Joe Flacco: Tough Talk

[kassaiscool]

Just now, flynismo said:

Okay, cool. Assuming Flacco continues his success and wins another SB, we'll see what matters more, Ryan's higher TD total or Flacco's rings.

Again you bring up a team achievement to defend Flacco. That's my point with everyone that doesn't look at him for what he is. Trent Dilfer has a super bowl Ring is he anywhere in the same league as Dan Marino?

[Crimson Raven]

1 minute ago, kassaiscool said:

Again you bring up a team achievement to defend Flacco. That's my point with everyone that doesn't look at him for what he is. Trent Dilfer has a super bowl Ring is he anywhere in the same league as Dan Marino?

No, but I would sure love to have that 2000 Ravens D right about now. That was legendary. I miss that golden year.

[kassaiscool]

3 minutes ago, flynismo said:

He'd probably rather have Matt Ryan too; after all, those garbage time stats he puts up is a clear indication he is better

Just like today? when he drove down the field and scored the game winning TD against the packers.

[flynismo]

2 minutes ago, kassaiscool said:

Again you bring up a team achievement to defend Flacco. That's my point with everyone that doesn't look at him for what he is. Trent Dilfer has a super bowl Ring is he anywhere in the same league as Dan Marino?

Why did I bring up what you call "team achievement" again? Oh that's right....because that is the standard that EVERYONE uses to evaluate QBs. The sooner you grasp that, the sooner you'll understand the whole point of this discussion. Please tell me why it matters for every other QB, but not when it comes to Flacco.

[kassaiscool]

1 minute ago, flynismo said:

Why did I bring up what you call "team achievement" again? Oh that's right....because that is the standard that EVERYONE uses to evaluate QBs. The sooner you grasp that, the sooner you'll understand the whole point of this discussion. Please tell me why it matters for every other QB, but not when it comes to Flacco.

Because football is a team sport. But with the Ravens its very lopsided with the Defense carrying the offense. Do you realize how many times this defense has carried flacco to the playoffs? I'm a Ravens fan and I see it every year. Yet you want to use it as an argument to defend Flacco. It makes no sense.

[flynismo]

2 minutes ago, kassaiscool said:

Just like today? when he drove down the field and scored the game winning TD against the packers.

Ryan played superb today. It's a lot easier to play so well when you have guys like Julio, Freeman, Sanu and Coleman to work with.

[kassaiscool]

2 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Ryan played superb today. It's a lot easier to play so well when you have guys like Julio, Freeman, Sanu and Coleman to work with.

Sanu, Really? He hasn't even had 800 yards in a season yet. freeman had 35 yards rushing and Coleman didn't even play. Lmao Watch Matt Ryan he doesn't have the strongest arm, but he hits a lot of people in stride. Really a great QB with a good receiver in Julio Jones. and that's pretty much it.

Edited October 31, 2016 by kassaiscool

[Crimson Raven]

1 minute ago, kassaiscool said:

Because football is a team sport. But with the Ravens its very lopsided with the Defense carrying the offense. Do you realize how many times this defense has carried flacco to the playoffs? I'm a Ravens fan and I see it every year. Yet you want to use it as an argument to defend Flacco. It makes no sense.

I don't recall that defense carrying much in 2012, 2014 wasn't so good either. And not to beleaguer a point but what rank was the Patriots defense in the early 2000s, how about Big Ben's defenses, Montana's, Steve Young that one year, Dallas in 1992, Steel Curtain, I remember Reggie White with Brett Favre.

[flynismo]

1 minute ago, kassaiscool said:

Because football is a team sport. But with the Ravens its very lopsided with the Defense carrying the offense. Do you realize how many times this defense has carried flacco to the playoffs? I'm a Ravens fan and I see it every year. Yet you want to use it as an argument to defend Flacco. It makes no sense.

The defense definitely carried him in his rookie year. True.

A good balance of offense and defense got us there in 2009, as well as some luck. That year, I think Rice had a bigger impact than Flacco.

Flacco was excellent in 2010. He was every bit as much a reason as the defense was.

2011 was another year like 2009, the offense and defense held up their ends. Then of course Flacco was denied a trip to the SB thanks to Evans and Cundiff.

And I don't even have to tell you how bad our defense was in and has been since 2012, do I?

It makes perfect sense, if you're willing to be objective about it.

[kassaiscool]

Alright guys I'm out for tonight. Talk again later.

[flynismo]

12 minutes ago, kassaiscool said:

Sanu, Really? He hasn't even had 800 yards in a season yet. freeman had 35 yards rushing and Coleman didn't even play. Lmao Watch Matt Ryan he doesn't have the strongest arm, but he hits a lot of people in stride. Really a great QB with a good receiver in Julio Jones. and that's pretty much it.

Yes, Sanu, the guy who scored the game winning TD? I mean, I do realize you seem to think that stats = talent, but Sanu is a damn good #2. Good enough to make Ryan look good on that final play of their offense. And btw, since you seem to think stats is all that matters, Sanu did put up 9 catches for 84 yards and a TD. He would have done that much more often in Cincy, but some AJ Green guy there limits opportunities for the other receivers.

Yes, I realize Coleman didn't play. But are we going to pretend that he and Freeman are not by far the best backfield in the NFL?

Edited October 31, 2016 by flynismo

[Ravensfan23]

6 hours ago, flynismo said:

Very true. It's the big mystery around here; why guys struggle so much getting separation, even established vets that we brought in. Mason was the only guy that ever seemed to get open with any consistency at all, and even he struggled a bit; mind boggling considering he's one of the best route runners of his generation.

It's the system. The Ravens system focuses on guys being about to run precise routes, but they never draft those type guys. Imo that's why only vets really have success here. But as you said Mase is really the only guy who consistently got open. But the Ravens rarely run combo routes. it's usually all iso routes. They rarely attack areas of the field or weaker players in the secondary. I think the only time I've seen the Ravens run a fake WR screen than throw down field was vs SD in 2009 a TD pass to Kelly Washington. 

Here's a article from last year about what's wrong with the Packers offense, It spoke about how with Nelson hurt(talent) they struggled to create separation and because of it the team needs to run more combo routes. The Ravens definitely need to do this. 

[JoeyFlex5]

44 minutes ago, kassaiscool said:

Again different era, you even bring up namath from the 60's to prove your point. The problem with that Joe isn't gonna get compared to Namath he is gonna to be compared with current players like Matt Ryan who has 50 more TD's than him even though they entered the draft the same year. You bring players out of the past who's stats won't look good in today's era to prove your point. Rookie QB's now have better stats than Hall of Famers in the past. Should all of them be HOF's? No, its just the NFL is different than it was in the past. The only thing is Joe has stats comparable to players in the past in this new NFL.

Ask falcons fans if they would trade those 50 tds for a super bowl. 

[flynismo]

1 minute ago, Ravensfan23 said:

It's the system. The Ravens system focuses on guys being about to run precise routes, but they never draft those type guys. Imo that's why only vets really have success here. But as you said Mase is really the only guy who consistently got open. But the Ravens rarely run combo routes. it's usually all iso routes. They rarely attack areas of the field or weaker players in the secondary. I think the only time I've seen the Ravens run a fake WR screen than throw down field was vs SD in 2009 a TD pass to Kelly Washington. 

Here's a article from last year about what's wrong with the Packers offense, It spoke about how with Nelson hurt(talent) they struggled to create separation and because of it the team needs to run more combo routes. The Ravens definitely need to do this. 

I have to agree that the system is a very large part of it. One thing that has remained constant regardless of the OC is that we bring no deception, no creativity, hell we don't even do very basic things like having receivers set up picks or anything like that. We've always known that we never seem to use guys according to their strengths (Mason and Boldin going deep quite often, using Clayton on the perimeter and as a possession guy when he was clearly a slot receiver, etc etc etc etc).

And then, when we draft a crafty route runner like Campanaro, AND use him properly, he shows potential in the limited time he saw. Yeah, I can roll with this as the answer for our issues with separation that occur year after year regardless of who is on the field.

[PurpleCity5]

6 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

He didn't "pass" on wentz. He got a boatload of picks for it. Cleveland was much more than just a qb away from competing, they need a full overhaul. It may hurt for them seeing wentz playing well but it was likely the right move. There's a ton of talent coming out over the next 2 years and they have a lot of decent picks

He did get a bunch of picks but I don't think they're worth it to be honest with you. Cleveland is more than a QB away from ever hoping to compete but QB is where it starts. Cleveland has been through so many QBs that you a guy like Wentz is totally worth more than those draft picks. It has to break that team seeing him play like this knowing that QB has been their biggest problem. QB has changed franchises in the NFL, Cleveland surely wouldn't amount to anything this year, but they would dramatically improve if they had a guy like Wentz. 

Edited October 31, 2016 by PurpleCity5

[PurpleCity5]

1 hour ago, jazz1988 said:

I don't know because I seen a guy like Tom Brady complete like 47% of his passes when throwing to young unreliable receivers in  some  games especially in 2013 against The Jets.I haven't really watch many games of Brees but honestly when you talk about Brady and Manning how often were they working with unreliable receivers and bad pass protection from their offensive line . I can't even remember the last time Tom Brady has been successful and won games with out having reliable receivers to throw to or should I say good receivers. . The same can be said about Peyton Manning  and probably the same with Drew Brees.

 

One thing for sure that those guys have  over Joe Flacco is the many years they spent in one offensive system and of course they are more precise with their passes and future hall of famers but I thinks it's so beneficial for them to be in  a set offensive system for so many years. If you think about it with everything Joe Flacco has had to deal with from bad o-line protection and receivers dropping passes over the years, he has shown the ability to work through that and help win games in the past.  Of course his best plays came when the offensive line was pass protecting quite well and his receivers were dependable but you can probably say that for most quarterbacks in the league.

 

Brees has had some terrible OLs and some average WRs to work with and still makes them look great. In 2013, Brady had a very poor group of WRs after Gronk went out along with an OL that was pretty average and with the season he had, I would say he looked pretty impressive. Guys like Kembrell Thompkins and Aaron Dobson are pretty much irrelevant and those guys put up nearly 1000 combined, they're FAs now. Peyton had some poor teams over his time Indianapolis as well. 

Yes, every QB does need some help, but some guys are just so great that you can indeed give them a bit less than others but still succeed. I don't know if Joe is that kind of guy you can do that with. 

[Ravensfan23]

4 minutes ago, flynismo said:

I have to agree that the system is a very large part of it. One thing that has remained constant regardless of the OC is that we bring no deception, no creativity, hell we don't even do very basic things like having receivers set up picks or anything like that. We've always known that we never seem to use guys according to their strengths (Mason and Boldin going deep quite often, using Clayton on the perimeter and as a possession guy when he was clearly a slot receiver, etc etc etc etc).

And then, when we draft a crafty route runner like Campanaro, AND use him properly, he shows potential in the limited time he saw. Yeah, I can roll with this as the answer for our issues with separation that occur year after year regardless of who is on the field.

Yea it's like the Ravens are that old guy who struggles to adapt to the changing times. He still walks around with his clothes on backwards hoping the Chris Xross era comes back. Smash mouth iso football isn't the NFL anymore. I'm not saying don't run the ball or be physical but you have to be creative and the Ravens just aren't. You draft these big TEs and always seem to have atleast one 6'4 WR on the roster but never throw fades in the redzone. We always seem to draft the shifty punt return type WR like Reed, Camp, Figurs but never use those guys in the screen game. 

As great as this FO is, it's like there is a disconnect between the scouts and the coaches. 

[Maryland]

15 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

It's looking like Ben WILL NOT play according to Schefter and others.

I'll believe it when it's gameday and he's not dressed to play lol.

As we saw last year, being dressed and not starting doesn't mean he won't play and then put up 379 and 3 TDs (as he did vs the Browns once Landry Jones "started" for a drive and then sat down). 

14 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Joe Flacco has the most passing attempts in the league and least TD passes. He needs to step up and lit a fire under his play. Joe is honestly playing considerably worse this year than last. Actually, through seven weeks Joe has been playing worse this year, than his 2013 season. How does that figure considering the awful group of receivers and an atrocious offensive line? 

I know I'm not really responding to the message of your quote, but this stat always kind of irked me. I look at offensive TDs scored as a team stat. If the QB is getting the team down to the 1-yard line and then the RB plunges in for a TD, it seems to me the QB should get as much credit as the RB and the rest of the offense--the TD is the result of the entire drive, something all of the offensive players likely played a part in. Terrance West scored 2 TDs at the Giants on the goal line, but it could possibly have been two passing TDs had they attempted a pass there instead. It's a gimmicky stat.

[RaineV1]

7 hours ago, Edgar said:

I disagree. Take the QB. Build around him.

The Browns have been trying to do that for years. Just throwing a QB onto a badly run team doesn't make it better.

[Maryland]

In an article I read on RSR, the author talked about drafting a developmental backup QB to push Flacco to work harder, though I really don't see how this would possibly work unless you happen to hit on a Dak Prescott or Russell Wilson, or spend a high pick on someone to develop like what GB did with Aaron Rodgers, all of which seem unlikely. A developmental backup isn't going to motivate/threaten Flacco anymore than Mallett, Schaub, Tyrod, Bulger, etc.

However, having said all of that, I think that our FO should be drafting and developing a backup QB, since developing a backup QB gives you a chance of developing decent trade bait (like any Eagles QB in recent history), or at the very least a chance of developing a cheap, competent backup QB on a rookie deal (like Mike Glennon). Plus, you never know, you could hit on a gem who ends up being better than Flacco, kind of like what SD found with Brees while they had Rivers, or what the Redskins found with Cousins despite drafting Griffin III.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Maryland

[RaRaRavens]

The sad thing is, due to cap space and dead money reasons, we can't fire him for at least 3 years. So Flacco can start throwing intentional INTs and we still could not fire him. And no one is going to trade with us for him considering his cap hit and playing level. So we are literally stuck with Flacco until 2020. 

[RaRaRavens]

4 minutes ago, Maryland said:

In an article I read on RSR, the author talked about drafting a developmental backup QB to push Flacco to work harder, though I really don't see how this would possibly work unless you happen to hit on a Dak Prescott or Russell Wilson, or spend a high pick on someone to develop like what GB did with Aaron Rodgers, all of which seem unlikely. A developmental backup isn't going to motivate/threaten Flacco anymore than Mallett, Schaub, Tyrod, Bulger, etc.

However, having said all of that, I think that our FO should be drafting and developing a backup QB, since developing a backup QB gives you a chance of developing decent trade bait (like any Eagles QB in recent history), or at the very least a chance of developing a cheap, competent backup QB on a rookie deal (like Mike Glennon). Plus, you never know, you could hit on a gem who ends up being better than Flacco, kind of like what SD found with Brees while they had Rivers, or what the Redskins found with Cousins despite drafting Griffin III.

Or what NE found in Brady? God, I hate Brady so much, but when I sit down on Sundays and see how Flacco, one again, is playing like a dumbwit, I would give anything to have a QB with Brady-like skills.

[Tank 92]

16 hours ago, flynismo said:

I hope you guys are watching this Saints game and seeing what an offense looks like where WRs are wide open every other play. And when I say wide open, I'm talking about no defender within 4 - 5 yards, if at all.

Oh, but the Ravens WRs are wide open all the time. One Twenty just can't find them.   

[flynismo]

5 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

Oh, but the Ravens WRs are wide open all the time. One Twenty just can't find them.   

Ha, I miss that nickname lol

[Rav'n Maniac]

It was really quieting down in here for a while. Wonder what changed? lol

[Sami84]

6 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Ask falcons fans if they would trade those 50 tds for a super bowl. 

we should have kept trent dilfer then..

[Sami84]

7 hours ago, flynismo said:

Ryan played superb today. It's a lot easier to play so well when you have guys like Julio, Freeman, Sanu and Coleman to work with.

just julio..

 

the rest are average. Sanu is average..if he came here you'd see that for yourself.

[flynismo]

5 minutes ago, Rav'n Maniac said:

It was really quieting down in here for a while. Wonder what changed? lol

Certain posters are probably just now returning from bans. lol

[jdynamite]

On 10/24/2016 at 8:49 PM, redrum52 said:

This isn't in defense of him, but what about putting pressures in the stats as well? What about qb hits?

 

All of that would make for a more complete picture I agree.   But I mean where do we find those stats in a reliable form for free ( legit question ). 

I'd also like to see stats of throwaways under pressure  or throwaways period because I view that as a smart QB play. 

Or like how ESPN/NFLN/CBS will  occasionally put up stats on average time between snap and pass attempt. Because QBs have to have that internal clock ticking knowing the defense is coming. 

[Sami84]

21 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Certain posters are probably just now returning from bans. lol

Flynsimo, you do realize that when a QB is being paid like hes a top 3 QB in this league and yet the eye test says he's in the bottom half of the league and the stats say he's near the ROCK bottom and taking into account he has shown that he's more flawed than any top tier QB in this league and is best described as inconsistent going on BAD that it isnt blasphemous for people to state that he's not that good of a QB and while you can talk about the browns as a way of saying '' be thankfull'' there are around 17 other franchises who have better QBS and 4 others who are just as good and younger. It's the cautious/scared approach which makes me sick. Maybe the issue isnt flacco, maybe its ALWAYS been the FO and their inability to spot talent. They messed up on boller and now are so scared to even attempt another QB. The irony is that flacco wasnt event slated to be the 1st choice in 2008. Harbs said '' troy is our QB''. 

This FO and Harbs are so scared and didnt develop tyrod and give him a real chance. We could have let go of flacco, had a better QB ( for this day and age) whos younger and we'd have been able to have bolstered our team in FA.

 

Joe flacco is not an asset to this team based on his contract. He's playing like a backup QB and he is a complete liability. He has a pathetic 5-6 touchdown to interceptions despite throwing the ball more than any QB in the league. even if you disregarded some of the drops, he's in the top 6 worst accuracy rating in the league with pass incompletions that are mind boggling. THe thing is that this isnt new...he's had bad seasons..hes had only 2 good regular seasons. Thats it..

He was terrible last year before injuries hit and he tears his ACL/MCL and we offer him an extension? This FO is either deluded on his abilities or don't believe they have the capacity to find a QB whos better than flacco. If thats the case then I'd say the FO should move on and leave their posts.