Joe Flacco: Tough Talk

[rmcjacket23]

Here's my thing...

Is it possible for fans to actually at least attempt to offer solutions? I mean hell at least maybe even some bad one's. We've got multiple threads that are all just dancing around the same concept... Joe isn't playing well. Don't need to keep throwing out more threads pretending like they are different, just like there's no point in keeping on throwing out stats that may or may not be relevant to show that he's not playing bad. People that actually watch games know that he's playing bad, and people that don't will go to the analytics to show this. It all gets us to the same point.

I never thought I'd say this, but I think I respect the people saying to cut him more than I do the people who just keep regurgitating the same stuff over and over again, just to make an obvious point that everybody already knows.

At least "cut him" guy is thinking about attempting to solve the problem, even though they're only considering like 10% of the equation. 

In the end, he got paid a lot of money, and that means this team will continue to go as he goes. If he plays poorly, there's virtually no scenario where we have a good team, regardless of how much talent we add around him. We don't and won't have the ability to build a Denver Broncos-like defense and offensive skill position players who can help mask obvious flaws at QB. That's not happening when  you pay a QB this much money.

So when he plays bad, we are bad. And in general, when he plays well, we do well. We had much talent/depth/injury issues in 2014 and we still won a lot because Joe and other individual players played very well.

This is the current and future Baltimore Ravens for at least the next three years (including this one). We go as he goes. You can whine about it and complain and criticize all you want... it changes nothing. I criticize Joe on a daily basis in here, and I'm also smart enough to know that the only solution is he's just going to have to do better. There's no "well just cut him" or "trade him" or "draft an upgrade" or any of the things that basically can't happen.

He's YOUR guy whether you are happy with it or not. 

[Tank 92]

3 minutes ago, AsianRice said:

I can't believe I actually for once read the whole 5 page post.  It has some good arguments....

 

I came out with one summary about QBs and WRs discussion is that it is a TEAM work to make everything happened. It starts from top to bottom of the organization.

 

 

That is exactly correct and a simple fact that is lost to many. 

[BmoreBird22]

21 minutes ago, MTRavensFan said:

Cortisone shots, or whatever "treatment" he got during warmups wore off, plain and simple. Harbaugh was too sick with the stomach flu to notice. Joe should have been benched, let's see what happens with two weeks of ice and rest.

I don't understand why we keep coming up with crazier and crazier excuses...

[BmoreBird22]

21 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

In the end, he got paid a lot of money, and that means this team will continue to go as he goes. If he plays poorly, there's virtually no scenario where we have a good team, regardless of how much talent we add around him. We don't and won't have the ability to build a Denver Broncos-like defense and offensive skill position players who can help mask obvious flaws at QB. That's not happening when  you pay a QB this much money.

I mean, the Broncos paid Peyton Manning a ton of money and they still had all of that. Just have to draft better.

[MTRavensFan]

Well, it was obvious to me Flacco should have been benched. Harbaugh was sick. Whether the two are related is strictly conjecture.

[Tru11]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

I don't understand why we keep coming up with crazier and crazier excuses...

they are just adding fuel to the fire TBH

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I mean, the Broncos paid Peyton Manning a ton of money and they still had all of that. Just have to draft better.

Mostly yes. A lot of the Broncos best players were still on rookie deals when they were paying $20M for Manning. 

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, Tru11 said:

they are just adding fuel to the fire TBH

I can believe the shoulder had some impact, but that does not explain his poor play the rest of the season.

[usmccharles]

5 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Mostly yes. A lot of the Broncos best players were still on rookie deals when they were paying $20M for Manning. 

I think that was his point, they were getting a way better value for their players.  I think drafting has been our biggest issue along with health

[Tru11]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

I can believe the shoulder had some impact, but that does not explain his poor play the rest of the season.

ow no doubt it had some impact and sure the o-line has been bad but yeah he has been bad as well.
most probably feel that way as well

overall i think more and more people are getting fed up with the constant excuses and blaming of everyone else tbh

 

[DenverRaven]

My two cents; 

Kubiak leaving had a crippling affect on our rebuild, and Joe's play. Joe doesn't get a pass on his poor play, but he does get a crutch this season coming back from a major injury, and for dealing with the Trestman carry over. He also has to deal terrible line play, and no run game. 

That does not excuse his play under pressure, overall. It's been a disaster. But, I imagine he's pretty much done with getting hurried every single play, and having no time in the pocket. This leads to a huge drop in his usually steady confidence, and therefore we see his mechanics go out the door, and his demeanor drop like a rock. The dude is flat out rattled. He's playing scared.

How do we fix this? I think it's pretty clear --- OLine + Run game. We need an OC who will go this route, and Trestman was never it. I think Trestman was a slight desperation move, and Kubiak leaving crippled the organization last season, and again right now. It set our rebuild back by two years. If Joe is throwing 25-35x a game, I think he can be the guy who we know he can be. Until then, I don't know much changes.

This team has a ton of potential over the coming years, but it is going to take a solid scheme for Joe to get his play back on track.

[allblackraven]

26 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

I think that was his point, they were getting a way better value for their players.  I think drafting has been our biggest issue along with health

This is true but check where the Donkies drafted those guys while we were consistently picking in late 20s to 30s.

[BmoreBird22]

42 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Mostly yes. A lot of the Broncos best players were still on rookie deals when they were paying $20M for Manning. 

That's my point. They're drafting better and able to sustain their success, even with paying Manning a ton. They still had other high priced players (Clady, Talib, Bailey, Vasquez, Ware, etc), but they're drafting ability really set them apart.

[usmccharles]

17 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

This is true but check where the Donkies drafted those guys while we were consistently picking in late 20s to 30s.

Oh without a doubt having higher picks help, obviously lol.  But outside of Miller at 2 in 2011, 2008 and 2009 (Clady and Moreno) and they picked at 12, but other than that they have been picking pretty late and nailing their picks. 

Starting at 2015 going back: 23, 31, 28, 36, 2, 22, 12, 12, 17

Edited October 25, 2016 by usmccharles

[TSizzle00]

15 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I'm asking how a quarterback can elevate the play of those around him, since that is what was posted exactly a page ago. It wasn't by you, so don't worry about it, but a great quarterback can't make receivers better.

I remember when the Patriots loss to the Colts in the AFCCG before the Colts won the SB? Patriots WRs were dropping everything and were awful. Since then, NE has made sure that Brady had at the very least people who could catch the ball. They even seem to have prioritized pass catching and route running WRs and TE's over any sort of speed. Tom Brady isn't making players better around him, the team actually finds people that fit their offensive scheme and those WRs, TEs and RBs thrive because of it.

[rmcjacket23]

54 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Oh without a doubt having higher picks help, obviously lol.  But outside of Miller at 2 in 2011, 2008 and 2009 (Clady and Moreno) and they picked at 12, but other than that they have been picking pretty late and nailing their picks. 

Starting at 2015 going back: 23, 31, 28, 36, 2, 22, 12, 12, 17

Yeah but a lot of their better picks didn't necessarily come from early draft picks. They did well in the later rounds.

Look at 2012... Derek Wolfe at #36, Malik Jackson at #137, Danny Trevathan at #188 (absolutely crushed 5th and 6th round picks).

Their first round picks have been sort of hit or miss. They don't have any real "busts" in there, but some of those guys are just average players.

[usmccharles]

3 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Yeah but a lot of their better picks didn't necessarily come from early draft picks. They did well in the later rounds.

Look at 2012... Derek Wolfe at #36, Malik Jackson at #137, Danny Trevathan at #188 (absolutely crushed 5th and 6th round picks).

Their first round picks have been sort of hit or miss. They don't have any real "busts" in there, but some of those guys are just average players.

Yea that was basically my point, i might not of said it very well. 

[DenverRaven]

4 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Yeah but a lot of their better picks didn't necessarily come from early draft picks. They did well in the later rounds.

Look at 2012... Derek Wolfe at #36, Malik Jackson at #137, Danny Trevathan at #188 (absolutely crushed 5th and 6th round picks).

Their first round picks have been sort of hit or miss. They don't have any real "busts" in there, but some of those guys are just average players.

Sports radio out here was just saying that outside of Wolfe, Elway's day two picks have been almost all flops. Their late rounders are great though. and CHJ was a UDFA.

[Moderator 3]

Are we still talking about Flacco?  Why is it all other threads get Flacconated but the Flacco threads end up somewhere else?

[rmcjacket23]

6 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

Are we still talking about Flacco?  Why is it all other threads get Flacconated but the Flacco threads end up somewhere else?

Feel free to close any one of the half dozen Flacco threads anytime.

[Tank 92]

7 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

Are we still talking about Flacco?  Why is it all other threads get Flacconated but the Flacco threads end up somewhere else?

I do hold the copyright and will collect royalties quarterly.   

[ALPHA]

I think he's still rattled by the knee injury and it could be as simple as a time thing for him to get right. It's not unheard of for QB's to have a season long slumps or hot streaks, a change in scenery could come back to bite us.

[terps85]

5 hours ago, Tru11 said:

do you think a receiver has a better chance of winning when being put in a favorable spot or when being put in a bad spot?

 

Again, this is a quarterback doing a better job.  Ultimately it comes down to the receiver beating his man and the good quarterbacks don't have some magic wand that just magically makes the receiver able to generate separation.  

In the first quarter last week, Wallace beat his guy on a post for tat long gain.  It was a great throw, but obviously would not have been a successful play had Wallace not beaten his guy.  Flacco wasn't involved in the route before he threw it, so he had no impact on the route itself (Wallace beating Skrine).  

If it were true that quarterbacks make players better, then the Patriots would not spend early picks on pass catchers (Gronk, Dobson, and others in the 2nd/3rd round that did not pan out).

It's the same issue that we have seen with the Ravens.  I'm sure most of us can agree that Flacco is at his best when throwing downfield.  The line has been brutal this year and he does not have the time for the deep routes to develop.  Does he magically become a good down field thrower again if he is able to, ignoring the bad footwork, step up and throw the ball deep?

[Tru11]

11 minutes ago, terps85 said:

Again, this is a quarterback doing a better job.  Ultimately it comes down to the receiver beating his man and the good quarterbacks don't have some magic wand that just magically makes the receiver able to generate separation.  

In the first quarter last week, Wallace beat his guy on a post for tat long gain.  It was a great throw, but obviously would not have been a successful play had Wallace not beaten his guy.  Flacco wasn't involved in the route before he threw it, so he had no impact on the route itself (Wallace beating Skrine).  

If it were true that quarterbacks make players better, then the Patriots would not spend early picks on pass catchers (Gronk, Dobson, and others in the 2nd/3rd round that did not pan out).

It's the same issue that we have seen with the Ravens.  I'm sure most of us can agree that Flacco is at his best when throwing downfield.  The line has been brutal this year and he does not have the time for the deep routes to develop.  Does he magically become a good down field thrower again if he is able to, ignoring the bad footwork, step up and throw the ball deep?

so do you think a receiver has a better chance of winning when being put in a favorable spot or when being put in a bad spot?

 

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

21 hours ago, sflegend89 said:

Joe Flacco: 12th most sacked QB, sacked 14 times, 5 TD's, 6 INT's, 75.4 QBR

Andrew Luck: 1st most sacked QB, sacked 25 times, 14 TD's, 4 INT's, 98.3 QBR

Matt Ryan: Tied for 3rd most sacked QB, sacked 18 times, 16 TD's, 4 INT's, 113.6 QBR

Matthew Stafford: Tied for 3rd most sacked QB, sacked 18 times, 15 TD's, 4 INT's, 105.7 QBR

Philip Rivers: 6th most sacked QB, Sacked 17 times, 13 TD'S, 4 INT's, 102.4 QBR

Facts:

- Joe Flacco has the 29th worst QBR in the NFL 

- Andrew Luck has been sacked NEARLY TWICE as much as Joe Flacco yet is dominating him in every statistical category, Colts have what many feel is worst OL in football

- Only other QB's besides Flacco in entire NFL with negative TD-INT ratio are Case Keenum and Ryan Fitzpatrick

 

Enough excuses for Joe, I'm a long time supporter of his even through rough patches but this is different. This year so far he's not elite... not average... not even below average, he's amongst the very worst starting QB's in the entire NFL. Everything from his mechanics, to his accuracy, to his overall passing stats tell us so. Guys like Rivers have comparable weapons/OL and are blowing him out of the water.

 

Its Mental.

Joe needs to sit next game, period. He simply is not helping this team.

Call it shoulder rehab, but if he has another stinker, it will be way worse for him. 

By sitting him, he can at least see how Mallett handles the exact same circumstances Joe has been dealing with, and maybe can figure something out as to what is causing him to continually screw up by rushing throws.

I believe he is paranoid that another lineman is going to fall on his knee, or is expecting a premature sack. 

[terps85]

13 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

so do you think a receiver has a better chance of winning when being put in a favorable spot or when being put in a bad spot?

 

Of course. Mike Wallace is a prime example. He's with Tannehill and Bridgewater, two guys who struggle throwing it downfield.  Did Flacco magically make it so Wallace could get open deep again?

[BmoreBird22]

3 hours ago, DenverRaven said:

Sports radio out here was just saying that outside of Wolfe, Elway's day two picks have been almost all flops. Their late rounders are great though. and CHJ was a UDFA.

So was Shaq Berrett and Todd Davis.

[The Raven]

11 hours ago, Halshayeji said:

Here's a start, trade for a damn lineman and don't throw the ball 50 times a game. Joe Thomas is ours if we wave a second round pick at the browns. Of course he gonna get crushed when the D knows your gonna pass 4 times out of 5! If he continues to regress or is banged up then bench him or he may never recover from this.

Bench him before he falls off that cliff! Bench him before he gets killed. Bench him before the team gives up on the coach for sticking with a QB thats playing he worst football in his life. Maybe tough love is the love Joe needs.

I'm not saying trade Joe or even think of getting rid of him. But its foolish to take the same approach every time and expect different results. The D and Special teams are playing their hearts out. Its only a matter of time until they give up and then its a rap.

we have 2 weeks to prepare for the Steelers. If Joe continues to play like this for whatever reason then its time to bench him untill hes physically and mentally 100 percent.

If we trade a 2nd to a division rival for a 32 year old LT on the downswing I'll join the plebs calling for Ozzie to be fired.

[gtalk12]

50 minutes ago, The Raven said:

If we trade a 2nd to a division rival for a 32 year old LT on the downswing I'll join the plebs calling for Ozzie to be fired.

I think we made the right choice, stayed and picked up Stanley who CLEARLY after a short injury stint is ALL WORTH THAT 6th pick

[ellicottraven]

Is Flacco tough? I think so because I've never once in the last 8-9 yrs ever heard him whine about anything period. So yes he is tough. But does that automatically make him great under pressure. I don't think the two are as correlated like one would want us to believe.