Joe Flacco: Tough Talk

[BirdWatcher]

Just now, Sami84 said:

It's bad when the obvious is ignored. It's bad when fans refer to the browns and boller as benchmarks so we ''should be grateful''. The fact of the matter is that flacco has been a below average QB for a good part of his career and has never even touched the top 8 IMHO. He hasn't got better, he's the same inconsistent flacco except now he's worse due to his injury.He at least could scramble before and now he can't even do that. He just isn't good to watch. He has games ( like many qbs) which give hou hope and then he regresses back to a below average QB whos capable of playing the worst game of any QB in a season. His great games are few and far between. His BEST games are good games by elite standards and how many has he had? not many. He's a game manager been asked to be elite which he's not..but hes been paid like he is and with no cap room our team is suffering for it.

No clue how Flacco's struggles make being a homer a bad thing.  Everyone has pretty much acknowledged the struggles but are looking for better ways to correct that than "he sucks, bench/cut him, blow up the cap".  We've seen "good Flacco", we want to get back there.  

You (and several other posters) just keep telling us our kid is ugly.  That simply isn't helpful nor welcome.

[Tru11]

6 minutes ago, flynismo said:

List it yourself, troll. Five 4k yard passers back in 2004.

five players make up a top in your eyes?

no wonder you think flacco is a HOF.

solid logic right there buddy....

[BirdWatcher]

Either you two drop it or we'll make it stop.  Your choice.

[Tru11]

1 minute ago, Moderator 3 said:

No clue how Flacco's struggles make being a homer a bad thing.  Everyone has pretty much acknowledged the struggles but are looking for better ways to correct that than "he sucks, bench/cut him, blow up the cap".  We've seen "good Flacco", we want to get back there.  

You (and several other posters) just keep telling us our kid is ugly.  That simply isn't helpful nor welcome.

nah suggesting flacco is just as good as brady, rodgers and brees is legit lol.

only delusional ravens fans would go that far.....

[Sami84]

16 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

No clue how Flacco's struggles make being a homer a bad thing.  Everyone has pretty much acknowledged the struggles but are looking for better ways to correct that than "he sucks, bench/cut him, blow up the cap".  We've seen "good Flacco", we want to get back there.  

You (and several other posters) just keep telling us our kid is ugly.  That simply isn't helpful nor welcome.

 

flacco isnt ''my kid''. I support the ravens, the ravens are NOT joe flacco, they are not bound together permanently. He's not irreplacable..he'll gain my respect if he plays well and frankly, he hasnt played well for ages. Even last year he was atrocious . There has only been two seasons where he has played well out of a possible 9. He hit a purple patch at just the right time in the playoffs ( better thank rahim moore too as that last pass would have been intercepted by any half decent play) and has milked that for the past 4 years.

 

this is a ''what have you done for me lately'' league..and aside from tearing an ACL/MCL and being crap prior and since ...

yeah.

[rmcjacket23]

5 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

flacco isnt ''my kid''. I support the ravens, the ravens are NOT joe flacco, they are not bound together permanently. He's not irreplacable..he'll gain my respect if he plays well and frankly, he hasnt played well for ages. Even last year he was atrocious . There has only been two seasons where he has played well out of a possible 9. He hit a purple patch at just the right time in the playoffs ( better thank rahim moore too as that last pass would have been intercepted by any half decent play) and has milked that for the past 4 years.

 

this is a ''what have you done for me lately'' league..and aside from tearing an ACL/MCL and being crap prior and since ...

yeah.

Well, some of this isn't really true.

1. Are they bound together permanently? Well, I guess technically no, because at some point Joe will retire and be done playing football, so they won't be bound together anymore. In terms of the immediate future (the next 3 years basically), they are bound together permanently. Short of a Ray Rice-level incident, they are happily married for the next three years and nothing will change that. Doesn't matter if fans like it, hate it, or want to cry about it. 2019 is the very first season in which fans can even begin to ask the question of "who will be our QB". Any discussion prior to that is a gigantic waste of time.

2. I guess technically he's not irreplaceable, but I do find it funny that nobody ever comes up with even a reasonable idea of who to replace him with, why that person would be better, etc. 

So in that regard, he sort of is. Replaceable people generally don't stay employed this long and get paid this much money for this long. 

3. The Rahim Moore thing is cute, but fans are extremely naive if they think that play got Joe all the money he was making. The floor discussions for his contract, prior to even those 2012 playoffs even starting, was probably in the $16-18M a year range. He didn't make $10M a year more by winning a SB. Wondering how many years it will take fans to understand this or if they are just going to continue to play the ignorance card.

4. Define "playing well"?

(Hint: NFL teams don't define how a player performs by what their box score stats look like... wondering how many years it will take fans to understand this or if they are just going to continue to play the ignorance card here as well...)

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

11 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

flacco isnt ''my kid''. I support the ravens, the ravens are NOT joe flacco, they are not bound together permanently. He's not irreplacable..he'll gain my respect if he plays well and frankly, he hasnt played well for ages. Even last year he was atrocious . There has only been two seasons where he has played well out of a possible 9. He hit a purple patch at just the right time in the playoffs ( better thank rahim moore too as that last pass would have been intercepted by any half decent play) and has milked that for the past 4 years.

 

this is a ''what have you done for me lately'' league..and aside from tearing an ACL/MCL and being crap prior and since ...

yeah.

But Flacco is a Raven. So, fans should support Flacco and whether you think he's played well or not, you should WANT him to do well.

The thing that i think irritates some of us, is its clear that some of you dont even want certain guys to do well - its more important to be proven "right" or whatever than for the team to have success.

Because if you truly wanted success for the team and Flacco as a Raven you'd at least acknowledge that we havent surrounded him with talent, havent given him a solid OL, and havent put him in an environment that most franchise QBs are given - and therefore its not a level playing field to compare him to Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Manning who had 1 system, 1 set of plays, and consistent weapons throughout their career.

We've seen greatness from Joe... so it is reasonable to think that if given a favorable environment to succeed that he would be consistent. So, why not cheer for that to happen instead of hope for the downfall?

As a fan, thats a stupid way of cheering.

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

But Flacco is a Raven. So, fans should support Flacco and whether you think he's played well or not, you should WANT him to do well.

The thing that i think irritates some of us, is its clear that some of you dont even want certain guys to do well - its more important to be proven "right" or whatever than for the team to have success.

Because if you truly wanted success for the team and Flacco as a Raven you'd at least acknowledge that we havent surrounded him with talent, havent given him a solid OL, and havent put him in an environment that most franchise QBs are given - and therefore its not a level playing field to compare him to Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Manning who had 1 system, 1 set of plays, and consistent weapons throughout their career.

We've seen greatness from Joe... so it is reasonable to think that if given a favorable environment to succeed that he would be consistent. So, why not cheer for that to happen instead of hope for the downfall?

As a fan, thats a stupid way of cheering.

I think this goes both ways.

In one aspect, I agree with Sami that the "loyalty" of the fans should go to the team and organization over the players. Obviously, players, coaches, etc. come and go on an annual basis, and so developing emotional attachments to them seems kind of silly to me personally. I get why it happens, but I largely resist this, because in the grand scheme of things they are all pawns that get moved around to achieve a greater objective. Its what makes it more manageable for fans to understand why we let Ed Reed go and why we trade fan favorites like Boldin. 

That being said, I think fans have developed this sort of odd phenomenon of accepting some players as people that represent them while rejecting others. Its like some fans will say that the Ravens are "my team", but Joe Flacco isn't necessarily "my QB". Well, by definition, if the Ravens are committed in a gigantic way to said player (which they obviously are), then its borderline illogical to say you support one without supporting the other. I mean you can still do it, but it doesn't make a ton of sense.

Its one thing to be hesitant to support a rookie or a fringe player who is essentially a year-to-year player on the roster... most players on the team fall into this category. But when its quite obvious the franchise has married a player, its probably time to go ahead and support both.

Doesn't mean they are above criticism, but it does mean they are largely above the "time to move on and find somebody better" lazy approach.

[Sami84]

7 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

But Flacco is a Raven. So, fans should support Flacco and whether you think he's played well or not, you should WANT him to do well.

The thing that i think irritates some of us, is its clear that some of you dont even want certain guys to do well - its more important to be proven "right" or whatever than for the team to have success.

Because if you truly wanted success for the team and Flacco as a Raven you'd at least acknowledge that we havent surrounded him with talent, havent given him a solid OL, and havent put him in an environment that most franchise QBs are given - and therefore its not a level playing field to compare him to Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Manning who had 1 system, 1 set of plays, and consistent weapons throughout their career.

We've seen greatness from Joe... so it is reasonable to think that if given a favorable environment to succeed that he would be consistent. So, why not cheer for that to happen instead of hope for the downfall?

As a fan, thats a stupid way of cheering.

 

the greatness has come in short spurts and thankfully it happened in post season 2012..

aside from that it's been mostly below average/average QB play. If Joe cared about this franchise he'd see that his contract is not measuring up to what HE Can do for this franchise and in truth actually sets it back. People lose perspective in this proffession and just become money obsessed. It's quite sick..please dont give me '' oh i have mouths to feed'' crap..since when was 150 million plus another massive extension needed for that?

[Sami84]

2 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I think this goes both ways.

In one aspect, I agree with Sami that the "loyalty" of the fans should go to the team and organization over the players. Obviously, players, coaches, etc. come and go on an annual basis, and so developing emotional attachments to them seems kind of silly to me personally. I get why it happens, but I largely resist this, because in the grand scheme of things they are all pawns that get moved around to achieve a greater objective. Its what makes it more manageable for fans to understand why we let Ed Reed go and why we trade fan favorites like Boldin. 

That being said, I think fans have developed this sort of odd phenomenon of accepting some players as people that represent them while rejecting others. Its like some fans will say that the Ravens are "my team", but Joe Flacco isn't necessarily "my QB". Well, by definition, if the Ravens are committed in a gigantic way to said player (which they obviously are), then its borderline illogical to say you support one without supporting the other. I mean you can still do it, but it doesn't make a ton of sense.

Its one thing to be hesitant to support a rookie or a fringe player who is essentially a year-to-year player on the roster... most players on the team fall into this category. But when its quite obvious the franchise has married a player, its probably time to go ahead and support both.

Doesn't mean they are above criticism, but it does mean they are largely above the "time to move on and find somebody better" lazy approach.

 

This organization will be around much longer than joe flacco. I thought after 2012 that he might finally become a consistant QB who could maybe take it up a notch..

sadly he's been worse for the most part. So no, I'm no joe flacco fan..if we can win great..i hope he does well but i've seen enough to know that from now until his contract is up we aint sniffing the playoffs with him and if we can get rid of him in 2019 we should and pronto.

[BirdWatcher]

Just now, Sami84 said:

This organization will be around much longer than joe flacco. I thought after 2012 that he might finally become a consistant QB who could maybe take it up a notch..

sadly he's been worse for the most part. So no, I'm no joe flacco fan..if we can win great..i hope he does well but i've seen enough to know that from now until his contract is up we aint sniffing the playoffs with him and if we can get rid of him in 2019 we should and pronto.

So you're going to keep spamming us with "Flacco sucks" posts until 2019? 

[Sami84]

4 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

So you're going to keep spamming us with "Flacco sucks" posts until 2019? 

until he shows otherwise im not spamming. Spamming is when there is no substance. There are a LOT of ravens fans on the same boat regarding flacco. The RSF forum in particular have lost patience with him and see him for who he really is. He might have some fans here but call me crazy i want better for this franchise. I wont stoop to the fear of cleveland and kyle boller. I want a REAL deal QB..someone who  i know is going to bring it more often than not..someone who CARES about this team. I'll say it..i dont think flacco cares about this franchise. I've seen his demeanor when we are losing..smirking and chuckling on the bench when losing and hes playing bad...

I'll be completely honest, I don't like him as a QB and he wouldn't be my QB.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Sami84

[rmcjacket23]

5 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

This organization will be around much longer than joe flacco. I thought after 2012 that he might finally become a consistant QB who could maybe take it up a notch..

sadly he's been worse for the most part. So no, I'm no joe flacco fan..if we can win great..i hope he does well but i've seen enough to know that from now until his contract is up we aint sniffing the playoffs with him and if we can get rid of him in 2019 we should and pronto.

I think I heard this one after 2013 also... and then 2014 happened.

Welcome to a world where dealing in absolutes never works...

[Sami84]

Just now, rmcjacket23 said:

I think I heard this one after 2013 also... and then 2014 happened.

Welcome to a world where dealing in absolutes never works...

 

Jake Delhomme was v.good for a couple of years..

whats your point?

[Sami84]

oh and matt shuab looked great under kubiak. Anyone looks great under Kubiak. If Kubiak is the reason why flacco played well that year they should have taken joes contract and given half of it to kubiak.

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, Sami84 said:

until he shows otherwise im not spamming. Spamming is when there is no substance. There are a LOT of ravens fans on the same boat regarding flacco. The RSF forum in particular have lost patience with him and see him for who he really is. He might have some fans here but call me crazy i want better for this franchise. I wont stoop to the fear of cleveland and kyle boller. I want a REAL deal QB..someone who  i know is going to bring it more often than not..someone who CARES about this team. I'll say it..i dont think flacco cares about this franchise. I've seen his demeanor when we are losing..smirking and chuckling on the bench when losing and hes playing bad...

I'll be completely honest, I don't like him as a QB and he wouldn't be my QB.

1. The RSF forum loses patience with a player after any given play during a season. Not exactly a good barometer for rationale, intelligent fans. 

2. Every team wants a REAL deal QB. Most don't have one and many have spent decades looking for one. If fans ran organizations, they'd treat the roster like a Daily Fantasy Football site... just trading QBs for QBs on a weekly basis because they got drunk the night before and townie at the corner of the bar told them to "play whoever plays the Browns that week". 

But this is the real world.

[rmcjacket23]

 

4 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

Jake Delhomme was v.good for a couple of years..

whats your point?

That had literally nothing to do with my post. You were on the masses of people in 2013 who said "we will never make the playoffs with Joe's contract again". And then, in 2014, we made the playoffs.

You know what thats called? Being wrong. You and the rest of the clowns who make blanket statements and pray that nobody calls you out on them when you are wrong were, of course, wrong.

Naturally, zero accountability on your part for being wrong. 

[AsianRice]

If anyone ever follow football and watch the Vikings 2 game losing streaks after their 5-0 start, you know what happened to their quickly collapse on both offense and defense?

 

The O-LINE!!

 

As soon as their OT starters going down, their team going down.  When their offense couldn't move the ball, their defense got exposed and beat.

 

Joe just came off from ACL/MCL knee surgery and had to deal with losing both of his starred OT tackles, Stanley and Yanda; is it logical to say that it's normal to perform with that much of adversities? 

 

Excuse or not; be reasonable and look around the league and ask one question for yourself; who would perform better if they are in Joe's shoes?

 

Even Aaron Rodgers would ask his O-line to give him couple seconds more to complete the pass.  There's no doubt Rodgers move better and read the defense better cuz he is healthy without any major surgery in the past.

 

No Joe's hommie or fan favor, but look at the facts that how many would succeed in the broken O-Line when they just came back from ACL/MCL surgery?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

19 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

the greatness has come in short spurts and thankfully it happened in post season 2012..

aside from that it's been mostly below average/average QB play. If Joe cared about this franchise he'd see that his contract is not measuring up to what HE Can do for this franchise and in truth actually sets it back. People lose perspective in this proffession and just become money obsessed. It's quite sick..please dont give me '' oh i have mouths to feed'' crap..since when was 150 million plus another massive extension needed for that?

Ok, but isnt is just as logical to say - the franchise hasnt committed to building around him in line with what theyre paying him suggests they should?

They're paying him the largest portion of the cap, but have given him the fewest resources to really succeed. That doesnt make a lick of sense.

 

Besides the whole pay check, cap hit argument is a cop out. There hasnt been one season where Joe's cap number has hurt us in the way fans have made it out to be. He hasnt stopped us from signing one player, and i think theres only been one season where he had the largest cap hit on the team.

Players like a declining Ngata, and an injured Webb have had bigger cap hits in recent years.

And, youre just not going to get a comparable player. QBs, even bad ones, make a ton of money any more unless on their rookie deal. Joe gave us play above his pay for over 4 years.

Brocks making almost as much and is far far worse. Going forward, getting comparable play will only cost more. Is it fair? Idk. Who cares whats fair? It just is. Unless you want to draft a QB every 4 years and pray, this is what the reality looks like.

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[Sami84]

1 minute ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Ok, but isnt is just as logical to say - the franchise hasnt committed to building around him in line with what theyre paying him suggests they should?

They're paying him the largest portion of the cap, but have given him the fewest resources to really succeed. That doesnt make a lick of sense.

 

in that case they should dedicate the entire off season to the O line and getting 1 premier pass rusher. Everything else ..just live with it.

Alex Lewis isnt good enough at LG or RT in that case. Do what the cowboys did. Draft 2 O linesman in the 1st and 2nd round.

[rmcjacket23]

11 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

oh and matt shuab looked great under kubiak. Anyone looks great under Kubiak. If Kubiak is the reason why flacco played well that year they should have taken joes contract and given half of it to kubiak.

Apparently you just didn't bother to watch the 2015 football season at all. Might want to go back and see what those QBs (including a HOFer) did under Kubiak.

So far in the last roughly 18 months or so of Kubiak offenses in Denver... unbelievably unimpressive. Keep perpetuating the huge myth that everybody looks great under Kubiak.

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 minute ago, Sami84 said:

in that case they should dedicate the entire off season to the O line and getting 1 premier pass rusher. Everything else ..just live with it.

Alex Lewis isnt good enough at LG or RT in that case. Do what the cowboys did. Draft 2 O linesman in the 1st and 2nd round.

Yes, we should absolutely devote more resources to the OL.

Our D, as currently constructed, if supplemented by even an average to slightly above average offense is good enough to get into the playoffs.

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, Sami84 said:

in that case they should dedicate the entire off season to the O line and getting 1 premier pass rusher. Everything else ..just live with it.

Alex Lewis isnt good enough at LG or RT in that case. Do what the cowboys did. Draft 2 O linesman in the 1st and 2nd round.

So draft two offensive lineman in the first two rounds AND get a premier pass rusher all in one offseason?

Wow, that's impressive. Anything else we should do to make sure we are back in the SB next year?

How about lets trade for Julio Jones and Antonio Brown, and we only give up a 6th and 7th round pick for them? Wouldn't that solve some problems.

[Sami84]

1 minute ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Yes, we should absolutely devote more resources to the OL.

Our D, as currently constructed, if supplemented by even an average to slightly above average offense is good enough to get into the playoffs.

 

Yanda will be falling off soon. So basically its stanely and who else? Long way to go..maybe joe can donate a few dollars back and help pay for the line in FA?

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Yes, we should absolutely devote more resources to the OL.

Our D, as currently constructed, if supplemented by even an average to slightly above average offense is good enough to get into the playoffs.

And yet, the exact opposite of these things will happen.

I'd say at least 60% of our offensive line is set in stone for next year already, and I don't see that changing.

The defense could realistically use talent upgrades at many positions, and that's where I think the focus is going to be. Pass rusher and corner specifically.

[Sami84]

1 minute ago, rmcjacket23 said:

So draft two offensive lineman in the first two rounds AND get a premier pass rusher all in one offseason?

Wow, that's impressive. Anything else we should do to make sure we are back in the SB next year?

How about lets trade for Julio Jones and Antonio Brown, and we only give up a 6th and 7th round pick for them? Wouldn't that solve some problems.

 

oh but you also love this FO and harbs..

 

something has to give here..

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, Sami84 said:

Yanda will be falling off soon. So basically its stanely and who else? Long way to go..maybe joe can donate a few dollars back and help pay for the line in FA?

Or maybe any of the other dozen or more players who aren't living up to their paychecks should donate a few of their "dollars" back.

 

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, Sami84 said:

oh but you also love this FO and harbs..

 

something has to give here..

Yeah... you know what has to give?

Fans have to get realistic with what's happening here. That's what has to give. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

7 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

in that case they should dedicate the entire off season to the O line and getting 1 premier pass rusher. Everything else ..just live with it.

Alex Lewis isnt good enough at LG or RT in that case. Do what the cowboys did. Draft 2 O linesman in the 1st and 2nd round.

I mean if youre going to pay a guy an amount that says, we think you can lead our franchise forward... then i think yea, you should invest most of your personnel capital into assets that help him succeed in that quest.

Protection to keep him healthy, upright and gives him the time needed to play his best, weapons that can get open and catch the passes he throws, a run game that keeps things balanced and opens up PA opportunities, and a system/OC that suit his skill set and that he can stay in for a long time so hes comfortable.

We've done almost none of that until now. We've tried to get by with bargain basement receivers... we have invested resources to the OL, but its been mostly reaction instead of pre-emptive strikes. We went and got Monroe as a knee-jerk to a bad start in 2013. Zuttah as a reaction to Gino/Shipley not working.

Just now have we invested a top pick on a LT and WR. But, we're now year 4 of Flacco making big money. We should have been building around him since 2009/2010 when we started to realize he was the guy.

 

And if not then, at least starting after the 2012 SB when we won it because of the offensive break out, and the defense playing just good enough... they werent shut down but created turn overs and got stops when needed.

 

I admit Joe hasnt played up to my expectations, especially this year. But I also recognize that he hasnt been given... not just the best, but he hasnt even been given an ok environment to succeed. The OC changes hes gone through cripple careers. When OL's cant protect, QBs effectiveness declines (see Luck last year, Wilson this year, Brady 2 years ago and some of last year).

Its fair to expect more from Flacco, but its not fair to say "This is exactly who he is and all he can be" until hes been given an equal opportunity to the QBs youre comparing him against.

Edited November 2, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[Sami84]

2 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Yeah... you know what has to give?

Fans have to get realistic with what's happening here. That's what has to give. 

 

Ah okay so you're saying to embrace the crap and make no changes because we won 4 years ago.

Sounds like a plan