Ravens Woes...4 Years of Poor Drafting-No Depth? - Brent Harris

[jazz1988]

1 hour ago, balfan23 said:

Another issue has been the inability to bring in low-mid level veteran talent and have them be significant contributors, especially in the secondary. Guys like Josh Wilson, Pollard, Cary Williams and Graham ... all came in relatively cheap and, while not pro-bowl players, made significant contributions. 

We've rotated in countless secondary players over the past few years and little or nothing has stuck. We've just not had that magic in bringing in affordable players in the secondary and have them be anywhere close to effective. 

 

I dont think Powers has  been bad so far as the starting nickel corner.

[Wildabeast88]

On October 27, 2016 at 0:53 PM, The Raven said:

The issue, I think, is an issue of retaining our draft picks that pan out, more so than drafting talent.

Look back at the Super Bowl. Suggs, Ngata, Ray, Reed, Ray Rice, and Yanda, among others, who we drafted and retained.

And look at all the young playmakers we had on that roster that we didn't retain.

Kruger, Art Jones, Torrey Smith, Courtney Upshaw, etc... Hell, even Mike Oher wasn't super terrible, and he seems to have found a niche in Carolina. Webb and Jimmy have been retained but are chronically injured. As much as I was hard on Oher and Upshaw, they'd still be better than Hurst being at RT against the Giants and McClellan playing OLB against anyone. We all know I hate Torrey but he would have made a difference last year. 

This team looks very different if we were able to retain those guys.

True, we haven't drafted all that well, in the early rounds. Elam is looking like a bust. I think it's fair to say that now. Terrence Cody and Courtney Upshaw set our front seven back by three years each. My complaint with Ozzie is that he's still stuck in 2000, dreaming of Sam Adams and Goose clogging the middle with Burnett, McCrary, and Boulware wrecking the edges. When he drafted Elam, he saw the old fashioned box safety like Polamalu. When he drafted Terrence Cody, he saw Kelly Gregg 2.0. When he drafted Courtney Upshaw, he saw Jarrett Johnson. Those are all good players, but they are obsolete and outdated models.

His only forward thinking draft picks from 2009 to 2013 were Kindle and Kruger. We all know what happened to Kindle, and Kruger got jerked around by a defensive system that lacked an identity.

What we're missing in my opinion is quality players in the 27-31 age range. Guys that are old enough to be solid players and make plays but still young enough to not be slow and chronically hurt. I feel like all of our good players are under 25 or over 30. That's not a good place to be.

I get your point but what do Kruger, Smith, and Jones all have in common got overpaid and all are terrible were Jones and Kruger system players like all the LBs who got paid because they played next to Ray. Torrey wow has been awful and everyone on this forum crushed him for years 

[Wildabeast88]

On October 27, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Militant X 1 said:

I was watching Football Central on CSN earlier this morning and Julie Donaldson asked Brent Harris the question; "Is Flacco's contract the main reason why the Ravens haven't been able to bring in other players to help him out?"  Brent's response was interesting....

"Not the way the NFL works because you're the franchise Quarterback and you're going to make the most money on the team and, the way that the pie is divided, other teams deal with it just fine.  Now, maybe the fact that he doesn't have the go-to wide receiver certainly hurt him, maybe the fact that he's been without most of his offensive line this year?  But, I look at THE FACT THAT THIS TEAM HAS NOT DRAFTED WELL OVER THE LAST 4 YEARS!"

Brent goes on to say....

"If you look at the last 4 years, in the top 4 rounds, 25 players total; I only count 4 significant players out of those 4 drafts and that's: Ronnie Stanley, CJ Mosley, Timmy Jernigan and Brandon Williams.  Got a couple of other starters in there.  I see this as more of an issue of DEPTH.  It's not so much that Joe is taking up too much of the salary cap space.  I just think that they haven't done a great job of bringing the guys behind it-the DEPTH guys that you get through the draft that don't cost you a lot of money earlier in their career."

Brent clearly articulated what I was thinking from the standpoint; that I have always said that the present Ravens "personnel" (especially offensively) isn't as good as some would like to think they are or that we'd like them to be.  I believe we feel the effects of this poor "depth" that Brent mentions as soon as someone goes down.

What's your take on Brent's comments?

I still Think it's to early to even count this years players so that 25 comes down to 18 and honestly Lewis is starting Tavon Young has shown playmaking ability and shoot Perriman has only played a handful of games and Maxx has been hurt this year so he has missed almost half of he games its  to early to judge 15 and 16 drafts just yet unless you are the Cowboys with Zeke. Finally as i mentioned Wagner while he hasn't been as good since his injury has been a solid starter as has Juice all be it at an obsolete position. What about Crockett he was a starter. I just want to know does Brett expect everyone to be hall of famers I mean we are drafting starters which is the point of the draft so I'm a bit confused as what is a significant player

Edited October 28, 2016 by Wildabeast88

[Militant X 1]

7 hours ago, rdotc said:

Using Antonio Brown vs Torrey Smith as a justification for saying we don't draft or develop players well is like saying 31 other teams in the league can't draft or develop QBs because Tom Brady was a 6th rounder.

 

Or... teams cant draft or develop CBs outside of Seattle because of Richard Sherman.

 

Using a gigantic outlier as a basis for an argument is just silly and misleading.

You've missed the point of the comparison.

All things being equal; "How is it that a receiver taken 195th overall in the draft has far succeeded one that was taken 4 rounds higher and 58th overall?  Why such disparity between the two?"  

Could a reason for that possibly be that the Ravens coaching staff isn't as good at "developing" the drafted talent (in this case a wide receiver) as you think they are?

 

 

Edited October 28, 2016 by Militant X 1

[Ravenseconbeast]

2 hours ago, balfan23 said:

Another issue has been the inability to bring in low-mid level veteran talent and have them be significant contributors, especially in the secondary. Guys like Josh Wilson, Pollard, Cary Williams and Graham ... all came in relatively cheap and, while not pro-bowl players, made significant contributions. 

We've rotated in countless secondary players over the past few years and little or nothing has stuck. We've just not had that magic in bringing in affordable players in the secondary and have them be anywhere close to effective. 

People argue and commented on how much they hated Cary Williams, but when he was our #2/#3 he did a phenomenal job.   When injuries piled on, he became our #1, which is where he started to lose touch.   

We had players that exceeded expectation from Ozzie/FO's bargain pick ups.   Right now our latest 'bargain' is Lawrence guy for 2years/2million dollars.   We seem to hit them every year.   

Give our FO some credit.   They are doing heck of a lot better than most people think. 

[usmccharles]

On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 11:36 AM, The Raven said:

I think our cap has been tied down with contracts of aging players who didn't produce as much as they were paid to. Suggs and Dumervil are KILLING us right now with that. So much of our cap is invested in them and they have a combined, what, two sacks?

I think it's also because we struggle to develop some guys, too. Jah Reid comes to mind there.

Um, Suggs has 5 sacks in 6 games, he alone was on pace for a good season and that's without doom on the other side.  Maybe not DPOY but he was being productive. 

I think the main problem is just players not performing to their salaries.  Injuries.  I get frustrated when I see Jakeem Grant look awesome returning kicks when that guy was on the board but we take a guy like Renyolds who cant even make our team. 

[gtalk12]

56 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

 

I think the main problem is just players not performin

 

the answer is simple, we have not been healthy for years. Camp looked all the bit of a big steal at WR but he at this point just can not stay on the field. Maxx Williams showed a bunch of promise but he went down as well. We lost a full year of Perrimans time, combine that with the fact that Boyle has also been suspended. Carl Davis? Injury. Matt Elam? Injury....regardless of how we felt about him, he still has not been on the field enough to know what he can do.....

 

 

[usmccharles]

1 minute ago, gtalk12 said:

 

the answer is simple, we have not been healthy for years. Camp looked all the bit of a big steal at WR but he at this point just can not stay on the field. Maxx Williams showed a bunch of promise but he went down as well. We lost a full year of Perrimans time, combine that with the fact that Boyle has also been suspended. Carl Davis? Injury. Matt Elam? Injury....regardless of how we felt about him, he still has not been on the field enough to know what he can do.....

You do realized, I mentioned injuries, right?

[The Raven]

2 hours ago, Wildabeast88 said:

I get your point but what do Kruger, Smith, and Jones all have in common got overpaid and all are terrible were Jones and Kruger system players like all the LBs who got paid because they played next to Ray. Torrey wow has been awful and everyone on this forum crushed him for years 

Actually Kruger continued to be effective with the Browns, recording 9 and 11 sack seasons on one of the worst rosters in the NFL. Jonesy probably would've done better here than there. Same with Torrey.

I fully realize that they were overpaid but the thing is that I'd rather have Kruger and his contract than Dumervil and his, at the moment.

26 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Um, Suggs has 5 sacks in 6 games, he alone was on pace for a good season and that's without doom on the other side.  Maybe not DPOY but he was being productive. 

I think the main problem is just players not performing to their salaries.  Injuries.  I get frustrated when I see Jakeem Grant look awesome returning kicks when that guy was on the board but we take a guy like Renyolds who cant even make our team. 

Yeah, but outside of those five (coverage) sacks he produced little to no pressure at all and lacked any kind of speed. Those sacks look good on the stat sheet but he wasn't passing my eye test. If you actually watched him he was slow as molasses and ineffective. All of his sacks were coverage sacks that came five seconds or later after the snap.

[gtalk12]

5 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

You do realized, I mentioned injuries, right?

 

I only touched on the comment about players not performing, I am leaning mostly on injuries because in my opinion it begins and ends with health for us. I know you mentioned it before, I am just emphasizing on injuries more 

[usmccharles]

2 minutes ago, The Raven said:

Yeah, but outside of those five (coverage) sacks he produced little to no pressure at all and lacked any kind of speed. Those sacks look good on the stat sheet but he wasn't passing my eye test. If you actually watched him he was slow as molasses and ineffective. All of his sacks were coverage sacks that came five seconds or later after the snap.

Thats fine and all, just stating the facts, a sack is a sack.  Id rather him get coverage sacks then nothing, just means our secondary was doing their job.  But i wont argue he isnt his old self, obviously, hes 34 and had two achiles injuries. 

[usmccharles]

1 minute ago, gtalk12 said:

 

I only touched on the comment about players not performing, I am leaning mostly on injuries because in my opinion it begins and ends with health for us. I know you mentioned it before, I am just emphasizing on injuries more 

I get you, its just that i said injuries about 4 words after what you quoted me.  If Webb was performing as a top 5 saftey and Suggs was a monster, i wouldnt have mentioned anything about overpaid contracts

Edited October 29, 2016 by usmccharles

[The Raven]

4 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Thats fine and all, just stating the facts, a sack is a sack.  Id rather him get coverage sacks then nothing, just means our secondary was doing their job.  But i wont argue he isnt his old self, obviously, hes 34 and had two achiles injuries. 

I agree for the most part, but for his cap hit, I'd like a little more regular pressure. Regular pressure has a bigger impact than a couple of coverage sacks, ya know?

[usmccharles]

3 minutes ago, The Raven said:

I agree for the most part, but for his cap hit, I'd like a little more regular pressure. Regular pressure has a bigger impact than a couple of coverage sacks, ya know?

Not disagreeing, but its not like we knew he was going to get injured again last year...things are just piling up and honestly, i wouldnt be shocked if he is gone next year or back at a lesser salary.

[The Raven]

11 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Not disagreeing, but its not like we knew he was going to get injured again last year...things are just piling up and honestly, i wouldnt be shocked if he is gone next year or back at a lesser salary.

He gone dude. He gone.

[Maryland]

27 minutes ago, The Raven said:

Yeah, but outside of those five (coverage) sacks he produced little to no pressure at all and lacked any kind of speed. Those sacks look good on the stat sheet but he wasn't passing my eye test. If you actually watched him he was slow as molasses and ineffective. All of his sacks were coverage sacks that came five seconds or later after the snap.

Agreed. Those sacks by Suggs certainly showed a lot of effort in keeping with the play, but he wasn't getting instant pressure like old times.

In watching the Titans/Jags game last night, I was reminded of what a real pass rush looks like. Their pass rush just burst off the line, gave Bortles little time to think, even when there were guys open. It reminded me of the 2014 Ravens when Doom, McPhee, and Sizzle were balling, getting to the QB a second or two after it's snapped. No one on our current team gets instant pressure like that anymore, at least not very often (Jernigan does sometimes). The kind of pressure that masks a bad secondary--we don't have that. 

Edited October 29, 2016 by Maryland
accidentally called Bortles Gabbert lol, but really who could tell the difference last night?

[52liveforever]

Drafting talent is not our problem. I truly believe we have a team that is full of talent and can win. We don't have enough leaders to keep the wheels turning. 

I don't understand people complaining about our defense.  They are doing their job put the ball in joes hands probably more than he has ever had. Granted I haven't verified I'm just going off of what I've seen. This is the best defense in the harbaugh era and we are missing starters. Yeah they give up big drives and plays but this has got to be the worst offense we have ever had as far as 3 and outs. Again I'm just assuming so if someone has the time to check this then great.

Offense is our problem. The whole o line being the reason joe is sucking is rediculous. He sucks when he has time. Play calling is completely confusing. Love Joe, but he sucks right now. Yes our line has faultered somewhat, but not nearly as much as Joe and the play callers. 

[kjbmore]

8 hours ago, balfan23 said:

Another issue has been the inability to bring in low-mid level veteran talent and have them be significant contributors, especially in the secondary. Guys like Josh Wilson, Pollard, Cary Williams and Graham ... all came in relatively cheap and, while not pro-bowl players, made significant contributions. 

We've rotated in countless secondary players over the past few years and little or nothing has stuck. We've just not had that magic in bringing in affordable players in the secondary and have them be anywhere close to effective. 

Maybe because we haven't had the other horses around them to allow them to be successful. When you're sliding into a defense full of pro bowlers, HOF guys and young studs, you just need to do your job and you probably have the luxury to cheat and play a bit more aggressively.

when you're sliding into a unit in flux, don't have the same cushion

case in point darian stewart

 

[Maryland]

6 minutes ago, kjbmore said:

Maybe because we haven't had the other horses around them to allow them to be successful. When you're sliding into a defense full of pro bowlers, HOF guys and young studs, you just need to do your job and you probably have the luxury to cheat and play a bit more aggressively.

when you're sliding into a unit in flux, don't have the same cushion

case in point darian stewart

I'm honestly amazed Darian Stewart became such a good player at Denver. Granted, some of that is due to scheme, some of that is due to having a great defense around him (especially a great pass-rush), but it still surprises me, since he just looked so slow here. 

[kjbmore]

8 hours ago, Maryland said:

I'm honestly amazed Darian Stewart became such a good player at Denver. Granted, some of that is due to scheme, some of that is due to having a great defense around him (especially a great pass-rush), but it still surprises me, since he just looked so slow here. 

haha exactly - slots into a top notch defense and looks legit

exactly what guys were doing with us - pollard leaves, looks lost, even  ed reed was done once he left - its a team sport - a good unit makes ordianry players better we cant generate that now though because just dont have that - at some stage you have to stop being cheap and establish your core, then you can fill it out with cheap signings - think were stil trying to add cheap signings but they dont have anybody to hide behind

im sure lewis and wright probably would have looked ok - playing in our superbowl side

[kjbmore]

i feel like we (ozzie ) draft like we work free agency - on the cheap, trying to be smart and cute

we need corners and have for a couple years - we grab tray (rip) in the 4th, young in the 4th - looks like a baller though and canday in the 7th

we need pash rush - we just seem to sidestep the issue and grab a few players who might help but not seeing it

how about just spending a high draft pick and live with the results, not like were getting return on the picks that are being made

much like our contracts we're handing out - guys we are paying arent performing

how about packaging up some picks to move up and be aggressive - i know a handful of these are comp picks

think the front office needs to take a long hard look at our roster and truly understand where we are as a team - need start identifying blue chip talent and go out and get it, time to start paying up

think we'll be picking high again - happy with the stanley pick but hope we have more to show from the second and third than we've been coming away with last 2 drafts

 

[JoeyFlex5]

10 hours ago, Militant X 1 said:

You've missed the point of the comparison.

All things being equal; "How is it that a receiver taken 195th overall in the draft has far succeeded one that was taken 4 rounds higher and 58th overall?  Why such disparity between the two?"  

Could a reason for that possibly be that the Ravens coaching staff isn't as good at "developing" the drafted talent (in this case a wide receiver) as you think they are?

 

 

no. torrey would never be antonio brown under any wr coach, ever. no wr in that draft other than torrey can do what antonio brown is doing. 

brown has unrivaled quickness and savvy, with possibly the best work ethic of any WR in the league, and an OC that uses him perfectly. torrey smith always has been and always will be a one trick pony, he can run fast and if your qb can perfectly drop the ball in his hands then he can make some deep catches, thats it, no coach can fix that, you cant coach body control except for a TINY bit, you cant coach hands, you cant coach tenacity and aggression, you cant change a players mental capacity, only load it with as much as they can retain. antonio brown has these things, torrey doesnt. 

our coaching staff hasnt developed anything of note recently, ill agree, but the comparison you used is really bad.

[JoeyFlex5]

8 hours ago, gtalk12 said:

 

the answer is simple, we have not been healthy for years. Camp looked all the bit of a big steal at WR but he at this point just can not stay on the field. Maxx Williams showed a bunch of promise but he went down as well. We lost a full year of Perrimans time, combine that with the fact that Boyle has also been suspended. Carl Davis? Injury. Matt Elam? Injury....regardless of how we felt about him, he still has not been on the field enough to know what he can do.....

 

 

camp fell because of his lengthy injury history, we took him hoping he could shake the injury bug but he didnt, that wasnt bad luck. 

carl davis was a first round talent who fell to the 3rd due to maddening inconsistency and rumored laziness and bad conditioning, well guess what happened to carl davis... 

elam was a bust long before the injuries, he was known as a high risk pick because hes a guy who lays his undersized body on the line to make big hits with no regard for proper tackling form and no awareness, look what he struggled with in the NFL.. 

weve had bad luck for sure, but this isnt bad luck, its like i said with keenan reynolds, if you go against the grain and the player proves doubters wrong then you look like a genius, but if you take a player with known red flags and they fail because of those red flags then it was a stupid pick. now i liked a lot of these picks because of the possible value and them being mid to low range picks, but we also shouldnt be hanging the hopes of our team on late draft picks either. most of our bad luck has come from free agents and re-signing players, our drafting hasnt been much bad luck, its been mostly dumb and bad picks.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

8 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Thats fine and all, just stating the facts, a sack is a sack.  Id rather him get coverage sacks then nothing, just means our secondary was doing their job.  But i wont argue he isnt his old self, obviously, hes 34 and had two achiles injuries. 

yeah, a sack is a sack until you top edge rusher doesnt apply a lick of pressure for 59 minutes of the game and the qb has all day to throw. i for one, am not applauding coverage sacks or sacks that come in garbage time, because they mean almost nothing. 

give me pressure on 3rd and 10 midway through the 3rd quarter when we need to take a lead and cause an errant throw, i could care less about 2 consecutive sacks on blake bortles in a near-impossible comeback attempt.

[Willbacker]

Its not really fair to say the Ravens problems are cuz of the last 4 yrs of the draft when a lot of these players are developing and getting a foothold in the NFL. The meats and potatos of a team are your veterans from the 5-9 playing experience range which homegrown we have 4 (Flacco,Webb,Jimmy and Pitta). I don't nessassarily see stars in this group. Just average to good players and this is the main reason we faltering now. I know we had other good players from the 08-12drafts but they not on the team now which is what matters now. Another reason is bad contacts (ex. Signing Zuttah to 5 yr deal when we had enough room under cap to keep him at original trade contract). Zuttah had not even played one snap for us and we extending the deal?

So to me the writer is wrong. He's picking the wrong 4 yrs. 1st of all you cant nessarrily judge a player until after 3 yrs and I believe in a couple of yrs we gonna finally be able to keep and sign our own players even if they not stars and that is critical cuz our aging guys will be coming off the books and keeping continuity is what made our team great in the 1st place.

The bottomline is is hoping guys like Jernigan and Mosley really start stepping up and becoming stars and we resign them and they maintain the same caliber of play and others in these drafts and regain the nice mixture of prime veterans, guys on their 1st contracts(gotta keep drafting strong) and a sprinkling of aging veterans. That's the perfect cocktail.

I do worry that we wont be able to keep guys like B Williams and Wagner due to salary cap problems again but we shall see. I'm hoping we can keep Williams especially since I see star material and then this will start the process or otherwise you can add 2013 draft to the mix.

[FerrariFan87]

Drafts since 2008 have been very poor, and it's showing on the field. We have no playmakers and no team speed (except Perriman and Wallace I suppose). Ozzie has to answer for that.

[balfan23]

16 hours ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

People argue and commented on how much they hated Cary Williams, but when he was our #2/#3 he did a phenomenal job.   When injuries piled on, he became our #1, which is where he started to lose touch.   

We had players that exceeded expectation from Ozzie/FO's bargain pick ups.   Right now our latest 'bargain' is Lawrence guy for 2years/2million dollars.   We seem to hit them every year.   

Give our FO some credit.   They are doing heck of a lot better than most people think. 

This thread is talking about poor drafting - but at it's core it is about trying to get to the bottom of why the results we're seeing on the field right now (and from the past few seasons) have been down from our high expectations. I'm just giving additional reasons, other than drafting why this team is not up to standards. 

While you may be able to point to a decent player here or there that has been picked up, some of the guys we were hitting on several years ago were not just decent, but some where the proverbial "play makers" we keep hearing that we don't currently have. 

This isn't just an attempt to trash the FO or not give any credit. They are being held to the standard that they've set for themselves. Our drafting over the past few years has simply not lived up to standards. Nor has our low-cost FA acquisitions. Being plagued by injuries hasn't helped, but I think also the offensive coaching carousel has been a problem. Honestly, we've had 1 really good OC in all these years and it was for all of 1 year and it was Kubiak. 

[RavensFanMania]

On 10/27/2016 at 2:36 PM, The Raven said:

I think our cap has been tied down with contracts of aging players who didn't produce as much as they were paid to. Suggs and Dumervil are KILLING us right now with that. So much of our cap is invested in them and they have a combined, what, two sacks?

I think it's also because we struggle to develop some guys, too. Jah Reid comes to mind there.

Suggs has 5 sacks

[The Raven]

13 minutes ago, RavensFanMania said:

Suggs has 5 sacks

Wouldn't know it from the completely anemic pressure he gets. Those five sacks are probably the only five times he even sniffed a QB this year

[gtalk12]

7 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

camp fell because of his lengthy injury history, we took him hoping he could shake the injury bug but he didnt, that wasnt bad luck. 

carl davis was a first round talent who fell to the 3rd due to maddening inconsistency and rumored laziness and bad conditioning, well guess what happened to carl davis... 

elam was a bust long before the injuries, he was known as a high risk pick because hes a guy who lays his undersized body on the line to make big hits with no regard for proper tackling form and no awareness, look what he struggled with in the NFL.. 

weve had bad luck for sure, but this isnt bad luck, its like i said with keenan reynolds, if you go against the grain and the player proves doubters wrong then you look like a genius, but if you take a player with known red flags and they fail because of those red flags then it was a stupid pick. now i liked a lot of these picks because of the possible value and them being mid to low range picks, but we also shouldnt be hanging the hopes of our team on late draft picks either. most of our bad luck has come from free agents and re-signing players, our drafting hasnt been much bad luck, its been mostly dumb and bad picks.

 

 

to be fair, when Carl stepped in he played better than Timmy J who was dealing with a few minor injuries. He looked great out there and is now on IR. He would have helped our team defensively much more than an Urban would have. In fact, based on that small sample I would go as far to say that he may be our future DE at some point.

 

I still feel that a lot of the picks we have made just have not been on the field to matter

 

I never liked the Reynolds pick, not for what we need.

 

Elam played well his first year, as to what happened year 2 will always be a mystery to all of us. That being said, apparently his confidence was back and he was playing well enough to have the coaches talk him up. However, an injury kept him out...I believe it was a torn bicep?