, I think someone from Iowa, Western Michigan, or Wisconsin would fit the Ravens well.

Not Iowa please, I'm a huge Iowa fan but their offense is never very good. Other than a solid running game. But I know the Kirk Ferentz will never go to the NFL, he's gotten the call before and declined. And the OC for Iowa isn't very good lol.

[K-Dog]

Here is the funny thing about this thread. 

There are those here that would swear that they are better O.C.'s than Marty or Treasman.  There are those here who think those two couldn't play call their way out of a wet paper sack. 

So if that is the case, why is finding a replacement so bloody difficult?

If it were that easy would we not have endless options just ready for the picking?

[PurpleCity5]

6 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I actually felt really impressed today that Marty totally recognized that Joe was generally off his game and turned to the backs more than he had previously in the season. I think the run to pass was 23:30 or something around there. That doesn't even include the swing passes to the backs that are similar to a run play for me.

But yeah, it took nine games to finally really utilize the backs after Joe and Harbaugh had been calling for it for so long. That doesn't sit well with me. And I feel like running the ball more was dictated by the rain more than the actual desire to run based on history, but I will still feel happy with yesterday.

And maybe it's just the need to have a full offseason to get some more of "his guys" in here, but I can't really buy the whole idea that he's working with someone else's playbook or the idea that he hasn't learned the personnel. Every playbook will include similar or the exact same plays and route concepts. He had a full offseason to see the players in camp. 

Here's to hoping that if he does say, he encourages the Ravens to sign some good interior offensive lineman and gets the running game back on track.

At this point, I just wonder what the players think. Week after week Joe has been calling on running the Football, that's just not a good look. I don't know if we're going to keep the running game as a consistent threat to the offense because even in that Eagles game there were times where should've ran the ball and we completely got away from it. 

[Ravensfan23]

8 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I couldn't remember if it was 2014 or 2015. I looked up his coaching gigs and just assumed that the Ravens had passed on him for Trestman because he did get fired after that Browns tenure. 

Either way, I still would have rather had Shanahan than I would have had Kubiak. I guess there was a huge concern over the possibility of a young, up and coming coach in Shanahan leaving to be a HC whereas Kubiak was old, had health issues, and just failed as a HC in Houston. 

I think the threat of being a HC is the reason they didn't take Gase in 2015 over Trestman.

Oh i agree, i wanted Shanny bad. He's way more creative than Kubes and would have maximized all the talent on this offense imo. I think the appeal of Kubiak was that he alone with Mike Shanahan are like the architects of that offense, so why not hire the best. I think the plan was for Kubes to be here for 2-3 years and fully install that offense before moving on. Clearly that didn't work out.  

[jazz1988]

9 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Am I the only one who thinks continuity is overrated?

I'm almost certain I said this, but I don't want continuity for the sake of continuity if it means mediocrity. 

The thing is- almost all plays are going to be in every single playbook. It may not be on the play call sheet every single Sunday, but I don't think there's a single play or route that these skill players on offense haven't seen. 

Also, going back to college, there probably isn't a route these receivers haven't practiced. 

Just to give an example of what I mean, think back to 2012. Jim Caldwell takes over late in the season and uses the exact same playbook Cameron did, but the offense takes off. We saw new routes and plays (the usage of the middle of the field was night and day), but Caldwell took over way too late in the season to install these new plays. So what gives? These plays that were attacking the middle of the field more frequently with Pitta and Boldin had always been there, Cam just didn't call them frequently. Same playbook, vastly different results because the Ravens found a play caller that just knew how to use his players more.

It's the same reason that Joe could go from Cam to Caldwell to Kubiak in a matter of a year and a half, but excel under Kubiak. Kubiak just knew how to use his players. 

I'd be a lot less worried about does this coordinator have a system that works for the players and what do his tendencies look like and a lot more focused on how well he utilizes his players strengths. 

 

When Jim Caldwell was bought in as the quarterback coach he was allowed to  install the sugar huddle and help with The Ravens passing attack.Caldwell also had prior experience and knowledge with The Ravens offensive scheme since The Colts ran it back when Tom Moore was  their offensive coordinator. When he eventually became the offensive coordinator The Raven already had a entire coaching staff (meaning position coaches)on the offensive side with a strong understanding of the offensive scheme that Cam Cameron bought since 2008. I think that played a  important role  with helping Jim Caldwell with game planning  especially since the guy didn't even have any prior playing calling experience at The NFL level .I can't disagree  that Caldwell  and Kubiak used players to their strength but they also had the right supporting cast to get it done. I can't really say Marc Trestman and Marty M have had solid to great supporting cast to support their offensive system.  Most of The Ravens position coaches are young coaches besides Juan Castillo  and the west coast offense in general is still a fresh offensive scheme even through Trestman and Marty M scheme vary .

 

I think Gary Kubiak showed in 2014  how important  and beneficial it is to have position coaches that know the offensive coordinator offensive system . I honestly don't think the offense would have been ran so smoothly if  Kubiak wasn't allowed to bring in his guys. Rick Dennison never been a  quarterback coach ever in his coaching career until he was part of The Ravens coaching staff and he used to play linebacker in The NFl. If somebody told me a former linebacker was coaching Joe Flacco/the quarterback position then I would be some what confused  but Dennison been  apart of what Gary Kubiak been doing for over five years. 

 

[Cawtious]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 1:29 AM, RaineV1 said:

Kubiak's line wasn't that great after the injuries. Urschel and Jensen aren't exactly dominate lineman. Jensen was awful this year, and Urschel hasn't been anything special. Just an emergency C. Also, Hurst started five games that season. They played well as a unit, but the current line per player isn't worse than that line was.

Meh,  I don't think Jensen was awful.  He had one bad game, and according to the grading system used by FilmStudy, he actually was doing fairly well.  Urschel hasn't been too bad, either.  I personally don't see why Castillo thinks Ducasse is a better player than either.  Keep an eye on how he blocks during the run especially.  He impacts players and doesn't stick to them and drive them out of the play.  They often times bounce right off his blocks and make tackles or disrupt the play. 

I think Jensen and Urschel will become stronger game day players if they suit up and get PT consistently.  I don't think it's going to happen, though.

[Rav'n Maniac]

1 hour ago, Cawtious said:

Meh,  I don't think Jensen was awful.  He had one bad game, and according to the grading system used by FilmStudy, he actually was doing fairly well.  Urschel hasn't been too bad, either.  I personally don't see why Castillo thinks Ducasse is a better player than either.  Keep an eye on how he blocks during the run especially.  He impacts players and doesn't stick to them and drive them out of the play.  They often times bounce right off his blocks and make tackles or disrupt the play. 

I think Jensen and Urschel will become stronger game day players if they suit up and get PT consistently.  I don't think it's going to happen, though.

I agree with all said but, at this point i feel if they were to sit Ducasse, they would use Lewis if he can handle the switch. Still, this formation of the line has served us well to this point, outside a few penalties, why mess with it.

[balfan23]

1 hour ago, Cawtious said:

Meh,  I don't think Jensen was awful.  He had one bad game, and according to the grading system used by FilmStudy, he actually was doing fairly well.  Urschel hasn't been too bad, either.  I personally don't see why Castillo thinks Ducasse is a better player than either.  Keep an eye on how he blocks during the run especially.  He impacts players and doesn't stick to them and drive them out of the play.  They often times bounce right off his blocks and make tackles or disrupt the play. 

I think Jensen and Urschel will become stronger game day players if they suit up and get PT consistently.  I don't think it's going to happen, though.

We just don't see what these guys are looking like in the practices. We always have to realize that we see about 5% of what these guys do (and then we only see what is painfully obvious), while the staff sees everything. I was surprised from the get-go that Jensen was not our starting LG and that Lewis had taken his place. I have to think if Jensen was truly our best option, he'd be out there. 

[balfan23]

Well, I think we'd love to give the position to Marty ... but I just don't know if he's earning it. He still has a season to finish out, but if we see more of the same, then I have to think we'll be looking for other options. The trick is ... finding a better option. I also do think we are going to be reluctant to pick some young up and comer ... because that feels like a no-win, one year option. If the guy stinks, you have to fire him ... if he does well, he will almost certainly be an HC immediately after. We really need to find a long-term solution and stop the OC carousel. 

[Cawtious]

13 minutes ago, balfan23 said:

We just don't see what these guys are looking like in the practices. We always have to realize that we see about 5% of what these guys do (and then we only see what is painfully obvious), while the staff sees everything. I was surprised from the get-go that Jensen was not our starting LG and that Lewis had taken his place. I have to think if Jensen was truly our best option, he'd be out there. 

Jensen was pushed into Center most of camp. Didn't play many snaps at the G position early on this year.  Notwithstanding all of that, his GRADES compared to Ducasse are pretty much glaringly better.  I disagree that he's not a better option than Ducasse.  But it is what it is.

He's been on a positional Merry-go-Round since last year.  I've heard they have him practicing at T now and not giving him reps at C or G.  Doesn't make a lot of sense to me if that is what is going on.  March 14th will answer that question.

[Cawtious]

37 minutes ago, Rav'n Maniac said:

...Still, this formation of the line has served us well to this point, outside a few penalties, why mess with it.

I don't think it has served very well, but that's just me! 

[ellicottraven]

Flacco is 1st in pass attempts in the league, 5th in passing yards thrown, 25 in QBR. Says it all for our season. Run game is talented and strong, but yet we rely on Joe throwing the ball. I don't know if it is the coaching, Joe's pressure on them to let him throw or Marty's ineptness at being OC. Any way you cut it, we look doomed.

[rmcjacket23]

4 hours ago, Cawtious said:

Meh,  I don't think Jensen was awful.  He had one bad game, and according to the grading system used by FilmStudy, he actually was doing fairly well.  Urschel hasn't been too bad, either.  I personally don't see why Castillo thinks Ducasse is a better player than either.  Keep an eye on how he blocks during the run especially.  He impacts players and doesn't stick to them and drive them out of the play.  They often times bounce right off his blocks and make tackles or disrupt the play. 

I think Jensen and Urschel will become stronger game day players if they suit up and get PT consistently.  I don't think it's going to happen, though.

Well its not like they haven't had opportunities to do so. You had Yanda and Zuttah missing decent time in the offseason because of previous injuries, and you had a rookie in Lewis competing at Guard. So two interior positions on the Oline were essentially up for grabs, and neither of these guys won either of them.

That tells me something. 

 

[Cawtious]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well its not like they haven't had opportunities to do so. You had Yanda and Zuttah missing decent time in the offseason because of previous injuries, and you had a rookie in Lewis competing at Guard. So two interior positions on the Oline were essentially up for grabs, and neither of these guys won either of them.

That tells me something. 

 

Urschel did have the opportunity at guard.  Jensen did not.  He was practicing at Center.   I think Jensen was getting looked at C for competition to drive Zuttah.  Not sure what the process is or is going to be going forward.  I scratch my head as to why they keep bouncing him around and not let him settle in at a position.....but all I can come up with is they don't want/need him to be a starter and look at him as a backup only.  Comparing his play to Ducasse, I would take Jensen......hands down.

 

[rmcjacket23]

28 minutes ago, Cawtious said:

Urschel did have the opportunity at guard.  Jensen did not.  He was practicing at Center.   I think Jensen was getting looked at C for competition to drive Zuttah.  Not sure what the process is or is going to be going forward.  I scratch my head as to why they keep bouncing him around and not let him settle in at a position.....but all I can come up with is they don't want/need him to be a starter and look at him as a backup only.  Comparing his play to Ducasse, I would take Jensen......hands down.

 

Mostly because versatility is vital for reserve lineman. Does him no good to focus on one position.

[BmoreBird22]

I'm still pulling for Sean McVay

[The Raven]

2 hours ago, ellicottraven said:

Flacco is 1st in pass attempts in the league, 5th in passing yards thrown, 25 in QBR. Says it all for our season. Run game is talented and strong, but yet we rely on Joe throwing the ball. I don't know if it is the coaching, Joe's pressure on them to let him throw or Marty's ineptness at being OC. Any way you cut it, we look doomed.

No it's not

52 minutes ago, Cawtious said:

Urschel did have the opportunity at guard.  Jensen did not.  He was practicing at Center.   I think Jensen was getting looked at C for competition to drive Zuttah.  Not sure what the process is or is going to be going forward.  I scratch my head as to why they keep bouncing him around and not let him settle in at a position.....but all I can come up with is they don't want/need him to be a starter and look at him as a backup only.  Comparing his play to Ducasse, I would take Jensen......hands down.

 

Yes he did. He got play time there.

And... Ducasse has overall been better than Urschel and Jensen, to me. Alex Lewis is a bit better in pass protection but it's kind of a wash. 

[gtalk12]

our run game is still lacking...

[RavensFanMania]

6 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I'm still pulling for Sean McVay

Sean McVay is a bright up and coming mind in the NFL.  He was brilliant as a TEs coach prior to being promoted to OC of the skins.  I would have mentioned him in this thread, but there is not a chance in hell the skins let him come to the Ravens for the same position.  

 

Keep praying

[BmoreBird22]

14 minutes ago, RavensFanMania said:

Sean McVay is a bright up and coming mind in the NFL.  He was brilliant as a TEs coach prior to being promoted to OC of the skins.  I would have mentioned him in this thread, but there is not a chance in hell the skins let him come to the Ravens for the same position.  

 

Keep praying

I think what may help him is that the Skins don't actually use him as the play caller. The play caller is Jay Gruden. If they weren't complete jerks, they'd allow him to move into a position where he'd get the chance to call the plays.

[RavensFanMania]

3 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I think what may help him is that the Skins don't actually use him as the play caller. The play caller is Jay Gruden. If they weren't complete jerks, they'd allow him to move into a position where he'd get the chance to call the plays.

I'm pretty sure McVay is calling the plays now.  I could be wrong but thought he took over play calling duties.

just confirmed he took over playcalling duties in 2015.  

Edited December 21, 2016 by RavensFanMania

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, RavensFanMania said:

I'm pretty sure McVay is calling the plays now.  I could be wrong but thought he took over play calling duties.

Is he? I thought it was just Gruden, but if he is calling the plays, then I'd have to take his name off the list. I thought Gruden was still doing it.

[Rav'n Maniac]

5 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Is he? I thought it was just Gruden, but if he is calling the plays, then I'd have to take his name off the list. I thought Gruden was still doing it.

I'd still be interested in Pete Carmichael from the Saints if Payton is traded away unless he takes Pete with him. A new HC there would most likely want their own staff.

[Cawtious]

21 hours ago, The Raven said:

No it's not

Yes he did. He got play time there.

And... Ducasse has overall been better than Urschel and Jensen, to me. Alex Lewis is a bit better in pass protection but it's kind of a wash. 

He was not given a chance to work at that position during camp.  He was thrust into playing guard without the prep, is what I am getting at.  He spent most of camp working as the backup center.

 

Go take a look at Filmstudy's grading of Ducasse over the last three games and show me on Jensen's grades where he was worse that what Ducasse has shown this year.  Ducasse is abysmally worse.  I spend a lot of time watching line play and he's not better.....not by a long shot.  I trust Filmstudy over my own opinions, and yours......no disrespect intended.....just props to what Filmstudy does.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Cawtious

[rmcjacket23]

10 minutes ago, Cawtious said:

He was not given a chance to work at that position during camp.  He was thrust into playing guard without the prep, is what I am getting at.  He spent most of camp working as the backup center.

 

Go take a look at Filmstudy's grading of Ducasse over the last three games and show me on Jensen's grades where he was worse that what Ducasse has shown this year.  Ducasse is abysmally worse.  I spend a lot of time watching line play and he's not better.....not by a long shot.  I trust Filmstudy over my own opinions, and yours......no disrespect intended.....just props to what Filmstudy does.

Why did you only pick the last three games though?

Plus, prior to the Eagles game, both of Ducasse's previous two games against Miami and NE was better than Jensen's first game against Oakland, and he also has the highest individual game score between the two (against Cincinnati). 

I would also point out the now notable asterisks with FilmStudy's grades (as noted by Ken himself)... he emphasizes pass blocking significantly more than run blocking, and he notably gives much harsher grading for penalties. I believe he referenced that two penalties pretty much automatically gets you a failing grade, but there might have been a slight modification to that.

I trust PFF slightly more, though I haven't looked at the detailed scores for Ducasse vs Jensen at that point anyway. Granted, they're not playing the same teams either, so its not exactly apples to apples.

A bit of a moot point at the end, because I don't think either has been particularly good, nor do I think making a switch offers a huge upgrade either.

[The Raven]

1 hour ago, Cawtious said:

He was not given a chance to work at that position during camp.  He was thrust into playing guard without the prep, is what I am getting at.  He spent most of camp working as the backup center.

 

Go take a look at Filmstudy's grading of Ducasse over the last three games and show me on Jensen's grades where he was worse that what Ducasse has shown this year.  Ducasse is abysmally worse.  I spend a lot of time watching line play and he's not better.....not by a long shot.  I trust Filmstudy over my own opinions, and yours......no disrespect intended.....just props to what Filmstudy does.

He's been a pro for, what, four years? He's had chances. C'mon now.

As someone who once played line, I think Filmstudy's grading is mediocre and his system is misguided. I think it's a wash between Jensen and Ducasse, but Jensen's pass pro was definitely worse.

Edited December 21, 2016 by The Raven

[RaineV1]

11 hours ago, Rav'n Maniac said:

I'd still be interested in Pete Carmichael from the Saints if Payton is traded away unless he takes Pete with him. A new HC there would most likely want their own staff.

Pete Carmichael would be a pretty good pick up. The Saints may be known for their passing offense, but they are actually fairly balanced, and do run the ball when it's effective.

[Rav'n Maniac]

35 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

Pete Carmichael would be a pretty good pick up. The Saints may be known for their passing offense, but they are actually fairly balanced, and do run the ball when it's effective.

Yeah I really like the fact that he has long trained under Payton who imo is one of the better offensive minds presently and also that he is fairly young being in the mid-forties. I'm ready for some fresh minded input for this offense.

[Dubs]

47 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

Pete Carmichael would be a pretty good pick up. The Saints may be known for their passing offense, but they are actually fairly balanced, and do run the ball when it's effective.

agreed--dont see the Saints allowing a lateral movement if they do no shakeups this offseason and if they do he seems tied at the hip with Payton. Would anyone be interested in giving Joe Lombardi another shot? I know he kinda stunk it up with the Lions and Jim Bob is showing it can work there but he comes from the Payton tree and may be more ready now and Staffy at the time really loved him some CJ