Joe Flacco: Tough Talk

[Tank 92]

It it were anyone else(read Webb, Smith, etc.), or a talented QB on another team the talk would be "oh, Joe is only 11 months removed from a major knee reconstruction, he may need some time to get to 100%".    

[flynismo]

4 hours ago, Tru11 said:

Do you think flacco would match Brees numbers if he where in that system?

BTW its not a QB friendly system.
Brees almost avg 40 pass attemtps per game lol

 

We're talking pure statistics? Then I'd say yeah, probably. If not, he wouldn't be far off.

Not trying to mitigate Brees in the least, but we're talking numbers here; the majority of those 40+ attempts he gets every week are to receivers in great matchups and/or just flat out wide open. And well, he gets a lot of garbage time stats too.

Between the system and the guys over there, it's easy to see why a talented QB like Brees is a FF stud.

Edited November 1, 2016 by flynismo

[flynismo]

21 hours ago, flynismo said:

Well, since you at least put forth the effort to try to find it, I did the same and looked it up for you; here it is: 

http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/70548-merged-qbs-youd-rather-have-than-flacco/?do=findComment&comment=2473862

Now, please do also read the very next comment by me right underneath that. That's what passes for "logic" in the media?

 

21 hours ago, Ravenseconbeast said:

Still waiting on that fact on Flacco being the 'most pressured QB' this season.   I looked at your past post past 2 weeks like you told me.  Havent ever wrote anything like it.  

Let me know when you find this 'fact'

No comment? Or are you going to continue to ignore every argument presented to you that you cannot refute, and just post more ad hominem rants?

You also may find this interesting:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-5-must-know-pff-stats-from-nfl-week-5/

 

5. The Ravens’ offensive line surrendered a league-high 23 QB pressures in Week 5.

Injuries have forced Baltimore to reshuffle some players along the offensive line, and the results were not pretty against Washington. To put the comically high number into perspective, the Cowboys’ and Bears’ units surrendered just three QB pressures apiece in Week 5.

Most QB pressures surrendered by O-lines in Week 5

And from my recollection, that wasn't even our worst game by the OL this year.

Edited November 1, 2016 by flynismo

[The Mom Gene]

5 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

It it were anyone else(read Webb, Smith, etc.), or a talented QB on another team the talk would be "oh, Joe is only 11 months removed from a major knee reconstruction, he may need some time to get to 100%".    

YUP, absolutely...

We have a QB that just came off ACL/MCL surgery, busted his butt to get back too... his best linemen are sidelined with injuries.  The guy that rolled up on him last season is right in front of him again, and they can't keep him upright.  He's been hit more than just about any other QB in the league...  AGAIN...  It just blows my mind that people STILL, AFTER ALL THIS, still bash him the way that they do.

[usmccharles]

4 minutes ago, The Mom Gene said:

YUP, absolutely...

We have a QB that just came off ACL/MCL surgery, busted his butt to get back too... his best linemen are sidelined with injuries.  The guy that rolled up on him last season is right in front of him again, and they can't keep him upright.  He's been hit more than just about any other QB in the league...  AGAIN...  It just blows my mind that people STILL, AFTER ALL THIS, still bash him the way that they do.

Will never happen 

[flynismo]

8 minutes ago, The Mom Gene said:

YUP, absolutely...

We have a QB that just came off ACL/MCL surgery, busted his butt to get back too... his best linemen are sidelined with injuries.  The guy that rolled up on him last season is right in front of him again, and they can't keep him upright.  He's been hit more than just about any other QB in the league...  AGAIN...  It just blows my mind that people STILL, AFTER ALL THIS, still bash him the way that they do.

And just played with a Freakin' rotator cuff injury on his throwing arm, after which he tries to downplay it and say "my arm was fine". Yeah...I'm sure his arm was fine when he's throwing with an aggravated rotator cuff.

Maybe Ben is on to something...if he doesn't ham it up every time he scrapes his knee, PIT fans will act the way we do and incessantly whine and complain about him.

Edited November 1, 2016 by flynismo

[Ravensfan23]

8 hours ago, Tru11 said:

Do you think flacco would match Brees numbers if he where in that system?

BTW its not a QB friendly system.
Brees almost avg 40 pass attemtps per game lol

 

I can't say if Flacco would match Brees because I don't wanna take anything away from Drew he's a great QB. but what I will say is that Joe Flacco would be a better QB in that system. The same way Matt Cassel was a better QB in the Pats system and Matt Flynn in the Packers system. Did that make them better than Brady and ARod? No but they we're better in that system. I strongly believe Sean Payton would bring out the best in Flacco. 

As fat as the system being QB funny, the funny part is thinking that pass attempts determine if a system is QB friendly or not. It's not about the number of attempts it's about how the offense puts the QB in favorable situation. An offense that has 5WRs on the field and it's schemed to have a WR running open if he wins his match-up is much more QB friendly than a offense that's asks UDFA WR to be precise route runners because you're running 90% ISO routes. 

So my question to you is do you think Brees would be the same all world QB if he stayed under Cam? Or he came to Baltimore where the emphasis wasn't on surrounding him with top talent or keeping continuity with the offense?

[AsianRice]

7 hours ago, PurpleHorseman said:

Good post

Not coaching up young talented WRs is catching up to Joe Flacco. He is not benefiting from years of chemistry. Same can be said for the OC. For all of Harbaugh's accolades he is not an offensive guru. So it is natural that there is going to be multiple OC's to find a really good one. Then it is natural a really good OC is going to take a coaching job elsewhere.

The OL and offense is way out of whack. And so is Joe Flacco. Joe is rattled from the hits. It throws his timing and mechanics out of whack. Flacco hears footsteps from his previous drop backs and hits. The run game works sometimes. When it is on there is zero confidence to keep the run game working. And Flacco and his WRs due to the pressure, fails to get his piece of the machine working before the run game begins to get stuffed. The OL allows no timing and rythym for Flacco and his WR's. Thus all the short dumpoff tosses.

 Many fans have cited the cut block as the reason many offenses are struggling at times. And I think those people are correct. As matter of fact, fans do not realize how much it is hurting Offenses, QBs, WR's,timing,rythym and the OL.  Offensive lineman with average talent get it done by keeping the DL off balance and guessing. Which effects the DL rythym and aggression when he has to anticipate a cut block. The smarter lineman even when missing the talent element consistently makes effective blocks through technique and mixing up his block techniques. The cut block is the biggest weapon for many technicians and all blockers really. I think it was Kevin Mawae that said in an interview the cut block extended his career beyond his dominant playing days. The cut block is that effective.  From Rushing the QB or trying to fight through a block to get the RB. To slowing down an explosive defensive players pursuit or explosive jump off the line. The cut block was a necessary Weapon for many blockers success. With all the rule changes favoring the offense. Eliminating the low cut block has leveled the scale a little. Many lineman are struggling and the offense with them. 

Joe Flacco when given a clean comfortable pocket and allowed to scan through his weapons throws a beautiful pinpoint accurate football. As good as there is in the NFL. When his OL dominates he is as good as any QB in the NFL. No QB is as dependent on his OL as Joe Flacco. And that is not a bad thing. When his OL struggles he can play below average. When his OL dominates he is as good as Roethlisberger. (See 2012 playoffs)The way it looks I think is the only difference between Flacco and the top 5 QBs is their skills in going through progressions at warp speed. Flacco needs his time to go through his progressions and anticipate the longer intermediate and long throws. Especially when throwing over the middle with so much going on. When given time in a clean pocket Joe can make pinpoint accurate tight spiral throws with his eyes shut. 

Forget stats. Just use your instincts and the eye test. Do you see Joe lighting up the scoreboard with a dominant OL and run game? In an offense that effectively mixes run and throw. Even with good WRs that run effective routes as opposed to the freaks like Green. If ravens rebuild their OL, it is conceivable that next year everybody laughs about this year Joe is having. While he is one of the most prolific QBs in the NFL. And ravens offense as good as any as there is in the NFL. 

With the cut block eliminated, talented Offensive lineman will be at a premium. Blockers with average size and talent will have a harder time being successful. I think let's out think the league while fixing the OL, protecting the investment in Flacco and helping Joe and the offense light up scoreboards. I think the OL should be the focus in the draft and FA. Our rivals will begin to figure out the need for more size and skill on the OL with the cut block eliminated. Their salary will escalate while a bigger premium is laid on them in the draft. Because traditionally adequate blockers will begin to struggle with a big part of their repertoire 86'ed. I know some will say I'm making excuses for Flacco. But many offenses are struggling. Look at Jacksonville. A mostly adequate line that is now struggling. And it's QB and best WR with it. I think even his biggest critics acknowledge to themselves Joe can be as good as any QB when his OL dominates.

 

Very thoughtful and educated post....learn a few things about your post....

[Tru11]

7 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I can't say if Flacco would match Brees because I don't wanna take anything away from Drew he's a great QB. but what I will say is that Joe Flacco would be a better QB in that system. The same way Matt Cassel was a better QB in the Pats system and Matt Flynn in the Packers system. Did that make them better than Brady and ARod? No but they we're better in that system. I strongly believe Sean Payton would bring out the best in Flacco. 

As fat as the system being QB funny, the funny part is thinking that pass attempts determine if a system is QB friendly or not. It's not about the number of attempts it's about how the offense puts the QB in favorable situation. An offense that has 5WRs on the field and it's schemed to have a WR running open if he wins his match-up is much more QB friendly than a offense that's asks UDFA WR to be precise route runners because you're running 90% ISO routes. 

So my question to you is do you think Brees would be the same all world QB if he stayed under Cam? Or he came to Baltimore where the emphasis wasn't on surrounding him with top talent or keeping continuity with the offense?

Yes i believe Brees would be the same all world QB.

His 2 last seasons as a Charger where under Cameron and he made the pro bowl and had top 10 stats.
He actually won comeback player of the year under Cameron.

Pretty good coming back after a big injury TBH.
heck the Chargers just drafted his replacement after they feared he would never be able to play at a high level again.

Anyone that watched him play should see it tbh.

He has good mechanics.
He knows how to move around in the pocket like he has eyes in his back.
He can read defenses.
He can make pre snap adjustments.
He is pretty darn accurate with his ball placement and seems to know how to hit his receivers in stride. 
Im actually quite impressed with how he mastered the offense and seems to be in full control.
He is not perfect in that system but he is the closest to it tbh.

His abilities speak for itself.

Heck when he signed with NO , he had to go to a new team , in a new city , with a new coach , new players , new coordinators, new scheme not to mention had to deal with the aftermaths of  hurricane katrina.

He played lights out from the start which speaks volumes on how good he really is.

His talent and IQ would make him a top 10 QB in at least in any system other then the read option.
Same would go for Brady and Rodgers and Peyton.

They are simply just that good.

There are players that transcend scheme/system.

 

 

[Tru11]

12 hours ago, flynismo said:

We're talking pure statistics? Then I'd say yeah, probably. If not, he wouldn't be far off.

Not trying to mitigate Brees in the least, but we're talking numbers here; the majority of those 40+ attempts he gets every week are to receivers in great matchups and/or just flat out wide open. And well, he gets a lot of garbage time stats too.

Between the system and the guys over there, it's easy to see why a talented QB like Brees is a FF stud.

so you are saying that flacco is on the same level as drew brees in:

- being able to throw accurate passes and being able to hit receivers in stride

- being able to read defense

- being able to make pre snap adjustments

- being able to completely master a system

- being able to sense pressure and move in the pocket

- having good mechanics

from what i see brees is simply a much better QB then flacco in pretty much every category except pure arm strength.
system and players are not the only thing that separates them IMO.

its IMO really crazy talk that people actually think that the system and players are the only things what separates flacco from the likes of brady brees and rodgers.

 

[jdynamite]

On 10/31/2016 at 4:05 PM, Ravensfan23 said:

Most of those guys are high round draft picks though, so there is more to work with than 6 rounders and UDFAs. Henderson, Meachem, Cooks and Thomas are all first round picks. So by the notion that Brees makes his WRs better shouldn't all those guys be pro bowlers? The fact that Brees is still able to have high passing totals is because of the system. Who was Brees in SD? Why wasn't he putting up MVP type numbers? Now i don't take anything away from Brees because he still has to be good enough to run the system, but if anyone can't see how QB friendly that system is, they are kidding themselves.

The one than all those guys you named have in common is that they have been in the same system for 10 years. The only guy i'd say is really a cut above the rest is Peyton. Those guys are surrounded by great talent year in and year out and because they are allowed to stay in the same system each year, they have a great handle on what they want to do because they've probably seen every coverage you can think of against their offense in the past 10 years. 

Now i'm not saying this to take anything way from those guys because as you said they command their offenses so well and I'd expect nothing less being in the same offense, with the same coach for 10. Also i'm not pointing this to excuses Flacco in any way. But those guys have been in the same system for 10 years while Flacco has had what, 5 OCs in 8+ years, some of which is definitely his fault. Those guys are fortunate enough to play in QB friendly systems and have been in those systems for 10 years. Their offenses is equivalent to what the Ravens defense was from during the 2000s. You could place almost anyone in the Ravens defense and they'd look better than what they probably were, 

Please note I didn't mention Cooks or the rookie M.Thomas.  I chose guys that Brees put up 700-800+ yds to in a given season and those guys never experienced that production again... 

i wrote Devery Henderson ( 2nd rounder ) , Lance Moore ( undrafted), Kenny stills ( 5th rounder), Robert meachem (1st 27th pick ).  So no they aren't all 1st rounders. Not to mention jimmy graham (3rd round) with Brees vs without brees has been astonishing so far.   M.Colston (7th round).  Heck Brees made Ben Watson look so good Ozzie was dumb enough to sign the aging tightend..

Who was Brees in San Diego only the guy they were constantly trying to replace with Flutie first then Rivers ( with 1 Pro Bowl in SD )  Which makes Brees passing accomplishments all the more impressive to me I never envisioned Drew Brees becoming the passer he became, I live in Louisiana so ive seen plenty of saints football.  Look at it like this even if Brees wasn't all time great in his first 5 years I think he's more than made up for it since, how can someone question Brees first 5 years and defend Flacco inconsistency at the same time quite the conundrum. 

* in my original post I delete P.Rivers because everyone likes to say he doesn't go deep in the playoffs he's a regular season stats guy, but Rivers has had a couple HC changes, injuries to himself, turnover at the WR and RB positions multiple times and poor olines for at least 4 years. 

The system reminds me of the Run & Shoot office but only Jim Kelly really perfected that.   There was a time when they said Mike Martz system was plug and play and Kurt warner was merely a product of it.  

Dont get me wrong of course familiarity with a system is important but these QBs have the special talent and skill levels to make that work at such an efficient level too. 

I've never been a Flacco hater, but I've never been delusional either I never thought he would all of sudden reach a new level after that super bowl become 65+%  passer dropping dimes into tight coverage at will.   

 

[flynismo]

4 hours ago, Tru11 said:

so you are saying that flacco is on the same level as drew brees in:

- being able to throw accurate passes and being able to hit receivers in stride

- being able to read defense

- being able to make pre snap adjustments

- being able to completely master a system

- being able to sense pressure and move in the pocket

- having good mechanics

from what i see brees is simply a much better QB then flacco in pretty much every category except pure arm strength.
system and players are not the only thing that separates them IMO.

its IMO really crazy talk that people actually think that the system and players are the only things what separates flacco from the likes of brady brees and rodgers.

 

- accuracy: the only area Flacco is on Brees' level there is on intermediate routes; MAYBE deep routes as well. Brees is actually extremely underrated as a deep passer because of his lack of arm strength. I'd say Brees is a little more accurate on deep routes, but Flacco's length and velocity is obviously far superior. Short passes (under 10 yards from scrimmage) Brees all day.

- reading a defense: I'd hope Brees does that better, given that he has been in the NFL nearly twice as long as Flacco.

- pre-snap adjustments:  Brees doesn't make all that much more adjustments than Flacco, or any other QB. He does make quality adjustments. But so does Flacco. Note that we're only speaking adjustments that are obvious to us; as fans we are not privy to what was designed and what was made by the QB most of the time.

- being able to master a system:  it isn't hard to master Payton's system. See the guy wide open? Throw it to him. We have no clue how well Flacco can master any given system, since there is no consistency there.

- sense pressure / pocket movement: Flacco moves around in the pocket as well as anyone. Brees has a better "internal clock", but again, he should given his experience advantage over Flacco

- mechanics: no comment.

 

The original question was: would Flacco have the same production as Brees in that system? As I said, I think he would, or be near it. Again, not knocking Brees, but I watch that team play 3-4 times a year because they're one of my favorite teams in the league (after us obviously). A huge portion of Brees' statistics come from: garbage time, receivers being WIDE open, and a lot of RAC / YAC. It's why statistics are so meaningless. Just like it is foolish to call Flacco a mediocre QB for his mediocre stat lines, it's a discredit to Brees to call him a great QB just because he puts up historic stat lines. Brees transcends the numbers. He is easily better than Brady. Brady does NOT transcend the system (i.e. would be great anywhere). Brees does. But I digress, not trying to turn this into a Brady vs Brees debate.

[flynismo]

4 hours ago, jdynamite said:

I've never been a Flacco hater, but I've never been delusional either I never thought he would all of sudden reach a new level after that super bowl become 65+%  passer dropping dimes into tight coverage at will.

He was doing exactly that the first five games of this season. People need to make catches in order for fans to notice it. If stats are what determines reaching a new level, he'll never reach that here.

Edited November 2, 2016 by flynismo

[jdynamite]

29 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

so you are saying that flacco is on the same level as drew brees in:

- being able to throw accurate passes and being able to hit receivers in stride

- being able to read defense

- being able to make pre snap adjustments

- being able to completely master a system

- being able to sense pressure and move in the pocket

- having good mechanics

from what i see brees is simply a much better QB then flacco in pretty much every category except pure arm strength.
system and players are not the only thing that separates them IMO.

its IMO really crazy talk that people actually think that the system and players are the only things what separates flacco from the likes of brady brees and rodgers.

 

Yeah I agree with you. I get supporting Flacco as the teams QB.

Just pre snap recognition alone sets them way apart.  Brees is out there moving guys around, creating those mismatches based off what the defense shows him.  

Brees completion percentage is always in the mid-60s, he's not tossing a ton of dump off passes either..

 

Brees has been so good that NFL media forgot that they used to say " Brees is too small , too short to be an effective passer he can't see over the Oline " 

None of this means Brees is absolved of wrong doing while playing, he throws ints, gets sacked etc as well. 

[flynismo]

4 hours ago, jdynamite said:

Just pre snap recognition alone sets them way apart.  Brees is out there moving guys around, creating those mismatches based off what the defense shows him.  

Brees completion percentage is always in the mid-60s, he's not tossing a ton of dump off passes either..

What are you basing these comments off of? I watch Brees play a lot, and while he doesn't throw any more dump offs than most QBs, he doesn't need to because he has someone open nearly every play. Even if it's a quick toss to the TE two yards upfield, that's there for him.

And as for moving guys around creating mismatches...again, doesn't do that more than most QBs. Certainly nothing like Manning used to do, which is how it sounds you mean it

[jdynamite]

24 minutes ago, flynismo said:

He was doing exactly that the first five games of this season. People need to make catches in order for fans to notice it. If stats are what determines reaching a new level, he'll never reach that here.

 

It's not stats alone, it's command of the offense.

 Similar to that first game when he called the audible hit Wallace on that bomb.   He saw the defense picked up on it, made the appropriate adjustment something great happened. 

 

Ive always wanted to see more fluidity within this offense, for years a blamed Cam Cameron for the lack of creativity, the inability to sustain drives, to attack multiple levels of a defense and just have some offensive consistency quarter to quarter, game to game. 

Now we've had Caldwell, Kubiak, Trestman & Mornhinweg, same issues continue, for whatever reason the Ravens due not use those timing routes likes slants, drags effectively WRs aren't hit in stride. The offense doesn't include much motion, no option routes why is that?  

There has been some clear drops by WRs on catchable balls, and there has been "drops" on passes where WRs made efforts to hall in tough passes ( type of catches boldin made a living out of hauling in )  Now I'd like to see WR make more plays and bail him out but they aren't making those plays currently. 

[jdynamite]

25 minutes ago, flynismo said:

What are you basing these comments off of? I watch Brees play a lot, and while he doesn't throw any more dump offs than most QBs, he doesn't need to because he has someone open nearly every play. Even if it's a quick toss to the TE two yards upfield, that's there for him.

And as for moving guys around creating mismatches...again, doesn't do that more than most QBs. Certainly nothing like Manning used to do, which is how it sounds you mean it

IMO theres no reason to even mention Peyton manning in these convos most of the time because nobody really does all the things Peyton did.  

 

Im talking about Brees in that comment because the person I quoted was speaking particularly about Brees and his attributes in comparison with Flacco.  

This offense for whatever reason doesn't use much motion... for the life of me I can't figure out why.... 

So you telling me when Brees at the line giving a hard count to a defense then he pauses points out the safety or LB, puts a guy in motion, then he hits a slant in stride for 15 yards to the side the WR motioned from.   ( that's just an open WR, not the QB seeing something on the field, manipulating the formation and playcall to benefit him ) 

no Brees isn't the only QB doing that but we don't have that going on here, it is truly a rarity to see a weakness in the opposing teams secondary and see it exploited relentlessly.. 

like how Brady to do us with R.Melvin, they hit that kid with so many different looks, WR screens, slants, drags, double moves...

 

[jdynamite]

59 minutes ago, flynismo said:

- accuracy: the only area Flacco is on Brees' level there is on intermediate routes; MAYBE deep routes as well. Brees is actually extremely underrated as a deep passer because of his lack of arm strength. I'd say Brees is a little more accurate on deep routes, but Flacco's length and velocity is obviously far superior. Short passes (under 10 yards from scrimmage) Brees all day.

- reading a defense: I'd hope Brees does that better, given that he has been in the NFL nearly twice as long as Flacco.

- pre-snap adjustments:  Brees doesn't make all that much more adjustments than Flacco, or any other QB. He does make quality adjustments. But so does Flacco. Note that we're only speaking adjustments that are obvious to us; as fans we are not privy to what was designed and what was made by the QB most of the time.

- being able to master a system:  it isn't hard to master Payton's system. See the guy wide open? Throw it to him. We have no clue how well Flacco can master any given system, since there is no consistency there.

- sense pressure / pocket movement: Flacco moves around in the pocket as well as anyone. Brees has a better "internal clock", but again, he should given his experience advantage over Flacco

- mechanics: no comment.

 

The original question was: would Flacco have the same production as Brees in that system? As I said, I think he would, or be near it. Again, not knocking Brees, but I watch that team play 3-4 times a year because they're one of my favorite teams in the league (after us obviously). A huge portion of Brees' statistics come from: garbage time, receivers being WIDE open, and a lot of RAC / YAC. It's why statistics are so meaningless. Just like it is foolish to call Flacco a mediocre QB for his mediocre stat lines, it's a discredit to Brees to call him a great QB just because he puts up historic stat lines. Brees transcends the numbers. He is easily better than Brady. Brady does NOT transcend the system (i.e. would be great anywhere). Brees does. But I digress, not trying to turn this into a Brady vs Brees debate.

 

Ok I'm glad I got to read this. I was wondering if you hated Brees for some odd reason until I read this. I've always felt like your consistent insistance like hey everybody's open all the time like you're saying Brees is garbage lol. 

And even with Brees stat lines I can tell you every Sunday my Facebook is full of the Saints fans calling for his head because "his contract is why our defense is so sorry blah blah." So it's no different than people on here lol.  

Every now and then I tell some of friends co-workers etc they better remember what those brown bags felt like that.  So many years of only have the saints on tv down here in Louisiana then if it wasn't the saints it was the cowgirls. 

[Ravensfan23]

27 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

Yes i believe Brees would be the same all world QB.

His 2 last seasons as a Charger where under Cameron and he made the pro bowl and had top 10 stats.
He actually won comeback player of the year under Cameron.

Pretty good coming back after a big injury TBH.
heck the Chargers just drafted his replacement after they feared he would never be able to play at a high level again.

Anyone that watched him play should see it tbh.

He has good mechanics.
He knows how to move around in the pocket like he has eyes in his back.
He can read defenses.
He can make pre snap adjustments.
He is pretty darn accurate with his ball placement and seems to know how to hit his receivers in stride. 
Im actually quite impressed with how he mastered the offense and seems to be in full control.
He is not perfect in that system but he is the closest to it tbh.

His abilities speak for itself.

Heck when he signed with NO , he had to go to a new team , in a new city , with a new coach , new players , new coordinators, new scheme not to mention had to deal with the aftermaths of  hurricane katrina.

He played lights out from the start which speaks volumes on how good he really is.

His talent and IQ would make him a top 10 QB in at least in any system other then the read option.
Same would go for Brady and Rodgers and Peyton.

They are simply just that good.

There are players that transcend scheme/system.

 

 

What is this injury you speak of? I hope it's not the torn labrum he suffered because that came in his last game as a Chargers, so 2004 and 2005 he was completely healthy. Philip Rivers was drafted in the 1st round of the 2004 draft because after taking over the starting job in 2001, Drew Brees was not getting the job done. Over the course of 2 seasons(02-03) that great QB with such great accuracy, who transcended Cam's scheme/system completed less than 60% of his passes, threw more Ints than TDs and was played so poorly that he was benched in the 2003 season in favor of Doug Flutie. So you're telling me that this is the guy that anyone watching him should have been able to see he was this great QB? Again are we actually watching guys play or just buying into media hype an stats? No knock to Brees just fact. 

So now let's look at those final 2 seasons where Brees played so well in your opinion. He never throw for more than 3,500 yards and 24 TDs. In fact his best season statistically under Cam was 2005. His numbers. 64%  3,576yd 24TDs 15Ints and he was a Pro Bowl alternative(but he was hurt too). My intent is not to make this a Flacco vs Brees post, but it'd be remiss of me not to point out that Joe Flacco in his 2nd NFL season (2009) performed in the same system to the tune of 63% 3,613yds 21TDs 12ints. Of course we can't do this, but put Flacco in that 2005 class and he's top 10 in every major category. Again are we watching guys play or just looking at stats and buying into media hype?

Now he's the point to my entire argument. I agree with all the abilities that you listed for Drew Brees. However what in my opinion took him to another level was the pairing between he and Sean Payton's system. Cam's system didn't bring out the best in Brees. Why because it asked Brees to hold onto the ball and allow routes to develop down field, it called for him to make tight window throws, it called for him to be under center the majority of the time and rarely ran an uptempo type offense unless it was a 2min drill. Payton saw how Brees was being under utilized and what he did was allow Brees to stay in the things he already did well and didn't ask him to fit into a system that really didn't fit him. Again i'm talking system not how good or bad the player is. If Brees stays in Cam's system he would have continued to be a top 10 type QB, but wouldn't be the HOF type QB he is with Payton. 

All those things he does well that you pointed out, he didn't do with the Chargers because his system didn't call of it. Payton allowed Brees to do a lot of the same things he did at Purdue and keep him in his comfort level. Brees has been in that offense for 10 years, i'd expect nothing less than him to have mastered it and be able to move WRs around to attack defenses. That offense is designed to spread the ball around and spread the offense wide to allow guys space to work. As i said before, that system is very QB friendly and he's been in it for 10 years.  

[flynismo]

4 hours ago, jdynamite said:

 

It's not stats alone, it's command of the offense.

 Similar to that first game when he called the audible hit Wallace on that bomb.   He saw the defense picked up on it, made the appropriate adjustment something great happened. 

 

Ive always wanted to see more fluidity within this offense, for years a blamed Cam Cameron for the lack of creativity, the inability to sustain drives, to attack multiple levels of a defense and just have some offensive consistency quarter to quarter, game to game. 

Now we've had Caldwell, Kubiak, Trestman & Mornhinweg, same issues continue, for whatever reason the Ravens due not use those timing routes likes slants, drags effectively WRs aren't hit in stride. The offense doesn't include much motion, no option routes why is that?  

There has been some clear drops by WRs on catchable balls, and there has been "drops" on passes where WRs made efforts to hall in tough passes ( type of catches boldin made a living out of hauling in )  Now I'd like to see WR make more plays and bail him out but they aren't making those plays currently. 

Actually, we do use a lot of timing routes, but I agree 100% that we dont even do basic things like putting guys in motion. Whether that's on Flacco, the OC or both, I dont know, but it HAS to change at some point

Edited November 2, 2016 by flynismo

[flynismo]

4 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Philip Rivers was drafted in the 1st round of the 2004 draft because after taking over the starting job in 2001, Drew Brees was not getting the job done.

I hate bringing that up, because I love me some Drew Brees. But facts are facts...he was pretty bad early on in his career.

It's also no coincidence he blew up the moment he went to the Saints. It was a career changing move for him, in more ways than one.

Edited November 2, 2016 by flynismo

[flynismo]

4 hours ago, jdynamite said:

 

Ok I'm glad I got to read this. I was wondering if you hated Brees for some odd reason until I read this. I've always felt like your consistent insistance like hey everybody's open all the time like you're saying Brees is garbage lol.

No way Jose! Brees is my second favorite active QB, after The Flacco. I know I'll get called a homer by the usual trolls for this, but Brees and Rodgers are the only guys I'd ever consider having here over Flacco. And that's only in the regular season. Nobody can sniff Flacco's jockstrap come January/February.

[flynismo]

4 hours ago, jdynamite said:

IMO theres no reason to even mention Peyton manning in these convos most of the time because nobody really does all the things Peyton did.  

 

Im talking about Brees in that comment because the person I quoted was speaking particularly about Brees and his attributes in comparison with Flacco.  

This offense for whatever reason doesn't use much motion... for the life of me I can't figure out why.... 

So you telling me when Brees at the line giving a hard count to a defense then he pauses points out the safety or LB, puts a guy in motion, then he hits a slant in stride for 15 yards to the side the WR motioned from.   ( that's just an open WR, not the QB seeing something on the field, manipulating the formation and playcall to benefit him ) 

no Brees isn't the only QB doing that but we don't have that going on here, it is truly a rarity to see a weakness in the opposing teams secondary and see it exploited relentlessly.. 

like how Brady to do us with R.Melvin, they hit that kid with so many different looks, WR screens, slants, drags, double moves...

 

Ah yeah, I think I see what you're saying. Relative to us, he certainly does do the small things much more, like moving guys around. And yes, we really, really need to do something about that.

[Ravensfan23]

2 hours ago, jdynamite said:

Please note I didn't mention Cooks or the rookie M.Thomas.  I chose guys that Brees put up 700-800+ yds to in a given season and those guys never experienced that production again... 

i wrote Devery Henderson ( 2nd rounder ) , Lance Moore ( undrafted), Kenny stills ( 5th rounder), Robert meachem (1st 27th pick ).  So no they aren't all 1st rounders. Not to mention jimmy graham (3rd round) with Brees vs without brees has been astonishing so far.   M.Colston (7th round).  Heck Brees made Ben Watson look so good Ozzie was dumb enough to sign the aging tightend..

Who was Brees in San Diego only the guy they were constantly trying to replace with Flutie first then Rivers ( with 1 Pro Bowl in SD )  Which makes Brees passing accomplishments all the more impressive to me I never envisioned Drew Brees becoming the passer he became, I live in Louisiana so ive seen plenty of saints football.  Look at it like this even if Brees wasn't all time great in his first 5 years I think he's more than made up for it since, how can someone question Brees first 5 years and defend Flacco inconsistency at the same time quite the conundrum. 

* in my original post I delete P.Rivers because everyone likes to say he doesn't go deep in the playoffs he's a regular season stats guy, but Rivers has had a couple HC changes, injuries to himself, turnover at the WR and RB positions multiple times and poor olines for at least 4 years. 

The system reminds me of the Run & Shoot office but only Jim Kelly really perfected that.   There was a time when they said Mike Martz system was plug and play and Kurt warner was merely a product of it.  

Dont get me wrong of course familiarity with a system is important but these QBs have the special talent and skill levels to make that work at such an efficient level too. 

I've never been a Flacco hater, but I've never been delusional either I never thought he would all of sudden reach a new level after that super bowl become 65+%  passer dropping dimes into tight coverage at will.   

 

This is my entire point. Also while I quoted your post, I was basically speaking to the notion that Brees makes guys better or makes something out of nothing. I pointed out that "most" were high picks because people seem to think that Brees is just throwing to guys off the streets. He's not, the Saints do their best to supply him with quality talent, unlike the Ravens who are more likely to supply Flacco with developmental type WRs and a past their prime Vets. Just look at amount of WRs/TEs drafted over the first 3 rounds by the Saints since signing Brees in 2006. Thomas 2nd rd(2016), Cooks 1st rd(2014), Toon 2nd rd(2012), Graham 3rd rd(2010), Meachem 1st rd(2007). That's not to mention to 1st round RBs in Bush and Ingram who had at least one season of 50+ catches to add to the passing attack. Bush had 88rec and 73rec in 06' and 07' respectively, while Ingram had 50rec in 2015. So let's not act like Brees is constantly surrounded by these no name,no talent players. 

Brees was a guy that under Cam in that "system" who SD benched and tried to replace at every turn. His Pro Bowl numbers during the 2004 and 2005 (4th and 5th seaons) numbers are almost identical to Joe Flacco's numbers during his 2009 and 2010 seasons(2nd & 3rd). As I said in my post to @Tru11 it's not about comparing Brees to Flacco. I think Drew Brees is one of the greatest QBs of this era and I think he makes that system just as much as it makes him. The point is, he didn't look the part during his first 5 years in SD under Cam. Then as soon as he gets to NO under Payton you see the real Drew Brees stand up because Payton was able to highlight his talents. Those guys you named has been allowed to develop and practice with Brees for 4+ years. Flacco hasn't even been in the same system for 4+ years. 

 

[Ravensfan23]

1 hour ago, flynismo said:

I hate bringing that up, because I love me some Drew Brees. But facts are facts...he was pretty bad early on in his career.

It's also no coincidence he blew up the moment he went to the Saints. It was a career changing move for him, in more ways than one.

Oh no doubt, I hate bring it up too because Drew is the man. He and ARod are two of my favortie guys to watch. It's just funny to me when I see people talk about how he's made players better, to transcended the system Patyon is using, uh he's been in that system for 10 freaking years. Hell his first 2 seasons in NO Reggie Bush was the leading pass catcher in 05 and 2nd on the team in 06, people would have called Flacco a check down king for that lol. The fact is, Brees and Payton are a great pair. Brees has been allowed to develop in that system and Payton put more and more trust in him to the point where you can basically call it Bress' offense. 

All that pre-snap movement and reading, I'm not sure if people realize that it takes place in the classroom before it happens on the field and it's a built in part of the offense. Brees isn't just saying to hell with what Payton called i'm gonna move my WRs around to find the matchup that suits me, the system allows him to do that and they practice it all week long for years. If you're practicing and playing in the same system day in day out, year after year, I'd expect nothing less than for you to be the best. Especially when you're as talented as Drew Brees. 

[Ravensfan23]

3 hours ago, jdynamite said:

Dont get me wrong of course familiarity with a system is important but these QBs have the special talent and skill levels to make that work at such an efficient level too. 

I've never been a Flacco hater, but I've never been delusional either I never thought he would all of sudden reach a new level after that super bowl become 65+%  passer dropping dimes into tight coverage at will.   

 

Had to break up my replies to you because I didn't want one post taking up so much space. 

It's not about being delusional. Flacco has shown his talent over and over again. From his delaware days, he was regarded as a guy who could make any throw on the field and was really accurate as well.....when his mechanics were good. I believe it was Trent Dilfer who said that Flacco was one of the rare QBs he every scouted who had the ability to put the ball on a string because he could place the ball anywhere the field with accuracy. Go back and watch his highlights from 09 and 10 seasons. You'll see Flacco making some of the best throws you ever seen a QB make. You'll notice him often standing tall in the pocket and stepping into his throws more consistently, climbing the pocket to avoid the rush and just dropping dimes. It shouldn't come as a surprise that those where the Hue Jackson and Jim Zorn years. Than after that his mechanics started getting sloppy and his play wasn't as consistent. 

Flacco was entering his prime and it was no surprise to me that he had the type of Super Bowl that he had because I was it for the past 3 season. The problem was, while it should have been consistency and and stability surrounding the QB position, the Ravens made constant change and has never had that type of QB to Coach success that teams like the Pats, Packers and Saints have. I wonder where Joe Flacco would be if he was allowed to actually develop in Kubiak's system for 4 or 5 years instead of getting introduced to the good life only to have it stripped away by more change. 

[1/28/01]

On 10/30/2016 at 11:29 PM, flynismo said:

Oh yeah, I mentioned how if Aikman, Griese and Namath can get in the HOF, then Flacco has a good shot at it too. You should have seen how ruffled the anti-Flacco trolls feathers got after that one haha...

Dude, you're still mentioning Flacco and HoF in the same sentence?  Hee hee, ha!

[flynismo]

4 hours ago, 1/28/01 said:

Dude, you're still mentioning Flacco and HoF in the same sentence?  Hee hee, ha!

Cool story

[flynismo]

4 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

All that pre-snap movement and reading, I'm not sure if people realize that it takes place in the classroom before it happens on the field and it's a built in part of the offense.

I think (hope) most realize that, but the question is why aren't we doing it? It frustrates me to no end...there is zero creativity in this offense. 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

If(and I'm a huge Flacco fan and find this unlikely) Flacco has two more dominant postseason runs and leads us to two more rings then he has a legeitment chance at the hall of fame. His statistics may not be gaudy, but Flacco has a reputation for playing well in big games. But it's doubtful given that we have had a few poor drafts here and there. We're a few pieces away. Guys like Maxx and Perriman still have another year to prove themselves in my eyes, and it's way too early to call them busts. Chris Moore could develop into a nice #3 player. 

 

We honestly need to take the cowboys approach to this. We need to keep building up the line. It doesn't have to be an all world offensive line, just one that is good enough. That's where the Flacco haters get it wrong. That oline wasn't elite, and neither were the weapons. Boldin played the best football of his career(but still not up to par of a Megatron so hush) and Jacoby made 3 big plays.

 

We're actually not too far off. Ozzie's built the team from the middle out and found a few good pieces. It's just that some of our fans are pathetic. 

 

Oh, and whether Flacco stinks up the joint this year or not is irrelevant, he's staying. Sorry guys. He played decently the first five games of the year. He sucked butt vs the Jets, and even I can admit that, but wow.

 

Seriously. It's freaking football. I have food poisoning damnit so I have the right to be angry at the moment lol, go find something to be happy about. There is plenty of good in this world.