[News] Late For Work 11/8: Justin Tucker Livid About Obvious Missed Call On MNF

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Ravens open as heavy 10-point favorites, but are wary of Browns. Cleveland sticking with rookie Cody Kessler as starting QB. Jernigan shows he’s a quick learner and has sense of humor. Smith and Young make best cornerback duo in some time. Powers looked like a kid tackling a man.

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[rmcjacket23]

Tucker can be livid about the rule all he wants, but the enforcement of it was correct.

The burden falls on the officials for not stopping the play dead once Sherman is blatantly offsides. You can't wait for him to clear the holder and dive at the kicker before blowing your whistle.

[MileHighMiracle12]

Tucker can be livid about the rule all he wants, but the enforcement of it was correct.

The burden falls on the officials for not stopping the play dead once Sherman is blatantly offsides. You can't wait for him to clear the holder and dive at the kicker before blowing your whistle.

Well... they can throw more than one penalty flag on the same play. I can't tell for sure, but it didn't look like he blocked the ball, he just took the kickers legs out after the kick, which would be roughing.

[rmcjacket23]

3 minutes ago, MileHighMiracle12 said:

Well... they can throw more than one penalty flag on the same play. I can't tell for sure, but it didn't look like he blocked the ball, he just took the kickers legs out after the kick, which would be roughing.

Actually they can't throw a roughing the kicker penalty on a play they blew dead, which is what they ultimately did.

They can call unncessary roughness (as Dean Blandino referenced), but that implies that they think Sherman intentionally dove with the intent of taking the kicker out and not at the ball.

He's clearly going for the block based on his body angle. The problem with calling unncessary roughness is that it implies that Sherman should have just stopped playing because he knew he was offsides.

He's waiting for the whistle to stop play. When the whistle comes too late, this is what happens.

[Bat-mite]

So thrilled to get a win Sunday, especially against Pittsburgh. My dad's funeral was Monday morning, so I felt like that one was for him.

[stixfix69]

So thrilled to get a win Sunday, especially against Pittsburgh. My dad's funeral was Monday morning, so I felt like that one was for him.

Sorry for you loss.....

[MileHighMiracle12]

  17 minutes ago, MileHighMiracle12 said:

Well... they can throw more than one penalty flag on the same play. I can't tell for sure, but it didn't look like he blocked the ball, he just took the kickers legs out after the kick, which would be roughing.

Actually they can't throw a roughing the kicker penalty on a play they blew dead, which is what they ultimately did.

They can call unncessary roughness (as Dean Blandino referenced), but that implies that they think Sherman intentionally dove with the intent of taking the kicker out and not at the ball.

He's clearly going for the block based on his body angle. The problem with calling unncessary roughness is that it implies that Sherman should have just stopped playing because he knew he was offsides.

He's waiting for the whistle to stop play. When the whistle comes too late, this is what happens.

Thanks for the explanation. I think what is confusing is the timing of the whole play.

I've rewatched it several times and the whistles don't blow until after he has already taken out the kicker. It seems strange that they wouldn't be allowed to call roughing the kicker when it happened before the whistles blew the play dead... but I guess the rules don't always make sense.

[rmcjacket23]

2 minutes ago, MileHighMiracle12 said:

Thanks for the explanation. I think what is confusing is the timing of the whole play.

I've rewatched it several times and the whistles don't blow until after he has already taken out the kicker. It seems strange that they wouldn't be allowed to call roughing the kicker when it happened before the whistles blew the play dead... but I guess the rules don't always make sense.

Right and so the issue falls on the officials. Typically when a defensive player is blatantly offsides, they blow the play dead, partially for this very reason... to protect offensive players who stop playing when they hear the whistle. 

We see often that they let plays "continue" when a player is offsides, but its typically not anywhere near as blatant as this one was... he was well into the backfield before the ball is even snapped.

The not being able to call roughing the kicker penalty makes sense if you really think about it, because I don't believe they are allowed to call roughing the passer on a play that was blown dead. 

So like if its a false start or offsides, the play is blown dead, and a defender still rushes in and slams a QB to the ground, its not roughing the passer... its unnecessary roughness. The penalty is the same in terms of yardage so its typically a moot point, but once the play is blown dead, I don't think the position of the player being hit matters. Its the same penalty for all players, regardless of position.

[Wildwest Raven]

Lets lock down first place Thursday night!!..Offense, I still have hope for you, defense drop the hammer on'em..when the Steelers get beat Sunday we will gain mucho swag and rule the North.

[sami]

Ive looked at that play where Sherman is off sides several times and its clear to me Sherman isn't going after the ball, hes going after the kickers legs. Maybe his coach read the rulebook and saw where its ok to slam into the kicker if your off sides.

[TheConquerorWorm]

Tucker can be livid about the rule all he wants, but the enforcement of it was correct.

The burden falls on the officials for not stopping the play dead once Sherman is blatantly offsides. You can't wait for him to clear the holder and dive at the kicker before blowing your whistle.

No it's not. Dean Blandino (President of NFL Officiating) said it's a foul and should be called. If the contact happens after the whistle whether that's microseconds or not, it's a penalty. Even in the NFL rulebook it states, "If in doubt about a roughness call or potentially dangerous tactics, the covering official(s) should always call unnecessary roughness."

[Minionhunter]

  49 minutes ago, MileHighMiracle12 said:

Thanks for the explanation. I think what is confusing is the timing of the whole play.

I've rewatched it several times and the whistles don't blow until after he has already taken out the kicker. It seems strange that they wouldn't be allowed to call roughing the kicker when it happened before the whistles blew the play dead... but I guess the rules don't always make sense.

Right and so the issue falls on the officials. Typically when a defensive player is blatantly offsides, they blow the play dead, partially for this very reason... to protect offensive players who stop playing when they hear the whistle. 

We see often that they let plays "continue" when a player is offsides, but its typically not anywhere near as blatant as this one was... he was well into the backfield before the ball is even snapped.

The not being able to call roughing the kicker penalty makes sense if you really think about it, because I don't believe they are allowed to call roughing the passer on a play that was blown dead. 

So like if its a false start or offsides, the play is blown dead, and a defender still rushes in and slams a QB to the ground, its not roughing the passer... its unnecessary roughness. The penalty is the same in terms of yardage so its typically a moot point, but once the play is blown dead, I don't think the position of the player being hit matters. Its the same penalty for all players, regardless of position.

Thank you.

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, TheConquerorWorm said:

No it's not. Dean Blandino (President of NFL Officiating) said it's a foul and should be called. If the contact happens after the whistle whether that's microseconds or not, it's a penalty. Even in the NFL rulebook it states, "If in doubt about a roughness call or potentially dangerous tactics, the covering official(s) should always call unnecessary roughness."

Well, as is the case with just about every rule in the rulebook, it is inherently subjective. Its great to say that even if its late contact microseconds after the whistle is blown that a penalty SHOULD be called, but that's not really practical, because human beings don't have the ability to judge that in microseconds, which is why you see penalties that some people think are "late" non-called on a weekly basis.

In this case, I'm fine with the no-call, particularly when Sherman's contact is largely driven by the officials error in no blowing the play dead in time to avoid the contact. If I'm Sherman, I'm certainly no risking injury to myself to make a split second change in course in order to avoid contact that the officials didn't attempt to stop. 

Again, there's the subjective "letter of the law" and then there's the practical enforcement of such rules in real time. Its why I always laugh off these post-game analysis of penalties enforced or not enforced, because they are utterly meaningless. 

[Crusader]

  1 hour ago, MileHighMiracle12 said:

Well... they can throw more than one penalty flag on the same play. I can't tell for sure, but it didn't look like he blocked the ball, he just took the kickers legs out after the kick, which would be roughing.

Actually they can't throw a roughing the kicker penalty on a play they blew dead, which is what they ultimately did.

They can call unncessary roughness (as Dean Blandino referenced), but that implies that they think Sherman intentionally dove with the intent of taking the kicker out and not at the ball.

He's clearly going for the block based on his body angle. The problem with calling unncessary roughness is that it implies that Sherman should have just stopped playing because he knew he was offsides.

He's waiting for the whistle to stop play. When the whistle comes too late, this is what happens.

"Actually they can't throw a roughing the kicker penalty on a play they blew dead," That don't make no sense. SO if they blow the play dead before he kicks it than you can take the QB head off before he throws it after the they blow it dead?

[BmoreRavensFan4Eva]

That was a good non-call by the officials. Look at Sherman's left hand. He touched the ball before his left shoulder made contact with the kicker's knee. If anything, the ref should've blew the whistle for being lined up offside before the snap.

[JD08]

Yall really arguing over this lol, has nothing to do with the Ravens besides the Bills losing...I'm sure they will make the correct call in the future

[craymonham]

Try that against the patriots and see what happens.

[PersianRaven]

So thrilled to get a win Sunday, especially against Pittsburgh. My dad's funeral was Monday morning, so I felt like that one was for him.

Accept my condolences! :(

[objective view]

Here we go again hyping up Jimmy Smith but it is funny how PFF does not see it that way. His weekly ratings including last week are not top of the list at all ....

[rmcjacket23]

50 minutes ago, Crusader said:

"Actually they can't throw a roughing the kicker penalty on a play they blew dead," That don't make no sense. SO if they blow the play dead before he kicks it than you can take the QB head off before he throws it after the they blow it dead?

They can call unnecessary roughness, not roughing the kicker. They are two different penalties, though they yield the same yardage enforcement.

If you took the QBs head off very late after the play was blown dead, you wouldn't get a roughing the passer penalty... you would get an unnecessary roughness penalty.

Same thing as a late hit out of bounds. 

[Tdot.to.Bmore]

  1 hour ago, Crusader said:

"Actually they can't throw a roughing the kicker penalty on a play they blew dead," That don't make no sense. SO if they blow the play dead before he kicks it than you can take the QB head off before he throws it after the they blow it dead?

They can call unnecessary roughness, not roughing the kicker. They are two different penalties, though they yield the same yardage enforcement.

If you took the QBs head off very late after the play was blown dead, you wouldn't get a roughing the passer penalty... you would get an unnecessary roughness penalty.

Same thing as a late hit out of bounds. 

i think most ppl here are just confused on how you can argue that the hit was ok because of a technicality. You said you were ok with the no-call??? Thats just crazy lol. Sometimes its ok to be wrong my friend and just accept it.

[rmcjacket23]

3 minutes ago, Tdot.to.Bmore said:

i think most ppl here are just confused on how you can argue that the hit was ok because of a technicality. You said you were ok with the no-call??? Thats just crazy lol. Sometimes its ok to be wrong my friend and just accept it.

LOL, I'm not arguing the hit was OK because of a technicality... the people that are arguing that he should have been flagged for it are arguing that based on a technicality. 

I have zero issue with the hit or not calling a penalty on the hit. Why? Quite simple really... I have simply no earthly idea what anybody really thinks Sherman should have or even could have done differently there. He's clear of the holder by the time the whistle is blown. You're committed at that point.

This isn't the Matrix and Sherman isn't Neo. He's not stopping his progression or his body within a second of impact because he hears a whistle. Just not realistic for somebody to expect him to do that. 

Having been around these boards long enough, I can also say for 100% certainty that if Sherman played for the Ravens, it would be unanimous that it shouldn't be a penalty, and if Tucker were the kicker, it would be unanimous that it should be. The only differences here are the jerseys they are wearing.

If you don't want that play to happen, blow the whistle when its time to blow the whistle. Don't wait until he's 3-4 yards into the backfield to try to stop progression of fully grown, highly athletic athletes. Its not happening. 

[caw710]

This absolutely is a personal foul, You can call it unnecessary roughness, or roughing the kicker, that doesn't matter. It's still 15 yards and an auto first down.
Letting this call stand is going to put a target on every field goal kicker in the league. What a really stupid call by the officials.

[TheConquerorWorm]

  2 hours ago, TheConquerorWorm said:

No it's not. Dean Blandino (President of NFL Officiating) said it's a foul and should be called. If the contact happens after the whistle whether that's microseconds or not, it's a penalty. Even in the NFL rulebook it states, "If in doubt about a roughness call or potentially dangerous tactics, the covering official(s) should always call unnecessary roughness."

Well, as is the case with just about every rule in the rulebook, it is inherently subjective. Its great to say that even if its late contact microseconds after the whistle is blown that a penalty SHOULD be called, but that's not really practical, because human beings don't have the ability to judge that in microseconds, which is why you see penalties that some people think are "late" non-called on a weekly basis.

In this case, I'm fine with the no-call, particularly when Sherman's contact is largely driven by the officials error in no blowing the play dead in time to avoid the contact. If I'm Sherman, I'm certainly no risking injury to myself to make a split second change in course in order to avoid contact that the officials didn't attempt to stop. 

Again, there's the subjective "letter of the law" and then there's the practical enforcement of such rules in real time. Its why I always laugh off these post-game analysis of penalties enforced or not enforced, because they are utterly meaningless. 

Which is why the rule states if there is any doubt or controversy, call the penalty. It's specifically written that way to cover "subjective" plays like this that happen in "real time". When in doubt, call the penalty. It's a note at the end of almost all rules in the NFL rule book.

It doesn't matter when the officials blow the play dead - you can't hit the kicker, just like you can't hit a guy out of bounds - whether before, after or during the whistle - the whistle has zero bearing on the penalty. On top of that, Sherman is the one committing the initial foul - he knew he was offsides, whistle or not and proceeded to dive at the kicker. No one is suggesting he try to change his trajectory or "pull up" but that's still no excuse. Regardless of the reasons why, it still happened, and its a penalty. Period. The NFL confirmed it.

[MileHighMiracle12]

  29 minutes ago, Tdot.to.Bmore said:

i think most ppl here are just confused on how you can argue that the hit was ok because of a technicality. You said you were ok with the no-call??? Thats just crazy lol. Sometimes its ok to be wrong my friend and just accept it.

LOL, I'm not arguing the hit was OK because of a technicality... the people that are arguing that he should have been flagged for it are arguing that based on a technicality. 

I have zero issue with the hit or not calling a penalty on the hit. Why? Quite simple really... I have simply no earthly idea what anybody really thinks Sherman should have or even could have done differently there. He's clear of the holder by the time the whistle is blown. You're committed at that point.

This isn't the Matrix and Sherman isn't Neo. He's not stopping his progression or his body within a second of impact because he hears a whistle. Just not realistic for somebody to expect him to do that. 

Having been around these boards long enough, I can also say for 100% certainty that if Sherman played for the Ravens, it would be unanimous that it shouldn't be a penalty, and if Tucker were the kicker, it would be unanimous that it should be. The only differences here are the jerseys they are wearing.

If you don't want that play to happen, blow the whistle when its time to blow the whistle. Don't wait until he's 3-4 yards into the backfield to try to stop progression of fully grown, highly athletic athletes. Its not happening. 

The first audible whistle on the TV broadcast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxiKnrUK_6o) happens well after Sherman hits the kicker.

[rossihunter2]

1 hour ago, objective view said:

Here we go again hyping up Jimmy Smith but it is funny how PFF does not see it that way. His weekly ratings including last week are not top of the list at all ....

pff is certainly not the be all and end all of rating players - it is one helpful tool

[Tdot.to.Bmore]

  2 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

  2 hours ago, TheConquerorWorm said:

No it's not. Dean Blandino (President of NFL Officiating) said it's a foul and should be called. If the contact happens after the whistle whether that's microseconds or not, it's a penalty. Even in the NFL rulebook it states, "If in doubt about a roughness call or potentially dangerous tactics, the covering official(s) should always call unnecessary roughness."

Well, as is the case with just about every rule in the rulebook, it is inherently subjective. Its great to say that even if its late contact microseconds after the whistle is blown that a penalty SHOULD be called, but that's not really practical, because human beings don't have the ability to judge that in microseconds, which is why you see penalties that some people think are "late" non-called on a weekly basis.

In this case, I'm fine with the no-call, particularly when Sherman's contact is largely driven by the officials error in no blowing the play dead in time to avoid the contact. If I'm Sherman, I'm certainly no risking injury to myself to make a split second change in course in order to avoid contact that the officials didn't attempt to stop. 

Again, there's the subjective "letter of the law" and then there's the practical enforcement of such rules in real time. Its why I always laugh off these post-game analysis of penalties enforced or not enforced, because they are utterly meaningless. 

Which is why the rule states if there is any doubt or controversy, call the penalty. It's specifically written that way to cover "subjective" plays like this that happen in "real time". When in doubt, call the penalty. It's a note at the end of almost all rules in the NFL rule book.

It doesn't matter when the officials blow the play dead - you can't hit the kicker, just like you can't hit a guy out of bounds - whether before, after or during the whistle - the whistle has zero bearing on the penalty. On top of that, Sherman is the one committing the initial foul - he knew he was offsides, whistle or not and proceeded to dive at the kicker. No one is suggesting he try to change his trajectory or "pull up" but that's still no excuse. Regardless of the reasons why, it still happened, and its a penalty. Period. The NFL confirmed it.

Isnt it funny, that the NFL confirms it was a missed call but then you have ppl argue otherwise lol. That is just foolish. There's no point in arguing with those types.

[rmcjacket23]

5 minutes ago, TheConquerorWorm said:

Which is why the rule states if there is any doubt or controversy, call the penalty. It's specifically written that way to cover "subjective" plays like this that happen in "real time". When in doubt, call the penalty. It's a note at the end of almost all rules in the NFL rule book.

It doesn't matter when the officials blow the play dead - you can't hit the kicker, just like you can't hit a guy out of bounds - whether before, after or during the whistle - the whistle has zero bearing on the penalty. On top of that, Sherman is the one committing the initial foul - he knew he was offsides, whistle or not and proceeded to dive at the kicker. No one is suggesting he try to change his trajectory or "pull up" but that's still no excuse. Regardless of the reasons why, it still happened, and its a penalty. Period. The NFL confirmed it.

1. Actually, you can hit a kicker. There are many, many instances where its perfectly legal to make contact with a kicker or a punter. Anytime you make contact with a football in an attempt to block a kick you are legally allowed to make contact with a kicker. You saw a textbook example of this in Sunday's Ravens game. Assuming you've watched games, you've also seen countless examples of players making contact with kickers, having a flag thrown, and then having that flag be picked up because the contact is deemed incidental or a player is blocked into a kicker by his own teammates. All perfectly legal plays.

2. The comparison to hitting a guy out of bounds is vastly different, because there's a boundary for out of bound... there is no imaginary boundary surrounding a kicker. 

3. The notion that Sherman shouldn't have hit the guy because he "knew he was offsides" is horrific logic, mostly because that implies that every player should give up on the play everytime they know they are committing a penalty. There's probably an instance in every single game where a player is offsides and the refs don't make the call... so should the player just give up on the play because he thinks he might have been offsides? Obviously not... he plays until somebody tells him to stop playing. That's how football is taught at every possible level.

4. No, actually, its not a penalty. Going back and saying it should have been afterwards doesn't actually make it a penalty. That's prototypical hindsight analysis... the ability to slow things down in replay for hours after hours once the play is over and then determine what the right action should have been with all the information you couldn't possibly have in real time.

Its simply hindsight, irrelevant analysis. It doesn't and won't change anything.

So from now until the end of time, there will NOT be a penalty for unnecessary roughness on that play. That's not a subjective statement... its an objective statement. Its fixed. It doesn't matter what somebody says happened afterwards or what should have happened. What happened is what actually happened. 

[rmcjacket23]

8 minutes ago, Tdot.to.Bmore said:

Isnt it funny, that the NFL confirms it was a missed call but then you have ppl argue otherwise lol. That is just foolish. There's no point in arguing with those types.

Isn't irrelevant hindsight analysis fun?

I always enjoy when ex-NFL officials who used to work for the NFL and were taught the same rules as the current NFL officials and rules interpreters completely disagree with the NFL's hilarious "confirmations" of missed calls. Because, you know, the NFL is just a model of consistency and never botch things. All those very clear, concise rules like what a catch is... yeah we should just treat those like they're objective too. LOL.

Somebody put another quarter in the merry-go-round...

Do you guys really not understand the entire rule book in any sporting environment is 100% about interpretation and subjectivity?

[Dedicated Raven]

I like the way Tavon Young is playing and think it should be his job to lose now.