Defensive Line Issue 2017

[Cillmatic]

On November 15, 2016 at 7:31 PM, Wildabeast88 said:

What happened to that whole draft class being a bust. Now we want to resign 2guys. I would love to keep both but feel Williams is better option. Wagner could be replaced by Lewis just need to address interior O-line

Lewis is at his best when he's next to Stanley. Can't mess up that chemistry. Wagner has been pretty good lately, he's a keeper.

[VermontRaven]

2 minutes ago, Cillmatic said:

Lewis is at his best when he's next to Stanley. Can't mess up that chemistry. Wagner has been pretty good lately, he's a keeper.

That certainly would be nice.  I think it all comes down to how much Wagner is worth on the open market.  I can't see us overpaying him, but if we can retain him at a fair price, I think we would.  IF we can keep Wagner, we would have 4/5 of our starting line returning (LT-Stanley, LG-Lewis, RG-Yanda, RT-Wagner)

[Ravenseconbeast]

Having people harp.hpw bad we are on our oline.  We are still ranked top 13th in the league.   

It isnt as bad as people perceive it.  It is more than capable.  We are juat not producing points.

[trevorsteadman]

28 minutes ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

Having people harp.hpw bad we are on our oline.  We are still ranked top 13th in the league.   

It isnt as bad as people perceive it.  It is more than capable.  We are juat not producing points.

That depends on what the rankings are based off of. Flacco has done an excellent job of throwing the ball away and avoiding unnecessary sacks. The O-line fails to create holes a lot of the time and the running backs get hit behind the line of scrimmage. This is also flawed because Flacco is in the top 10 in time to get the ball out of his hands in the offense which is why the offense was at the bottom in yards per play a few weeks back. There are issues still there. 

[Tank 92]

2 hours ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

Having people harp.hpw bad we are on our oline.  We are still ranked top 13th in the league.   

It isnt as bad as people perceive it.  It is more than capable.  We are juat not producing points.

lol....  If you've watched the games you know the true story. Remarkable that Flacco hasn't been hurt again.

[jboy19]

I think Williams is let go under the 80/20 rule in light of Pierce and I think Guy is too in light of Urban/Kaufusi. Dumervil is unlikely to be around next year because of his age and injuries, but I think Suggs sticks around if he doesn't retire (which I think with his bicep injury is a stronger possibility than people probably think). Judon, Correa and Zadarius Smith are the rush LBs going forward (and probably a draft pick or 2 depending on how cap casualties and free agency goes) and they'll definitely need to step up if the defense is going to have continued success. 

[JoeyFlex5]

A player like jernigan is hard to find, a lane plugger isn't. So many DTs come out of college looking like a stud penetrating machine and then fizzle out and never make an impact, you can't let a homegrown talent like that leave. 

Williams is a great player, but his market value Will be too high considering the number of teams with bad run defense and high cap room. It will be sad to see him go but I think it's for the best. Michael pierce by the way has been close to equal while also showing a higher ceiling due to his great athleticism. 

The money we save by getting doom off the books along with possibly Webb and then not retaining Williams will allow for a splash move to really solidify a unit. We could legitimately find ourselves signing a starting FA WR for the first time in a while this off season. 

[JoeyFlex5]

7 hours ago, Cillmatic said:

Lewis is at his best when he's next to Stanley. Can't mess up that chemistry. Wagner has been pretty good lately, he's a keeper.

Wagner's an injury concern though. And he lacks in run blocking. The lingering effects of the lisfranc seem to be going away but hasn't he had a few more nagging injuries as well? I could be wrong but idk...

6 hours ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

Having people harp.hpw bad we are on our oline.  We are still ranked top 13th in the league.   

It isnt as bad as people perceive it.  It is more than capable.  We are juat not producing points.

Stop reading stats and watch the game before you talk out the side of your neck. Just because Joe hasn't been sacked often doesn't mean our line has been good, it just means he's gotten rid of it quick enough, and often to our dismay when he takes a hit as he's throwing or he throws it out of bounds for 3 straight plays to avoid the sack. He has been hammered all year long, but I'm sure that his fault that he has to throw it away before he even finishes his drop back and us flaccopologists need to just get over it, am I right?

[Somerset Ravens]

3 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

A player like jernigan is hard to find, a lane plugger isn't. So many DTs come out of college looking like a stud penetrating machine and then fizzle out and never make an impact, you can't let a homegrown talent like that leave. 

Williams is a great player, but his market value Will be too high considering the number of teams with bad run defense and high cap room. It will be sad to see him go but I think it's for the best. Michael pierce by the way has been close to equal while also showing a higher ceiling due to his great athleticism. 

The money we save by getting doom off the books along with possibly Webb and then not retaining Williams will allow for a splash move to really solidify a unit. We could legitimately find ourselves signing a starting FA WR for the first time in a while this off season. 

I know you feel Williams is talented but will be  too expensive to resign. I am curious as to how much you would be willing to give Williams for  contract extension.

[RaineV1]

16 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

A player like jernigan is hard to find, a lane plugger isn't. So many DTs come out of college looking like a stud penetrating machine and then fizzle out and never make an impact, you can't let a homegrown talent like that leave. 

Williams is a great player, but his market value Will be too high considering the number of teams with bad run defense and high cap room. It will be sad to see him go but I think it's for the best. Michael pierce by the way has been close to equal while also showing a higher ceiling due to his great athleticism. 

The money we save by getting doom off the books along with possibly Webb and then not retaining Williams will allow for a splash move to really solidify a unit. We could legitimately find ourselves signing a starting FA WR for the first time in a while this off season. 

Those bolded parts seem kind of contradictory. If lane pluggers are easy to find, then why do so many teams have awful run defenses?

Edited November 17, 2016 by RaineV1

[JoeyFlex5]

Just now, RaineV1 said:

Those bolded parts seem kind of contradictory. If lane pluggers are easy to find, then why do so many teams have awful run defenses?

Because everyone has been trying to stock up on speedy pass rushers for years and now it's caught up to those teams who don't apply balance to their rosters. The skins for instance take Kerrigan and orakpo(long time ago, I know, but fitting example)and Preston Smith and sign junior gallette, but they ignored pot roast who they only signed for one year inexplicably, now they are pathetic against the run because all their cap space on defense is dedicated to the edge and the secondary. 

Just the typical curve of the NFL. Were on the complete opposite end of the spectrum in this case lol

[JoeyFlex5]

9 minutes ago, Somerset Ravens said:

I know you feel Williams is talented but will be  too expensive to resign. I am curious as to how much you would be willing to give Williams for  contract extension.

3.5mil per year is about where I'd max it out. And I'd feel like I'm plain disrespecting the man with that offer, I would feel better keeping that offer in my head and telling him to test the market lol. I just think with pierce and jernigan on the come up that his value is highly diminished.

[redrum52]

WHERE'S THE BEEF!?!?!?!?

 

I would hope we retain Williams, but I guess I'd settle for Pierce next year if he prices himself out.  Our DL is also good because I think that's one of of areas we draft and actually coach up well.

[redrum52]

1 minute ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

3.5mil per year is about where I'd max it out. And I'd feel like I'm plain disrespecting the man with that offer, I would feel better keeping that offer in my head and telling him to test the market lol. I just think with pierce and jernigan on the come up that his value is highly diminished.

You can't keep letting everyone walk, even if we do well drafting at that position.  Sends a bad message to guys who work hard, but I somewhat agree we can't afford to over pay for a NT.  Definitely can't when you pick up an undrafted guy and he performs like Pierce.  Would love if that if we do let Williams go that money goes towards with a wr...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

or Eric Berry.

[rmw10]

19 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Because everyone has been trying to stock up on speedy pass rushers for years and now it's caught up to those teams who don't apply balance to their rosters. The skins for instance take Kerrigan and orakpo(long time ago, I know, but fitting example)and Preston Smith and sign junior gallette, but they ignored pot roast who they only signed for one year inexplicably, now they are pathetic against the run because all their cap space on defense is dedicated to the edge and the secondary. 

Just the typical curve of the NFL. Were on the complete opposite end of the spectrum in this case lol

I don't think it's as easy to find a quality run defender as you think it is.

[JoeyFlex5]

12 minutes ago, redrum52 said:

You can't keep letting everyone walk, even if we do well drafting at that position.  Sends a bad message to guys who work hard, but I somewhat agree we can't afford to over pay for a NT.  Definitely can't when you pick up an undrafted guy and he performs like Pierce.  Would love if that if we do let Williams go that money goes towards with a wr.

 

That's why I'm hellbent on keeping jernigan. Mistreating guys sends a bad message, but taking a business approach doesn't. Letting a guy go and make more money with no hard feelings doesn't send a bad message at all, if anything it continues the trend of players getting big deals after putting in their dues in Baltimore, enticing young players to wanna come here because they have a chance to be set for life if they perform well. 

Most of these guys don't take these things personal, they're happy to take the best paycheck possible, no matter how bittersweet the departure may be.

2 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I don't think it's as easy to find a quality run defender as you think it is.

I may be underselling it but obviously it's easier than finding an explosive edge rusher, at least it is in our case. When we crank out quality run defenders like nobodies business but we are totally anemic in the pass rush, then I think we obviously should invest more in one area than the other. We will do well against the run without williams, but with or without him we are still gonna struggle to get to the qb.

[allblackraven]

20 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

3.5mil per year is about where I'd max it out. And I'd feel like I'm plain disrespecting the man with that offer, I would feel better keeping that offer in my head and telling him to test the market lol. I just think with pierce and jernigan on the come up that his value is highly diminished.

Nah. Elite run stuffers aren't easy to find and they cost big money. BW is definitely one of them and Ravens would be crazy not to pay him. The only obstacle I could see developing will be if someone offers money comparable to our KO situation last year.

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, allblackraven said:

Nah. Elite run stuffers aren't easy to find and they cost big money. BW is definitely one of them and Ravens would be crazy not to pay him. The only obstacle I could see developing will be if someone offers money comparable to our KO situation last year.

They don't cost big money, not compared to elite sack artists. And he will get offered more than we are willing to offer, but I don't think he's gonna be paid out of position like KO. KO got tackle money to play guard because we showcased him at LT, Williams won't be getting paid like a 3T because he hasn't showcased that skill set and he likely never will because he doesn't have that skill set. He will get paid like a 0/1T at top market value which is way more than we have any business offering to another run stuffer.

[GrimCoconut]

OP needs to edit his post do people don't start thinking Jernigan is a free agent after this year. As for the subject of not paying Williams because we have Pierce I think that's foolish because it's hard to say if Pierce will continue to trend upwards. This scenario has bit us and many other teams in the past. I wouldn't just left Williams walk and I would certainly offer more than 3.5M. He's worth at least 5-6M/year average imo

[VermontRaven]

11 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

OP needs to edit his post do people don't start thinking Jernigan is a free agent after this year. As for the subject of not paying Williams because we have Pierce I think that's foolish because it's hard to say if Pierce will continue to trend upwards. This scenario has bit us and many other teams in the past. I wouldn't just left Williams walk and I would certainly offer more than 3.5M. He's worth at least 5-6M/year average imo

I agree.  I think the Ravens will make a decent offer to Williams, but not overpay him.  I would guess somewhere between 5-7M/year is what Ravens will offer.  However, if he demands 8-10 on the open market, I can't see us paying him that.  I definitely think the Ravens will "try" to retain him, much like they did with KO.  There is no denying that Williams and Pierce is an awesome combination, and if we can preserve that for a few more years, that would be awesome...but the price has to be right.  Ozzie will not overpay, especially on the Dline, where he has a history of finding gems (drafted and undrafted)

[terrynjulia03]

Ok so I did a bit of research in relation to BWill and FA. The current teams that run a 3-4 are Cleve, Buff, SD,GB, AZ, Indy, KC, Jets, Niners, Pitt, Houston, Den, Chi, Oak and Tenn. 

Of those teams only Buff, SD, AZ, KC, Houston, Den, and Oak have DTs in FA this offseason. The only starters are SD, KC, Houston, Den and Oak. So that's only 5 teams that potentially need a NT. You can wipe SD off the list as Lissmore isn't even on their roster, or may be IRd doesn't say. AZ has Ruckers, who plays a role similar to Jerrigan for them but Peters is their starting NT so more than likely no interest there. Houston has Willfork, who is prob gone but they just drafted the kid from Clemson who has been splitting snaps, you'd imagine they'll use the money elsewhere and go with their draft pick moving forward. 

Which leaves only KC, Oak and Denver as potential suitors. KC has Poe with 39 tackles 1 sack and 1 FF. AND they drafted him pretty high. Oak has McGee with 14 tackles, 2.5 sacks and 2 FF. He's only making 500k so maybe a diamond in the rough dude or they got him off someone else's PS. Than you have Den with Williams 20 tackles 1 sack whom they also drafted pretty high given his 1.8M salary this year. 

Conversely BWill has 23 tackles and 1 sack. Basically the point is, the "open market" isn't going to go crazy. I'm betting he stays on a pretty cap friendly contract. None of those teams have crazy cap space and need a upgrade, they'll be bargaining just to keep their own player. 

[VermontRaven]

7 minutes ago, terrynjulia03 said:

Ok so I did a bit of research in relation to BWill and FA. The current teams that run a 3-4 are Cleve, Buff, SD,GB, AZ, Indy, KC, Jets, Niners, Pitt, Houston, Den, Chi, Oak and Tenn. 

Of those teams only Buff, SD, AZ, KC, Houston, Den, and Oak have DTs in FA this offseason. The only starters are SD, KC, Houston, Den and Oak. So that's only 5 teams that potentially need a NT. You can wipe SD off the list as Lissmore isn't even on their roster, or may be IRd doesn't say. AZ has Ruckers, who plays a role similar to Jerrigan for them but Peters is their starting NT so more than likely no interest there. Houston has Willfork, who is prob gone but they just drafted the kid from Clemson who has been splitting snaps, you'd imagine they'll use the money elsewhere and go with their draft pick moving forward. 

Which leaves only KC, Oak and Denver as potential suitors. KC has Poe with 39 tackles 1 sack and 1 FF. AND they drafted him pretty high. Oak has McGee with 14 tackles, 2.5 sacks and 2 FF. He's only making 500k so maybe a diamond in the rough dude or they got him off someone else's PS. Than you have Den with Williams 20 tackles 1 sack whom they also drafted pretty high given his 1.8M salary this year. 

Conversely BWill has 23 tackles and 1 sack. Basically the point is, the "open market" isn't going to go crazy. I'm betting he stays on a pretty cap friendly contract. None of those teams have crazy cap space and need a upgrade, they'll be bargaining just to keep their own player. 

I get your point, and I hope you are right.  However, I wouldn't discount Cleveland offering him big bucks. They have a ton of cap space and would love to make a splash signing or 2, especially one from their hated division rival.

[RaineV1]

49 minutes ago, terrynjulia03 said:

Ok so I did a bit of research in relation to BWill and FA. The current teams that run a 3-4 are Cleve, Buff, SD,GB, AZ, Indy, KC, Jets, Niners, Pitt, Houston, Den, Chi, Oak and Tenn. 

Of those teams only Buff, SD, AZ, KC, Houston, Den, and Oak have DTs in FA this offseason. The only starters are SD, KC, Houston, Den and Oak. So that's only 5 teams that potentially need a NT. You can wipe SD off the list as Lissmore isn't even on their roster, or may be IRd doesn't say. AZ has Ruckers, who plays a role similar to Jerrigan for them but Peters is their starting NT so more than likely no interest there. Houston has Willfork, who is prob gone but they just drafted the kid from Clemson who has been splitting snaps, you'd imagine they'll use the money elsewhere and go with their draft pick moving forward. 

Which leaves only KC, Oak and Denver as potential suitors. KC has Poe with 39 tackles 1 sack and 1 FF. AND they drafted him pretty high. Oak has McGee with 14 tackles, 2.5 sacks and 2 FF. He's only making 500k so maybe a diamond in the rough dude or they got him off someone else's PS. Than you have Den with Williams 20 tackles 1 sack whom they also drafted pretty high given his 1.8M salary this year. 

Conversely BWill has 23 tackles and 1 sack. Basically the point is, the "open market" isn't going to go crazy. I'm betting he stays on a pretty cap friendly contract. None of those teams have crazy cap space and need a upgrade, they'll be bargaining just to keep their own player. 

I wouldn't rule out Denver after their defense has been gashed by runners recently. The Raiders made running against them look easy. They're going to need a better run stuffer to deal with teams in their division.

[rmw10]

1 hour ago, terrynjulia03 said:

Ok so I did a bit of research in relation to BWill and FA. The current teams that run a 3-4 are Cleve, Buff, SD,GB, AZ, Indy, KC, Jets, Niners, Pitt, Houston, Den, Chi, Oak and Tenn. 

Of those teams only Buff, SD, AZ, KC, Houston, Den, and Oak have DTs in FA this offseason. The only starters are SD, KC, Houston, Den and Oak. So that's only 5 teams that potentially need a NT. You can wipe SD off the list as Lissmore isn't even on their roster, or may be IRd doesn't say. AZ has Ruckers, who plays a role similar to Jerrigan for them but Peters is their starting NT so more than likely no interest there. Houston has Willfork, who is prob gone but they just drafted the kid from Clemson who has been splitting snaps, you'd imagine they'll use the money elsewhere and go with their draft pick moving forward. 

Which leaves only KC, Oak and Denver as potential suitors. KC has Poe with 39 tackles 1 sack and 1 FF. AND they drafted him pretty high. Oak has McGee with 14 tackles, 2.5 sacks and 2 FF. He's only making 500k so maybe a diamond in the rough dude or they got him off someone else's PS. Than you have Den with Williams 20 tackles 1 sack whom they also drafted pretty high given his 1.8M salary this year. 

Conversely BWill has 23 tackles and 1 sack. Basically the point is, the "open market" isn't going to go crazy. I'm betting he stays on a pretty cap friendly contract. None of those teams have crazy cap space and need a upgrade, they'll be bargaining just to keep their own player. 

NYG runs a 4-3 and they paid big money for Damon Harrison.  You can't limit the pool of potential suitors to only 3-4 teams.

[BmoreBird22]

On the topic of whether or not it's hard to find run defenders, I think Joey is confusing value (run defender vs pass rusher) with ease of drafting.

[Wildabeast88]

On November 16, 2016 at 11:11 AM, rmcjacket23 said:

As is usually the case, most fans judge a draft class based on their first couple picks. If you whiff on your 1st rounder like we did, most fans say the draft was a failure.

We got three starters out of that draft class, and all three of them are arguably among the best at their individual positions in football.

I agree I was being sarcastic for all the people who crush Ozzie. It was a solid class unfortunately for us from round 3 on was good just not the 1st and 2nd. 

[Wildabeast88]

9 hours ago, VermontRaven said:

10 hours ago, terrynjulia03 said:

Ok so I did a bit of research in relation to BWill and FA. The current teams that run a 3-4 are Cleve, Buff, SD,GB, AZ, Indy, KC, Jets, Niners, Pitt, Houston, Den, Chi, Oak and Tenn. 

Of those teams only Buff, SD, AZ, KC, Houston, Den, and Oak have DTs in FA this offseason. The only starters are SD, KC, Houston, Den and Oak. So that's only 5 teams that potentially need a NT. You can wipe SD off the list as Lissmore isn't even on their roster, or may be IRd doesn't say. AZ has Ruckers, who plays a role similar to Jerrigan for them but Peters is their starting NT so more than likely no interest there. Houston has Willfork, who is prob gone but they just drafted the kid from Clemson who has been splitting snaps, you'd imagine they'll use the money elsewhere and go with their draft pick moving forward. 

Which leaves only KC, Oak and Denver as potential suitors. KC has Poe with 39 tackles 1 sack and 1 FF. AND they drafted him pretty high. Oak has McGee with 14 tackles, 2.5 sacks and 2 FF. He's only making 500k so maybe a diamond in the rough dude or they got him off someone else's PS. Than you have Den with Williams 20 tackles 1 sack whom they also drafted pretty high given his 1.8M salary this year. 

Conversely BWill has 23 tackles and 1 sack. Basically the point is, the "open market" isn't going to go crazy. I'm betting he stays on a pretty cap friendly contract. None of those teams have crazy cap space and need a upgrade, they'll be bargaining just to keep their own player. 

 

Raiders have 42 mil in cap space Broncos have 38 mil. 

[JoeyFlex5]

14 hours ago, VermontRaven said:

I agree.  I think the Ravens will make a decent offer to Williams, but not overpay him.  I would guess somewhere between 5-7M/year is what Ravens will offer.  However, if he demands 8-10 on the open market, I can't see us paying him that.  I definitely think the Ravens will "try" to retain him, much like they did with KO.  There is no denying that Williams and Pierce is an awesome combination, and if we can preserve that for a few more years, that would be awesome...but the price has to be right.  Ozzie will not overpay, especially on the Dline, where he has a history of finding gems (drafted and undrafted)

basically this is how i feel. i said i personally would think an offer of around 3.5mil is what i would offer, because i simply dont place much value on a primarily run stopping NT when we could very possibly have the next man up already on the team for a small fraction of that price.  

if the ravens offered 5mil and he stayed, i wouldnt mind at all, im just talking about where i personally place value on a NT would be slightly less. and yes i think we do offer him something in that 4-6 range but he gets an absurdly higher offer on the market.

[JoeyFlex5]

8 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

On the topic of whether or not it's hard to find run defenders, I think Joey is confusing value (run defender vs pass rusher) with ease of drafting.

im not confusing things, just going off of our history as a team. whether we draft them, sign them as UDFA, or get young camp cuts or PS guys moving up, we always seem to churn out run stuffing machines at multiple positions. i dont see any reason to not believe in the system in that regard, that is the ONE area where we can afford to pinch pennies to give us breathing room elsewhere, we cant afford to spare expenses literally anywhere else on the team.

[BmoreBird22]

38 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

im not confusing things, just going off of our history as a team. whether we draft them, sign them as UDFA, or get young camp cuts or PS guys moving up, we always seem to churn out run stuffing machines at multiple positions. i dont see any reason to not believe in the system in that regard, that is the ONE area where we can afford to pinch pennies to give us breathing room elsewhere, we cant afford to spare expenses literally anywhere else on the team.

I think they were talking about it as a league wide issue, not the Ravens only.