Joe Flacco: Tough Talk

[Ravensfan23]

2 minutes ago, flynismo said:

I think (hope) most realize that, but the question is why aren't we doing it? It frustrates me to no end...there is zero creativity in this offense. 

Yea I agree that most know, what i intended to point out is just what you mentioned. That stuff has to be put in the offense. If it's not than a QB will never work on it and never become good at it. Brees wasn't a great presnap QB while in SD simply because Cam controls everything. 

I think the Ravens became prisoners of their own success in terms of the offense. It works just enough to win a SB and consistently make the playoffs. So there's never a need to make major changes. Even under Kubiak the passing game was basic for the most part. I thought it would have gotten more creative and tailored to fit Flacco even more in years 2-5 but of course Kubes left. Honestly i just think people get so caught up in the fact that Flacco has a huge arm and can make those tight window throws. It's like the Ravens are that old guy that can't get with the new era of the NFL with fantasy Football and creative offenses, so he just watches old highlights all day. 

[PurpleCity5]

31 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

We honestly need to take the cowboys approach to this. We need to keep building up the line. It doesn't have to be an all world offensive line, just one that is good enough. That's where the Flacco haters get it wrong. That oline wasn't elite, and neither were the weapons. Boldin played the best football of his career(but still not up to par of a Megatron so hush) and Jacoby made 3 big plays.

 

We're actually not too far off. Ozzie's built the team from the middle out and found a few good pieces. It's just that some of our fans are pathetic. 

 

This is what I would like to see but we're going to have to get a pass rusher here first and foremost. After that I would like to see us buff up the OL, yes, even over CB. Some may think its outrageous but here's my take. People love to argue how our defense has lost games over the years, but how can you forget the games that our offense lost us. If you look at the last four games the offense was truly atrocious. Three of them where I would give them the most blame(Redskins, Raiders, & Jets). Funny thing is that people talk about the defense collapsing late, when the offense does the exact same, and in most instances where we're playing close games, its because of the offense. 

Another argument is that buffing up the OL would solve more problems for us than getting a CB would. Joe looks uncomfortable out there and its clear that he'll need more and better protection for him to play well (Obviously). The run game has also been inconsistent and what we need right now is a consistent run game. Not one that's good one day and bad on the other. 

What we'll also need is a serious option in the passing game. I'm not saying a superstar WR but at least a star. I get it, you don't need it but in our case its a want and a huge one. Every QB plays best when their WRs are catching passes and running the best routes (Again, Obviously), so why not make life for Joe easier? My hope is that we get a pass rusher, then sign a WR, I would love Alshon here but I'm thinking of someone more realistic like Kenny Britt. He's a guy that I don't think a team is going to pay a good $12M for and he fits what we would like to have in a WR, someone of a big body and a redzone option. 

[kassaiscool]

19 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

It it were anyone else(read Webb, Smith, etc.), or a talented QB on another team the talk would be "oh, Joe is only 11 months removed from a major knee reconstruction, he may need some time to get to 100%".    

I am not saying Joe is not tough for coming back from that injury, but its really asinine to compare Cornerbacks to QB's as far as coming back from an ACL injury. Do you know the amount of cutting and running at top speed cornerbacks do in one game compared to QB's? I also remember Phillip Rivers playing with a torn ACL against the colts in the afc championship game a while back in the playoffs as well.

[Tru11]

4 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

What is this injury you speak of? I hope it's not the torn labrum he suffered because that came in his last game as a Chargers, so 2004 and 2005 he was completely healthy. Philip Rivers was drafted in the 1st round of the 2004 draft because after taking over the starting job in 2001, Drew Brees was not getting the job done. Over the course of 2 seasons(02-03) that great QB with such great accuracy, who transcended Cam's scheme/system completed less than 60% of his passes, threw more Ints than TDs and was played so poorly that he was benched in the 2003 season in favor of Doug Flutie. So you're telling me that this is the guy that anyone watching him should have been able to see he was this great QB? Again are we actually watching guys play or just buying into media hype an stats? No knock to Brees just fact. 

So now let's look at those final 2 seasons where Brees played so well in your opinion. He never throw for more than 3,500 yards and 24 TDs. In fact his best season statistically under Cam was 2005. His numbers. 64%  3,576yd 24TDs 15Ints and he was a Pro Bowl alternative(but he was hurt too). My intent is not to make this a Flacco vs Brees post, but it'd be remiss of me not to point out that Joe Flacco in his 2nd NFL season (2009) performed in the same system to the tune of 63% 3,613yds 21TDs 12ints. Of course we can't do this, but put Flacco in that 2005 class and he's top 10 in every major category. Again are we watching guys play or just looking at stats and buying into media hype?

Now he's the point to my entire argument. I agree with all the abilities that you listed for Drew Brees. However what in my opinion took him to another level was the pairing between he and Sean Payton's system. Cam's system didn't bring out the best in Brees. Why because it asked Brees to hold onto the ball and allow routes to develop down field, it called for him to make tight window throws, it called for him to be under center the majority of the time and rarely ran an uptempo type offense unless it was a 2min drill. Payton saw how Brees was being under utilized and what he did was allow Brees to stay in the things he already did well and didn't ask him to fit into a system that really didn't fit him. Again i'm talking system not how good or bad the player is. If Brees stays in Cam's system he would have continued to be a top 10 type QB, but wouldn't be the HOF type QB he is with Payton. 

All those things he does well that you pointed out, he didn't do with the Chargers because his system didn't call of it. Payton allowed Brees to do a lot of the same things he did at Purdue and keep him in his comfort level. Brees has been in that offense for 10 years, i'd expect nothing less than him to have mastered it and be able to move WRs around to attack defenses. That offense is designed to spread the ball around and spread the offense wide to allow guys space to work. As i said before, that system is very QB friendly and he's been in it for 10 years.  

Brees was a pro bowler and pro bowl alternate under Cameron in his final 2 seasons.
He was bad in his first 2 seasons and improved much more in the next 2 seasons.

Its called progression.

if you watched him play you could see him getting better and better and understanding things more.

there really is no telling if he would be a HOF worthy QB if he stayed under Cameron or went to play in another system.
he was after all getting better by the season and he has shown he had very little issue moving to a new system after he went to the saints.

the fact that you saw him improve leaps and bounds through the years says enough.

if he was terrible al 4 seasons under cameron and then improved all of a sudden under payton then yes you would make a very good point.
however that was not the case.

under Cameron he started as an avg QB and became a top 10 caliber QB and after that he kept getting better.

he already became a good QB before he left to join the saints.

also its silly to straight up just compare stats from different times lol.
the NFL in 2004 was very different then it was in 2009.
there where quite a few rules changes and emphasis on certain rules that favored the offense.

with your logic you could argue that unitas was a terrible QB because his stats look pretty bad to what today QBs are putting up lol

also lets make 1 thing very clear.
a 5 wr set is much easier to defend then a 3WR1TE1 RB set.
a 5 wr set you know its a pass so all you have to do is defend the pass.
a  3 wr set you have to consider it can be a run as well so from the start you will be step slower as you will have to wait and see what the offense will do.

PS: you where correct on the inj part, i had it mixed up.

 

 

 

[Tank 92]

3 hours ago, kassaiscool said:

I am not saying Joe is not tough for coming back from that injury, but its really asinine to compare Cornerbacks to QB's as far as coming back from an ACL injury. Do you know the amount of cutting and running at top speed cornerbacks do in one game compared to QB's? I also remember Phillip Rivers playing with a torn ACL against the colts in the afc championship game a while back in the playoffs as well.

Haha......you're not really serious, are you?  You do realize the basic throwing motion for a right handed QB Is to step through onto the left leg/knee? And you also realize that opens up the same leg/knee to getting smashed by 300+ lb. guys flying at him. Right?  It's a no brainer that a CB does more running and cutting(lol) than a QB does. It should also be obvious that a QBs left knee is extremely vulnerable while passing the football. 

What's really asinine is not recognizing that a major knee reconstruction may affect the throwing motion of a QB.  Unbelievable.

And just a quick add, Flacco tore both the ACL and MCL in his left knee. 

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by Tank 92

[Sami84]

2 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

Haha......you're not really serious, are you?  You do realize the basic throwing motion for a right handed QB Is to step through onto the left leg/knee? And you also realize that opens up the same leg/knee to getting smashed by 300+ lb. guys flying at him. Right?  It's a no brainer that a CB does more running and cutting(lol) than a QB does. It should also be obvious that a QBs left knee is extremely vulnerable while passing the football. 

What's really asinine is not recognizing that a major knee reconstruction may affect the throwing motion of a QB.  Unbelievable.

And just a quick add, Flacco tore both the ACL and MCL in his left knee. 

 

 

to non flacco homers, don't bother..when flacco homers want an excuse they can pull anything and everything out of the bag. Just watch the next few years..it's already been a putrid 3 out of 4 seasons, a couple more might be all they need.

[flynismo]

7 hours ago, Tru11 said:

the fact that you saw him improve leaps and bounds through the years says enough.

No, the fact that he showed this progression instantly upon going to NO says quite a lot.

[flynismo]

4 hours ago, Sami84 said:

to non flacco homers, don't bother

Absolutely right. Might be the most mindless group of trolls I've ever seen, really no point in any discourse with them.

Edited November 2, 2016 by flynismo

[flynismo]

9 hours ago, kassaiscool said:

I am not saying Joe is not tough for coming back from that injury, but its really asinine to compare Cornerbacks to QB's as far as coming back from an ACL injury. Do you know the amount of cutting and running at top speed cornerbacks do in one game compared to QB's? I also remember Phillip Rivers playing with a torn ACL against the colts in the afc championship game a while back in the playoffs as well.

Do you have any clue how a player's legs effects the power and accuracy of your ability to throw an object? Any idea at all? Tell you what; go in your backyard, pick up a rock, and stand on one leg and throw it. Let me know how that works out for you, then come back and tell us how asinine that comparison is.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

21 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Absolutely right. Might be the most mindless group of trolls I've ever seen, really no point in any discourse with them.

 Dude, don't bother poking the bear. We all know this story, he's here to preach his stupid anti-establishment agenda and tell us all how stupid we are in comparison to his brilliance. He's just not worth it anymore. 

[Tru11]

1 hour ago, flynismo said:

No, the fact that he showed this progression instantly upon going to NO says quite a lot.

dude stop being a freaking homer.

so going from being benched and your replacement being drafted 1st overall to going on and having a pro bowl season and winning comeback player of the year is not a sign of improvement in your eyes?

he was benched in 2003 with the chargers and then came back in 2004 to do just that also on the chargers.

in what world is this considerd not showing progression?

 

[MTRavensFan]

1 hour ago, Sami84 said:

to non flacco homers, don't bother..when flacco homers want an excuse they can pull anything and everything out of the bag. Just watch the next few years..it's already been a putrid 3 out of 4 seasons, a couple more might be all they need.

so why do you bother watching? or do you?

It must be miserable going around looking for stuff to complain about.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

16 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

dude stop being a freaking homer.

so going from being benched and your replacement being drafted 1st overall to going on and having a pro bowl season and winning comeback player of the year is not a sign of improvement in your eyes?

he was benched in 2003 with the chargers and then came back in 2004 to do just that also on the chargers.

in what world is this considerd not showing progression?

 

Of course players progress in their first 5 years. 

But when that progress is marginal through 5 years when most players show their biggest leaps in progress... to then magically becoming an all-time level QB when something changed.... hmmmm might make sense that the thing that changed (the system he moved to) had a little something to do with it. 

How are you arguing this? Are you really saying that the marginal improvement he showed in his first 5 years shows a clear path to him suddenly becoming a HoF?

Yea, one year throwing for 60%, 3500 yds and like 20 TDs to 12 INTs.... it was obvious the next step was throwing for 5,000 yds, 68% and 35 TDs every year starting a couple years later.  

Flacco showed the same progress in the same system in his first 5 years. So then according to you, Joes shown the same progression to be a HoF QB. Difference? Brees settled into a system for 10 years where the progress could continue, accelerate and that accentuated his talents. Joe's had a new system to learn every year and new "weapons" to integrate and develop every year too.

since the progression was the same through 5 years, by your logic then, all things equal Joe would be putting up 5k yds every year.

Oh the change in system??? Nah had nothing to do with it. That leap was inevitable. Everyone who shows any progress through 5 years becomes a HoF over night  

 

Btw, how does any conversation involving Bree's, a Saint make someone a homer?? Do you even know what homer means?? Or is that what you throw around when you have no valid point so your only choice is to try and discredit the point you don't agree with. 

Cant fix stupid. 

Edited November 2, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[flynismo]

1 hour ago, Tru11 said:

dude stop being a freaking homer.

so going from being benched and your replacement being drafted 1st overall to going on and having a pro bowl season and winning comeback player of the year is not a sign of improvement in your eyes?

he was benched in 2003 with the chargers and then came back in 2004 to do just that also on the chargers.

in what world is this considerd not showing progression?

 

Yes, yes, pointing out obvious things makes me a homer. Especially when it involves one of my favorite players who is not even on this team. Watch a game for once instead of watching ESPN or thinking stats mean anything. Get over yourself.

Edited November 2, 2016 by flynismo

[Tru11]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Of course players progress in their first 5 years. 

But when that progress is marginal through 5 years when most players show their biggest leaps in progress... to then magically becoming an all-time level QB when something changed.... hmmmm might make sense that the thing that changed (the system he moved to) had a little something to do with it. 

How are you arguing this? Are you really saying that the marginal improvement he showed in his first 5 years shows a clear path to him suddenly becoming a HoF?

Yea, one year throwing for 60%, 3500 yds and like 20 TDs to 12 INTs.... it was obvious the next step was throwing for 5,000 yds, 68% and 35 TDs every year starting a couple years later.  

Flacco showed the same progress in the same system in his first 5 years. So then according to you, Joes shown the same progression to be a HoF QB. Difference? Brees settled into a system for 10 years where the progress could continue, accelerate and that accentuated his talents. Joe's had a new system to learn every year and new "weapons" to integrate and develop every year too.

since the progression was the same through 5 years, by your logic then, all things equal Joe would be putting up 5k yds every year.

Oh the change in system??? Nah had nothing to do with it. That leap was inevitable. Everyone who shows any progress through 5 years becomes a HoF over night  

 

Btw, how does any conversation involving Bree's, a Saint make someone a homer?? Do you even know what homer means?? Or is that what you throw around when you have no valid point so your only choice is to try and discredit the point you don't agree with. 

Cant fix stupid. 

from being benched to being a pro bowler is marginal?

[Tru11]

6 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Yes, yes, pointing out obvious things makes me a homer. Especially when it involves one of my favorite players who is not even on this team. Watch a game for once instead of watching ESPN or thinking stats mean anything. Get over yourself.

lol its obvious you are a homer.

from being benched to being a pro bowler is a significant sign of progres.

its just down right silly how you are acting like its not a big deal lol.

its like you only started watching football from the moment flacco got drafted.
 

seriously start practicing what you preach to others.

 

 

[flynismo]

6 hours ago, Tru11 said:

also its silly to straight up just compare stats from different times lol.
the NFL in 2004 was very different then it was in 2009.

Is that silly? Hmmmmm.....

2004 Passing Leaders

Yards

Dante Culpepper - 4,717

Trent Green - 4,591

Peyton Manning - 4,557

 

TD Passes

Peyton Manning - 49

Dante Culpepper - 39

Donovan McNabb - 31

 

2009 Passing Leaders

Yards

Matt Schaub - 4,770

Peyton Manning - 4,500

Tony Romo - 4,483

 

TD Passes

Drew Brees - 34

Brett Favre - 33

Peyton Manning - 33

 

But I suppose that just makes me a homer too, right?

[flynismo]

1 minute ago, Tru11 said:

lol its obvious you are a homer.

from being benched to being a pro bowler is a significant sign of progres.

its just down right silly how you are acting like its not a big deal lol.

its like you only started watching football from the moment flacco got drafted.
 

seriously start practicing what you preach to others.

 

 

Says the guy who thinks it is silly to compare 2004 stats to 2009. Watch a game, educate yourself, then come talk to me. Troll.

[flynismo]

17 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

from being benched to being a pro bowler is marginal?

Right. Because when guys like Joey Galloway, Plaxico Burress, Thomas Davis, Daryl Smith, Amani Toomer and Fred Taylor from that era do not win the Pro Bowl popular contest even just one year, it shows just how much Pro Bowls mean.

Edited November 2, 2016 by flynismo

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

10 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

from being benched to being a pro bowler is marginal?

Brees stats...

2002: 60.8%, 3,284 yds, 17 TDs, 16 INTs

2004: 65.5%, 3,159 yds, 27 TDs, 7 INTs

2005: 64.6%, 3,576 yds, 24 TDs, 15 INTs

Pro Bowl is a popularity contest. Has nothing to do with "progression." But, looking at the numbers at least, I'd call that marginal.

Then 2006, 1st year in NO: 4,418 yds, 26 TDs, 11 INTs.

A 1,000 yd jump over his best prior season. Yea - his prolific numbers had nothing to do with the system.

 

From 2002-2005, he was a 60-62% completion guy, 3,250 yd, 25TD and 15 INT type guy every year (over 16 games).

 

From 2006-present he's a 68% completion, 4,750 yd, 35 TD, 16 INT guy.

 

I mean, i guess you're right. 1,500 yd and 10 TD jumps are the norm after the 5th year. Happens to everyone.

[Moderator 3]

Am I the only one who doesn't particularly think "homer" is an insult?  How can that be a bad thing to be?

[Tru11]

13 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Is that silly? Hmmmmm.....

2004 Passing Leaders

Yards

Dante Culpepper - 4,717

Trent Green - 4,591

Peyton Manning - 4,557

 

TD Passes

Peyton Manning - 49

Dante Culpepper - 39

Donovan McNabb - 31

 

2009 Passing Leaders

Yards

Matt Schaub - 4,770

Peyton Manning - 4,500

Tony Romo - 4,483

 

TD Passes

Drew Brees - 34

Brett Favre - 33

Peyton Manning - 33

 

But I suppose that just makes me a homer too, right?

list the entire top 10.

you might get a clue homer

[Tru11]

6 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Right. Because when guys like Joey Galloway, Plaxico Burress, Thomas Davis, Amani Toomer and Fred Taylor from that era do not win the Pro Bowl popular contest even just one year, it shows just how much Pro Bowls mean.

did they play on the chargers?

not sure what they have to do with brees and his progression?

[flynismo]

Just now, Tru11 said:

list the entire top 10.

you might get a clue homer

List it yourself, troll. Five 4k yard passers back in 2004.

[flynismo]

Just now, Tru11 said:

did they play on the chargers?

not sure what they have to do with brees and his progression?

Of course you don't get it. I wouldn't expect people like you to understand something that simple.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

6 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

list the entire top 10.

you might get a clue homer

In 2004, 7 guys were right around 4,000 yards. In 2009, 10 guys were.

Wooo big deal.

Go look at 2010 - AFTER 2009. Identical range to 2004 basically.

 

Rivers - 4710

Manning - 4700

Brees 4620

Schaub - 4320

Manning - 4002

Palmer - 3922

Brady - 3900

Ryan - 3702

Orton - 3653

 

The game wasnt much different at all... of course youre going to have year-to-year disparity. But there was just as much disparity between 2009 and 2010 as there was between 2004 and 2009. 

Are you now going to say that you cant compare 2009 to 2010 bc the game was too different? Stupid.

Edited November 2, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[Sami84]

Just now, Moderator 3 said:

Am I the only one who doesn't particularly think "homer" is an insult?  How can that be a bad thing to be?

It's bad when the obvious is ignored. It's bad when fans refer to the browns and boller as benchmarks so we ''should be grateful''. The fact of the matter is that flacco has been a below average QB for a good part of his career and has never even touched the top 8 IMHO. He hasn't got better, he's the same inconsistent flacco except now he's worse due to his injury.He at least could scramble before and now he can't even do that. He just isn't good to watch. He has games ( like many qbs) which give hou hope and then he regresses back to a below average QB whos capable of playing the worst game of any QB in a season. His great games are few and far between. His BEST games are good games by elite standards and how many has he had? not many. He's a game manager been asked to be elite which he's not..but hes been paid like he is and with no cap room our team is suffering for it.

[Tru11]

Just now, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

In 2004, 7 guys were right around 4,000 yards. In 2009, 10 guys were.

Wooo big deal.

Go look at 2010 - AFTER 2009. Identical range to 2004 basically.

The game wasnt much different at all... of course youre going to have year-to-year disparity. But there was just as much disparity between 2009 and 2010 as there was between 2004 and 2009. 

Are you now going to say that you cant compare 2009 to 2010 bc the game was too different? Stupid.

 

Rivers - 4710

Manning - 4700

Brees 4620

Schaub - 4320

Manning - 4002

Palmer - 3922

Brady - 3900

Ryan - 3702

Orton - 3653

 

 

list all the stats.

not just what fits your agenda.....

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

7 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

Am I the only one who doesn't particularly think "homer" is an insult?  How can that be a bad thing to be?

I dont. As a fan you should be a "homer." Meaning, stand up for  your home team and think theyre the best.

Its just when idiots use it as a sweeping, all-inclusive, "i dont like what you said, though i cant debunk it.... so HOMER" Its dumb.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

list all the stats.

not just what fits your agenda.....

You said list the Top 10. Ive done that.... and it didnt fit your narrative... so now we have to go beyond because your surface argument didnt hold water???

Why do i have to do the work after your points fall flat?

 

Youre the one who made the point that comparing the Top 5 didnt count bc there was disparity between the Top 10. I proved that taht doesnt matter, bc the disparity between 2004 and 2009 is identical to 2009-2010.

So your point isnt valid. Try again.

Edited November 2, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK