Candidates to be the next OC

[K-Dog]

5 hours ago, Cville-Raven said:

I mean we have guys who can do that. The problem is we give the guys who can't do that the ball way too much; juice and Pitta.

The same Pitta that leads the team in receptions ?

[Cville-Raven]

Just now, K-Dog said:

The same Pitta that leads the team in receptions ?

He can catch, he can't do the second part though. 

[Tank 92]

5 hours ago, Cville-Raven said:

I mean we have guys who can do that. The problem is we give the guys who can't do that the ball way too much; juice and Pitta.

The other guys get the ball, they just aren't consistent and dependable. Drops, giving up on balls, not fighting for the ball, unaware the ball is being thrown to you.....lol just not what I would call play makers. Hopefully that can change, don't know. 

[Cville-Raven]

16 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

The other guys get the ball, they just aren't consistent and dependable. Drops, giving up on balls, not fighting for the ball, unaware the ball is being thrown to you.....lol just not what I would call play makers. Hopefully that can change, don't know. 

They don't get it enough though. Guys who rarely generate big plays get way too many targets. That's the problem other guys need to be targeted more. Btw Steve Smith and Wallace are playmakers. They're not Beckham or Brown but they can do good things for you. Need to use them. 

Edited December 13, 2016 by Cville-Raven

[BmoreBird22]

@Ravensfan23 Do you see what I was talking about with how the Patriots are pretty dedicated to their running game and how the Ravens weren't going to be a team like New England if they didn't consistently run the ball?

[Hardbaugh]

The OC doesn't matter, high draft picks on the offensive side are a waste. You can put high test in a volkswagon but at the end of the day it's still a volkswagon.

[Ravensfan23]

9 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

@Ravensfan23 Do you see what I was talking about with how the Patriots are pretty dedicated to their running game and how the Ravens weren't going to be a team like New England if they didn't consistently run the ball?

I knew what you were talking about when we first started. But again, this is what this game dictated for them. As I mentioned before they are in a position to run the ball in the 4th quarter more than the Ravens. The Pats had 23 rushes(non QB or WR) in this game and 5 came on the final drive to close out the game. That that means they ran the ball a total of 19 times while operating in their normal offense. Brady had 38 passes to 19 runs. Meanwhile the Ravens ran the ball 13 times, but down by 10 with only 6 minutes left, they went to a 2min offense and Flacco tacked on 9 more passes. So if you take away those 9 passes in the 2min catchup offense, that puts Flacco's attempts at 43. So the Pats pass:run ratio was 38:19 and the Ravens were 43:13 can you see what I was talking about saying the Ravens aren't running the ball much less then them? So what was the difference, imo it came because the Pats were averaging 4.3ypc while the Ravens were at 3.5ypc and couldn't get out of their own way with penalties. The Pats just had more success and that allowed them to continue using it to stay on the field with 1st downs and getting chucks off playaction. The Ravens didn't have that luxury. 

The Ravens just aren't a good rushing team right now and it's not because for lack of attempts imo. But I do agree with you that being able to have full use of both run and pass can make this offense nearly unstoppable, they just have to get to that point. 

[ravensnation5220]

This offseason. We have to make it a priority to fix the running game. Dixon is too good of a back to have to break tackles vs linebackers and lineman just to pick up 5 yards. We need a new running scheme and some interior lineman to change this thing around. The Ravens just don't win when we can't run the ball. History has proven that to be true

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I knew what you were talking about when we first started. But again, this is what this game dictated for them. As I mentioned before they are in a position to run the ball in the 4th quarter more than the Ravens. The Pats had 23 rushes(non QB or WR) in this game and 5 came on the final drive to close out the game. That that means they ran the ball a total of 19 times while operating in their normal offense. Brady had 38 passes to 19 runs. Meanwhile the Ravens ran the ball 13 times, but down by 10 with only 6 minutes left, they went to a 2min offense and Flacco tacked on 9 more passes. So if you take away those 9 passes in the 2min catchup offense, that puts Flacco's attempts at 43. So the Pats pass:run ratio was 38:19 and the Ravens were 43:13 can you see what I was talking about saying the Ravens aren't running the ball much less then them? So what was the difference, imo it came because the Pats were averaging 4.3ypc while the Ravens were at 3.5ypc and couldn't get out of their own way with penalties. The Pats just had more success and that allowed them to continue using it to stay on the field with 1st downs and getting chucks off playaction. The Ravens didn't have that luxury. 

The Ravens just aren't a good rushing team right now and it's not because for lack of attempts imo. But I do agree with you that being able to have full use of both run and pass can make this offense nearly unstoppable, they just have to get to that point. 

I think you certainly have to include the rushes from a wide receiver. That's a designed run play by the offense, so it should 100% be factored in. I factor them in with all of my numbers.

However, in the first half, the Patriots ran the ball 16 times against 26 passes. I believe they ran it on first down on five of their seven drives and on six, the running back was the first to touch the ball. On one of their drives, they had an offensive holding that set them back eight yards AND THEY STILL ran the ball on first down. The Patriots were just more dedicated to moving the ball on the ground.

In the second half, it's a little bit harder to prove whether or not they would have kept running the ball more because they had that long quick strike to Hogan that accounted for an entire drive and they only had one other long touchdown drive, but they still ran the ball like 40% of the time.

The Ravens had all of four rushing attempts in the first half against 26 pass attempts. I don't care if you are running the ball poorly; that's going to lead to exactly what the Patriots did- rush three or four and sell out to stop the pass. 

I don't think too coincidentally, Flacco's play started to pick up in the second half and the Ravens ran the ball seven times against nine passes in the third quarter. 

The Patriots came out with a balanced attack and were able to convincingly sell play action to the point that they got massive yardage off of it. Hogan's touchdown was a play action pass that the Ravens saw coming (Weddle said he told the defense to watch for PA), but Weddle still bit down extremely hard because there was a good chance the Patriots really would run the ball. 

I think someone said that if you take away the rush for -4 yards, Dixon had like 10 carries for 44 yards. He was fighting hard for every single yard and he was getting the ground game going. No reason to go out on your first drive and run the ball a grand total of zero times. That'll never win it against a team like New England.

[Ravensfan23]

3 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I think you certainly have to include the rushes from a wide receiver. That's a designed run play by the offense, so it should 100% be factored in. I factor them in with all of my numbers.

However, in the first half, the Patriots ran the ball 16 times against 26 passes. I believe they ran it on first down on five of their seven drives and on six, the running back was the first to touch the ball. On one of their drives, they had an offensive holding that set them back eight yards AND THEY STILL ran the ball on first down. The Patriots were just more dedicated to moving the ball on the ground.

In the second half, it's a little bit harder to prove whether or not they would have kept running the ball more because they had that long quick strike to Hogan that accounted for an entire drive and they only had one other long touchdown drive, but they still ran the ball like 40% of the time.

The Ravens had all of four rushing attempts in the first half against 26 pass attempts. I don't care if you are running the ball poorly; that's going to lead to exactly what the Patriots did- rush three or four and sell out to stop the pass. 

I don't think too coincidentally, Flacco's play started to pick up in the second half and the Ravens ran the ball seven times against nine passes in the third quarter. 

The Patriots came out with a balanced attack and were able to convincingly sell play action to the point that they got massive yardage off of it. Hogan's touchdown was a play action pass that the Ravens saw coming (Weddle said he told the defense to watch for PA), but Weddle still bit down extremely hard because there was a good chance the Patriots really would run the ball. 

I think someone said that if you take away the rush for -4 yards, Dixon had like 10 carries for 44 yards. He was fighting hard for every single yard and he was getting the ground game going. No reason to go out on your first drive and run the ball a grand total of zero times. That'll never win it against a team like New England.

I'm not disagreeing with you. The Pats were definitely more committed to the run. My point is they had more success with the run early on. My entire point that start this was your statement that said Marty abandons the run even when it's proven to be successful and I just don't see that to be true. Is he committed to establishing the run? Not at all, I think he'd love to use it as a complimentary piece and as effective as it is, I still believe that is exactly how the Pats use it. 

All i'm saying is you can't compare a offense that has been running for 10+ years and are so comfortable with each other to one running for 9 weeks. When we played them in 2014 they ran the ball a total of 8 times i think. That's just a offense that can beat you in many different ways and everyone would love to do that but that takes time to build. Does Marty have flaws, yes. Would I like to see the run game get going more, yes especially with a guy like Dixon who I feel has Ray Rice potential. But that has to be built. I would love to see the Ravens be able to run the ball successfully and I actually think there were more opportunities to run the ball Monday but execution is a huge part of it. As you said Dixon had to fight for every single yard, he didn't have much running room because the Pats were winning at the LOS. But again, I agree you certainly need to run the ball more than 2 times in the first half. I understood the need to use the short pass as an extension of the run game but the only way the Ravens were gonna get consistent space vs the Pats was move those LBs and Safeties with play action.

I guess my stance is, I'd rather see this offense go through it's growing pains of building that same type of chemistry as a unit that teams like the Pats, Steelers and Packers have, than to change things again in hopes that you'll get the perfect guy. A lot of what the Pats do in the run game is a result of Brady checking into runs when he sees favorable fronts and everyone being on the same page. This offense will never get there if you change things up every year. Kubiak was the exception of the run and even he hasn't done the greatest job in Denver. 

[Tank 92]

It really doesn't seem that the Ravens' patchwork O line, specifically up the middle, is equipped right now for the type of run game they would like to have. 

[Cillmatic]

Frank Pollack

 

The current O-line coach of the Cowboys?

[BmoreBird22]

http://www.espn.com/blog/baltimore-ravens/post/_/id/32504/joe-flacco-no-doubt-ravens-need-to-run-the-ball-more

Excellent article detailing a lot of what I've been saying.

[EdTheMythicalOne]

I'd be willing to accept the phone call if the Ravens called me. I jest, a fan on here suggested I be the OC after I made a post about my philosophy which is the direct opposite of what the Ravens did against the Patriots. What was it, 5 running plays at the end of the half for the Ravens? Yeah, that will help set up your play action passing alright. Want to stop them dropping 15 people into coverage, run the dang ball. Make them pay. Make them commit. Make them honor the run.

[redrum52]

On 12/14/2016 at 8:47 AM, Cillmatic said:

Frank Pollack

 

The current O-line coach of the Cowboys?

He's going to teach us how to hold and not get flagged?

 

The OL play has actually improved the past few weeks.  The run game problem is usually a result of lack of attempts and Flacco has been getting decent time back there.  Yes there are penalties scattered in there, but for the most part, they've been doing their job.  Or at least I think they have.

[PurpleCity5]

Our offense has improved, but its really not a good look for Marty that we've been running it less effectively. I don't think he should shoulder all of the blame at all, in fact I think he gets less than half of it but Harbaugh did want to run the ball more and better which is why he fired Trestman. 

[BmoreBird22]

West and Dixon combine for the third fewest carries in the league. 

The Ravens are dead last in first half rushing attempts. 

The Ravens are running the ball LESS under Marty, producing LESS yardage, and are LESS efficient running under Marty.

The Ravens are on pace to finish with their fewest rushing attempts ever, but lead the league in pass attempts.

The Ravens have rushed the ball fewer than 20 times in four of eight Marty games. 

Marty said the Ravens had a game plan against the Pats, but got away from it as the score got higher. This simply isn't true as the offense forced three three-and-outs, but 14 of the first 16 plays were passes.

All of this together and Marty has to go. Absolutely zero desire to run the ball and could not adjust to the Patriots zone coverages.

Edited December 16, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[BmoreBird22]

11 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Our offense has improved, but its really not a good look for Marty that we've been running it less effectively. I don't think he should shoulder all of the blame at all, in fact I think he gets less than half of it but Harbaugh did want to run the ball more and better which is why he fired Trestman. 

I don't see improvements.

Two games with one TD and several where the offense craps itself or only shows up for one half.

[jazz1988]

29 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

West and Dixon combine for the third fewest carries in the league. 

The Ravens are dead last in first half rushing attempts. 

The Ravens are running the ball LESS under Marty, producing LESS yardage, and are LESS efficient running under Marty.

The Ravens are on pace to finish with their fewest rushing attempts ever, but lead the league in pass attempts.

The Ravens have rushed the ball fewer than 20 times in four of eight Marty games. 

Marty said the Ravens had a game plan against the Pats, but got away from it as the score got higher. This simply isn't true as the offense forced three three-and-outs, but 14 of the first 16 plays were passes.

All of this together and Marty has to go. Absolutely zero desire to run the ball and could not adjust to the Patriots zone coverages.

 

Even with all that this is the same guy that had  a rushing attack  ranked third overall with The Jets and had  a pretty successful rushing attack with The Eagles as well. Unless the offense performance continue to get worse then I don't think it's a good idea for The Ravens to look for a new offensive coordinator after this season .

[52520Andrew]

32 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

West and Dixon combine for the third fewest carries in the league. 

The Ravens are dead last in first half rushing attempts. 

The Ravens are running the ball LESS under Marty, producing LESS yardage, and are LESS efficient running under Marty.

The Ravens are on pace to finish with their fewest rushing attempts ever, but lead the league in pass attempts.

The Ravens have rushed the ball fewer than 20 times in four of eight Marty games. 

Marty said the Ravens had a game plan against the Pats, but got away from it as the score got higher. This simply isn't true as the offense forced three three-and-outs, but 14 of the first 16 plays were passes.

All of this together and Marty has to go. Absolutely zero desire to run the ball and could not adjust to the Patriots zone coverages.

Yeah we really need to get back to the run game. With 2 speedsters in Wallace and Perriman along with a QB who is great at play action, you would think running the ball to set up the pass would be a foregone conclusion.

Counting on Flacco to pass all game just doesn't seem smart to me given his inconsistencies.

[BmoreBird22]

7 hours ago, 52520Andrew said:

Yeah we really need to get back to the run game. With 2 speedsters in Wallace and Perriman along with a QB who is great at play action, you would think running the ball to set up the pass would be a foregone conclusion.

Counting on Flacco to pass all game just doesn't seem smart to me given his inconsistencies.

If this were another year, like 2014, asking him to pas this much wouldn't bother me as much (would still be bad, but not THIS bad) because in 2014, Flacco was sharp and on point and had much better mechanics. But right now, Flacco has shoddy mechanics and is coming off an ACL tear. Why put him back there 50+ times a game...?

[trevorsteadman]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

If this were another year, like 2014, asking him to pas this much wouldn't bother me as much (would still be bad, but not THIS bad) because in 2014, Flacco was sharp and on point and had much better mechanics. But right now, Flacco has shoddy mechanics and is coming off an ACL tear. Why put him back there 50+ times a game...?

I think if you went back to 2014 people would still complain about him being sharp and his 'bad mechanics'. I think the main difference is in 2014 there was actually a run game. The Ravens are not confident in their run game to the point they would rather throw 2 yard check downs every play instead. The team in 2014 had a no named running back averaging 5 yards a carry and had 1200 yards on the year. This year is completely different. 

[BmoreBird22]

1 minute ago, trevorsteadman said:

I think if you went back to 2014 people would still complain about him being sharp and his 'bad mechanics'. I think the main difference is in 2014 there was actually a run game. The Ravens are not confident in their run game to the point they would rather throw 2 yard check downs every play instead. The team in 2014 had a no named running back averaging 5 yards a carry and had 1200 yards on the year. This year is completely different. 

Since Dixon has become a bigger part of the plan, the running game has really turned it's effectiveness around. He's just so violent when he runs and doesn't go down easily.

However, on the topic of mechanics, they were far better in 2014. We weren't seeing these throws off the back foot and his footwork as a whole was vastly improved. His accuracy also wasn't as shoddy.

[trevorsteadman]

8 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Since Dixon has become a bigger part of the plan, the running game has really turned it's effectiveness around. He's just so violent when he runs and doesn't go down easily.

However, on the topic of mechanics, they were far better in 2014. We weren't seeing these throws off the back foot and his footwork as a whole was vastly improved. His accuracy also wasn't as shoddy.

I agree I think Dixon is becoming a huge part of this offense and will play a big role... Dixon still only managed 3.5 yards per carry against a not so great New England front 7. He doesn't get much room before he his hit. The offensive line isn't opening holes like it used to. The Ravens have struggled to get those break out runs. I do like how 'slippery' Dixon is and how good he is at shedding tacklers. I was actually really confused when his trucking was higher than West on Madden but after the last two games he has really shown his ability to keep his legs churning for extra yards and slip tacklers especially when he isn't that big of a back.

While I agree that he has thrown off his back foot a lot I feel like some of it is him trying to get the ball out early in fear of getting hit or sacked. The offensive line has had moments of greatness like against the Dolphins but then they also did a pretty terrible job against the Patriots when they only rushed three players. I also think it doesn't help the team has almost abandoned throwing the deep ball. There have been a few but not nearly as many as the past and that is Flacco's strength. The team needs to get back to throwing the ball downfield and having Flacco utilize the entire field instead of check downs, crosses, and screens every play. While I do think Mike Wallace is heads over heels better than Torrey Smith for us, I also think Pitta isn't nearly as good as he used to be as expected with his injuries and has been inconsistent and Steve Smith has clearly lost a step after being on pace for 1500 yards last year. But again that is to be expected with his injury. I really think the key for this offense to get to the next level is getting Perriman more involved. He seems to break that coverage more consistently when hes on the field than anybody else except maybe Wallace.

[Tank 92]

10 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I don't see improvements.

Two games with one TD and several where the offense craps itself or only shows up for one half.

No doubt the lack of a run game is hurting and holding back the offense. But if they thought they could consistently succeed with the run they would be running more. I think it has zero to do with offensive game planning or philosophy and everything to do with not being confident in run blocking. Hopefully that improves soon because time is running short!

[BmoreBird22]

2 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

No doubt the lack of a run game is hurting and holding back the offense. But if they thought they could consistently succeed with the run they would be running more. I think it has zero to do with offensive game planning or philosophy and everything to do with not being confident in run blocking. Hopefully that improves soon because time is running short!

I don't know how they can be comfortable with the passing game at this juncture, either, honestly. 

Even if it isn't ripping off massive gains, at least running will keep the defenses honest.

[The Raven]

12 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

West and Dixon combine for the third fewest carries in the league. 

The Ravens are dead last in first half rushing attempts. 

The Ravens are running the ball LESS under Marty, producing LESS yardage, and are LESS efficient running under Marty.

The Ravens are on pace to finish with their fewest rushing attempts ever, but lead the league in pass attempts.

The Ravens have rushed the ball fewer than 20 times in four of eight Marty games. 

Marty said the Ravens had a game plan against the Pats, but got away from it as the score got higher. This simply isn't true as the offense forced three three-and-outs, but 14 of the first 16 plays were passes.

All of this together and Marty has to go. Absolutely zero desire to run the ball and could not adjust to the Patriots zone coverages.

Question from an olineman to a DB. How do you beat zone? It looked to me like they ran a lot of tampa 2 and cover 3 against us. They did a good job at watching the flats and even the seams. What did they do and how do you beat it?

I've always heard that one way to beat zone is to take what the defense gives you, throw short, and break tackles -- that's what the Pats did to us -- but we couldn't do that. I realize that the weak spot of tampa 2 and cover 3 is behind the backers and in front of the safeties, but our run game was so nonexistent that the LBs dropped back there.

Are there any former receivers here that could provide insight, too?

[terrynjulia03]

The big problem is Ducasse has always been a poor run blocker and Zuttah while never being above average is flat washed out. Add in Marty still has Trestman playbook, which is a pass happy one to begin with, and this is what you get. I still say keep Marty and let him implement his scheme in the offseason. Dixon fits what he likes to do perfectly along with Perriman and Wallace. If you look at schemes he ran in Philly. But the OL has to be figured out. If you lose Wagner and move Lewis, yay you take care of RT. But you still need a C and LG, unless they decide to leave Yanda there and than you must upgrade RG significantly. Bottom line the interior on one side or the other MUST be upgraded, via FA or the Draft. 

[usmccharles]

Having a dominant run game really helps this offense/Joe, obviously. Even if we run the ball 30 times a game, if we don't have the talent at that position then it wont matter.  I don't know if Dixon is our future, he definitely looks like a dynamic back, but just plugging in any rb isn't going to work imo, so hopefully he becomes our next workhorse back. 

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, The Raven said:

Question from an olineman to a DB. How do you beat zone? It looked to me like they ran a lot of tampa 2 and cover 3 against us. They did a good job at watching the flats and even the seams. What did they do and how do you beat it?

I've always heard that one way to beat zone is to take what the defense gives you, throw short, and break tackles -- that's what the Pats did to us -- but we couldn't do that. I realize that the weak spot of tampa 2 and cover 3 is behind the backers and in front of the safeties, but our run game was so nonexistent that the LBs dropped back there.

Are there any former receivers here that could provide insight, too?

I was so frustrated with this game that I haven't gone back to watch it with a clear mind (watch it once to watch it as a football fan and once to analyze the game), so I can't say definitively what they did other than roughing up the defenders at the LoS and not giving them a free release.

As far as the Tampa 2 goes, you can actually beat the Tampa 2 in the same way that you could a Cover 2 scheme up the middle on seam routes. Their MLB, Hightower, is known as a big thumper without much speed to him. Put SSS in the slot or have Waller run a seam route and Hightower isn't going to be able to keep up in his drop. He's going to have the initial drop to take away a short pass, but is he keeping up with Waller or SSS for 20, 30 yards? No, probably not. The issue is that the MLB usually can't keep up, but he still tends to prevent those passes. Why? The quarterback hesitates. You just have to fire off right there when you see a slight window and if you don't, the linebacker is just going to increase his depth even further and take it away. That's the area I would have attacked first because the Patriots don't have athletic linebackers without Jamie Collins. 

If they want to attack with the receivers, you are correct that it is going to be a defense that will give you the underneath routes, more often to the sideline than the middle of the field. Many of those routes will be short outbreaking routes, but you can definitely attack it deep. Do you remember the SSS back shoulder fade? That's actually a perfect way to attack the defense deep. The corners are going to play over the top and push the routes to the boundary. It requires a precise throw, but comeback routes, out breaking routes, or back shoulder throws are going to beat that coverage.

As far as Cover 3 goes, there's actually several ways to beat it.

The defense will always surrender short passes to the outside very quickly due to the corners dropping deep and the SS and OLB having to buzz to the outside, but there are other ways to beat it.

Easiest way? Just run four verticals. Force the free safety to pick which route to help over the top and hope that a tight end on the inside can beat the linebacker over the top. Another way is to run inside verticals and then run deep outs or deep curls routes. If they're not playing in a press alignment (similar to the Seahawks), the corners will quickly drop to their third of the field and two verticals on the inside will clear out any outside routes in the intermediate range. You can run a three level concept. Have the wide receiver run a vertical route with the fullback or running back running a drag route. Force the linebackers to bite down while the corner drops to his depth. Then, have the tight end or slot receiver break on a corner route. If it's done correctly, the linebackers should bite down and the corner will go deep and force a wide zone for the slot/tight end to have a catch near the boundary between the linebackers and corner. 

Most of the routes that beat Cover 3 and Tampa 2 are going to be boundary type routes.

Edited December 16, 2016 by BmoreBird22