Joe Flacco: Tough Talk

[K-Dog]

3 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

Just ignore and don't reply. 

<3 ignore button . 

[Edug27]

4 hours ago, Sami84 said:

we wont be making the playoffs until flacco is off the books.

Which won't happen for another 7-8 years. Which is the same amount of time you'll spend complaining about it. 

[Rav'n Maniac]

15 minutes ago, Edug27 said:

Which won't happen for another 7-8 years. Which is the same amount of time you'll spend complaining about it. 

Nooooo, pleeeeease for the love of God, don't go there!

[ratedr]

First post in the thread is spot on. Flacco is literally a bottom-tier QB right now. His playoff run was legendary, yes, we know. But that was 4 seasons ago. He has not had a truly great game since 2014. I was not in support of the Ravens extending his contract over the offseason and that decision looks even worse right now. He was coming off an ACL (and it's not like he was great last year before the injury) and was thus a question mark.

The worst part about it is that the Ravens have absolutely no leverage when it comes to him.

Edited October 31, 2016 by ratedr

[jdynamite]

13 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

It's the system. The Ravens system focuses on guys being about to run precise routes, but they never draft those type guys. Imo that's why only vets really have success here. But as you said Mase is really the only guy who consistently got open. But the Ravens rarely run combo routes. it's usually all iso routes. They rarely attack areas of the field or weaker players in the secondary. I think the only time I've seen the Ravens run a fake WR screen than throw down field was vs SD in 2009 a TD pass to Kelly Washington. 

Here's a article from last year about what's wrong with the Packers offense, It spoke about how with Nelson hurt(talent) they struggled to create separation and because of it the team needs to run more combo routes. The Ravens definitely need to do this. 

This is what burns me about this offense rarely see, routes that free up other WRs, almost never have any presnap motion to single out weaklinks in the opposing secondary.  

In week one seeing Mike Wallace long TD catch and how S.Smith's inside route drew the Safety help away freeing up Wallace for the bomb, had me hoping we'd see more things like that where routes complemented each other so well.

Coming into the season I thought the TE position would be very valuable to this offense and create mismatches ( this was before even knowing Pitta would be healthy ) now fast-forward Watson IR & Maxx IR, but I still think Pitta, Gilmore &  Waller ( Juice also with his skill level )can make plays. I'm not sure why they can't get creative and use the TEs in different packages to confuse a defense, by having run pass options from those packages. 

It also kills me that receivers are rarely hit in stride where they can gain yac  

 

[Sami84]

1 hour ago, gtalk12 said:

no because I was VERY clear that outside that run he has been very good in the playoffs but you know, I say potatoes and you say how high. You keep on crying about Flacco this and Flacco that as if I said he stays completely clear of any blame. 

 

That being said, it makes absolutely no, NO NO NO NO SENSE to have not signed him. Unless you really want to start over, we have a starting QB that has proven time and time again to be very good in the playoffs. We have no consistency from Flacco, and that includes coaching on the offensive side of the ball. What you and many others do not want to understand or acknowledge is the fact that we have had major turnover at the OC spot. What form of consistency could you every hope for when Flacco and this offense completely change its identity every year? 

 

It went from Cam developing with Flacco, which he did by running the ball and playing uptempo shotgun/bunch formations until we became too stagnant on offense. Then enter Caldwell, took over what Cam had done and did a bit better that same year and we won the chip. What happened the very next year? Everyone left on the offense, Ray Rice never returned to form with his hip injury and Caldwell leaves for a gig over in Detroit.

 

Enter the next year, Kubiak....best of Flacco and what we HAD on offense. Did well in the playoffs and beat the Steelers and almost take the Pats out again in their house. Why did we lose? Was it that pass to Torrey or the fact we had no NO way of stopping the same play from happening to our CB's who to be fair were forced to start thanks to all the injuries we had that year.

 

Instead of building the next year into an even better offense Kubiak left....are you and I watching the same games? Flacco is not and will never be Manning who by the way had the SAME OC for over 8 years. Tom Moore was with Indi for 10 years and developed that playbook with Manning.

 

these are all facts and do not change in anyway the fact that Flacco still misses throws no matter who the OC is. Again, some of the blame falls on him but not all and bringing up the contract is pointless because it has nothing to do with Doom and Suggs being injured or Reed and Lewis leaving the team and getting old.

 

 

2

 

flacco in 2 years time on a random post game loss press conference '' yeah, we have to play better..just cut out the silly mistakes''.

harbaugh '' We really are close, we love joe, joe's the best..we just have to make plays in all phases. Joe's the franchise and that isn't changing no matter what happens. We're better than this. If we just focus on the fundamentals we'll be a winning football team, the talent is there, we have joe! It's up to all of us to turn this around..okay we've had 5 rough seasons but we're a good football team damnit''

 

flacco '' Yeah, how about another 150 dollar deal? you know I did go 11-0 in the post season in 2012...we'll just get a few bargains and draft well and things will be fine, im intending to have kid number 8 and 9 soon and i mean I've only got a few hundred million in the bank for them..''

 

harbs '' you got it joe, let me tell you all something, this is great. So many teams woud love to be in this position, with a superbowl winning QB. It's stability that any NFL team craves and I just feel blessed to be a part of this, it's special..isn't god great??''

 

 

[jdynamite]

27 minutes ago, ratedr said:

First post in the thread is spot on. Flacco is literally a bottom-tier QB right now. His playoff run was legendary, yes, we know. But that was 4 seasons ago. He has not had a truly great game since 2014. I was not in support of the Ravens extending his contract over the offseason and that decision looks even worse right now. He was coming off an ACL (and it's not like he was great last year before the injury) and was thus a question mark.

The worst part about it is that the Ravens have absolutely no leverage when it comes to him.

Yep zero leverage on the hook for at least 2 more years I think, before they could even consider any type of moves at the position..  

 

[Edug27]

15 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

flacco in 2 years time on a random post game loss press conference '' yeah, we have to play better..just cut out the silly mistakes''.

harbaugh '' We really are close, we love joe, joe's the best..we just have to make plays in all phases. Joe's the franchise and that isn't changing no matter what happens. We're better than this. If we just focus on the fundamentals we'll be a winning football team, the talent is there, we have joe! It's up to all of us to turn this around..okay we've had 5 rough seasons but we're a good football team damnit''

 

flacco '' Yeah, how about another 150 dollar deal? you know I did go 11-0 in the post season in 2012...we'll just get a few bargains and draft well and things will be fine, im intending to have kid number 8 and 9 soon and i mean I've only got a few hundred million in the bank for them..''

 

harbs '' you got it joe, let me tell you all something, this is great. So many teams woud love to be in this position, with a superbowl winning QB. It's stability that any NFL team craves and I just feel blessed to be a part of this, it's special..isn't god great??''

 

 

Sami in 2 years time...

"We aren't going to the playoffs until Flaccos contract is off the books!!!"

Sami in 4 years time...

"2 more years until Joe is off the books!!! No playoffs until then!!!!"

Sami in 2023...

"We aren't going to win anything until we get a veteran QB in here! Ozzie can't draft!!!!... Trade for Geno Smith! At least he has experience!"

Sami to his grandchildren....

"Gather around. Let me tell you about the last time the Ravens won a Super Bowl.... His name was Joe Flacco...."

Edited October 31, 2016 by Edug27

[redrum52]

1 hour ago, jdynamite said:

This is what burns me about this offense rarely see, routes that free up other WRs, almost never have any presnap motion to single out weaklinks in the opposing secondary.  

In week one seeing Mike Wallace long TD catch and how S.Smith's inside route drew the Safety help away freeing up Wallace for the bomb, had me hoping we'd see more things like that where routes complemented each other so well.

Coming into the season I thought the TE position would be very valuable to this offense and create mismatches ( this was before even knowing Pitta would be healthy ) now fast-forward Watson IR & Maxx IR, but I still think Pitta, Gilmore &  Waller ( Juice also with his skill level )can make plays. I'm not sure why they can't get creative and use the TEs in different packages to confuse a defense, by having run pass options from those packages. 

It also kills me that receivers are rarely hit in stride where they can gain yac  

 

LOL.  hitting wrs in stride... this is one of the main reasons we don't do well with YAC.

Edited October 31, 2016 by redrum52

[PurpleCity5]

3 hours ago, jazz1988 said:

Both Thompkins and Dobson put up average receiving numbers and caught atleast 49% of their passes. That's not great  or good . I even remember in 2010 when Peyton Manning was having a tough time while  throwing to young inexperienced receivers. Who did Drew Brees really make look  great besides Marques Colston  and Brandin Cook. It's not like Drew Brees  was producing a factor of 1,000 receiving yards + out of any receiver and every receiver he was throwing too.  All these quarterbacks are great  and future hall of famers but i can't pretend like they didn't need a good supporting cast to be successful in this league and again i think it's highly beneficially for these  guys to be in one offensive system for some many years.

 

What offensive system has Joe Flacco really grown into and evolved over the years?

Thompkins and Dobson aren't even good enough to remain on a roster. Both of those guys were really not good WRs, I don't even think they would amount to anything here. 

Did you see the patchwork of an offensive line Brees had to work with from 2013-2014? 2014 his OL was downright awful and his WRs weren't impressive by any stretch of the imagination. 

Manning had Austin Collie to throw to if I can recall and I don't even know who his TEs were. 

As far as the offensive system goes, you might have a point but what I find interesting is that Joe doesn't think its a big deal himself. He spoke out tons of times saying that its not a big deal and that its not rocket science to learn a playbook. We've been using the same offensive system the last two years and he's having the worst two year stretch of his career. 

Again, only a very select few of guys can actually be given an good group of WRs and allow you to not have to over invest in offensive skill positions. The FO expected Joe to be one of those guys. No one is saying no one needs help, just saying you can't expect Joe to shoulder the load if you want to put out less investments in offensive skill positions.

[Sami84]

4 minutes ago, Edug27 said:

Sami in 2 years time...

"We aren't going to the playoffs until Flaccos contract is off the books!!!"

Sami in 4 years time...

"2 more years until Joe is off the books!!! No playoffs until then!!!!"

Sami in 2023...

"We aren't going to win anything until we get a veteran QB in here! Ozzie can't draft!!!!... Trade for Geno Smith! At least he has experience!"

Sami to his grandchildren....

"Gather around. Let me tell you about the last time the Ravens won a Super Bowl.... His name was Joe Flacco...."

 

in that case we are a sorry franchise and the day ozzie and co leave might be a good day..

[Edug27]

23 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

in that case we are a sorry franchise and the day ozzie and co leave might be a good day..

There is a ton of blame to go around for these past 1.5 seasons. But again, we are complaining about 1.5 seasons here..... There are teams complaining about 1.5 decades. Don't overreact. There is a lot of parity in football. The Steelers, Broncos, Giants and whatever top notch franchise you prefer, have all recently been through several consecutive playoff droughts and have recovered.... We haven't experienced that in the last 10 years... Perspective man.... Perspective...

Edited October 31, 2016 by Edug27

[jdynamite]

3 hours ago, jazz1988 said:

Both Thompkins and Dobson put up average receiving numbers and caught atleast 49% of their passes. That's not great  or good . I even remember in 2010 when Peyton Manning was having a tough time while  throwing to young inexperienced receivers. Who did Drew Brees really make look  great besides Marques Colston  and Brandin Cook. It's not like Drew Brees  was producing a factor of 1,000 receiving yards + out of any receiver and every receiver he was throwing too.  All these quarterbacks are great  and future hall of famers but i can't pretend like they didn't need a good supporting cast to be successful in this league and again i think it's highly beneficially for these  guys to be in one offensive system for some many years.

 

What offensive system has Joe Flacco really grown into and evolved over the years?

I'm actually glad you said that he didn't have a factor of 1,000 yd receivers and yet he spreads the ball around enough to still put up those gaudy stats yearly. 

Some people seem to think Brees is throwing to 4 Antonio Browns that are always open but guys like Devry Henderson, Lance Moore, Robert Meachem, Kenny Stills, never had teams beating down doors for them nor did any of them continue that production outside of New Orleans ( Stills might do it at Miami only time will tell but I doubt it with Tannehil ). 

Willie Snead was an undrafted WR that Brees incorporated into that offense seemlessly last season. 

Those 3 QBs named by previous poster Manning, Brees, Brady ( along with A.Rodgers ) to me they operate on different level in terms of commanding an offense, moving players around, directing traffic on the field. Recognizing a coverage calling a hot read, seeing a blitz throwing a quick slant, smoke screen or something. 

[jdynamite]

33 minutes ago, Edug27 said:

Sami in 2 years time...

"We aren't going to the playoffs until Flaccos contract is off the books!!!"

Sami in 4 years time...

"2 more years until Joe is off the books!!! No playoffs until then!!!!"

Sami in 2023...

"We aren't going to win anything until we get a veteran QB in here! Ozzie can't draft!!!!... Trade for Geno Smith! At least he has experience!"

Sami to his grandchildren....

"Gather around. Let me tell you about the last time the Ravens won a Super Bowl.... His name was Joe Flacco...."

Lol you guys are crazy lol

[usmccharles]

6 minutes ago, Edug27 said:

There is a ton of blame to go around for these past 1.5 seasons. But again, we are complaining about 1.5 seasons here..... There are teams complaining about 1.5 decades. Don't overreact. There is a lot of parity in football. The Steelers, Broncos, Giants and whatever top notch franchise you prefer, have all recently been through several consecutive playoff droughts and have recovered.... We haven't experienced that in the last 10 years... Perspective man.... Perspective...

Hey man, I know your kind of new here, but you are beating a dead horse, almost literally.  Sami does this to every thread and has been doing it for a long time, his glass isn't half full, his glass is on pieces on the kitchen floor while he tries to use cotton balls to put it back together.  If he was open to having a decent discussion it would be different, hes not.  Hit the ignore button and enjoy a little less negativity and over-reactions. 

Nobody can argue against the fact that Joe isn't playing good, but the thing that's makes this hard to judge is the amount of issues overall.  The OL, his health, no running game, whatever is going on with the OC position for the last two years.  I never expected Joe to be a 4500 yard 45TD guy, I just want more consistency and in an offense where things have changed so much that's hard.  I will still take Joe over guys like Ryan, Rivers, Romo because they do nothing in the playoffs and that's when Joe finally decides its time to change gears.  Having realistic expectations in life is very important....in all aspects of life

[AsianRice]

It's depressing to read these non-stop complaints; live once and enjoy what you got....

 

[usmccharles]

1 minute ago, AsianRice said:

It's depressing to read these non-stop complaints; live once and enjoy what you got....

 

He must be the life of the party.....

[redrum52]

1 minute ago, AsianRice said:

It's depressing to read these non-stop complaints; live once and enjoy what you got....

 

Tell that crap to Browns fans.

 

I'm half joking.

Edited October 31, 2016 by redrum52

[Edug27]

1 minute ago, usmccharles said:

Hey man, I know your kind of new here, but you are beating a dead horse, almost literally.  Sami does this to every thread and has been doing it for a long time, his glass isn't half full, his glass is on pieces on the kitchen floor while he tries to use cotton balls to put it back together.  If he was open to having a decent discussion it would be different, hes not.  Hit the ignore button and enjoy a little less negativity and over-reactions. 

Nobody can argue against the fact that Joe isn't playing good, but the thing that's makes this hard to judge is the amount of issues overall.  The OL, his health, no running game, whatever is going on with the OC position for the last two years.  I never expected Joe to be a 4500 yard 45TD guy, I just want more consistency and in an offense where things have changed so much that's hard.  I will still take Joe over guys like Ryan, Rivers, Romo because they do nothing in the playoffs and that's when Joe finally decides its time to change gears.  Having realistic expectations in life is very important....in all aspects of life

Haha. Well, there are actually times I agree with him and he does make a valid point. I'm not one of those "see the good in everything" type of fans. But then there are times he's completely out of whack. 

Joe is who he is. Surround him with the right pieces and he'll get the job done. He's not Drew Brees, where he can make something out of nothing. Sami's biggest issue is that Joe's contract is what prevents us from "putting pieces around him". But that subject has been debated to nausea. 

[usmccharles]

Just now, Edug27 said:

Haha. Well, there are actually times I agree with him and he does make a valid point. I'm not one of those "see the good in everything" type of fans. But then there are times he's completely out of whack. 

Joe is who he is. Surround him with the right pieces and he'll get the job done. He's not Drew Brees, where he can make something out of nothing. Sami's biggest issue is that Joe's contract is what prevents us from "putting pieces around him". But that subject has been debated to nausea. 

Yea I agree, I have agreed with him on certain things as well.  I don't think im a see good in everything, I like to think im objective.  Would I rather have Aaron Rodgers, well yea, obviously, but We don't so there is no point in whining about it.  It just gets really old after the comments and not bringing a legit argument other than 'joe sucks man'

[flynismo]

37 minutes ago, Edug27 said:

He's not Drew Brees, where he can make something out of nothing.

By that definition, Drew Brees isn't Drew Brees either...

[Ravensfan23]

1 hour ago, jdynamite said:

I'm actually glad you said that he didn't have a factor of 1,000 yd receivers and yet he spreads the ball around enough to still put up those gaudy stats yearly. 

Some people seem to think Brees is throwing to 4 Antonio Browns that are always open but guys like Devry Henderson, Lance Moore, Robert Meachem, Kenny Stills, never had teams beating down doors for them nor did any of them continue that production outside of New Orleans ( Stills might do it at Miami only time will tell but I doubt it with Tannehil ). 

Willie Snead was an undrafted WR that Brees incorporated into that offense seemlessly last season. 

Those 3 QBs named by previous poster Manning, Brees, Brady ( along with A.Rodgers ) to me they operate on different level in terms of commanding an offense, moving players around, directing traffic on the field. Recognizing a coverage calling a hot read, seeing a blitz throwing a quick slant, smoke screen or something. 

Most of those guys are high round draft picks though, so there is more to work with than 6 rounders and UDFAs. Henderson, Meachem, Cooks and Thomas are all first round picks. So by the notion that Brees makes his WRs better shouldn't all those guys be pro bowlers? The fact that Brees is still able to have high passing totals is because of the system. Who was Brees in SD? Why wasn't he putting up MVP type numbers? Now i don't take anything away from Brees because he still has to be good enough to run the system, but if anyone can't see how QB friendly that system is, they are kidding themselves.

The one than all those guys you named have in common is that they have been in the same system for 10 years. The only guy i'd say is really a cut above the rest is Peyton. Those guys are surrounded by great talent year in and year out and because they are allowed to stay in the same system each year, they have a great handle on what they want to do because they've probably seen every coverage you can think of against their offense in the past 10 years. 

Now i'm not saying this to take anything way from those guys because as you said they command their offenses so well and I'd expect nothing less being in the same offense, with the same coach for 10. Also i'm not pointing this to excuses Flacco in any way. But those guys have been in the same system for 10 years while Flacco has had what, 5 OCs in 8+ years, some of which is definitely his fault. Those guys are fortunate enough to play in QB friendly systems and have been in those systems for 10 years. Their offenses is equivalent to what the Ravens defense was from during the 2000s. You could place almost anyone in the Ravens defense and they'd look better than what they probably were, 

[Ravensfan23]

24 minutes ago, flynismo said:

By that definition, Drew Brees isn't Drew Brees either...

I wonder how many people actually watch these guys play opposed to just looking at stats, highlights and what the so called experts say. 

[usmccharles]

39 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Most of those guys are high round draft picks though, so there is more to work with than 6 rounders and UDFAs. Henderson, Meachem, Cooks and Thomas are all first round picks. So by the notion that Brees makes his WRs better shouldn't all those guys be pro bowlers? The fact that Brees is still able to have high passing totals is because of the system. Who was Brees in SD? Why wasn't he putting up MVP type numbers? Now i don't take anything away from Brees because he still has to be good enough to run the system, but if anyone can't see how QB friendly that system is, they are kidding themselves.

The one than all those guys you named have in common is that they have been in the same system for 10 years. The only guy i'd say is really a cut above the rest is Peyton. Those guys are surrounded by great talent year in and year out and because they are allowed to stay in the same system each year, they have a great handle on what they want to do because they've probably seen every coverage you can think of against their offense in the past 10 years. 

Now i'm not saying this to take anything way from those guys because as you said they command their offenses so well and I'd expect nothing less being in the same offense, with the same coach for 10. Also i'm not pointing this to excuses Flacco in any way. But those guys have been in the same system for 10 years while Flacco has had what, 5 OCs in 8+ years, some of which is definitely his fault. Those guys are fortunate enough to play in QB friendly systems and have been in those systems for 10 years. Their offenses is equivalent to what the Ravens defense was from during the 2000s. You could place almost anyone in the Ravens defense and they'd look better than what they probably were, 

Great post.

[K-Dog]

1 hour ago, AsianRice said:

It's depressing to read these non-stop complaints; live once and enjoy what you got....

 

If people would just stop feeding . 

[flynismo]

4 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I wonder how many people actually watch these guys play opposed to just looking at stats, highlights and what the so called experts say. 

Oh, I think I have a pretty good idea of how many actually watch these other guys play....what I really wonder is whether or not they actually watch our games.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

1 hour ago, flynismo said:

Oh, I think I have a pretty good idea of how many actually watch these other guys play....what I really wonder is whether or not they actually watch our games.

I'm convinced half of them just look at the box score.

 

Side note: I didn't think this forum could make my food poisoning worse, but I ended up vomitting while reading this thread. SMH. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

On 10/24/2016 at 11:17 PM, GhostofGrbac said:

Guys with marginal talent have turned into stars playing with guys like Brees and Brady. Take Marques Colton for example. A 7th round picked turned into one of the best WR's in the game for a few years. Do you honestly think Brees had nothing to do with that?

Brady was a 7th round pick. So by that theory it's been the talent around him making him into a HoF QB?

Brady wasn't amazing at Michigan. Belichicks offense makes studs out of guys who can play. But Moss and Welker were able to succeed elsewhere. Ochocinco couldn't play there. 

And Bree's wasn't making anyone look great in SD and a vertical passing offense that didn't suit his skill set. That's a huge part. Just bc Colston was a 7th rounder doesn't mean Bree's made him. 

Cooks, Sneed, and Thomas all look great now too with varying pedigrees. Ben Watson looked great, but why isn't Fleener now looking amazing?? Luck was able "to make him better." 

Its the offensive system. Bree's fits Payton's offense perfectly and they bring in guys who fit it. They know exactly what they want. 

 

And  this has been part of our problem getting offensive skill players. We've changed OCs so often we don't have an organizational philosophy on offense and exactly what roles need filled and what traits suit those roles best. 

And Joe hasn't been in the same offense for 10+ years where he's ran every play in the book 100,000 times where he can throw to a spot on time with his eyes closed like the other guys. 

 

This isnt to excuse his play this year. Strictly to you QBs making receivers comment. Bree's and Brady benefit from the offensive scheme/philosophy and stability every bit as much as their receivers benefit from them. It's all connected... but the reason they get more with less is bc everyone from OC to QB is so in tune with what they're doing and what is needed on every play that it's easier to find guys to succeed in those roles. 

Quite frankly at times it looks like we're playing backyard football where every play it's on the receivers to beat one on one coverage with no real designed route combos and Joes having to wait until one visually gets separation before throwing. There's no timing, no rhythm, no anticipation. It's all reaction. And that, to me, is the single biggest issue. 

 

For a while the OC changes didn't kill Joe and the offense bc there was personnel stability - Mason to Boldin to Rice to Pitta and Torrey. They had connections and go to type plays they could count on and carried with them through the changes. 

Now there's no one on the offense that he's got that established rapport with. Whether bc of injury, new players, whatever - there's just no relationship (and definitely not multiple relationships at any given time) the offense can hang their hat on. No established connection. And it takes time. 

I remember 2-3 years ago when Edelman and Gronk were hurt and Brady had Dobson, Amendola for the first time, and a couple other rookies - and it was supposedly the downfall of Brady. And that was even in the same offense he had known for 10 years. But take away those relationships/connections and they were lost. 

By week 8-9 guys were healthy and connections grew and then went back to normal. 

Were transitioning for sure. Philosophically, schematically, personnel wise.... and add injuries and an obvious dwindling confidence. It's tough. 

But these guys have been there before and come out of it. It's taking longer than we hoped but it'll improve. Starting this week.

Mini offseason with Marty, improved health and I guarantee a couple steps in the right direction. 

[Tru11]

9 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Most of those guys are high round draft picks though, so there is more to work with than 6 rounders and UDFAs. Henderson, Meachem, Cooks and Thomas are all first round picks. So by the notion that Brees makes his WRs better shouldn't all those guys be pro bowlers? The fact that Brees is still able to have high passing totals is because of the system. Who was Brees in SD? Why wasn't he putting up MVP type numbers? Now i don't take anything away from Brees because he still has to be good enough to run the system, but if anyone can't see how QB friendly that system is, they are kidding themselves.

The one than all those guys you named have in common is that they have been in the same system for 10 years. The only guy i'd say is really a cut above the rest is Peyton. Those guys are surrounded by great talent year in and year out and because they are allowed to stay in the same system each year, they have a great handle on what they want to do because they've probably seen every coverage you can think of against their offense in the past 10 years. 

Now i'm not saying this to take anything way from those guys because as you said they command their offenses so well and I'd expect nothing less being in the same offense, with the same coach for 10. Also i'm not pointing this to excuses Flacco in any way. But those guys have been in the same system for 10 years while Flacco has had what, 5 OCs in 8+ years, some of which is definitely his fault. Those guys are fortunate enough to play in QB friendly systems and have been in those systems for 10 years. Their offenses is equivalent to what the Ravens defense was from during the 2000s. You could place almost anyone in the Ravens defense and they'd look better than what they probably were, 

Do you think flacco would match Brees numbers if he where in that system?

BTW its not a QB friendly system.
Brees almost avg 40 pass attemtps per game lol

 

Edited November 1, 2016 by Tru11

[PurpleHorseman]

6 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Brady was a 7th round pick. So by that theory it's been the talent around him making him into a HoF QB?

Brady wasn't amazing at Michigan. Belichicks offense makes studs out of guys who can play. But Moss and Welker were able to succeed elsewhere. Ochocinco couldn't play there. 

And Bree's wasn't making anyone look great in SD and a vertical passing offense that didn't suit his skill set. That's a huge part. Just bc Colston was a 7th rounder doesn't mean Bree's made him. 

Cooks, Sneed, and Thomas all look great now too with varying pedigrees. Ben Watson looked great, but why isn't Fleener now looking amazing?? Luck was able "to make him better." 

Its the offensive system. Bree's fits Payton's offense perfectly and they bring in guys who fit it. They know exactly what they want. 

 

And  this has been part of our problem getting offensive skill players. We've changed OCs so often we don't have an organizational philosophy on offense and exactly what roles need filled and what traits suit those roles best. 

And Joe hasn't been in the same offense for 10+ years where he's ran every play in the book 100,000 times where he can throw to a spot on time with his eyes closed like the other guys. 

 

This isnt to excuse his play this year. Strictly to you QBs making receivers comment. Bree's and Brady benefit from the offensive scheme/philosophy and stability every bit as much as their receivers benefit from them. It's all connected... but the reason they get more with less is bc everyone from OC to QB is so in tune with what they're doing and what is needed on every play that it's easier to find guys to succeed in those roles. 

Quite frankly at times it looks like we're playing backyard football where every play it's on the receivers to beat one on one coverage with no real designed route combos and Joes having to wait until one visually gets separation before throwing. There's no timing, no rhythm, no anticipation. It's all reaction. And that, to me, is the single biggest issue. 

 

For a while the OC changes didn't kill Joe and the offense bc there was personnel stability - Mason to Boldin to Rice to Pitta and Torrey. They had connections and go to type plays they could count on and carried with them through the changes. 

Now there's no one on the offense that he's got that established rapport with. Whether bc of injury, new players, whatever - there's just no relationship (and definitely not multiple relationships at any given time) the offense can hang their hat on. No established connection. And it takes time. 

I remember 2-3 years ago when Edelman and Gronk were hurt and Brady had Dobson, Amendola for the first time, and a couple other rookies - and it was supposedly the downfall of Brady. And that was even in the same offense he had known for 10 years. But take away those relationships/connections and they were lost. 

By week 8-9 guys were healthy and connections grew and then went back to normal. 

Were transitioning for sure. Philosophically, schematically, personnel wise.... and add injuries and an obvious dwindling confidence. It's tough. 

But these guys have been there before and come out of it. It's taking longer than we hoped but it'll improve. Starting this week.

Mini offseason with Marty, improved health and I guarantee a couple steps in the right direction. 

Good post

Not coaching up young talented WRs is catching up to Joe Flacco. He is not benefiting from years of chemistry. Same can be said for the OC. For all of Harbaugh's accolades he is not an offensive guru. So it is natural that there is going to be multiple OC's to find a really good one. Then it is natural a really good OC is going to take a coaching job elsewhere.

The OL and offense is way out of whack. And so is Joe Flacco. Joe is rattled from the hits. It throws his timing and mechanics out of whack. Flacco hears footsteps from his previous drop backs and hits. The run game works sometimes. When it is on there is zero confidence to keep the run game working. And Flacco and his WRs due to the pressure, fails to get his piece of the machine working before the run game begins to get stuffed. The OL allows no timing and rythym for Flacco and his WR's. Thus all the short dumpoff tosses.

 Many fans have cited the cut block as the reason many offenses are struggling at times. And I think those people are correct. As matter of fact, fans do not realize how much it is hurting Offenses, QBs, WR's,timing,rythym and the OL.  Offensive lineman with average talent get it done by keeping the DL off balance and guessing. Which effects the DL rythym and aggression when he has to anticipate a cut block. The smarter lineman even when missing the talent element consistently makes effective blocks through technique and mixing up his block techniques. The cut block is the biggest weapon for many technicians and all blockers really. I think it was Kevin Mawae that said in an interview the cut block extended his career beyond his dominant playing days. The cut block is that effective.  From Rushing the QB or trying to fight through a block to get the RB. To slowing down an explosive defensive players pursuit or explosive jump off the line. The cut block was a necessary Weapon for many blockers success. With all the rule changes favoring the offense. Eliminating the low cut block has leveled the scale a little. Many lineman are struggling and the offense with them. 

Joe Flacco when given a clean comfortable pocket and allowed to scan through his weapons throws a beautiful pinpoint accurate football. As good as there is in the NFL. When his OL dominates he is as good as any QB in the NFL. No QB is as dependent on his OL as Joe Flacco. And that is not a bad thing. When his OL struggles he can play below average. When his OL dominates he is as good as Roethlisberger. (See 2012 playoffs)The way it looks I think is the only difference between Flacco and the top 5 QBs is their skills in going through progressions at warp speed. Flacco needs his time to go through his progressions and anticipate the longer intermediate and long throws. Especially when throwing over the middle with so much going on. When given time in a clean pocket Joe can make pinpoint accurate tight spiral throws with his eyes shut. 

Forget stats. Just use your instincts and the eye test. Do you see Joe lighting up the scoreboard with a dominant OL and run game? In an offense that effectively mixes run and throw. Even with good WRs that run effective routes as opposed to the freaks like Green. If ravens rebuild their OL, it is conceivable that next year everybody laughs about this year Joe is having. While he is one of the most prolific QBs in the NFL. And ravens offense as good as any as there is in the NFL. 

With the cut block eliminated, talented Offensive lineman will be at a premium. Blockers with average size and talent will have a harder time being successful. I think let's out think the league while fixing the OL, protecting the investment in Flacco and helping Joe and the offense light up scoreboards. I think the OL should be the focus in the draft and FA. Our rivals will begin to figure out the need for more size and skill on the OL with the cut block eliminated. Their salary will escalate while a bigger premium is laid on them in the draft. Because traditionally adequate blockers will begin to struggle with a big part of their repertoire 86'ed. I know some will say I'm making excuses for Flacco. But many offenses are struggling. Look at Jacksonville. A mostly adequate line that is now struggling. And it's QB and best WR with it. I think even his biggest critics acknowledge to themselves Joe can be as good as any QB when his OL dominates.

 

Edited November 1, 2016 by PurpleHorseman