Week 11 - Baltimore Ravens at Dallas Cowboys

[Tank 92]

1 hour ago, kennethyamini1989 said:

i agree. Boyz are having a truly magical season tho. I mean 2 rookies carrying their team..it is spectacular to witness. 

You are kidding, right? 

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, Afchris2006 said:

If we don't blame the head coach and the players don't work hard at good discipline, then who do we blame? 

That would be the players. After all, they are the one's who, you know, actually commit the penalties.

Find me a coach who encourages and teaches their team to commit penalties. Never seen a DC or DL coach who teaches their players to jump offsides, yet players do it. Never seen a ST coach teach the kickoff team to lineup offsides on a kickoff, yet players do it.

 

[Militant X 1]

20 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

That would be the players. After all, they are the one's who, you know, actually commit the penalties.

Find me a coach who encourages and teaches their team to commit penalties. Never seen a DC or DL coach who teaches their players to jump offsides, yet players do it. Never seen a ST coach teach the kickoff team to lineup offsides on a kickoff, yet players do it.

 

So, as a coach who's not on the field, how do you effectively convey the severity of not causing penalties or jumping offsides to your players?

Edited November 20, 2016 by Militant X 1

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, Militant X 1 said:

So, as a coach who's not on the field, how do you effectively convey the severity not causing penalties or jumping offsides to your players?

Well, the obvious way would be to hit them in their wallets, which many teams do. Many teams have internal fine programs in place for various penalties.

In theory, if its a younger player, you could bench them, which Harbaugh allegedly is notorious for doing. But again hypocritically, fans complain about unfair discipline towards younger players vs veterans, yet fans don't have the balls to bench key veterans when the game is on the line.

In reality, its mostly just personal pride and a sense of personal accomplishment. There's a very limited number of things that coaches can do in terms of discipline for athletes who make significantly more than they do. Benching works sometimes, but you're hurting the whole team, not just the individual player. You start benching veterans and losing games because of it, everybody gets fired.

If you get a reputation as a player of being undisciplined, it will hurt your overall worth over time. You won't make as much on the open market, and teams won't want you.

[Militant X 1]

5 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well, the obvious way would be to hit them in their wallets, which many teams do. Many teams have internal fine programs in place for various penalties.

In theory, if its a younger player, you could bench them, which Harbaugh allegedly is notorious for doing. But again hypocritically, fans complain about unfair discipline towards younger players vs veterans, yet fans don't have the balls to bench key veterans when the game is on the line.

In reality, its mostly just personal pride and a sense of personal accomplishment. There's a very limited number of things that coaches can do in terms of discipline for athletes who make significantly more than they do. Benching works sometimes, but you're hurting the whole team, not just the individual player. You start benching veterans and losing games because of it, everybody gets fired.

If you get a reputation as a player of being undisciplined, it will hurt your overall worth over time. You won't make as much on the open market, and teams won't want you.

I was thinking this.  When you start messing with my money, that's a different story.  I also never considered the "benching" and how it actually hurts the team more than that individual player perse.  

[Moderator 3]

I don't think teams are allowed to fine players for penalties.  If teams have some sort of system, it has to be player organized and administered.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, Moderator 3 said:

I don't think teams are allowed to fine players for penalties.  If teams have some sort of system, it has to be player organized and administered.

That's what I'm referring to. Basically a "Kangaroo court" of sort.

 

[playlikeawhat]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Well, the obvious way would be to hit them in their wallets, which many teams do. Many teams have internal fine programs in place for various penalties.

In theory, if its a younger player, you could bench them, which Harbaugh allegedly is notorious for doing. But again hypocritically, fans complain about unfair discipline towards younger players vs veterans, yet fans don't have the balls to bench key veterans when the game is on the line.

In reality, its mostly just personal pride and a sense of personal accomplishment. There's a very limited number of things that coaches can do in terms of discipline for athletes who make significantly more than they do. Benching works sometimes, but you're hurting the whole team, not just the individual player. You start benching veterans and losing games because of it, everybody gets fired.

If you get a reputation as a player of being undisciplined, it will hurt your overall worth over time. You won't make as much on the open market, and teams won't want you.

Beat me to that final point lol.  I was gonna say contract year is usually the only thing that consistently inspires an improvement in performance or if you're in "last stop" territory with a poor reputation.  My question is, is there a way to reasonably incentivize better performance out of players the way contract year pressure tends to do?  Do rookie contracts HAVE to be 4 years?  I know the idea of them being shorter sounds absurd on the surface but hear me out.  Make rookie contracts 2 years.  The psychology of that would be reinforcing the idea of 'no guarantees' in the league especially for players who consistently hurt the team with poor play and discipline.  I'm sure the league and players association would have to sit down and negotiate but I'm just trying to get a picture of how something like that could at least be reasonably explored.

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, playlikeawhat said:

Beat me to that final point lol.  I was gonna say contract year is usually the only thing that consistently inspires an improvement in performance or if you're in "last stop" territory with a poor reputation.  My question is, is there a way to reasonably incentivize better performance out of players the way contract year pressure tends to do?  Do rookie contracts HAVE to be 4 years?  I know the idea of them being shorter sounds absurd on the surface but hear me out.  Make rookie contracts 2 years.  The psychology of that would be reinforcing the idea of 'no guarantees' in the league especially for players who consistently hurt the team with poor play and discipline.  I'm sure the league and players association would have to sit down and negotiate but I'm just trying to get a picture of how something like that could at least be reasonably explored.

You can cut any player anytime you want. Only thing stopping you is the financial impact of doing so.

Doesn't do the teams or the players any good to make rookie contracts shorter. Besides, its easier to bench rookies because coaches can write it off as a "teaching moment". 

What's difficult is when you have somebody like Dumervil who lines up offsides like 3 times in a single game (believe that was last season) is coming up with a significant punishment for him. In most cases, it doesn't happen.

This notion that penalties are a reflection of coaching never made any sense. Bill Belichick coached teams commit multiple penalties on just about every game... sometimes even a lot of penalties. 

Players commit penalties. That's how it works.

[rmw10]

1 hour ago, playlikeawhat said:

Beat me to that final point lol.  I was gonna say contract year is usually the only thing that consistently inspires an improvement in performance or if you're in "last stop" territory with a poor reputation.  My question is, is there a way to reasonably incentivize better performance out of players the way contract year pressure tends to do?  Do rookie contracts HAVE to be 4 years?  I know the idea of them being shorter sounds absurd on the surface but hear me out.  Make rookie contracts 2 years.  The psychology of that would be reinforcing the idea of 'no guarantees' in the league especially for players who consistently hurt the team with poor play and discipline.  I'm sure the league and players association would have to sit down and negotiate but I'm just trying to get a picture of how something like that could at least be reasonably explored.

Teams would never go for 2 year rookie contracts.  A big part of the game is having guys on cheap contracts.  If you get rid of that advantage, teams are paying big money to guys after year 2 who likely haven't proven themselves worthy of a large contract at that point.