Ravens Woes...4 Years of Poor Drafting-No Depth? - Brent Harris

[rmcjacket23]

41 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

BMoreBird22 and I were talking about this a while back but the thing is, when have we ever invested a high draft pick in a CB? In the last five years, the highest we've ever gone for a CB is Jimmy Smith in 2011. I like what the Bengals, Texans, and Broncos have done with the secondary. Even when CB is not their biggest need, they still invest. In the event that a starter goes down, they have someone to take their place. Depth at CB has been a problem for us and we seem to relient on Jimmy's health. Take 2012 for Example, depth with Jimmy Smith and Corey Graham allowed us to move on with Webb going down to injury. Because we had someone waiting behind Webb to take over, his injury wasn't as devastating as it could have been. 

I agree that we haven't invested high draft picks at corner, but the problem is that high draft picks in recent history have been a total crap shoot. Like its pretty much a coin flip or worse that you get even a serviceable corner in the first round anymore.

Look at the teams you listed:

1. Denver basically bought most of their secondary. They bought Talib, Ward, and Stewart. Chris Harris was a UDFA, and Roby was a recent 1st round pick.

So basically their top 5 DBs include a 1st round pick, a UDFA, and 3 FA acquisitions. Not exactly "homegrown".

2. Houston did draft Kareem Jackson in the 1st round, but they also bought Joseph from the Bengals and their safeties are horrible.

3. The Bengals certainly draft a ton of corners, but I also think part of that is because they've whiffed on a few as well.

There's only a handful of good secondaries in the league I see that are largely comprised of "homegrown" talent. Most of them have a mixture of FA acquisitions, a high draft pick or two, and some mid-round draft picks. 

While I agree corner has been a weakness for us, I would easily argue that safety has been a position of much greater weakness for the last three seasons prior to this one. And we used two draft picks in the first 3 rounds on players there (Elam and Brooks), with neither working out that well.

[usmccharles]

2 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

BMoreBird22 and I were talking about this a while back but the thing is, when have we ever invested a high draft pick in a CB? In the last five years, the highest we've ever gone for a CB is Jimmy Smith in 2011. I like what the Bengals, Texans, and Broncos have done with the secondary. Even when CB is not their biggest need, they still invest. In the event that a starter goes down, they have someone to take their place. Depth at CB has been a problem for us and we seem to relient on Jimmy's health. Take 2012 for Example, depth with Jimmy Smith and Corey Graham allowed us to move on with Webb going down to injury. Because we had someone waiting behind Webb to take over, his injury wasn't as devastating as it could have been. 

I think we really messed up by not taking a CB with our second rounder, im not even saying that by comparing the production from KC

[Drew P]

56 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

I think we really messed up by not taking a CB with our second rounder, im not even saying that by comparing the production from KC

I typically don't chime in on the coulda, woulda, shoulda, draft hindsight debate but I thought for sure Mack was the guy.

Just his attitude alone is something that's missing from this D since the departure of Ray and Ed.

[usmccharles]

4 minutes ago, Drew P said:

I typically don't chime in on the coulda, woulda, shoulda, draft hindsight debate but I thought for sure Mack was the guy.

Just his attitude alone is something that's missing from this D since the departure of Ray and Ed.

Alexander? How has he played?

[kjbmore]

I think we'll be picking above 20 this year - so in accordance with the theory being touted we should pick up another quality piece.

if this is what oz needs to be successful - I'd much rather we package up picks to move up into that range and grab somebody we truly like than sit on our hands and see who's leftover for us to pick, which doesn't seem to be working great

Would like the FO to say - ok who do we really like that's realistically in our range - lets work the board and get that guy - even if it doesn't fit our needs

we needed a safety we took Elam, we needed s recvr n a TE we took - breshad n maxx - maybe need to get back to our favourite guy - take him in the first 2 or 3 rounds, we might be a bit off contending lets just stockpile talent regardless of position (within reason) - we might look a lot different 

maybe we just have to actually start taking the players we like in the higher rounds - instead of needs based and then throw some late round picks at the areas of need and hope we turn up some players - which oz generally does in the later rounds 

Edited November 2, 2016 by kjbmore

[usmccharles]

12 minutes ago, kjbmore said:

I think we'll be picking above 20 this year - so in accordance with the theory being touted we should pick up another quality piece.

if this is what oz needs to be successful - I'd much rather we package up picks to move up into that range and grab somebody we truly like than sit on our hands and see who's leftover for us to pick, which doesn't seem to be working great

Would like the FO to say - ok who do we really like that's realistically in our range - lets work the board and get that guy - even if it doesn't fit our needs

we needed a safety we took Elam, we needed s recvr n a TE we took - breshad n maxx - maybe need to get back to our favourite guy - take him in the first 2 or 3 rounds, we might be a bit off contending lets just stockpile talent regardless of position (within reason) - we might look a lot different 

maybe we just have to actually start taking the players we like in the higher rounds - instead of needs based and then throw some late round picks at the areas of need and hope we turn up some players - which oz generally does in the later rounds 

Im not saying Oz needs to do that to be successful but that's one things that's always bother me.  I do think our FO has been to cautious about giving up picks in the past.  For once I would like them to be aggressive and go get some one they want.  Like how some on here think Kevin Dodd was our target, I would of loved to see us trade up to get him.  I think we sit back and wait just to keep our picks and end up with quantity over quality some times.

[kjbmore]

100% we tout that the more tickets we have in the lottery the more chance we have for success - bit i mean look at some of our picks - Robert Myers, gone, Keenan Reynolds, ps id like to see picks packaged up to manoeuvre up the board - I'd like to see oz be aggressive and go get his guy

 

think we need to see were closer to being top 5 pick side than, than SB side - need to build that core with elite playmakers

[FlocksGottaFeed]

Michael Pierce ranked top 10 in rookie class. Stanley will most likely be in Pro Bowl on his return from injury. Not a bad rookie class - draft or not.

[Ravensfan23]

15 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Im not saying Oz needs to do that to be successful but that's one things that's always bother me.  I do think our FO has been to cautious about giving up picks in the past.  For once I would like them to be aggressive and go get some one they want.  Like how some on here think Kevin Dodd was our target, I would of loved to see us trade up to get him.  I think we sit back and wait just to keep our picks and end up with quantity over quality some times.

What has he done to warrant going up to get him tho? It's easy for fans to say be aggressive and trade up to get that guy. But if that guy is not worth it in the FO eyes, how can you fault them. Matt Judon has outperformed Kevin Dodd thus far and the Ravens didn't have to give up anything for him. Everybody was screaming to get the stud of a talent in Myles Jack. Ozzie was old among other things he was called for passing on Jack and trading down to get Correa. Well Jack and Correa have basically the same stats. Jack has 9 tackles and a pass defended, while Correa has 6 tackles, 1FF and 1 pass defended. Both only cracked the starting lineup due to injury at their position. 

So instead of trading up and potentially missing out on guys like Dixon and Young to nab Dodd, you don't and get the same production from a 4th round pick. Instead of doing what fans wanna do and get the "stud talent" of Jack, you trade back and get Correa, Moore and Judon out of the deal. I reall can't see how anyone would have issue with how the 2nd round played out. 

Fans always have the answers after the draft. It's so easy to bash Ozzie because as fans we're never held accountable for the times we were wrong. Everyone always has the answers until they are wrong and it's just forgotten. 

[usmccharles]

3 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

What has he done to warrant going up to get him tho? It's easy for fans to say be aggressive and trade up to get that guy. But if that guy is not worth it in the FO eyes, how can you fault them. Matt Judon has outperformed Kevin Dodd thus far and the Ravens didn't have to give up anything for him. Everybody was screaming to get the stud of a talent in Myles Jack. Ozzie was old among other things he was called for passing on Jack and trading down to get Correa. Well Jack and Correa have basically the same stats. Jack has 9 tackles and a pass defended, while Correa has 6 tackles, 1FF and 1 pass defended. Both only cracked the starting lineup due to injury at their position. 

So instead of trading up and potentially missing out on guys like Dixon and Young to nab Dodd, you don't and get the same production from a 4th round pick. Instead of doing what fans wanna do and get the "stud talent" of Jack, you trade back and get Correa, Moore and Judon out of the deal. I reall can't see how anyone would have issue with how the 2nd round played out. 

Fans always have the answers after the draft. It's so easy to bash Ozzie because as fans we're never held accountable for the times we were wrong. Everyone always has the answers until they are wrong and it's just forgotten. 

Im merely speaking of the circumstance and not the players specifically, it was just an example.  I have no clue what Dodd has done nor does that matter if we are basing this off the time OF the draft.  I like the potential of who we drafted in the later wrong, just using in example.

[The Raven]

8 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Also, if you think run D doesnt matter... a little food for though.

2015 Run defense:

1. Seattle

3. Denver

4. Carolina

5. Pittsburgh

6. Arizona

7. Cinci

8. KC

9. New England

 

2014:

2. Denver

3. Seattle

4. Baltimore (when we nearly beat the Pats)

6. Pittsburgh

9. New England

 

2012:

2. Pittsburgh

3. Denver

4. San Fran

9. New England

 

Over the past few years even, the contenders all have top run defenses. It is a passing league to an extent, BUT if you can MAKE a team pass it and be one dimensional, stopping the pass becomes a lot easier. If you cant stop the run you wont stop the pass. The good teams show that, and still make it an emphasis.

The good pass defenses that give up the run, typically arent good teams. The ones that stop the run, typically also are successful against the pass.

Seattle, Denver, Pitt, NE, Cinci, Philly now, Dallas, KC, Minnesota... all built inside out.

Strong interior line that can rush, great MLB play that can cover, stuff the run, get sideline to sideline, rush the passer. Cinci, Ne, Seattle, Philly, Dallas, and Minnesota dont have the greatest pass rushers though Minn's are balling out this year... 

We're aready a top D overall. But we could use one young pass rusher, and a 2nd corner. If we get that, we're going to be a great D for another couple years.

Yup.

If you can't stop a team's running game, you can't stop them at all. 

[usmccharles]

8 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Also, if you think run D doesnt matter... a little food for though.

2015 Run defense:

1. Seattle

3. Denver

4. Carolina

5. Pittsburgh

6. Arizona

7. Cinci

8. KC

9. New England

2014:

2. Denver

3. Seattle

4. Baltimore (when we nearly beat the Pats)

6. Pittsburgh

9. New England

2012:

2. Pittsburgh

3. Denver

4. San Fran

9. New England

I think it would of helped for context if you would of put who were the top Pass D, im stepping out of my office right now or I would. 

[Ravensfan23]

13 minutes ago, kjbmore said:

100% we tout that the more tickets we have in the lottery the more chance we have for success - bit i mean look at some of our picks - Robert Myers, gone, Keenan Reynolds, ps id like to see picks packaged up to manoeuvre up the board - I'd like to see oz be aggressive and go get his guy

 

think we need to see were closer to being top 5 pick side than, than SB side - need to build that core with elite playmakers

But you aren't going into a draft thinking every pick will hit anyway. So you can't highlight developmental guys like Myers and Reynolds as negatives. Reynolds was more of a long term pick imo. Which to some extent they all are, but I think the only way the Ravens saw him making the team this year was at Punt Returner and allow him to develop into a slot WR. Reports are he's doing a great job and if Camp isn't re-signed it could be very possible that you see Reynolds return kicks this year. He's a potential playmaker in the later that could become a dynamic RS and Slot guy. 

 

[FlocksGottaFeed]

9 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

But you aren't going into a draft thinking every pick will hit anyway. So you can't highlight developmental guys like Myers and Reynolds as negatives. Reynolds was more of a long term pick imo. Which to some extent they all are, but I think the only way the Ravens saw him making the team this year was at Punt Returner and allow him to develop into a slot WR. Reports are he's doing a great job and if Camp isn't re-signed it could be very possible that you see Reynolds return kicks this year. He's a potential playmaker in the later that could become a dynamic RS and Slot guy. 

 

Absolutely agreed. With his will and high football IQ, we could be looking at a Mohamed Sanu-like production receiver from the slot. This is chess.

[Ravensfan23]

14 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Im merely speaking of the circumstance and not the players specifically, it was just an example.  I have no clue what Dodd has done nor does that matter if we are basing this off the time OF the draft.  I like the potential of who we drafted in the later wrong, just using in example.

That's exactly the point. Nobody knows what these guys will do or how they will fit to this team "at the time of the draft", So to say Ozzie should be aggressive and trade up for a certain player, who's to say that player is worth trading to move up and pick him? What if Ozzie traded up to get Dante Fowler last year, how jacked would this fan base had been. However a year and a half latter he's struggling and would probably be viewed as one of those guys that Ozzie missed on and many would call him a bust. 

What about trading up to get Kevin White who was a fan favor or even DeVante Parker, what if Ozzie was aggressive and went up to get those guys instead of waiting on Perriman? What if Ozzie was aggressive and traded for Melvin Gordon or Todd Gurley, i'm sure the fan base would be excited to have another potential stud RB, but looking at those guys now, would they have fixed the issues of this offense? My answer is no and a certain group of fans would be calling them bust and screaming for Ozzie's head. I can go on and on all day with both good and bad trade up scenarios. The point is, we just don't know what these guys are coming out of college nor what they'll develop into years down the line. Does Ozzie have to answer for his misses, sure. However he has a proven track record and I think that fans are only questioning him because of the loses. But then the question has to become are the losses a reflection of injuries or lack of talent

[kjbmore]

The injuries are a reflection of lack of talent which is a reflection of poor drafting

when your best players are Steve smith, Suggs, dumervill, weddle - all old guys - don't be surprised when your talent is sitting

why are they our best players? Because we haven't found or in Steve smiths case - even really tried to find their replacements or even peers to share the load

Edited November 2, 2016 by kjbmore

[Ravensfan23]

18 minutes ago, FlocksGottaFeed said:

Absolutely agreed. With his will and high football IQ, we could be looking at a Mohamed Sanu-like production receiver from the slot. This is chess.

That's lost in this microwave era. Everybody wants there meal fast and now, nobody wants to take the time to see things develop or grow over time. Oh Reynolds as a 6th rd pick couldn't even make the team, it was a horrible pick. No it's a pick that's just not ready to contribute right now, but doesn't mean he won't every contribute. The Ravens have been searching for a dynamic returner and slot guy for a while and he could very well be it for years to come. 

[FlocksGottaFeed]

4 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

That's lost in this microwave era. Everybody wants there meal fast and now, nobody wants to take the time to see things develop or grow over time. Oh Reynolds as a 6th rd pick couldn't even make the team, it was a horrible pick. No it's a pick that's just not ready to contribute right now, but doesn't mean he won't every contribute. The Ravens have been searching for a dynamic returner and slot guy for a while and he could very well be it for years to come. 

^^^^^True, true.

[kjbmore]

9 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

That's exactly the point. Nobody knows what these guys will do or how they will fit to this team "at the time of the draft", So to say Ozzie should be aggressive and trade up for a certain player, who's to say that player is worth trading to move up and pick him? What if Ozzie traded up to get Dante Fowler last year, how jacked would this fan base had been. However a year and a half latter he's struggling and would probably be viewed as one of those guys that Ozzie missed on and many would call him a bust. 

What about trading up to get Kevin White who was a fan favor or even DeVante Parker, what if Ozzie was aggressive and went up to get those guys instead of waiting on Perriman? What if Ozzie was aggressive and traded for Melvin Gordon or Todd Gurley, i'm sure the fan base would be excited to have another potential stud RB, but looking at those guys now, would they have fixed the issues of this offense? My answer is no and a certain group of fans would be calling them bust and screaming for Ozzie's head. I can go on and on all day with both good and bad trade up scenarios. The point is, we just don't know what these guys are coming out of college nor what they'll develop into years down the line. Does Ozzie have to answer for his misses, sure. However he has a proven track record and I think that fans are only questioning him because of the loses. But then the question has to become are the losses a reflection of injuries or lack of talent

I'm not saying necessarily trade up to fill a need - I'm saying if they like somebody irrespective of need - don't be scared to go get that guy.

i trust ozzies assessment in that instance 

we tried to move up for Ramsey - oz obviously saw something - look at Ramsey balling, make that move stick

if oz makes a move to grab he's guy I'll live with it

did we really need Mosley when we grabbed him? 

All hindsight anyway, just like to see us be more aggressive as opposed to we seem quite passive, trading back, stockpiling picks, playing it safe

= quantity not sure about the quality

 

[JoeyFlex5]

27 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

That's lost in this microwave era. Everybody wants there meal fast and now, nobody wants to take the time to see things develop or grow over time. Oh Reynolds as a 6th rd pick couldn't even make the team, it was a horrible pick. No it's a pick that's just not ready to contribute right now, but doesn't mean he won't every contribute. The Ravens have been searching for a dynamic returner and slot guy for a while and he could very well be it for years to come. 

I just don't understand how a qb who had never returned a kick, and had a really bad fumbling problem in college, could be viewed as any kind of possibility as a returner. 

I don't see how a guy who hasn't caught a pass or truly ran a route in all of college could be viewed as a future wr. 

Although it has happened before in rare cases, and the 6th round is where these experiments happen, so I won't complain. But you can't say it was a football move, I promise you most of the rationale behind that pick was a character thing and a feel good story thing.

[kjbmore]

9 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

That's lost in this microwave era. Everybody wants there meal fast and now, nobody wants to take the time to see things develop or grow over time. Oh Reynolds as a 6th rd pick couldn't even make the team, it was a horrible pick. No it's a pick that's just not ready to contribute right now, but doesn't mean he won't every contribute. The Ravens have been searching for a dynamic returner and slot guy for a while and he could very well be it for years to come. 

pinning our hopes on 6th & 7th round picks is the reason we're still looking for a return and slot guy, Michael Campanaro, just need to spend some decent picks on it, sterling shepherd - available after our first trade back,  Stefon Diggs - 5th rounder Jamison crowder - 4th, Tyler Lockett - did he have a 2 touchdown game against us? Guys that were just there for the taking

No we're hoping reynolds a 6th round - converted qb will catch fire and be our guy or Campanaro will miracously go from mr glass to iron man - well we'll still be waiting for all that promise to play out, Hester will probably still be fumbling punts and Harbs will be looking for a new job

 

 

[kjbmore]

4 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I just don't understand how a qb who had never returned a kick, and had a really bad fumbling problem in college, could be viewed as any kind of possibility as a returner. 

I don't see how a guy who hasn't caught a pass or truly ran a route in all of college could be viewed as a future wr. 

Although it has happened before in rare cases, and the 6th round is where these experiments happen, so I won't complain. But you can't say it was a football move, I promise you most of the rationale behind that pick was a character thing and a feel good story thing.

100% - they rammed his story down our throats

never seen a 6th round pick get soo much airtime

 

[Ravensfan23]

35 minutes ago, kjbmore said:

The injuries are a reflection of lack of talent which is a reflection of poor drafting

when your best players are Steve smith, Suggs, dumervill, weddle - all old guys - don't be surprised when your talent is sitting

why are they our best players? Because we haven't found or in Steve smiths case - even really tried to find their replacements or even peers to share the load

No injuries are a reflection of injuries. Is it possible that the Ravens haven't found the replacement for Steve Smith yet because their 2015 1st round WR missed his entire rookie year after getting hurt in the 1st practice. Than followed up by getting hurt again to miss his 2nd training canp in 2 years? Is it possible that there is a 27 year old pass rusher in Chicago who was drafted to be Suggs replacement, but injuries lead to the Ravens not offering him a good enough deal to stay. Is it possible that ZDS could actually develop into a good pass rusher, or is he just a lost cause because after a 5.5 sack rookie season he has none so far? Is it possible that Judon is talented enough to be a strong pass rusher given more opportunities?

I'd point to Timmy, CJ, Jimmy, BW and Young as being talent we can look to as leading this defense into the future. Also not sure how the Ravens haven't even tried to find replacements, when you draft WR and TE in the 1st 2 rounds last year, draft a 4th rd WR this year, signed a FA WR and a TE as peers to help share the load as you say. 

This past draft the Ravens selected 4 players known for their ability to get after the QB, don't you think it'd be a good idea to allow these guys to develop, or should we just run Ozzie out of town because they aren't playing up to Suggs and Doom's level 7 games into the season? 

[kjbmore]

3 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

No injuries are a reflection of injuries. Is it possible that the Ravens haven't found the replacement for Steve Smith yet because their 2015 1st round WR missed his entire rookie year after getting hurt in the 1st practice. Than followed up by getting hurt again to miss his 2nd training canp in 2 years? Is it possible that there is a 27 year old pass rusher in Chicago who was drafted to be Suggs replacement, but injuries lead to the Ravens not offering him a good enough deal to stay. Is it possible that ZDS could actually develop into a good pass rusher, or is he just a lost cause because after a 5.5 sack rookie season he has none so far? Is it possible that Judon is talented enough to be a strong pass rusher given more opportunities?

I'd point to Timmy, CJ, Jimmy, BW and Young as being talent we can look to as leading this defense into the future. Also not sure how the Ravens haven't even tried to find replacements, when you draft WR and TE in the 1st 2 rounds last year, draft a 4th rd WR this year, signed a FA WR and a TE as peers to help share the load as you say. 

This past draft the Ravens selected 4 players known for their ability to get after the QB, don't you think it'd be a good idea to allow these guys to develop, or should we just run Ozzie out of town because they aren't playing up to Suggs and Doom's level 7 games into the season? 

I thought we drafted Perriman to replace Torrey? And we brought in Wallace in case Perriman dinged up again and we just tripled down and grabbed Moore - still don't have a shifty slot guy or a returner - that doesn't seem to add up - but it's ok we get Hester and run pitta out of the slot

so then we grabbed one guy to replace 2 players and then he kept getting dinged and rightfully so we moved on, now we're pinning our hopes on rookies and 2nd year players - 4th and 5th rounders at that, our 2nd round pick can't get on the field, to replace guys who have been perennial pro bowlers, defensive player of the year guys

think we threw more quantity at an area of concern - not sure about the quality

im not really seeing succession planning until it's too late 

we just seem to be a couple steps behind the eightball 

 

[Ravensfan23]

1 hour ago, kjbmore said:

I'm not saying necessarily trade up to fill a need - I'm saying if they like somebody irrespective of need - don't be scared to go get that guy.

i trust ozzies assessment in that instance 

we tried to move up for Ramsey - oz obviously saw something - look at Ramsey balling, make that move stick

if oz makes a move to grab he's guy I'll live with it

did we really need Mosley when we grabbed him? 

All hindsight anyway, just like to see us be more aggressive as opposed to we seem quite passive, trading back, stockpiling picks, playing it safe

= quantity not sure about the quality

 

This is the problem. That playing it safe narrative is something that comes from fans and it's only a topic because the team is losing. But again are they losing because of drafting or injuries. Who's to say the quantity isn't quality? The top of drafts are so filled with fluff that it's ridiculous. Often times it's not even worth it because the guy that many fans want to trade up for is just a big named college guys, but there's no way of knowing if that was a guy Ozzie wanted.

Ok make the Ramsey move stick, then what, go with Hurst or Lewis at LT? Try to convince Monroe to get his passion for the game back? So we do whatever it takes to make the Ramsey deal done, ok great. Is Ramsey more important to this team than a potential franchise LT? I'm a huge FSU fan and a Ramsey fan(I think Derwin James will be better) but I say no. This defense would be sick with Jimmy and Ramsey locking down the outside(probably wouldn't have drafted Young), but one of the reasons why the Ravens have been such a great FO is because they don't do bad deals often. 

[usmccharles]

1 hour ago, Ravensfan23 said:

That's exactly the point. Nobody knows what these guys will do or how they will fit to this team "at the time of the draft", So to say Ozzie should be aggressive and trade up for a certain player, who's to say that player is worth trading to move up and pick him? What if Ozzie traded up to get Dante Fowler last year, how jacked would this fan base had been. However a year and a half latter he's struggling and would probably be viewed as one of those guys that Ozzie missed on and many would call him a bust. 

What about trading up to get Kevin White who was a fan favor or even DeVante Parker, what if Ozzie was aggressive and went up to get those guys instead of waiting on Perriman? What if Ozzie was aggressive and traded for Melvin Gordon or Todd Gurley, i'm sure the fan base would be excited to have another potential stud RB, but looking at those guys now, would they have fixed the issues of this offense? My answer is no and a certain group of fans would be calling them bust and screaming for Ozzie's head. I can go on and on all day with both good and bad trade up scenarios. The point is, we just don't know what these guys are coming out of college nor what they'll develop into years down the line. Does Ozzie have to answer for his misses, sure. However he has a proven track record and I think that fans are only questioning him because of the loses. But then the question has to become are the losses a reflection of injuries or lack of talent

Yes, im not disagreeing with you, to an extent.  I understand that no one knows what they will become and i understand keeping more picks to increase your chance of hitting, but im just saying, id like to see us go get a guy thats coveted.  Would i want to trade what it would take to go get a guy like Mack would of costed us? no.  Would i of liked to see us move a couple spots to get Dez, yes.  I like to have all the picks most of the time, but here and there id like some moves.  I dont know if you pay attention to my posts but im an avid supporter of our FO, of course id always like to see us draft better and i trust Oz to make the right picks.  Im one of the guys saying lets give KC time before we judge, just saying i would of taken Alexander, but its not like i know what im talking about.  Pretty sure we moved up to get Oher, im glad we made the move, yea it didnt work out but at least we went after who our target was. 

[kjbmore]

Not sure what we do with the line in the event we draft Ramsey - it's just an example, same as people saying grab Dodd

i feel our whole approach is broken at present, the results are speaking for themselves

im just voicing ideas

[kjbmore]

5 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Yes, im not disagreeing with you, to an extent.  I understand that no one knows what they will become and i understand keeping more picks to increase your chance of hitting, but im just saying, id like to see us go get a guy thats coveted.  Would i want to trade what it would take to go get a guy like Mack would of costed us? no.  Would i of liked to see us move a couple spots to get Dez, yes.  I like to have all the picks most of the time, but here and there id like some moves.  I dont know if you pay attention to my posts but im an avid supporter of our FO, of course id always like to see us draft better and i trust Oz to make the right picks.  Im one of the guys saying lets give KC time before we judge, just saying i would of taken Alexander, but its not like i know what im talking about.  Pretty sure we moved up to get Oher, im glad we made the move, yea it didnt work out but at least we went after who our target was. 

Yeah pretty much what I'm thinking too, not talking bout moving up from 30 to 10 but when we picked at 36 it wouldn't have taken much to move back into the first, swap with a Seattle or Carolina or something - boom have our pick of ogbah, Dodd, jack, spence

come away with Stanley n our pick of pass rusher - we probably only have to swap 3rds 

[Ravensfan23]

41 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I just don't understand how a qb who had never returned a kick, and had a really bad fumbling problem in college, could be viewed as any kind of possibility as a returner. 

I don't see how a guy who hasn't caught a pass or truly ran a route in all of college could be viewed as a future wr. 

Although it has happened before in rare cases, and the 6th round is where these experiments happen, so I won't complain. But you can't say it was a football move, I promise you most of the rationale behind that pick was a character thing and a feel good story thing.

You answered your own question. Reynolds was basically a glorified RB in college and if you watch the guy in space or tight areas, his elusiveness and short area quickness was great. That's exactly what you look for in a return guys and a slot WR. The transition from QB to WR has had happened and with great success in some cases. 

I don't doubt that the feel good story aspect was a big part, the Ravens never hid that. People say that as if it was some sort of bad thing or a conspiracy the Ravens tried to cover up. Here's exactly what DeCosta said about Reynolds.

 

Quote

"He’s a special kid," DeCosta said. "He’s got just an electric personality about him. He’s everything that you want in a player, in terms of ability but also off the field."

So there is no doubt they wanted that type of person associated with this organization, I don't see the problem with that. But you're kidding yourself if you think the Ravens picked him knowing he would never be able to help them win on the field. You're kidding yourself if you don't think they scouted this guy and put a lot of weight in B. Mitchell's opinion as a collegiate QB turned NFL returner. You're kidding yourself if you don't think the Ravens saw him play making ability as the leading TD scorer in the NCAAF and hoped it could translate to this offense. 

[usmccharles]

17 minutes ago, kjbmore said:

Yeah pretty much what I'm thinking too, not talking bout moving up from 30 to 10 but when we picked at 36 it wouldn't have taken much to move back into the first, swap with a Seattle or Carolina or something - boom have our pick of ogbah, Dodd, jack, spence

come away with Stanley n our pick of pass rusher - we probably only have to swap 3rds 

Exactly what im saying.  Although,, im not sure how much it would have costed us to move up that far. 

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I just don't understand how a qb who had never returned a kick, and had a really bad fumbling problem in college, could be viewed as any kind of possibility as a returner. 

I don't see how a guy who hasn't caught a pass or truly ran a route in all of college could be viewed as a future wr. 

Although it has happened before in rare cases, and the 6th round is where these experiments happen, so I won't complain. But you can't say it was a football move, I promise you most of the rationale behind that pick was a character thing and a feel good story thing.

Yea, the Reynolds pick still confuses me.  Just made no sense other than hes a nice guy.  I really wanted Jakeem Grant, if you remember i talked about him all the time in the draft forum and he was still there when we took reynolds.