sflegend89

Joe Flacco: Tough Talk

3,270 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, GhostofGrbac said:

Give them opportunities to make plays, trust in them, switch up calls to put them in a position to succeed on the field.

There have been a few examples posted in this thread and refuse to acknowledge them. Probably because it doesn't fit your narrative.

No, there's no examples of how a quarterback makes a receiver better since a receiver has to run the routes and has to catch the ball. 

Can the quarterback make their life easier? Sure, but that isn't making them better. A player isn't magically going to get better if they're traded halfway through the year to a new team with a better quarterback. That's just not how it works and it's a false narrative in the NFL.

Here, I have a question for you.

Mike Wallace already, in seven games, has more yards, touchdowns, and a better YPC than he did in 16 games in Minnesota. Is Joe Flacco making Mike Wallace a better receiver than he was in Minnesota?

Edited by BmoreBird22
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1 hour ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

Pretty shallow for a moderator.  If this isn't a clear example why moderators should not commingle with enforcing power on forum this is it.  

I said i will stop arguing on this thread.  So i will.

Damn you're on the moderators hard today

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1 hour ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

So since you have pff account, you can post it here.  

I don't have one personally but it would be fun to have all that empirical data at your disposal to see what kind of interesting patterns and metrics you can come up with 

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2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

No, there's no examples of how a quarterback makes a receiver better since a receiver has to run the routes and has to catch the ball. 

Can the quarterback make their life easier? Sure, but that isn't making them better. A player isn't magically going to get better if they're traded halfway through the year to a new team with a better quarterback. That's just not how it works and it's a false narrative in the NFL.

So Colston becoming a pro bowl level WR had absolutely nothing to do with Brees? Yeah ok.

Greg Jennings was a pro bowler with Aaron Rodgers. He left and his career fell off a cliff. But yeah Rodgers didn't make him a better player or anything.

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5 minutes ago, GhostofGrbac said:

So Colston becoming a pro bowl level WR had absolutely nothing to do with Brees? Yeah ok.

Greg Jennings was a pro bowler with Aaron Rodgers. He left and his career fell off a cliff. But yeah Rodgers didn't make him a better player or anything.

If you know anything about Colston from the draft, the biggest questions were regarding his route running and the tweener status of possibly being a tight end, never his catching ability. Not to mention Sean Payton is one of the top 3 offensive minds in the game.

Greg Jennings also worked with a three man rotation in 2013 and a rookie in 2014. Despite this, he was actually pretty damn productive for the Vikings. He then dealt with numerous injuries in 2015. He didn't fall off a cliff.

The quarterbacks only job is to throw the ball. Sure, a well placed ball will be easier to catch, but the receiver still needs to run their routes and catch the ball.

But again, Mike Wallace had a horrendous season with the Vikings in 2015. He's already exceeded his yardage, YPC, and touchdown totals (should surpass his catch totals against the Steelers) in just seven games, despite playing in 16 in Minnesota. Is Flacco making Mike Wallace a better receiver?

Edited by BmoreBird22
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1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

If you know anything about Colston from the draft, the biggest questions were regarding his route running and the tweener status of possibly being a tight end, never his catching ability. Not to mention Sean Payton is one of the top 3 offensive minds in the game.

Greg Jennings also worked with a three man rotation in 2013 and a rookie in 2014. Despite this, he was actually pretty damn productive for the Vikings. He then dealt with numerous injuries in 2015. He didn't fall off a cliff.

But again, Mike Wallace had a horrendous season with the Vikings in 2015. He's already exceeded his yardage, YPC, and touchdown totals (should surpass his catch totals against the Steelers) in just seven games, despite playing in 16 in Minnesota. Is Flacco making Mike Wallace a better receiver?

 

I think Flacco is making Mike Wallace a better receiver to a certain degree.  No one said he couldn't.  Stats usually dont lie.  But you had bridgewater who was on his 2nd qb year with Wallace.  

If you flip it around, can Joe Flacco be better w/ Mike Wallace if Flacco was on his 2nd year?  Probably not.   


Point is, Flacco is nearing a decade as a franchise QB.  This is his peak.   Either he regress or stay as he is.  He is underperforming his contract in a big way.  It is hurting the team.   He knows it.  He needs to do right by performing or take a paycut.   We are not going to pay him +23m every year until 2019 w/ performance like this. Nope.

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Just now, Ravenseconbeast said:

I think Flacco is making Mike Wallace a better receiver to a certain degree.  No one said he couldn't.  Stats usually dont lie.  But you had bridgewater who was on his 2nd qb year with Wallace.  

If you flip it around, can Joe Flacco be better w/ Mike Wallace if Flacco was on his 2nd year?  Probably not.   


Point is, Flacco is nearing a decade as a franchise QB.  This is his peak.   Either he regress or stay as he is.  He is underperforming his contract in a big way.  It is hurting the team.   He knows it.  He needs to do right by performing or take a paycut.   We are not going to pay him +23m every year until 2019 w/ performance like this. Nope.

I don't think Joe is making Wallace a better receiver. Wallace isn't doing anything differently himself. He's just getting better opportunities that suit him better in Baltimore and has a quarterback who can actually work to his strengths. Wallace the receiver is the same, but the situation is better.

The thing is, Baltimore is paying him $4M in base salary this year. I think it's like $8M next year. It doesn't even hit $20M until year five and by then, the signing bonus has been paid out. 

I don't think he's played well by any stretch, but some of the things being tossed around here (quarterbacks cannot make a receiver better) are silly. 

I think Flacco has regressed in a major way, but that doesn't mean I'm going to go overboard with my claims.

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8 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

If you know anything about Colston from the draft, the biggest questions were regarding his route running and the tweener status of possibly being a tight end, never his catching ability. Not to mention Sean Payton is one of the top 3 offensive minds in the game.

Greg Jennings also worked with a three man rotation in 2013 and a rookie in 2014. Despite this, he was actually pretty damn productive for the Vikings. He then dealt with numerous injuries in 2015. He didn't fall off a cliff.

But again, Mike Wallace had a horrendous season with the Vikings in 2015. He's already exceeded his yardage, YPC, and touchdown totals (should surpass his catch totals against the Steelers) in just seven games, despite playing in 16 in Minnesota. Is Flacco making Mike Wallace a better receiver?

It's pretty clear that you're only interested in arguing at this point. I've posted numerous examples and you continue to ignore them. Which you obviously have the right to do.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. There's no point in us continting to clutter up this thread.

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5 minutes ago, GhostofGrbac said:

It's pretty clear that you're only interested in arguing at this point. I've posted numerous examples and you continue to ignore them. Which you obviously have the right to do.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. There's no point in us continting to clutter up this thread.

You've presented stats, but haven't ever actually said how a receiver is made better by his quarterbacks.

Calvin Johnson played with a rotation of Dan Orlovsky and Shaun Hill for much of his early career. However, in Stafford's first fully healthy season, 2011, Johnson lit up the league for 1600 yards and 16 touchdowns. Did Stafford magically make the best receiver in football into the best receiver in football?

Also, you dodged my Mike Wallace question. Doesn't fit your narrative, huh?

Edited by BmoreBird22
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11 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I don't think Joe is making Wallace a better receiver. Wallace isn't doing anything differently himself. He's just getting better opportunities that suit him better in Baltimore and has a quarterback who can actually work to his strengths. Wallace the receiver is the same, but the situation is better.

The thing is, Baltimore is paying him $4M in base salary this year. I think it's like $8M next year. It doesn't even hit $20M until year five and by then, the signing bonus has been paid out. 

I don't think he's played well by any stretch, but some of the things being tossed around here (quarterbacks cannot make a receiver better) are silly. 

I think Flacco has regressed in a major way, but that doesn't mean I'm going to go overboard with my claims.

 
 
 
 
 

Again 'better'  is probably not the best word, not sure what word i should be using.

Well whatever the cut off point is, if Flacco can't perform, we have to find another route.  Just way it is.  My belief is you should hold every player accountable.  If the organization had success working in a certain manner then they should keep it that way.   Our lengthy success was 'right player at the right price'   I really think that main philosophy has gone further away from the way our organization use to run things.   We are going to a dark/dimly lit road.   It's not working.   

I also think circling around a new OC is not going to solve the problem.  Do our organization really have to hold BOTH 120m QB AND get LUCKY enough to get a stud OC?  AND a STUD OL AND a WR?  In reality this either means:   deplete the defense talent, and rely on offense.   Or deplete the offense, and rely on defense.  If you have money packed on certain area, it needs to have that value work.  

Or you can sprinkle the talent around and make everything a dud.   That is what i mean by 'right player right price'   Every player needs to hold that value for the team to outdo the talent of the other team.

Edited by Ravenseconbeast
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Just now, Ravenseconbeast said:

Well whatever the cut off point is, if Flacco can't perform, we have to find another route.  Just way it is.  My belief is you should hold every player accountable.  If the organization had success working in a certain manner then they should keep it that way.   Our lengthy success was 'right player at the right price'   I really think that main philosophy has gone further away from the way our organization use to run things.   We are going to a dark/dimly lit road.   It's not working.   

I also think circling around a new OC is going to solve the problem.  Do our organization really have to hold BOTH 120m QB AND get LUCKY enough to get a stud OC?  AND a STUD OL AND a WR?  In reality this either means:   deplete the defense talent, and rely on offense.   Or deplete the offense, and rely on defense.  If you have money packed on certain area, it needs to have that value work.   or you can sprinkle the talent around and make everything a dud.   That is what i mean by 'right player right price'   Every player needs to hold that value for the team to outdo the talent of the other team.

Again 'better'  is probably not the best word, not sure what word i should be using.   

It wasn't you that started the "better" conversation, so don't sweat it.

The issue with Flacco is his play was never detrimental to the Ravens with this consistency. Up until this year, Flacco would cost the Ravens maybe a game a year, but more often than not, he was putting the Ravens in a position to attempt to win and be competitive. This is the first year that we can really sit down and say that his play has been a huge factor in actually costing the Ravens games. Before you could point to other issues and say that Joe didn't make it easier, but he didn't really cost games. This year, I think we're seeing Joe actually cost the Ravens games. Obviously the Jets game is the most recent, but he's also very lucky the Ravens beat the Jags because he gifted the Jags turnovers and the defense held staunch. 

It's just shoddy mechanics. I noticed this week one, but he was throwing a ton of balls just low and at the feet of receivers. He's kinda cleaned that up a bit, but we're seeing way too many throws off his back foot, leading to floaters and poorly underthrown passes.

The Ravens cannot realistically get rid of him for two more years, and that's fine with me. Joe has shown in the past that he's capable of winning the Ravens games and this is the first year where it's a real issue for him. Two more years will help show whether this is the new norm or a bump in the road after an injury.

However, and I am not opposed to this, if the Ravens wanted to take a quarterback high and let him sit, there's four names that will go in the top 15. Kizer, Kaaya, Watson, and Trubisky, probably in that order. Of the four, I think the two best fits would be Watson and Trubisky. 

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3 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

You've presented stats, but haven't ever actually said how a receiver is made better by his quarterbacks.

Calvin Johnson played with a rotation of Dan Orlovsky and Shaun Hill for much of his early career. However, in Stafford's first fully healthy season, 2011, Johnson lit up the league for 1600 yards and 16 touchdowns. Did Stafford magically make the best receiver in football into the best receiver in football?

Let's see Calvin Johnson has arguably the best season of his career during Stafford's first fully healthy season.

Are you seriously trying to say that Stafford had nothing to do with Johnson becoming a more productive/better player?

It's a ridiculous question on your part anyway. You're talking about the number 2 overall draft pick while I'm talking about late round guys like Colston.

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For the whole "a good QB makes everyone around him better" thing, there are plenty of counter-examples. Very obvious one is Aaron Dobson who was drafted in the 2nd round by the Patriots a few years ago and was already cut. QBs don't have magic wands that make receivers run good routes or catch the ball. 

 

As for Flacco, he's just not good enough to carry an offense without a running game. He makes too many bad throws and his mechanics are atrocious at times. He looks great when he actually steps into his throws, but that rarely happens. It sucks that he's never had a receiver he can rely on to make plays and get 50/50 balls (besides Boldin in the playoffs). 

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Just now, GhostofGrbac said:

Let's see Calvin Johnson has arguably the best season of his career during Stafford's first fully healthy season.

Are you seriously trying to say that Stafford had nothing to do with Johnson becoming a more productive/better player?

It's a ridiculous question on your part anyway. You're talking about the number 2 overall draft pick while I'm talking about late round guys like Colston.

Did Calvin Johnson become a better receiver all of a sudden or was it just more helpful to have a more accurate passer?

Still waiting to hear about Wallace. You're a master dodger.

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19 minutes ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

Again 'better'  is probably not the best word, not sure what word i should be using.

Well whatever the cut off point is, if Flacco can't perform, we have to find another route.  Just way it is.  My belief is you should hold every player accountable.  If the organization had success working in a certain manner then they should keep it that way.   Our lengthy success was 'right player at the right price'   I really think that main philosophy has gone further away from the way our organization use to run things.   We are going to a dark/dimly lit road.   It's not working.   

I also think circling around a new OC is not going to solve the problem.  Do our organization really have to hold BOTH 120m QB AND get LUCKY enough to get a stud OC?  AND a STUD OL AND a WR?  In reality this either means:   deplete the defense talent, and rely on offense.   Or deplete the offense, and rely on defense.  If you have money packed on certain area, it needs to have that value work.  

Or you can sprinkle the talent around and make everything a dud.   That is what i mean by 'right player right price'   Every player needs to hold that value for the team to outdo the talent of the other team.

Yeah I will agree that better might not be the best word. More productive is probably better. Still pretty much the same point though.

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1 minute ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Did Calvin Johnson become a better receiver all of a sudden or was it just more helpful to have a more accurate passer?

Still waiting to hear about Wallace. You're a master dodger.

You also have the whole Aaron Rodgers falling off last year without Jordy or really anything around him. Why didn't he make them better too?

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Just now, terps85 said:

You also have the whole Aaron Rodgers falling off last year without Jordy or really anything around him. Why didn't he make them better too?

@GhostofGrbac got an answer for this?

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1 minute ago, GhostofGrbac said:

Yeah I will agree that better might not be the best word. More productive is probably better. Still pretty much the same point though.

Vastly different.

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2 hours ago, Moderator 3 said:

Joe wasn't playing lights out before his injury last year so I'm ready to question his coaching. Wasn't Mornhingweg brought in last year to be his QB coach?  Maybe he undid all of Kubiak's good work. 

 

A 9 year vet, SB MVP doesn't need a QB coach to tell him to step into his throws. Flacco is dealing with a mental block of sorts, likely brought on by the ACL tear which has left him feeling particularly vulnerable.

It's a lower body issue with his mechanics, doesn't seem to mind hits from the waist up but it's like he doesn't want to step into his throws because it makes him feel vulnerable to extend his lower body out to oncoming rushers. You can't have a QB playing scared out there which is undoubtedly happening right now.

Flacco has to overcome this mental block and the scary thing is he might not be able to. I don't doubt his competitiveness but things like this after a major injury can be hard to shake.

 

Edited by sflegend89
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3 minutes ago, sflegend89 said:

A 9 year vet, SB MVP doesn't need a QB coach to tell him to step into his throws. Flacco is dealing with a mental block of sorts, likely brought on by the ACL tear which has left him feeling particularly vulnerable.

It's a lower body issue with his mechanics, doesn't seem to mind hits from the waist up but it's like he doesn't want to step into his throws because it makes him feel vulnerable to extend his lower body out to oncoming rushers. You can't have a QB playing scared out there which is undoubtedly happening right now.

Flacco has to overcome this mental block and the scary thing is he might not be able to. I don't doubt his competitiveness but things like this after a major injury can be hard to shake.

Joe Flacco is such a maddening quarterback because right now, he's mostly doing everything on arm talent alone. He's making very impressive throws with just his arm and torso. If he would just step into throws, he could have some real beauties. 

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39 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

You've presented stats, but haven't ever actually said how a receiver is made better by his quarterbacks.

Calvin Johnson played with a rotation of Dan Orlovsky and Shaun Hill for much of his early career. However, in Stafford's first fully healthy season, 2011, Johnson lit up the league for 1600 yards and 16 touchdowns. Did Stafford magically make the best receiver in football into the best receiver in football?

Also, you dodged my Mike Wallace question. Doesn't fit your narrative, huh?

Calvin Johnson has arguably the best season of his career in Stafford's first fully healthy season. So yeah Stafford made Johnson a more productive (aka better) WR.

The Calvin Johnson thing doesn't even factor in to what I'm talking about though. You're talking about the #2 draft pick while I'm talking about late round guys like Colston.

I didn't dodge your Wallace question. It's hard to follow on a phone when you respond to every single post I make.

Yes Wallace is a more productive (aka better) WR with Flacco than he was in Minnesota and Miami.

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25 minutes ago, terps85 said:

You also have the whole Aaron Rodgers falling off last year without Jordy or really anything around him. Why didn't he make them better too?

Falling off? He threw 31 td's to a WR/TE group consisting of Jones, Adams, Montgomery, Rodgers, and Cobb (who was banged up throughout the season).

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7 minutes ago, GhostofGrbac said:

Calvin Johnson has arguably the best season of his career in Stafford's first fully healthy season. So yeah Stafford made Johnson a more productive (aka better) WR.

The Calvin Johnson thing doesn't even factor in to what I'm talking about though. You're talking about the #2 draft pick while I'm talking about late round guys like Colston.

I didn't dodge your Wallace question. It's hard to follow on a phone when you respond to every single post I make.

Yes Wallace is a more productive (aka better) WR with Flacco than he was in Minnesota and Miami.

Productivity and talent are not the same thing though. Last year, Golden Tate had more receptions and yards than Odell Beckham. Would you consider Tate better than Beckham?

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25 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Joe Flacco is such a maddening quarterback because right now, he's mostly doing everything on arm talent alone. He's making very impressive throws with just his arm and torso. If he would just step into throws, he could have some real beauties. 

Honestly doing everything on arm talent alone is probably why he had shoulder discomfort.

His mechanics have been inconsistent his entire career. The only time his mechanics were solid for most of the season was under Kubiak.

Which brings up the question why didn't we get an OC that ran a system similar to Kubiak? Like Shanahan who is lighting it up as the OC in ATL.

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6 minutes ago, GhostofGrbac said:

Falling off? He threw 31 td's to a WR/TE group consisting of Jones, Adams, Montgomery, Rodgers, and Cobb (who was banged up throughout the season).

After throwing 38 the previous year with a 112 rating. His rating last year was 92. 

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4 minutes ago, terps85 said:

Productivity and talent are not the same thing though. Last year, Golden Tate had more receptions and yards than Odell Beckham. Would you consider Tate better than Beckham?

Again I stated before that better probably wasn't the best word to use.

From my standpoint I was using better as in more productive. Which obviously you guys wouldn't know since you're not mind readers.

Side note: this forum software is awful on mobile. I've been typing up posts and they randomly disappear.

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1 minute ago, GhostofGrbac said:

Again I stated before that better probably wasn't the best word to use.

From my standpoint I was using better as in more productive. Which obviously you guys wouldn't know since you're not mind readers.

Side note: this forum software is awful on mobile. I've been typing up posts and they randomly disappear.

Oh, I must have missed that post. Sorry about that.

But yeah, I've had problems with it too. Sometimes it disappears and other times the submit button doesn't work. 

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Just now, terps85 said:

Oh, I must have missed that post. Sorry about that.

But yeah, I've had problems with it too. Sometimes it disappears and other times the submit button doesn't work. 

No biggie. It's my fault anyway. I should have clarified what I meant.

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2 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

How do they make them better? Answer that.

uhhh its possible.

Ball placement for instance can make a receiver look better or worse.

lets use the slant with the defender in a trailing position:
placing the ball in front of the receiver , so he can catch it and maintain momentum gives you a much higher % at a catch and YAC.
placing the ball behind him increases the difficulty of the catch and usually ends in a drop.
same with placing the ball at the feet.
a jump ball is about the worst options to throw as you are hanging the receiver out to dry and a drop is very high to occur.

now its pretty clear in which of these the receiver will look better and in which ones he will look worse.
1 he can look good with a catch and yac while the others he can be credited for  a drop and the blame for the play failing.


 

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