Ravens Woes...4 Years of Poor Drafting-No Depth? - Brent Harris

[kjbmore]

14 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

You answered your own question. Reynolds was basically a glorified RB in college and if you watch the guy in space or tight areas, his elusiveness and short area quickness was great. That's exactly what you look for in a return guys and a slot WR. The transition from QB to WR has had happened and with great success in some cases. 

I don't doubt that the feel good story aspect was a big part, the Ravens never hid that. People say that as if it was some sort of bad thing or a conspiracy the Ravens tried to cover up. Here's exactly what DeCosta said about Reynolds.

 

So there is no doubt they wanted that type of person associated with this organization, I don't see the problem with that. But you're kidding yourself if you think the Ravens picked him knowing he would never be able to help them win on the field. You're kidding yourself if you don't think they scouted this guy and put a lot of weight in B. Mitchell's opinion as a collegiate QB turned NFL returner. You're kidding yourself if you don't think the Ravens saw him play making ability as the leading TD scorer in the NCAAF and hoped it could translate to this offense. 

You're kidding yourself if you think he's going to actually make a meaningful contribution.

happy to be proved wrong

not holding my breathe for 6th round picks on the practice squad to do much more than fill out our depth chart

next

[Ravensfan23]

1 hour ago, kjbmore said:

pinning our hopes on 6th & 7th round picks is the reason we're still looking for a return and slot guy, Michael Campanaro, just need to spend some decent picks on it, sterling shepherd - available after our first trade back,  Stefon Diggs - 5th rounder Jamison crowder - 4th, Tyler Lockett - did he have a 2 touchdown game against us? Guys that were just there for the taking

No we're hoping reynolds a 6th round - converted qb will catch fire and be our guy or Campanaro will miracously go from mr glass to iron man - well we'll still be waiting for all that promise to play out, Hester will probably still be fumbling punts and Harbs will be looking for a new job

 

 

Anyone would be a fool to say they don't want those guys on this team, but again we're talking hindsight. Yes right now everyone hands down would take Diggs over Tray Walker(rip). However lets look at the situation. You're talking about a team who just held 2 14 point leads vs the Pats in the playoffs and it was poor play of the secondary that really did the team in. Reports were that the Ravens were really high on Tray and he would have had a large role in the defense during the 2016 season. CB had been a issue for this team a long time and while WR was an issue, they Ravens had just drafted Perriman in the 1st. Nobody expected Camp to be completely wiped out by injury. I don't think you can deny his talent though. Diggs level? No but I don't fault the Ravens for choosing to come away with a potential starting CB in the 4th and a shifty WR later. 

Ravens really had no shot at Crowder in the 4th without trading up or taking him in the 3rd. I don't think that would've been good value. The same with Lockett, he was a high 3rd round pick. The only way the Ravens get him is to trade up from 90 to 69 or not select Maxx Williams and trade back for Lockett. But against look at the situation. Pitta looks like his career is over and Daniels followed Kubes to Den. Maxx was the highest rated TE and the Ravens needed one. So while we can look at these guys and say man i'd love to have him, it doesn't always play out that way. The Ravens aren't the only team picking these players. 

[Ravensfan23]

56 minutes ago, kjbmore said:

I thought we drafted Perriman to replace Torrey? And we brought in Wallace in case Perriman dinged up again and we just tripled down and grabbed Moore - still don't have a shifty slot guy or a returner - that doesn't seem to add up - but it's ok we get Hester and run pitta out of the slot

so then we grabbed one guy to replace 2 players and then he kept getting dinged and rightfully so we moved on, now we're pinning our hopes on rookies and 2nd year players - 4th and 5th rounders at that, our 2nd round pick can't get on the field, to replace guys who have been perennial pro bowlers, defensive player of the year guys

think we threw more quantity at an area of concern - not sure about the quality

im not really seeing succession planning until it's too late 

we just seem to be a couple steps behind the eightball 

 

No uneducated fans and media said Perriman was drafted to replace Torrey because he was fast. Perriman was drafted in hopes of being that #1 WR this team could build around. You draft Perriman, draft Maxx, then follow up by drafting Moore and Dixon. How is that any different than what teams like the Bengals, Steelers, Flacons and others have done. The problem is , as i said before injuries derailed development by a year. So instead of Perriman showing signs of being that #1 WR, he's basically just a rookie trying to find his footing after missing back to back training camps. Instead of Maxx following up on a strong finish to his rookie season, injuries slowed him. As soon as Dixon show huge play making potential, he gets hurt and misses time. 

Not saying the Ravens don't have issues and some holes, but the past 4 drafts haven't been as bad as many make it out to be. Injuries has made things a lot worse. 

 

[kjbmore]

It's definitely hindsight but we had to bring in 50 year old Hester at the death because we didn't have a returner

we also don't really have a dynamic guy we can replace smith with - Aiken??

where is the fore thought, these guys are paid to think this stuff through

[Ravensfan23]

1 hour ago, kjbmore said:

You're kidding yourself if you think he's going to actually make a meaningful contribution.

happy to be proved wrong

not holding my breathe for 6th round picks on the practice squad to do much more than fill out our depth chart

next

I don't get some of you guys, It's like you can't say something positive about a players without you thinking that player is being anointed. I'm not holding my breathe for Reynolds to be anything and the fact that the Ravens actually cut him says they aren't holding their breath either. Nowhere did I say Reynolds will be a stud, nowhere did I say Reynolds would be a great WR or RS. I simply says he has the "potential" to be a dynamic RS and Slot WR because of his short area quickness and shiftiness. He's a 6th round pick on the PS for a reason, he's not yet ready to help this team. However that doesn't mean the guy sucks and never will amount to anything because he didn't impress you in the 6 weeks he spent making the switch from college QB to NFL WR/RS. 

If he pans out great, if he doesn't he was a 6th round pick on the PS big deal. 

And how exactly am i kidding myself?

[usmccharles]

3 minutes ago, kjbmore said:

It's definitely hindsight but we had to bring in 50 year old Hester at the death because we didn't have a returner

we also don't really have a dynamic guy we can replace smith with - Aiken??

where is the fore thought, these guys are paid to think this stuff through

Wait... Your not saying Aiken is dynamic are you? 

[usmccharles]

2 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I don't get some of you guys, It's like you can't say something positive about a players without you thinking that player is being anointed. I'm not holding my breathe for Reynolds to be anything and the fact that the Ravens actually cut him says they aren't holding their breath either. Nowhere did I say Reynolds will be a stud, nowhere did I say Reynolds would be a great WR or RS. I simply says he has the "potential" to be a dynamic RS and Slot WR because of his short area quickness and shiftiness. He's a 6th round pick on the PS for a reason, he's not yet ready to help this team. However that doesn't mean the guy sucks and never will amount to anything because he didn't impress you in the 6 weeks he spent making the switch from college QB to NFL WR/RS. 

If he pans out great, if he doesn't he was a 6th round pick on the PS big deal. 

And how exactly am i kidding y

I'd you say something positive about a player who hasn't really done anything,  your an unrealistic Homer wearing purple shades. 

[Ravensfan23]

5 minutes ago, kjbmore said:

It's definitely hindsight but we had to bring in 50 year old Hester at the death because we didn't have a returner

we also don't really have a dynamic guy we can replace smith with - Aiken??

where is the fore thought, these guys are paid to think this stuff through

The fore thought is drafting guys like Perriman, Moore, Williams, Camp, Reynolds etc. How do you know the Ravens don't have a dynamic guy to replace Smith because you haven't seen it yet. By that same thinking you wouldn't have though Antonio Brown was dynamic enough to take over for Hines Ward in 2010 because he only had 16rec 167yds and 0TDs his rookie year. 

Again the microwave society says that every draft pick must show immediate return, but reality is that human being take time to develop. It's not Madden football where you just plug and play. 

I agree that the Hester signing wasn't good, but every signing isn't gonna be a hit. 

[MTRavensFan]

2 hours ago, kjbmore said:

100% - they rammed his story down our throats

never seen a 6th round pick get soo much airtime

 

Tom Brady says hello,  LOL. 

[kjbmore]

8 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I don't get some of you guys, It's like you can't say something positive about a players without you thinking that player is being anointed. I'm not holding my breathe for Reynolds to be anything and the fact that the Ravens actually cut him says they aren't holding their breath either. Nowhere did I say Reynolds will be a stud, nowhere did I say Reynolds would be a great WR or RS. I simply says he has the "potential" to be a dynamic RS and Slot WR because of his short area quickness and shiftiness. He's a 6th round pick on the PS for a reason, he's not yet ready to help this team. However that doesn't mean the guy sucks and never will amount to anything because he didn't impress you in the 6 weeks he spent making the switch from college QB to NFL WR/RS. 

If he pans out great, if he doesn't he was a 6th round pick on the PS big deal. 

And how exactly am i kidding y

We've spent ONE PICK in the LAST 5 YEARS in the FIRST 3 ROUNDS on WR - how the hell are we supposed to replenish our WR corps with that. 

We have a decent QB and we had hoped he could elevate middling talent but we have kind of seen that's not the case.

Wonder why we don't have playmakers and then we're sitting here discussing 6th and 7th round picks 

im just saying we need to be realistic with expectations for 6th n 7th round guys

 

[kjbmore]

1 minute ago, MTRavensFan said:

Tom Brady says hello,  LOL. 

Before they've taken an NFL snap

[Ravensfan23]

1 hour ago, usmccharles said:

Yes, im not disagreeing with you, to an extent.  I understand that no one knows what they will become and i understand keeping more picks to increase your chance of hitting, but im just saying, id like to see us go get a guy thats coveted.  Would i want to trade what it would take to go get a guy like Mack would of costed us? no.  Would i of liked to see us move a couple spots to get Dez, yes.  I like to have all the picks most of the time, but here and there id like some moves.  I dont know if you pay attention to my posts but im an avid supporter of our FO, of course id always like to see us draft better and i trust Oz to make the right picks.  Im one of the guys saying lets give KC time before we judge, just saying i would of taken Alexander, but its not like i know what im talking about.  Pretty sure we moved up to get Oher, im glad we made the move, yea it didnt work out but at least we went after who our target was. 

Oh yea I know you weren't bashing the FO, we're both just speaking in general. I just think it's easier to say oh trade up for this guy or that guy, but it also it takes two teams to trade. I'd like to see the Ravens land some guys, but at what cost. When you see guys like Juice, Wagner, Young, Judon, BW, Pitta and other late round guys, you can see how the Ravens would be confident enough not to overspend in trade value. I seriously think the biggest issue is injury. We need guys like Suggs, Yanda, SSS and Weddle to play well enough to allow guys to develop, but when they get hurt and it forces guys into action sooner than expected, it hurts them imo. 

[usmccharles]

2 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Oh yea I know you weren't bashing the FO, we're both just speaking in general. I just think it's easier to say oh trade up for this guy or that guy, but it also it takes two teams to trade. I'd like to see the Ravens land some guys, but at what cost. When you see guys like Juice, Wagner, Young, Judon, BW, Pitta and other late round guys, you can see how the Ravens would be confident enough not to overspend in trade value. I seriously think the biggest issue is injury. We need guys like Suggs, Yanda, SSS and Weddle to play well enough to allow guys to develop, but when they get hurt and it forces guys into action sooner than expected, it hurts them imo. 

No doubt I put most of our issue on injuries as well.  I mean if ssr is healthy, him and Wallace could be tearing it up.   And yea I know it takes two to trade and I know we always get awesome value in our 4th-ish round.   I agree on forcing them in early hurts them.   I'm really interested in seeing kaufusi 

[kjbmore]

36 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

The fore thought is drafting guys like Perriman, Moore, Williams, Camp, Reynolds etc. How do you know the Ravens don't have a dynamic guy to replace Smith because you haven't seen it yet. By that same thinking you wouldn't have though Antonio Brown was dynamic enough to take over for Hines Ward in 2010 because he only had 16rec 167yds and 0TDs his rookie year. 

Again the microwave society says that every draft pick must show immediate return, but reality is that human being take time to develop. It's not Madden football where you just plug and play. 

I agree that the Hester signing wasn't good, but every signing isn't gonna be a hit. 

There is absolutely no fore thought there - what you've highlighted is how reactionary we are.

If we had drafted - Perriman while we had torrey - that's forethought - we grabbed him to plug a hole, Same with Maxx

drafting guys like Markus Wheaton and Sammir Coates when I have Antonio brown and sanders already - is forethought, drafting sanders and brown - when I have Wallace and ward already that's forethought, letting them sit and develop, while I've got my guys performing is smart. 

Sitting and hoping for 1 - yes 1 high draft pick in 5 years to pan out - instantly!! or hope 6th rounders do something while u hope that a 35 year old guy who plays harder than anybody in the league holds up for a whole season - that's not forethought - thats wishful thinking - that's what we trotted out last season

guess which team has a high scoring offense and which one keeps firing offensive coordinators and is putting up 10 pts a game, screaming we need playmakers

obviously we've performed pretty well recently compared to the steelers but if we'd been a little more proactive in addressing the receiver position

if we're going to spend $$ on Flacco why aren't we giving him weapons

although it seems like the penny has dropped and we're starting to throw some resources at WR

how many years of Flaccos career have we wasted though, guy won a SB for us and we paid him and then got rid of our best WR while half our defense retired

give the man weapons and let him carry us

Edited November 3, 2016 by kjbmore

[PurpleCity5]

10 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I agree that we haven't invested high draft picks at corner, but the problem is that high draft picks in recent history have been a total crap shoot. Like its pretty much a coin flip or worse that you get even a serviceable corner in the first round anymore.

Look at the teams you listed:

1. Denver basically bought most of their secondary. They bought Talib, Ward, and Stewart. Chris Harris was a UDFA, and Roby was a recent 1st round pick.

So basically their top 5 DBs include a 1st round pick, a UDFA, and 3 FA acquisitions. Not exactly "homegrown".

2. Houston did draft Kareem Jackson in the 1st round, but they also bought Joseph from the Bengals and their safeties are horrible.

3. The Bengals certainly draft a ton of corners, but I also think part of that is because they've whiffed on a few as well.

There's only a handful of good secondaries in the league I see that are largely comprised of "homegrown" talent. Most of them have a mixture of FA acquisitions, a high draft pick or two, and some mid-round draft picks. 

While I agree corner has been a weakness for us, I would easily argue that safety has been a position of much greater weakness for the last three seasons prior to this one. And we used two draft picks in the first 3 rounds on players there (Elam and Brooks), with neither working out that well.

Denver did buy Harris Jr. and Talib but that tandem is still good enough to get you a secondary in the top ten but still drafted CB with needs elsewhere. 

Houston had Jackson and Joseph as a tandem as well and a good one at that. The only point I will make here is that both had injury concerns, but Texans had plenty of other needs and still went CB. 

Another team I forgot to name was the Vikings, took Xavier Rhodes(R1,PK25), Trae Waynes(R1, PK11), McKensie Alexander(R2, PK23) all while adding Terrence Newman and Captain Munnerlynn to the roster. Stacks of CBs there. 

I can understand the prospect of risks in the draft, but sometimes you got to take your shots. What if we made a move on Rob Gronkowski when he had that bad injury concern? What if we made a move on Diggs when he had his injury concerns? I feel bad for the other teams that didn't take that shot on Marcus Peters as well. Hindsight is 20/20 but sometimes the teams that take that chance gets the best reward. Boom or Bust sure, but a huge Boom that could change the dynamic of this team. 

Also, recently I disagree a bit about the draft being a crap shoot specifically at CB. In 2015, you had Trae Waynes, Kevin Johnson, Marcus Peters, Bryon Jones, all taken in the first round and they have contributed. The standouts Kevin Johnson and Marcus Peters have shown to be future stars at their position. Johnson is injured now but he was playing some good football before his injury and we all know how Peters is doing. 2016 had Jalen Ramsey and Vernon Hargreaves who are playing well. Eli Apple looks good and Artie Burnes leads the Steelers in pass break outs, don't think Burns is lighting the world on fire but their defense will probably be worse without him. 

[rmcjacket23]

6 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Denver did buy Harris Jr. and Talib but that tandem is still good enough to get you a secondary in the top ten but still drafted CB with needs elsewhere. 

Houston had Jackson and Joseph as a tandem as well and a good one at that. The only point I will make here is that both had injury concerns, but Texans had plenty of other needs and still went CB. 

Another team I forgot to name was the Vikings, took Xavier Rhodes(R1,PK25), Trae Waynes(R1, PK11), McKensie Alexander(R2, PK23) all while adding Terrence Newman and Captain Munnerlynn to the roster. Stacks of CBs there. 

I can understand the prospect of risks in the draft, but sometimes you got to take your shots. What if we made a move on Rob Gronkowski when he had that bad injury concern? What if we made a move on Diggs when he had his injury concerns? I feel bad for the other teams that didn't take that shot on Marcus Peters as well. Hindsight is 20/20 but sometimes the teams that take that chance gets the best reward. Boom or Bust sure, but a huge Boom that could change the dynamic of this team. 

Also, recently I disagree a bit about the draft being a crap shoot specifically at CB. In 2015, you had Trae Waynes, Kevin Johnson, Marcus Peters, Bryon Jones, all taken in the first round and they have contributed. The standouts Kevin Johnson and Marcus Peters have shown to be future stars at their position. Johnson is injured now but he was playing some good football before his injury and we all know how Peters is doing. 2016 had Jalen Ramsey and Vernon Hargreaves who are playing well. Eli Apple looks good and Artie Burnes leads the Steelers in pass break outs, don't think Burns is lighting the world on fire but their defense will probably be worse without him. 

1. What were Houston's other "needs"? Everybody knew that secondary was the weakest unit on their team the last few years. They didn't need DLineman, they signed a QB and RB in FA, and they had a stud WR already and drafted two more in day 2 the last couple years. I mean I guess they could have used Oline help or linebacker help, but like other teams, they prioritize certain areas over others. I don't see what they did being anything special or different than what anybody else would do.

2. Never really saw the love for Diggs. Think its more of MD people falling in love with a MD guy. Doing the same thing this year that he did last year... had 3-4 really good games, and then had long stretches where he basically was non-existent on the field. He's not the type of player I really regret whiffing on.

3. I agree that the Vikings attacked corner a lot, largely because they were rebuilding a unit and they had a lot of other good players in other spots. They spent several years drafting front 7 guys as well, and they have one of the best units there. 

In hindsight for them, perhaps drafting 1 less corner and adding one respectable offensive lineman might have been the better way to go, since its the lack of depth and quality at offensive line that is going to lead to them not being a legit contender in the NFC in my opinion.

4. 2015 was a good class for corners, but that's just one season.

How about the 2014 class? The one where Justin Gilbert was a top 10 pick, Darqueze Dennard is playing like a quarter of the snaps in his 3rd year (top 25 pick). Sure, there's guys like Verrett and Fuller in there who appear to be quite good, but again, just a total crap shoot. 

Even back to 2013... mega bust Dee Milliner is a top 10 pick, and DJ Hayden who is really bad, went 12th overall. Again, some good corners in that class, like Trufant and Rhodes.

That's the entire point. A lot of the guys you listed are "contributors", but is that the standard that we are going for? Using high draft picks on corners who "contribute"? I mean if I'm using a 1st round pick on a corner, I want him at Jimmy Smith or better level all the time. 

There's an awful lot of early draft pick corners in the last few years that end up being #2 or slot corners. I mean even the Steelers sort of acknowledged that a couple of the corners they've taken the last few years are "projects", and those are guys they're using day 1 or 2 picks on.

[PurpleCity5]

16 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

1. What were Houston's other "needs"? Everybody knew that secondary was the weakest unit on their team the last few years. They didn't need DLineman, they signed a QB and RB in FA, and they had a stud WR already and drafted two more in day 2 the last couple years. I mean I guess they could have used Oline help or linebacker help, but like other teams, they prioritize certain areas over others. I don't see what they did being anything special or different than what anybody else would do.

2. Never really saw the love for Diggs. Think its more of MD people falling in love with a MD guy. Doing the same thing this year that he did last year... had 3-4 really good games, and then had long stretches where he basically was non-existent on the field. He's not the type of player I really regret whiffing on.

3. I agree that the Vikings attacked corner a lot, largely because they were rebuilding a unit and they had a lot of other good players in other spots. They spent several years drafting front 7 guys as well, and they have one of the best units there. 

In hindsight for them, perhaps drafting 1 less corner and adding one respectable offensive lineman might have been the better way to go, since its the lack of depth and quality at offensive line that is going to lead to them not being a legit contender in the NFC in my opinion.

4. 2015 was a good class for corners, but that's just one season.

How about the 2014 class? The one where Justin Gilbert was a top 10 pick, Darqueze Dennard is playing like a quarter of the snaps in his 3rd year (top 25 pick). Sure, there's guys like Verrett and Fuller in there who appear to be quite good, but again, just a total crap shoot. 

Even back to 2013... mega bust Dee Milliner is a top 10 pick, and DJ Hayden who is really bad, went 12th overall. Again, some good corners in that class, like Trufant and Rhodes.

That's the entire point. A lot of the guys you listed are "contributors", but is that the standard that we are going for? Using high draft picks on corners who "contribute"? I mean if I'm using a 1st round pick on a corner, I want him at Jimmy Smith or better level all the time. 

There's an awful lot of early draft pick corners in the last few years that end up being #2 or slot corners. I mean even the Steelers sort of acknowledged that a couple of the corners they've taken the last few years are "projects", and those are guys they're using day 1 or 2 picks on.

1. When you finish 9-7, then you definitely have some needs. They struggled with injuries at CB but years prior they were stout. One year does not make their secondary the weakest in the league if both of their starters are dealing with injuries, just unfortunate for them. 

2. Diggs wouldn't make sense in R1, R2, or R3, but heading into the 4th round you don't have much to lose. You may not have seen a lot in Diggs but from what I've seen plenty of people here did, it doesn't mean anything to the FO but statewide and in the Baltimore Press, there was plenty of excitement at the prospect of drafting Diggs in the late rounds. Also, how can you not regret passing on a guy like that? Even if you take injuries to account when was the last time we've ever had a guy here not named Steve Smith put up 182 yards in a game? Our guy who we drafted in the 1st ( Who, yes has struggled with injuries) has not even sniffed the numbers Diggs has put up this year. 

3. 2014 draft class was shaky, but as far as the 2013 Draft class goes, it was a very underwhelming class as a whole. Worst position in that entire first round was not CB, not even close. That goes to pass rusher, OLB/DE. Dion Jordan(DE/OLB), Barkevious Mingo(DE/OLB), Bjorn Werner(DE/OLB), and Jarvis Jones(DE/OLB), all picked in the first round, 2 selected in the top 10. They range from a complete bust to underwhelming. The only impactful pass rusher that was picked in the 1st two rounds of that draft was Ziggy Ansah, that's it. First round CBs Desmond Tufant and Xavier Rhodes are well worth their selection. When you Include the early second round, Darius Slay who got paid big time and David Amerson who is playing like a beast this year, then you absolutely don't have the worst group in the class. I really don't think bringing up the 2013 class in regards to CB has much relevence since it wasn't the worst position group in the class. 

At the position that we currently find ourselves in. I'm looking for a CB who has two attributes. One who is pro ready, and a playmaker. Hargreaves and Ramsey have shown both. Also, CB is a position of progress, A lot of the CBs who are considered studs today started out as contributors. They weren't lighting the world on fire Day 1.

Also, truth be told, we're doing exactly what you have been saying. When was the last time we ever taken a CB in the 1st round? We haven't done so since Jimmy Smith...who has been our #1 CB. We have gone the route of taking projects and it has not paid off. R.I.P to Tray Walker because unfortunetly he didn't get his opportunity but are we really making investments at CB early? No, and judging by the secondary it hasn't help that we haven't done so. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by PurpleCity5

[kjbmore]

On 3 November 2016 at 7:56 AM, Ravensfan23 said:

That's lost in this microwave era. Everybody wants there meal fast and now, nobody wants to take the time to see things develop or grow over time. Oh Reynolds as a 6th rd pick couldn't even make the team, it was a horrible pick. No it's a pick that's just not ready to contribute right now, but doesn't mean he won't every contribute. The Ravens have been searching for a dynamic returner and slot guy for a while and he could very well be it for years to come. 

Something made me think about the microwave reference.

Have to say - when our team goes 5 -11 I'm looking for instant everything - popcorn, coffee, fast food.

Id like to get better now, straight away and I think we had every chance to do that - let the teams winning their division and going to the Super Bowl pick guys who might be ok in 2 or 3 years after being in a weight room and learning and this n that

we have holes everywhere and our record reflects that, we have s high second round pick who's not really helping us get any better, our 3rd isn't out there either - nobody's fault but when u pick a 2nd who's a tweener and going to take some time then lose your 3rd - you havent really helped your team get better

thibk we're going to be in a similar position come draft time 

be interesting to see if we want to play checkers or chess next time around 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2016 by kjbmore

[Halshayeji]

On October 27, 2016 at 9:36 PM, The Raven said:

I think our cap has been tied down with contracts of aging players who didn't produce as much as they were paid to. Suggs and Dumervil are KILLING us right now with that. So much of our cap is invested in them and they have a combined, what, two sacks?

I think it's also because we struggle to develop some guys, too. Jah Reid comes to mind there.

Thats like saying Joe killed us last year by getting hurt. Is play is killing us now because but last year wasn't his fault. The guy tore his knee I mean you can't blame an injured guy for not producing on the field. You can complain about his unavailability but not his play. Doom and Suggs combined account for less than 10% of the cap and Doom is probably gone this summer. Suggs on the other hand got 5 sacks in 5 games while playing limited snaps and was a big reason behind us being #1 against the run.

[rmcjacket23]

10 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

1. When you finish 9-7, then you definitely have some needs. They struggled with injuries at CB but years prior they were stout. One year does not make their secondary the weakest in the league if both of their starters are dealing with injuries, just unfortunate for them. 

2. Diggs wouldn't make sense in R1, R2, or R3, but heading into the 4th round you don't have much to lose. You may not have seen a lot in Diggs but from what I've seen plenty of people here did, it doesn't mean anything to the FO but statewide and in the Baltimore Press, there was plenty of excitement at the prospect of drafting Diggs in the late rounds. Also, how can you not regret passing on a guy like that? Even if you take injuries to account when was the last time we've ever had a guy here not named Steve Smith put up 182 yards in a game? Our guy who we drafted in the 1st ( Who, yes has struggled with injuries) has not even sniffed the numbers Diggs has put up this year. 

3. 2014 draft class was shaky, but as far as the 2013 Draft class goes, it was a very underwhelming class as a whole. Worst position in that entire first round was not CB, not even close. That goes to pass rusher, OLB/DE. Dion Jordan(DE/OLB), Barkevious Mingo(DE/OLB), Bjorn Werner(DE/OLB), and Jarvis Jones(DE/OLB), all picked in the first round, 2 selected in the top 10. They range from a complete bust to underwhelming. The only impactful pass rusher that was picked in the 1st two rounds of that draft was Ziggy Ansah, that's it. First round CBs Desmond Tufant and Xavier Rhodes are well worth their selection. When you Include the early second round, Darius Slay who got paid big time and David Amerson who is playing like a beast this year, then you absolutely don't have the worst group in the class. I really don't think bringing up the 2013 class in regards to CB has much relevence since it wasn't the worst position group in the class. 

At the position that we currently find ourselves in. I'm looking for a CB who has two attributes. One who is pro ready, and a playmaker. Hargreaves and Ramsey have shown both. Also, CB is a position of progress, A lot of the CBs who are considered studs today started out as contributors. They weren't lighting the world on fire Day 1.

Also, truth be told, we're doing exactly what you have been saying. When was the last time we ever taken a CB in the 1st round? We haven't done so since Jimmy Smith...who has been our #1 CB. We have gone the route of taking projects and it has not paid off. R.I.P to Tray Walker because unfortunetly he didn't get his opportunity but are we really making investments at CB early? No, and judging by the secondary it hasn't help that we haven't done so. 

1. Yes, they had needs. The primary one's were QB and RB. They addressed both in FA, hence no need to address them in the draft.

2. That's great, but the style of offense we run isn't really built on a guy putting up that kind of production out of a WR. We spread the ball around too much for that to happen. I would go as far as to say that if Diggs were on this team later year and this year, his production would probably be less than it is on the Vikings, based on the way our offense runs.

Basically, if I'm going to play the "look at the guys we passed on game", Diggs wouldn't rank anywhere near the top of my list of guys we "passed on" in the draft for somebody else.

3. I agree that class wasn't very good... and frankly, not a lot of classes since then have been very good. That's the whole point. People want us to take a corner just for the sake of taking a corner. They honestly don't even care if that corner sucks... they just want to say "hey look, we took a corner in the 1st round". Then, they will hypocritically wait until that corner struggles (like Jimmy occasionally has), and complain about how the FO doesn't address the position.

We've only had four 1st round picks since Jimmy got drafted... that's not a long time by any possible stretch. If we have to take multiple corners in the first round over a 4-5 year period, that's a BAD thing, not a good thing. It likely means that the first guy we took isn't very good, and that we're also not getting any traction in mid round picks or FA signings at that position. 

If you look around the league, the overwhelming majority of teams have one high drafted corner, maybe one or two guys than they drafted in the middle rounds or developed into good players (like a Chris Harris), and then maybe 1-2 FA signings. Its actually pretty rare that you see a team invest multiple first round picks in a short period of time on corners, especially when you mostly only have 2-3 of them on the field at any given time.

And believe me, I'm one of the people who usually advocates attacking the corner position. But I'm certainly not the one who thinks we should just start throwing high draft picks at the position just to appease the fanbase. If they don't like a player in that spot, don't take him. Its that simple.

I mean look at the Steelers. I'm not suggesting their strategy won't work, but they've taken drafted four corners in the last two years within the first 4 rounds, including a first rounder and 2 second rounders. You know what that says to me? It says "look, we don't know if any of these guys are any good, and we don't have that much confidence in any of them, so we're going to keep throwing darts at this position and hope something sticks". Its a strategy. I'm not sure if its a good one or a bad one, and time will tell.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

On 11/2/2016 at 10:53 PM, kjbmore said:

We've spent ONE PICK in the LAST 5 YEARS in the FIRST 3 ROUNDS on WR - how the hell are we supposed to replenish our WR corps with that. 

We have a decent QB and we had hoped he could elevate middling talent but we have kind of seen that's not the case.

Wonder why we don't have playmakers and then we're sitting here discussing 6th and 7th round picks 

im just saying we need to be realistic with expectations for 6th n 7th round guys

 

How many WRs have NE, Cin, Pitt, Sea, Den, Atl, Dal, KC, Minn, Oak, etc... drafted in the first 3 rounds in the past 5 years?

Name a good team that has spent more than 1, maybe 2 picks on WR in the 1st 3 rounds in recent history.

[Edgar]

12 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

How many WRs have NE, Cin, Pitt, Sea, Den, Atl, Dal, KC, Minn, Oak, etc... drafted in the first 3 rounds in the past 5 years?

Name a good team that has spent more than 1, maybe 2 picks on WR in the 1st 3 rounds in recent history.

A lot of caveats to be sure. I'm usually less interested in WR and more interested in O line and defense in terms of the draft but it's an interesting question or case study.

Pittsburgh I believe has invested in Coates and Wheaton...both third rounders, I believe.

Giants drafted Shepard and Beckham. Vikings, Dolphins (yes, I know you said good), Texans, ....Packers? Probably more. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

On 11/2/2016 at 11:10 PM, kjbmore said:

There is absolutely no fore thought there - what you've highlighted is how reactionary we are.

If we had drafted - Perriman while we had torrey - that's forethought - we grabbed him to plug a hole, Same with Maxx

drafting guys like Markus Wheaton and Sammir Coates when I have Antonio brown and sanders already - is forethought, drafting sanders and brown - when I have Wallace and ward already that's forethought, letting them sit and develop, while I've got my guys performing is smart. 

Sitting and hoping for 1 - yes 1 high draft pick in 5 years to pan out - instantly!! or hope 6th rounders do something while u hope that a 35 year old guy who plays harder than anybody in the league holds up for a whole season - that's not forethought - thats wishful thinking - that's what we trotted out last season

guess which team has a high scoring offense and which one keeps firing offensive coordinators and is putting up 10 pts a game, screaming we need playmakers

obviously we've performed pretty well recently compared to the steelers but if we'd been a little more proactive in addressing the receiver position

if we're going to spend $$ on Flacco why aren't we giving him weapons

although it seems like the penny has dropped and we're starting to throw some resources at WR

how many years of Flaccos career have we wasted though, guy won a SB for us and we paid him and then got rid of our best WR while half our defense retired

give the man weapons and let him carry us

I agree with your point on Flacco and weapons. We've dedicated the largest portion of our cap to him, and to me it then makes sense to hitch our horses there and make every effort to surround him with the best possible talent. IMO weve got a championship defense right now (and this is the tough part, bc we have this defense by investing significant resources recently), and with even a slightly above average offense would be serious playoff contenders.

But, most of the successful teams dont invest high draft picks in the WR position. I think part of it is just the nature of the position - its arguably one of the biggest leaps from the college game to the NFL. A lot of college receivers look great getting by on athleticism and playing against inferior competition in the secondary, and then crap the bed in the NFL when route running and technique become necessary to beat the level of corners you face. 

I dont have any numbers or data to back it up other than just experience, and general observation but it seems like WRs more than any other position youll have top draft picks completely fall flat routinely, others who seem to have the exact same skill set become beasts, and then guys nobody's heard of taken in the 6th light the league on fire right away.

So, it can be difficult to invest your top resources into the position on what can be largely a crap shoot. And i think  thats why we've preferred to go with upside, developmental guys who might hit and bring in established FA's whove proven they can play.

 

Plus, if you look at the teams who routinely seem to just pull weapons out of thin air that contribute right away - there teams that have an established offensive identity. The same HC, QB, OC for years who all live and breathe that philosophy. So they know exactly what roles need to be filled, theyve seen what skill sets fit those roles, and have developed prototypes. From that point on its just plug and play. 

We havent ever had that in Joe's tenure. Its been a revolving door. So if Oz drafts a guy who seems a perfect fit for Cam's offense, hes now gone, and is now trying to be squeezed into a role in Caldwells offense. That doesnt work, so you draft some guys that Caldwell likes, and he leaves. Do they fit what Kubes wants to do? He's gone.

It makes developing players, especially young players, 10x more difficult when there isnt that consistency. Yea we need weapons, i think they realize that, and why they were ok with a guy like Perriman - 6'2", extremely fast, athletic and a leaper can work in any system.

And we took guys like Camp, Reynolds, and Moore bc in the WCO their skill sets are valuable. You dont need super talented and athletic, just guys that are good in tight spaces. But, now we've even gone through 3 incarnations of the WCO that all ask for different things, and of course injuries have been a concern.

 

Our defense however has been stable. So, its a lot easier to invest big resources into something youre confident will be in place through the entirety of your assets development.

It sucks, but i fear that until we identify an OC and offensive philosophy that we're confident in sticking with going forward (and i think this is partially why trestman was attractive, WCO carry over from Kubes, but also a guy that likely wouldnt bolt in a year for a HC gig) the FO is going to be hesitant to invest tons of resources into the offense when they could be completely obsolete in a year or two... or at least not what the new OC prefers in his WRs/TEs/or RBs. Forsett is a classic example... brought in and invested in bc he was perfect for Kubes system. A year later, new OC and hes marginal at best.

Thats the risk of heavily investing in your offense when you dont have a philosophy, scheme and culture that you can commit to.

[Ravensfan23]

11 hours ago, kjbmore said:

Something made me think about the microwave reference.

Have to say - when our team goes 5 -11 I'm looking for instant everything - popcorn, coffee, fast food.

Id like to get better now, straight away and I think we had every chance to do that - let the teams winning their division and going to the Super Bowl pick guys who might be ok in 2 or 3 years after being in a weight room and learning and this n that

we have holes everywhere and our record reflects that, we have s high second round pick who's not really helping us get any better, our 3rd isn't out there either - nobody's fault but when u pick a 2nd who's a tweener and going to take some time then lose your 3rd - you havent really helped your team get better

think we're going to be in a similar position come draft time 

be interesting to see if we want to play checkers or chess next time around 

 

 

 

Brother we're a game away from being in 1st place of our division despite losing 4 in a row. That's more about how poor the division is, but still. The two 1st round picks from 2015 and 2016 have dealt with injury. This team is 1 or 2 plays away from winning nearly every game they play because they've had 21 games decided by 8 points or less in the last 2 years. It's not a lack of talent that is hampering this team imo, it's the injuries. I know people want to say you need depth behind guys but lets be honest, If AB goes down, that Steelers WR corp isn't the same. Does anyone think the Falcons are crushing it on offense without Juilo? The Cowboys probably have the best offensive line in the NFL, how would they look if they lost 3 out of their top 5 Olineman? The fact of the matter is, Starters are starters for a reason and when they get hurt, you can't expect backups to just step in and perform to the level of the starters. They aren't ready yet. 

As much as people want to beat up on Correa, the guys many wanted to select over him, mainly Myles Jack(who was can't miss) is having the same impact that Correa is. I don't know about others, but I thought Correa played well in his first start and would love to see him continue to start. 

You say you want guys making instant contributions after a 5-11 season. Ok I get that, but isn't Stanley and Lewis making immediate impact on the oline? Injuries have forced guys out of position but with both of those guys manning the left side the oline wasn't bad. Isn't Young and Judon making immediate impact? Judon has basically the same stats as a guy like Noah Spence who many slammed Ozzie for not selecting. BK was hurt(again injuries) and no one could have predicted that. Injuries have slowed Dixon who probably would have made immediate impact on this team. That's 5-6 guys who have already impact on this team or is expected to do so moving forward from the 16' draft. How is that not considered a good draft? 

The 15' draft is what's hurting the team right now, because you wanted those guys to start stepping into key roles in year two, but again injuries really have hampered that class. Perriman you'd hope starting showing more consistency in year 2, but instead is basically a rookie trying to over compensate missing 2 training camps. You'd hope that Maxx could build off a really strong finish to his rookie season, but he's on IR now. Davis you'd hope was at least in a rotation with Timmy and BW, he's on IR, but Pierce has more than taken over that role. ZDS had 5.5 sacks his rookie year, that's pretty good, but hasn't really done much thus far. Tray Walker was a guy who could very well be the starting CB opposite Jimmy right now, but we all know what happened. 

Again if Maxx and Perriman don't deal with injuries and they perform to a consistent level that we've seen the flashes they've shown. How different would this team's 4 year drafting look with CJ, Timmy showing pro bowl talent on defese. Perriman and Williams performing on offense. Even missing on Elam and Brown, you had Williams(might be the best NT) a mismatch creating FB in Juice, solid starting RT in Wagner and depth to your oline in Jensen. Add all this up with what is shaping up to be a great 16' draft. This team is full of talent, they are just young right now and the veterans you hope could teach that killer instinct to close games out are missing time with injuries. The inactive list for the last 2 games has not only been all starters, but all game changing starters. Not to mention guys are getting hurt in game as well. 

With Suggs, CJ, Yanda, Stanley and SSS playing in the last 2 games, this team has a great chance of closing those guys out. If Jimmy doesn't leave the NYG game it's probably a win. Now we can't play the what if game and I know everybody just wants to see the team win, but guys have to develop and injuries really hurt them in that development. Remember a guy like ZDS was drafted to replace McPhee's role, not Suggs but when Suggs goes down with injury it throws a wrench in the plans because now you're asking ZDS to be more than just a rush specialist like Mcphee was. That's basically happening throughout the entire team 

Again can't play the what if game, but if this team is 5-2 with wins vs both New York teams, are we even having this conversation?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

37 minutes ago, Edgar said:

A lot of caveats to be sure. I'm usually less interested in WR and more interested in O line and defense in terms of the draft but it's an interesting question or case study.

Pittsburgh I believe has invested in Coates and Wheaton...both third rounders, I believe.

Giants drafted Shepard and Beckham. Vikings, Dolphins (yes, I know you said good), Texans, ....Packers? Probably more. 

Ok, since you brought up a cpl decent examples - lets take it a step further, and analyze... how has investing multiple resources into the position actually helped those teams??

NY you would say, yes theyve gotten great returns on theres. But, theyve ignored the D bc of it and its been their achilles heel. Theyve been a significantly worse team since they stopped focusing on their D (and won 2 SBs) and focused their assets on weapons. Eli was a 2x SB champ with a bargain FA add in Plaxico, and a bunch of lower tier guys like Mario Manningham, David Tyree, Steve Smith. Hakeem Nicks was the 1 guy they really drafted high and contributed.

Dolphins drafted Parker and Landry, and have stunk.

Vikings have only draft Cordarelle Patterson high in recent years, and hes been largely ineffective. Again, its been their defensive investments that have made them competitive when they have been.

Texans have. But Hopkins so far is the only one you can really call a success. Fuller is TBD. After a strong start has now completely fallen off of late, Strong hasnt done anything outside one game, and Posey was a bust. It hasnt led to any success for them. 

Packers took Ty Montgomery, Randall Cobb, and Davanta Adams. Cobbs really been the only one I'd call a success. The others have failed to really make their mark and contribute; and when Jordy's been out or underperforming their offense has looked lost. So, a 33% success rate at best with early picks? 

Wheaton and Coates were both 3rds, but Bryant was the best of the bunch in the 4th. Crap shoot. And both are completely ineffective if not playing across from the best receiver in the game.... who was taken in the 6th

 

So, from the records of most teams, in a 5 year span you have to invest 3-4 of your top picks at WR to get 1 significant weapon and 1 complimentary piece if you're lucky. To me, it just highlights how much of a crapshoot it is. And the fact that none have really amounted to success for any of them. Take away the Packers and Steelers (who happen to have 2 of the best QBs in the game) and not one team is successful. 

And it kind of dispels the whole, QB's make receivers notion. Bc even with several high picks invested, Rodgers and Ben arent getting a whole lot out of those guys.

[Ravensfan23]

21 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I agree with your point on Flacco and weapons. We've dedicated the largest portion of our cap to him, and to me it then makes sense to hitch our horses there and make every effort to surround him with the best possible talent. IMO weve got a championship defense right now (and this is the tough part, bc we have this defense by investing significant resources recently), and with even a slightly above average offense would be serious playoff contenders.

But, most of the successful teams dont invest high draft picks in the WR position. I think part of it is just the nature of the position - its arguably one of the biggest leaps from the college game to the NFL. A lot of college receivers look great getting by on athleticism and playing against inferior competition in the secondary, and then crap the bed in the NFL when route running and technique become necessary to beat the level of corners you face. 

On 11/2/2016 at 11:10 PM, kjbmore said:

give the man weapons and let him carry us

 

Here's my thing.You definitely have to give Flacco weapons, but did the Ravens not attempt to do so? You draft a 1st round WR in 2015 and follow up with a 2nd round TE who was considered the best in that class. You follow that season up by bringing in Wallace, stockpiling the RB and TE positions. Even after signing Wallace, you draft Moore pretty high in the 4th round and despite many seemingly hating the pick, you went out and got the nation's leading TD scorer in Reynolds. On top of that, you look to shore up the Oline, after trading for and re-signing to a long term deal the guy you thought would be your franchise LT, you draft one, you don't just sit back and promote in house at LG after losing KO, you draft a guy who competes and wins the job in Lewis. Even though Camp was a 7th round pick, he's a guy who has the potential to be one of the best slot guys in the NFL and that fact that he had 15 teams reaching out to him for workouts after injuries forced the Ravens to cut him shows that people see his value. So again they are adding talent, the issue is that the top level talent(Perriman and Maxx) you hoped would be able to carry the team dealt with injuries their first 2 years. The young oline you've built for Joe, struggling with injuries. A healthy Wagner is a really good RT, Stanley seems to be a stud and Lewis is shaping up to be a really good interior lineman. These guys just have to get healthy and learn to play together. 

In terms of forethought vs being reactive. You can't draft to every position in the draft. You only have 7-10 picks in most cases. So if you are drafting a guy like CJ, Timmy and Brooks to build strength in your defense up the middle again, it's hard to draft a guy to possibility replace Torrey in any round another than the 4-7. Remember they traded back into that 2014 draft to select Camp and did their best to re-sign Torrey but he priced out. The Ravens drafted a RB in the 4th round or higher in 4 of the last 5 drafts, all 5 if you count Juice as a RB. Not to mention you add a 24 year old former 3rd round pick in West so when Forsett starting showing his age, you have horses to take over the running game. Is that not forethought? I view drafting like many view the oline. It's said you can call holding on every play, but it's only holding when the olineman gets caught. Well with the draft, regardless of when and how a guy is selected, if he plays well people love the pick, if he doesn't people don't. But you probably could find fault in every pick if you want to. 

[Edgar]

23 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Ok, since you brought up a cpl decent examples - lets take it a step further, and analyze... how has investing multiple resources into the position actually helped those teams??

NY you would say, yes theyve gotten great returns on theres. But, theyve ignored the D bc of it and its been their achilles heel. Theyve been a significantly worse team since they stopped focusing on their D (and won 2 SBs) and focused their assets on weapons. Eli was a 2x SB champ with a bargain FA add in Plaxico, and a bunch of lower tier guys like Mario Manningham, David Tyree, Steve Smith. Hakeem Nicks was the 1 guy they really drafted high and contributed.

Dolphins drafted Parker and Landry, and have stunk.

Vikings have only draft Cordarelle Patterson high in recent years, and hes been largely ineffective. Again, its been their defensive investments that have made them competitive when they have been.

Texans have. But Hopkins so far is the only one you can really call a success. Fuller is TBD. After a strong start has now completely fallen off of late, Strong hasnt done anything outside one game, and Posey was a bust. It hasnt led to any success for them. 

Packers took Ty Montgomery, Randall Cobb, and Davanta Adams. Cobbs really been the only one I'd call a success. The others have failed to really make their mark and contribute; and when Jordy's been out or underperforming their offense has looked lost. So, a 33% success rate at best with early picks? 

Wheaton and Coates were both 3rds, but Bryant was the best of the bunch in the 4th. Crap shoot. And both are completely ineffective if not playing across from the best receiver in the game.... who was taken in the 6th

 

So, from the records of most teams, in a 5 year span you have to invest 3-4 of your top picks at WR to get 1 significant weapon and 1 complimentary piece if you're lucky. To me, it just highlights how much of a crapshoot it is. And the fact that none have really amounted to success for any of them. Take away the Packers and Steelers (who happen to have 2 of the best QBs in the game) and not one team is successful. 

And it kind of dispels the whole, QB's make receivers notion. Bc even with several high picks invested, Rodgers and Ben arent getting a whole lot out of those guys.

It's certainly a matter of selecting the RIGHT receiver and I think matching his talent to your QB. It also comes down to Ozzie's philosophical bent in constructing the team. 

Not sure I have an opinion on what the answer is. That is to say, an opinion on whether or not the team would be better off now, having taken Jarvis Landry over Jernigan, to list just one example. 

Vikings selected Treadwell by the way.

 

 

[nextgen_RavensFan]

This post answered a lot of my questions and is why i loved this board. I have long wondered why our team's talent has been paper thin over the last few years.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

29 minutes ago, Edgar said:

It's certainly a matter of selecting the RIGHT receiver and I think matching his talent to your QB. It also comes down to Ozzie's philosophical bent in constructing the team. 

Not sure I have an opinion on what the answer is. That is to say, an opinion on whether or not the team would be better off now, having taken Jarvis Landry over Jernigan, to list just one example. 

Vikings selected Treadwell by the way.

 

 

You're right on Treadwell... but that only exacerbates the point. Hes was the consensus best receiver and hasnt done jack. Now, he definitely could turn out to be great - im not one to judge a draft pick this early. But as another teams who fits the criteria, as of now the returns are insignificant really... and to further it, their best WR pick came in later rounds.

I guess my thing is this - yes, the elite of the elite WRs tend to be taken more frequently in the 1st. Beckham, DT, Megatron, Cooks, Dez, Evans, Cooper, Hopkins, Julio, etc...

It's much more rare to find that elite guy, like a Brown, late in the draft.

But, its rare to find those guys period. Youre lucky if maybe 1 guy per draft reaches that level. And, being lucky enough to be the team that gets the guy who becomes the legit #1 game breaker is slim and none. It significantly increases if you're in say, the top 10, but even then theres an element of luck involved.

However, and id have to dig into this more to really prove it, the rate of return for guys that become solid contributors... guys who play a pretty significant role on competitive teams... your low end #1's, good #2's, slot guys, etc... seem to come just as regularly out of the middle to late rounds, as they do at the top.

And, since we've never really been in position (outside of Dez) to really get any of the elite of the elite guys that were viewed as sure things, or wouldve had to give up a boat load of picks to acquire one (like Atl... which btw set them back a good 4-5 years) it just doesnt make sense to keep firing our best shots and hoping.

We took a shot on Perriman, partially bc he fell in our lap, partially bc all our higher rated players were taken, and partially bc of need. But, hes a guy that fits the prototype of what the Elite Receivers have looked and played like. So, when that chance is there we've pulled the trigger.

Otherwise, we've taken upside guys late. And it hasnt panned out very well most of the team, but it hasnt panned out very well for the teams investing higher picks either. Chris Moore or Wheaton? Idk. I bet Moore would do better next to Brown than Wheaton has honestly. Perriman or Coates? Neithers had enough time, but Perrimans at least shown flashes of being an elite receiver. Doing things most cant.

 

We've been a successful, winning franchise, even in the modern game doing it the way we have. Taking a shot at a WR high in the draft when we think hes worth it, and otherwise supplementing the offense with late developmental picks and vet FA's. It's worked. And, I think, still works with health, and consistency on offense. I mean - Mason, Housh to an extent, Boldin and SSS all were wins imo. And the stretch from Mason to Boldin was largely bc our QB and weapons had a consistent offensive philosophy in which to grow together. We knew the exact skill set we wanted in our WR, and what would be successful.

It's not a coincidence we went right after Boldin once Mase was gone... and then to SSS once we let Boldin go. And, if not for the injuries, SSS would be one of the best WRs in the league the past 2 years.

[kjbmore]

4 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

How many WRs have NE, Cin, Pitt, Sea, Den, Atl, Dal, KC, Minn, Oak, etc... drafted in the first 3 rounds in the past 5 years?

Name a good team that has spent more than 1, maybe 2 picks on WR in the 1st 3 rounds in recent history.

Cardinals - Floyd 1st 2012, Brown 3rd 2014, plus a few later round picks through the 5 year span

Throw in David Johnson in the 3rd 2015

All while you have one of the best receivers in the game.

Respect Arians as a coach. Cardinals when they're rolling are one of the most explosive offences around.