2017 WR prospect thread

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, rossihunter2 said:

too slow to take him before the 5th round now i think

Agreed, those are undrafted numbers. Still love how he catches the ball though

[allblackraven]

4 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Davis can not catch the ball like williams, not even close. Davis has More concentration drops and williams in tight coverage is up there with guys like dez and Julio and fitz, he is unstoppable and routes can improve with coaching, vice grip hands and body control and tenacity can't be coached

The thing with those two guys - pipe dreams most likely.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

9 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

 

How come? Davis can do everything Williams can plus he's faster on tape and runs better routes. 

Williams has that unstoppable factor. Some of the catches on his tape im watching and like.... ok no way he can come down with it in that triple coverage while getting absolutely blasted by the safety... then the dust clears and there he is with the football.

He just doesnt need to do all of those things (at least hasnt yet). Hes never covered. His body control and hands are unreal. Has that Dez, Julio, Green, Nuk thing going for him where when you need a play, and the defense even know you need a play and are going to him -- he still makes the play.

Plus, hes done it against the best. Time and time again. All the top DB's that everyone loves in this draft; that everyone says are Day 1 starters and potential pro bowlers -- Williams has beat. Sometimes easily.

 

And Williams may have looked like a faster better route runner on tape if the majority of his tape was against the level of competition Davis faced. Our perceptions are often based on a comparison to what we see around the player. Easier to jump off the screen, easier to look faster, smoother, etc... against lesser athletes.

Davis may have a higher ceiling bc hes more advanced in some of the technical stuff while having the same, if not better, physical measurements.... but hes also got the lower floor having not been challenged much by a high level of competition.

Williams not only produced against the best -- he got better in the biggest moments. To me -- thats huge and may be the biggest distinction. Some guys just get better and better, the better/harder the competition is and the brighter the lights get. 

[rossihunter2]

as much of a fan of davis as ive been throughout this whole process, and i still think he's the better prospect over williams, i still have them right next to each other on the big board at the 8th and 9th spots - if either of them is there and barnett has not fallen then they will be the pick - whichever one... either one improves us immensely in slightly different ways and we'd be privileged to have them - i just wanted to put that out there because i dont know about everyone else (although i suspect it's the same) but i think they are close enough that i can get behind either of them coming to baltimore at 16 and i dont feel that strongly about which one

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

5 minutes ago, rossihunter2 said:

as much of a fan of davis as ive been throughout this whole process, and i still think he's the better prospect over williams, i still have them right next to each other on the big board at the 8th and 9th spots - if either of them is there and barnett has not fallen then they will be the pick - whichever one... either one improves us immensely in slightly different ways and we'd be privileged to have them - i just wanted to put that out there because i dont know about everyone else (although i suspect it's the same) but i think they are close enough that i can get behind either of them coming to baltimore at 16 and i dont feel that strongly about which one

I'd be excited about either (depending on who else we may have passed up) but i dont have them quite that close.

With Williams id feel 100% confident we just added our Mike Evans, Dez Bryant, Deandre Hopkins etc... Davis id be optimistic that we drafted someone who could eventually have an Andre Johnson type impact.

Both great... but id feel certain about the former, and hopeful about the latter.

[rossihunter2]

3 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I'd be excited about either (depending on who else we may have passed up) but i dont have them quite that close.

With Williams id feel 100% confident we just added our Mike Evans, Dez Bryant, Deandre Hopkins etc... Davis id be optimistic that we drafted someone who could eventually have an Andre Johnson type impact.

Both great... but id feel certain about the former, and hopeful about the latter.

i have worries about both - if mike williams came in, ill admit that there would be a part of me that would worry about his lack of route diversity and lack of hands-catching until he started blowing up teams - with davis id worry about the level of competition and concentration drops (like perriman had in college)

i think ill worry about both of them more if we end up taking them just because i feel like we are always unlucky with these things so until it turns out good ill fear the worst - yet if they both end up on different teams i have 100% confidence that both of them will develop into stars

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, allblackraven said:

The thing with those two guys - pipe dreams most likely.

Agreed. Williams is probably a top 10 pick and I wouldn't be surprised to see him top 5, Davis is a hell of a talent and probably goes early, maybe not top 10 and he very well could be available, but even then I'm not sure the ravens take him.

i just can't find any way to justify williams falling to 16, id be blatantly manipulating a mock to fit my wants. And if Davis goes first that doesn't really help our chances because someone's still gonna take williams. 

[ravensnation5220]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Davis can not catch the ball like williams, not even close. Davis has More concentration drops and williams in tight coverage is up there with guys like dez and Julio and fitz, he is unstoppable and routes can improve with coaching, vice grip hands and body control and tenacity can't be coached

Not even close? When I see Davis catch I see a natural hands catcher. Williams tends to let the ball into his body a bit as well as body catching, doesn't always extend his arms all the way out  and double catches pretty often as well. Idk what your looking at, Davis has pulled off some pretty remarkable catches of his own

I'm ok with a few concentration drops by Davis when he catches 100+ balls in 4 straight season lol. 

Another factor is character and I'm not sure Williams is the brightest of the bunch while Davis is very level headed and seems to take his education seriously and is a senior who finished his degree which is important to us believe it or not

The only way I see Williams being ranked higher is if davis' foot injury is really worrisome. 

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Williams has that unstoppable factor. Some of the catches on his tape im watching and like.... ok no way he can come down with it in that triple coverage while getting absolutely blasted by the safety... then the dust clears and there he is with the football.

He just doesnt need to do all of those things (at least hasnt yet). Hes never covered. His body control and hands are unreal. Has that Dez, Julio, Green, Nuk thing going for him where when you need a play, and the defense even know you need a play and are going to him -- he still makes the play.

Plus, hes done it against the best. Time and time again. All the top DB's that everyone loves in this draft; that everyone says are Day 1 starters and potential pro bowlers -- Williams has beat. Sometimes easily.

 

And Williams may have looked like a faster better route runner on tape if the majority of his tape was against the level of competition Davis faced. Our perceptions are often based on a comparison to what we see around the player. Easier to jump off the screen, easier to look faster, smoother, etc... against lesser athletes.. 

When did Williams go up in triple coverage and get leveled by a safety and come down with the ball? Never saw that play 

And who did he beat time and time again? Humphrey is really the only guy he beat and that was only one play. Which he had to double catch

Im not worried about the level of competition for Davis because when you go against guys like that you want to stand out like he did. He was consistent and he really just made himself seem like he was on another level and that's what you want to see against competition like that. The way he runs his routes and the ways he gets separation will translate to the next level. Don't focus so much on who they play and focus on whether or not they can play. When you go up against better competition it should seem even and when you go up against lesser competition you should be completely dominant which Davis did. 

Davis is just the all around better player. Williams has just played in bigger games with better talent. However he creates no separation and is just a jump ball expert with run after the catch ability. Davis is all this and more. 

[ravensnation5220]

If you guys don't believe me on Davis vs Williams just watch voch lumbardis breakdown of both. Especially Williams. Williams will struggle initially in the NFL with the size, strength and confidence of NFL corners. He's way to raw and it will take him some time. 

[BmoreBird22]

6 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

If you guys don't believe me on Davis vs Williams just watch voch lumbardis breakdown of both. Especially Williams. Williams will struggle initially in the NFL with the size, strength and confidence of NFL corners. He's way to raw and it will take him some time. 

I thought Mike Evans would struggle early in the NFL because he had a backyard style offense and wasn't a route runner at all. Yet, somehow, size and speed won out and he lit it up in his rookie season.

Williams has natural talents that are going to be very difficult to defend.

[ravensnation5220]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

I thought Mike Evans would struggle early in the NFL because he had a backyard style offense and wasn't a route runner at all. Yet, somehow, size and speed won out and he lit it up in his rookie season.

Williams has natural talents that are going to be very difficult to defend.

I don't see Williams as the same as Evans. Evans was a sure top 10 pick. I see Williams as a top 15. Plus Mike Evans was enormous coming out at 6'5 231 so you couldn't really press him. Williams is 6,4 218 so he's a bit lighter and I didn't see him fight off press as much on tape. 

[Davesta]

Man I really like JuJu smith with our 2nd. If we don't go Corey Davis or mike Williams with our first, I hope he's our 2nd round target. I don't know what his value is though. Might be too high in Ozzie' eye. Allen Robinson all over again 

[JoeyFlex5]

38 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

Not even close? When I see Davis catch I see a natural hands catcher. Williams tends to let the ball into his body a bit as well as body catching, doesn't always extend his arms all the way out  and double catches pretty often as well. Idk what your looking at, Davis has pulled off some pretty remarkable catches of his own

I'm ok with a few concentration drops by Davis when he catches 100+ balls in 4 straight season lol. 

Another factor is character and I'm not sure Williams is the brightest of the bunch while Davis is very level headed and seems to take his education seriously and is a senior who finished his degree which is important to us believe it or not

The only way I see Williams being ranked higher is if davis' foot injury is really worrisome. 

When did Williams go up in triple coverage and get leveled by a safety and come down with the ball? Never saw that play 

And who did he beat time and time again? Humphrey is really the only guy he beat and that was only one play. Which he had to double catch

Im not worried about the level of competition for Davis because when you go against guys like that you want to stand out like he did. He was consistent and he really just made himself seem like he was on another level and that's what you want to see against competition like that. The way he runs his routes and the ways he gets separation will translate to the next level. Don't focus so much on who they play and focus on whether or not they can play. When you go up against better competition it should seem even and when you go up against lesser competition you should be completely dominant which Davis did. 

Davis is just the all around better player. Williams has just played in bigger games with better talent. However he creates no separation and is just a jump ball expert with run after the catch ability. Davis is all this and more. 

A lot of big bodied receivers let the ball into their body because they can more effectively shield and secure the ball, Michael Irvin and TO were 2 guys who did it often, that doesn't mean he isn't a hands catcher. And Davis simply doesn't make the same catches that williams does, if you say he does you are flat out making stuff up to back your claims. Davis is excellent in his own right, but he had a fair share of manufactured production from bubble screens and a large majority of his catches were routine, not to discredit him because he worked himself open so well, but he hasn't made anywhere near the kinds of jaw dropping tight coverage catches williams has. Davis also has shown far less tenacity to the ball and waits for it to come to him, a big problem for NFL receivers and something williams does the exact opposite of. 

Honestly I don't know where you are seeing that Davis bodies up as well as mike Williams, I have watched every game of both of them on draft breakdown and more, and have never once seen a catch that would lead anyone to think he can fight for tightly contested catches as well as williams.

[BmoreBird22]

38 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

I don't see Williams as the same as Evans. Evans was a sure top 10 pick. I see Williams as a top 15. Plus Mike Evans was enormous coming out at 6'5 231 so you couldn't really press him. Williams is 6,4 218 so he's a bit lighter and I didn't see him fight off press as much on tape. 

I was more saying that being raw in routes isn't always bad when you're that big.

[JoeyFlex5]

3 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I was more saying that being raw in routes isn't always bad when you're that big.

I wasn't big on Evans because of the way he lumbered around the field. Dude looked like Crockett gillmore out there, it worked for him though, I always preferred ODB in that draft. Williams is a lot less lumbering and really when it comes to highpointing he does it as well as Evans, he's just less powerful, doesn't mean he's a slouch in that department either as Evans is a freak of nature

[ravensnation5220]

21 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

A lot of big bodied receivers let the ball into their body because they can more effectively shield and secure the ball, Michael Irvin and TO were 2 guys who did it often, that doesn't mean he isn't a hands catcher. And Davis simply doesn't make the same catches that williams does, if you say he does you are flat out making stuff up to back your claims. Davis is excellent in his own right, but he had a fair share of manufactured production from bubble screens and a large majority of his catches were routine, not to discredit him because he worked himself open so well, but he hasn't made anywhere near the kinds of jaw dropping tight coverage catches williams has. Davis also has shown far less tenacity to the ball and waits for it to come to him, a big problem for NFL receivers and something williams does the exact opposite of. 

Honestly I don't know where you are seeing that Davis bodies up as well as mike Williams, I have watched every game of both of them on draft breakdown and more, and have never once seen a catch that would lead anyone to think he can fight for tightly contested catches as well as williams.

I didnt mean he does it as well but he does make tough contested catches on tape. Wisconsin is one that comes to mind and there are others toward the right side of the end zone where he goes up and over the corner to make a play on the ball. Maybe not as often as Williams but you do see it on tape. I wouldn't make that stuff up. But yes Williams does it better than anyone in the country. At 6'3 Davis is no slouch in this department however. 

[JoeyFlex5]

13 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

I didnt mean he does it as well but he does make tough contested catches on tape. Wisconsin is one that comes to mind and there are others toward the right side of the end zone where he goes up and over the corner to make a play on the ball. Maybe not as often as Williams but you do see it on tape. I wouldn't make that stuff up. But yes Williams does it better than anyone in the country. At 6'3 Davis is no slouch in this department however. 

And I never said Davis can't do it either, but there's being capable, and then there's being elite. Davis is an elite route runner, no argument from me, but as far as being able to catch a ball regardless of the situation he just can't do it like williams, there's much more to it than height, tommy streeter was 6'5 and couldn't make a contested catch because he had no ball tracking, body control, or tenacity. Davis has ball tracking and body but he lacks that fierce tenacity that williams has, which is what separates the Stephen hills and tommy streeters from the mike Evans' and dez Bryants. It's a trait that's not quantifiable and not coachable, williams has it and Davis doesn't. 

With williams and Davis it could very much come down to preference, do you want an elite route runner who can get open and break a few catch-and-runs? Or do you want a guy who strikes fear into the secondary because no matter how tightly covered he may be he still has a damn good chance to posterize your db and make a game changer. I'm fine either way, but I do prefer williams because I've grown to learn that flaccos lack of timing and tendency to break his targets stride means that Davis would be limited here, the YAC wouldn't come easy for him and that's a lot of his game. If flaccos passes are gonna be caught and the receiver hits the ground there, might as well get a guy who is gonna make that catch regardless of coverage. 

Davis will be more reliant on precise timing and play design, williams will produce far more independent of other factors

[ravensnation5220]

@JoeyFlex5 fair enough I see where your coming from. I would agree on your part in that case that Williams would be a better fit for us. I'm just not sure our FO will fall in love with the person enough. If he falls which I think could be possible depending how other teams view the receivers. 

[Static]

Whats the chance we can get JuJu Smith with our 2nd?

[rossihunter2]

18 minutes ago, Static said:

Whats the chance we can get JuJu Smith with our 2nd?

pretty high i think - but im not sure he'll be the BPA when we get there - i see him as being a tweener for our 2nd and 3rd round pick - not quite good enough for one and gone before the other

[RaineV1]

6 hours ago, allblackraven said:

The thing with those two guys - pipe dreams most likely.

I think Davis could drop to us thanks to Ross rising. If Ross is the 2nd receiver taken, then Davis likely slides since not as many top teams need WRs this year.

[rossihunter2]

3 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

I think Davis could drop to us thanks to Ross rising. If Ross is the 2nd receiver taken, then Davis likely slides since not as many top teams need WRs this year.

i just did a mock - i might do a post tomorrow - where davis slid to us without ross going in the top 16

on a side note about mocks: i always find it hard mocking to other teams sometimes because there are so many seemingly left field media picks that i would love to happen because they drop guys i have valued higher on my big board but i cant justify in my head because i dont see why it happens lol - like ive seen taco charlton mocked ahead of our pick a lot but i dont see it so i didnt mock him there but in my head i wonder whether he will go and push back yet more great prospects to us... i always find myself maybe forcing 1 pick but all it would take is a team falling in love with ross or charlton or peppers or lamp or humphrey or bolles or any of the qbs and we end up with even more choices than we all initially envisioned - we are so stuck as a board in our valuations of players for the ravens that its hard to justify different valuations for other teams - i guess thats why eric decosta runs the draft (and evidently predicts it right) and not us

[allblackraven]

24 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

I think Davis could drop to us thanks to Ross rising. If Ross is the 2nd receiver taken, then Davis likely slides since not as many top teams need WRs this year.

Lot of good DBs and edge rushers this year - I think teams will feel comfortable waiting for them in the 2nd and take top wideouts earlier than many people think.

[raven94]

9 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

i just did a mock - i might do a post tomorrow - where davis slid to us without ross going in the top 16

on a side note about mocks: i always find it hard mocking to other teams sometimes because there are so many seemingly left field media picks that i would love to happen because they drop guys i have valued higher on my big board but i cant justify in my head because i dont see why it happens lol - like ive seen taco charlton mocked ahead of our pick a lot but i dont see it so i didnt mock him there but in my head i wonder whether he will go and push back yet more great prospects to us... i always find myself maybe forcing 1 pick but all it would take is a team falling in love with ross or charlton or peppers or lamp or humphrey or bolles or any of the qbs and we end up with even more choices than we all initially envisioned - we are so stuck as a board in our valuations of players for the ravens that its hard to justify different valuations for other teams - i guess thats why eric decosta runs the draft (and evidently predicts it right) and not us

Every time I do a mock, this is exactly how I feel, and especially this year with about 2 rounds worth of first rounders. It's so hard this year with such a loaded draft class

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

15 hours ago, ravensnation5220 said:

Not even close? When I see Davis catch I see a natural hands catcher. Williams tends to let the ball into his body a bit as well as body catching, doesn't always extend his arms all the way out  and double catches pretty often as well. Idk what your looking at, Davis has pulled off some pretty remarkable catches of his own

I'm ok with a few concentration drops by Davis when he catches 100+ balls in 4 straight season lol. 

Another factor is character and I'm not sure Williams is the brightest of the bunch while Davis is very level headed and seems to take his education seriously and is a senior who finished his degree which is important to us believe it or not

The only way I see Williams being ranked higher is if davis' foot injury is really worrisome. 

When did Williams go up in triple coverage and get leveled by a safety and come down with the ball? Never saw that play 

And who did he beat time and time again? Humphrey is really the only guy he beat and that was only one play. Which he had to double catch

Im not worried about the level of competition for Davis because when you go against guys like that you want to stand out like he did. He was consistent and he really just made himself seem like he was on another level and that's what you want to see against competition like that. The way he runs his routes and the ways he gets separation will translate to the next level. Don't focus so much on who they play and focus on whether or not they can play. When you go up against better competition it should seem even and when you go up against lesser competition you should be completely dominant which Davis did. 

Davis is just the all around better player. Williams has just played in bigger games with better talent. However he creates no separation and is just a jump ball expert with run after the catch ability. Davis is all this and more. 

Sorry, i was going off memory so it wasnt exactly as described... but against Auburn hes initially being man covered by a CB, with a LB and S bracketing him underneath and over top. He makes the catch with the CB draped on his back and the S breaking on the ball, and the instant he turns up field gets drilled by a helmet to helmet hit from the S. Wasnt exactly tight triple coverage, but it was 3 defenders in coverage devoted to denying him the ball.

And Williams can/does create separation. He just doesnt need as much to make a play. 

Im also not convinced Davis can separate consistently against elite athletes and NFL level DBs. Against Ohio State this past season, which is arguably the only time he was matched up against an NFL talent one on one, he didnt separate at all. His 2 best catches were boundary come backs where the QB showed exceptional ball placements and Davis made 2 great catches. But he didnt create space, he used his body and boundary to create a target where only he could get the ball and the QB hit it. Otherwise he was pretty much smothered the rest of the game.

 

But ultimately this is opinion. We've all seen the same thing; it's not about "believing" you or a media scout that happens to share your opinion. I could pull a number of media outlets who happen to see and feel the same way i do.

Its matter of opinion, and theres legit reasons to value either. Just depends on how much weight you put on different aspects of their games/evaluations.

We can go back and forth on this all day, but it will only be settled by how the perform in the NFL. So time will tell. 

[rossihunter2]

49 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Against Ohio State this past season

i dont think this was this year - im pretty sure that was 2015 - i only say this because he improved against some of the other better competition level defences he played this year like illinois and wisconsin - not to the extent that he was killing them but he showed improvement and he went back to basics with his improved creative route running and it helped him gain a lot of separation early in the route especially vs wisconsin (although the corner was shorter than him and the qb never went through his reads to notice the open man often enough)

i stil have concerns over davis's level of competition but they were alleviated somewhat by some of the elite route running traits and the way they translated into that wisconsin game

[Edgar]

12 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

i just did a mock - i might do a post tomorrow - where davis slid to us without ross going in the top 16

on a side note about mocks: i always find it hard mocking to other teams sometimes because there are so many seemingly left field media picks that i would love to happen because they drop guys i have valued higher on my big board but i cant justify in my head because i dont see why it happens lol - like ive seen taco charlton mocked ahead of our pick a lot but i dont see it so i didnt mock him there but in my head i wonder whether he will go and push back yet more great prospects to us... i always find myself maybe forcing 1 pick but all it would take is a team falling in love with ross or charlton or peppers or lamp or humphrey or bolles or any of the qbs and we end up with even more choices than we all initially envisioned - we are so stuck as a board in our valuations of players for the ravens that its hard to justify different valuations for other teams - i guess thats why eric decosta runs the draft (and evidently predicts it right) and not us

Post it. Mocks have dried up of late.

[rossihunter2]

26 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Post it. Mocks have dried up of late.

i suddenly got busy today and i also wanted to maybe post my big board along with it with all the talent tiers marked + im still watching some edge guys on film right now but i've done the mock it's just about finding the time to do the post

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

3 hours ago, rossihunter2 said:

i dont think this was this year - im pretty sure that was 2015 - i only say this because he improved against some of the other better competition level defences he played this year like illinois and wisconsin - not to the extent that he was killing them but he showed improvement and he went back to basics with his improved creative route running and it helped him gain a lot of separation early in the route especially vs wisconsin (although the corner was shorter than him and the qb never went through his reads to notice the open man often enough)

i stil have concerns over davis's level of competition but they were alleviated somewhat by some of the elite route running traits and the way they translated into that wisconsin game

youre right it was 2015.

but i dont count Wisconsin or Illinois as having NFL talent in their secondary.

Sojourn Shelton is the only NFL prospect of the bunch and he's 5'9" 170 lbs. Hes giving up almost 6 inches and 40 lbs to Davis without any real advantage in athleticism. That doesnt necessarily mean great route running... every 1 of Davis' steps Shelton has to take 3. And no way Sheltons making any plays on the ball.

And he still had one of his worst games 3 games of the season against Wisconsin.

 

And Illinois he made a couple big plays. He didnt consistently win... and that i attribute a lot to Illinois Run D giving up well over 200 rushing yds/gm. They had to sell out stopping the run at all times, which leaves them open for big plays. And Davis did take advantage there... but he wasnt a consistent menace in that game either.

 

 

Edited March 24 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[RaineV1]

I think between Davis and Williams, I have to go with Williams. Williams can do just about everything Davis can, but can also stretch the field on top of that. While Davis can make the occasional big catch downfield, it's not something you want to use him for often.