Joe Flacco: Tough Talk

[flynismo]

23 minutes ago, kassaiscool said:

So anyone who analyzes Flacco is anti-Flacco? If I'm anti-Flacco you musrid of t be A Flacco defense team member. I'm basically saying if you look at his body of work I can find you over a dozen players who are better than him. who he gets paid more than.

I know what you're saying. And you're dead wrong when you look at his body of work. We just had this discussion in another thread. The only people who have accomplished more during their careers are HOF QBs who have been playing longer than Flacco. That isn't opinion, it is fact.

So that is why all those "get rid of Flacco" or "he's average" people are not taken seriously. It's one thing to criticize, we all do that, and should do that. But those people take it to a surreal level of....not-smartness.

I think people need to remember we're all supplorting the same team. Nobody, not Flacco, not Harbaugh nobody is above the team. At the same time, those two guys were the primary reasons we have been so good for so long. They have more than earned the benefit of doubt.

Edited October 30, 2016 by flynismo

[flynismo]

29 minutes ago, Militant X 1 said:

Agreed!  If we players then that clearly leaves the quality of players.  

Maybe it is not to all be laid on them but of course they are a major part of it.  The players themselves even say that; "It doesn't matter what play has been called, WE have to go out there and execute it!"  It's not the system or the coaches that can't get 4th &1..it's the players!  It's not the system or the coaches throwing bad passes or dropping good passes..it's the players!  So forth and so on.  Enjoying our dialogue about this. 

It's not that I disagree, but look at the big name guys we have brought in, only to see them struggle to separate. No, let me try it this way:

Did you see Brandin Cooks today? Unbelievable how open he was all game long. I don't know how Brees didn't hit him for 200+ yards. I think Cooks is on Wallace's level as a player, with more reliable hands...he certainly isn't significantly better than Wallace or SSS. But he had no trouble getting open today, against SEA.

Why is that? Earnest question...that has to be the system and game planning, right?

[Militant X 1]

8 minutes ago, flynismo said:

It's not that I disagree, but look at the big name guys we have brought in, only to see them struggle to separate. No, let me try it this way:

Did you see Brandin Cooks today? Unbelievable how open he was all game long. I don't know how Brees didn't hit him for 200+ yards. I think Cooks is on Wallace's level as a player, with more reliable hands...he certainly isn't significantly better than Wallace or SSS. But he had no trouble getting open today, against SEA.

Why is that? Earnest question...that has to be the system and game planning, right?

No I didn't see Brandin Cooks today but I saw highlights of Gronk getting wide open...again!  How is it that dude always seems to be so wide open and he's not really that fast?   Maybe a combination of both the system and game planning as you have mentioned.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Militant X 1

[Deflated Football]

2 hours ago, flynismo said:

I know what you're saying. And you're dead wrong when you look at his body of work. We just had this discussion in another thread. The only people who have accomplished more during their careers are HOF QBs who have been playing longer than Flacco. That isn't opinion, it is fact.

So that is why all those "get rid of Flacco" or "he's average" people are not taken seriously. It's one thing to criticize, we all do that, and should do that. But those people take it to a surreal level of....not-smartness.

I think people need to remember we're all supplorting the same team. Nobody, not Flacco, not Harbaugh nobody is above the team. At the same time, those two guys were the primary reasons we have been so good for so long. They have more than earned the benefit of doubt.

You're living in the past bro. The NFL is a 'what-have-you-done-for-me-lately' league and Flacco has been awful these last couple of seasons. We keep gloating about his achievements four seasons ago, we'll be the new Cowboys and Steelers fans. 

[Edgar]

21 minutes ago, flynismo said:

It's not that I disagree, but look at the big name guys we have brought in, only to see them struggle to separate. No, let me try it this way:

Did you see Brandin Cooks today? Unbelievable how open he was all game long. I don't know how Brees didn't hit him for 200+ yards. I think Cooks is on Wallace's level as a player, with more reliable hands...he certainly isn't significantly better than Wallace or SSS. But he had no trouble getting open today, against SEA.

Why is that? Earnest question...that has to be the system and game planning, right?

It's alarming how unfocused, scattered and seemingly spaghetti flung against the wall to see what sticks this offense appears when compared to most NFL teams.

There is absolutely no reason the opposition would game plan to stop the run because they all know we have no real interest in running the ball other than to keep a defense, "honest" so that we can drop back and throw the ball forty odd times.

There are no pick or rub routes, (illegal or otherwise). There is very little scheming to get receivers open.

On the rare occasion we get in the red zone it is wildly apparent how rare it is. 

I don't know how to assess blame but it seems partially systemic. I don't mean this to exempt Joe Flacco because he has played poorly more than he's played well for the past three plus years. I'm just  not sure why it appears to me that our receivers routes are run for them.

 

[Crimson Raven]

1 hour ago, Deflated Football said:

You're living in the past bro. The NFL is a 'what-have-you-done-for-me-lately' league and Flacco has been awful these last couple of seasons. We keep gloating about his achievements four seasons ago, we'll be the new Cowboys and Steelers fans. 

With a bad or just injury ridden O line, below average receivers, a good (not yet great) running back, a miserable pass rush, and not so good secondary, this team is already in the past called 2013. There are more pressing matters than the QB. It's not a simple fix of finding a better QB, which if we had to find one will have to be a hall of fame candidate, and I don't see anyone of those on the self at Walmart. Styx, if you had to find one, you would probably see similar results. A team is only as good as its players not player. Hate to say this, but New England hardly missed a beat when Brady was gone. Can we honestly say that about this team? We don't need to, because we saw it last year. Flacco gone, and the team went to the fire and brimstone it was headed for, and it won't change until at least the more serious problems are fixed. Just because other teams are getting more done with their QBs doesn't mean they're playing with the same team as us. After the Jets game, it's not unreasonable to say we are the worst.

[Edgar]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

He didn't "pass" on wentz. He got a boatload of picks for it. Cleveland was much more than just a qb away from competing, they need a full overhaul. It may hurt for them seeing wentz playing well but it was likely the right move. There's a ton of talent coming out over the next 2 years and they have a lot of decent picks

I disagree. Take the QB. Build around him.

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, Edgar said:

I disagree. Take the QB. Build around him.

thats how you destroy a young QB. you dont place a d2 rookie qb on a team with absolutely NOTHING to work with.

[Sami84]

2 hours ago, Crimson Raven said:

With a bad or just injury ridden O line, below average receivers, a good (not yet great) running back, a miserable pass rush, and not so good secondary, this team is already in the past called 2013. There are more pressing matters than the QB. It's not a simple fix of finding a better QB, which if we had to find one will have to be a hall of fame candidate, and I don't see anyone of those on the self at Walmart. Styx, if you had to find one, you would probably see similar results. A team is only as good as its players not player. Hate to say this, but New England hardly missed a beat when Brady was gone. Can we honestly say that about this team? We don't need to, because we saw it last year. Flacco gone, and the team went to the fire and brimstone it was headed for, and it won't change until at least the more serious problems are fixed. Just because other teams are getting more done with their QBs doesn't mean they're playing with the same team as us. After the Jets game, it's not unreasonable to say we are the worst.

 

 

not true about brady..see the game they lost this year..no way that happens without brady. Flacco is just an average QB..the numbers are not a fluke..his 2012 post season run is. He had 4 games to try and win and he failed..he's cluless at picking up blitzes...misses easy throws..below average/bad QBR in every season aside from 2010 and 2014 where it was ''good'' not great or elite..

He's stealing money and like everyone on the RSF forum are saying..the dumbest thing this organization did was extend him. 

5-6 

he's laughing all the way to the bank. I don't buy his words. Its like everything has to be set up on a platter for him in order to be '' elite''. I think of QBs like Jake Delhomme who had a few good seasons and lots of MEH ones. Thats flacco..

 

whats good about him?

He's tall

He has a big arm

He can make great throws ..sometimes

Can get on a hot streak.

 

Whats bad about him?

Terrible Blitz reader

Poor pocket awareness

Inconsistent 

Generally an inaccurate and overrated deep ball

gets rattled..and when he is rattled he might be the worst QB in the league.

Statue in the pocket

Poor Fade throws ( watch derek carr if you want to see real touch)

Audibles in general

Doesn't have good timing with young players

Needs accomplished players like boldin, SSSR and mason to be effective.

Used to be quite mobile but now cannot extent plays with feet unless it's no risk whatsoever.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Sami84

[Sami84]

 

in flaccos BEST season ever QBR PFF etc ( 2010) he was the number 9 QB in the league. In 2014 he was 10th.

Outside of those two years...he's been between 15-29

 

and yet hes been extended..

 

what a dumb FO. They must have 0 confidence in themselves to be emotionally tied to this guy.

[kassaiscool]

3 hours ago, flynismo said:

I know what you're saying. And you're dead wrong when you look at his body of work. We just had this discussion in another thread. The only people who have accomplished more during their careers are HOF QBs who have been playing longer than Flacco. That isn't opinion, it is fact.

So that is why all those "get rid of Flacco" or "he's average" people are not taken seriously. It's one thing to criticize, we all do that, and should do that. But those people take it to a surreal level of....not-smartness.

I think people need to remember we're all supplorting the same team. Nobody, not Flacco, not Harbaugh nobody is above the team. At the same time, those two guys were the primary reasons we have been so good for so long. They have more than earned the benefit of doubt.

Statistically speaking his regular season stats are pretty average compared to what hes getting paid. A lot of Joe Flacco accomplishment are team accomplishments, not individual accomplishments. How can Joe Flacco be even thought of being a hall of famer, when he hasn't even been to one pro bowl? it doesn't add up. This is where i can see right through your argument, I am a fan of the Ravens and Joe Flacco but you if you look at the issues with the Ravens especially this year its Flacco and this offense. I am not one of this people shouting for Harbaugh to get fired, I'm talking directly about Flacco and his play and how he has regressed.

[kassaiscool]

13 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

 

in flaccos BEST season ever QBR PFF etc ( 2010) he was the number 9 QB in the league. In 2014 he was 10th.

Outside of those two years...he's been between 15-29

 

and yet hes been extended..

 

what a dumb FO. They must have 0 confidence in themselves to be emotionally tied to this guy.

 

I would take that 2014 year away from because who doesn't do good in a Kubiak run offense? Rookies run that offense to perfection lol

[Sami84]

9 minutes ago, kassaiscool said:

 

I would take that 2014 year away from because who doesn't do good in a Kubiak run offense? Rookies run that offense to perfection lol

 

exactly..kubiak MAKES anyone look decent..

 

all flacco has done is get coaches fired. Its not the coaches..its not even the weapons..its HIM!! he hasnt built a rapport with anyone we have drafted aside from pitta.You can tell this is more of a JOB than a passion and more about MONEY than success on the field. If we could sign 3 all pros for one side of the ball if flacco were to take a paycut HE WOULDNT budge. 

 

I was one of those people who said DONT extend him..take the hit. Well, we would have had  a LOT of leverage this coming year and cap space too..but of course not..

[Sami84]

Flaccos  SB doesnt represent his talent level. He just got lucky..

If we had philip rivers all these years we'd have had more than one AND we would have won the division a hell of a lot more. Flacco is just rubbish. 

[allblackraven]

Just now, Sami84 said:

Flaccos  SB doesnt represent his talent level. He just got lucky..

If we had philip rivers all these years we'd have had more than one AND we would have won the division a hell of a lot more. Flacco is just rubbish. 

So, when nothing in our offense works it's all because Flacco sucks. On the other hand, when he has a good play caller and O line is doing the job, he got lucky and anybody could do it. I guess that's why only 2 QBs in history threw 11 TDs and 0 INTs in post season.

[Sami84]

Just now, allblackraven said:

So, when nothing in our offense works it's all because Flacco sucks. On the other hand, when he has a good play caller and O line is doing the job, he got lucky and anybody could do it. I guess that's why only 2 QBs in history threw 11 TDs and 0 INTs in post season.

 

oh my god are people going to milk that post season forever????????

 

 

[Ravensfan23]

7 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I think what he means is that Joe isn't a guy like a Manning, Brees, or Brady who can work around obvious flaws around the offense. Nothing wrong with that because 90% of QBs can't. The Ravens simply expected him to be and put too much on him.

Those guys can't either honestly. The names around them might not be household but believe me they are talented enough in whatever system is being run. Just look at how Flynn was able to put up crazy numbers in that Packers offense. No knock to ARod because i'm a huge fan of his, but name one player he's made great in that offense? The truth is the Packers have surrounded him with a bunch of offensive weapons who were drafted in the 2nd round(Lacey, nelson, Cobb, Adams) and when he took over in 2008 he inherited a veteran 1,000 WR in Driver and a 2nd rounder in Jennings who was coming off a 900+ yard 12TD season. Fact is Rodger was allow to develop in a great system and surround by a wealth of offensive talent. 

Who has Brees honestly made better? He too is a QB who needs good talent around him to succeed. Guys like Devery Henderson and Robert Meachum were high draft picks who Brees didn't amount to much with Brees at QB. Guys like Cooks, Thomas, Graham and Fleener were high picks and it's hard to give him credit for making the Chargers offense better when they drafted a 1st round QB 2 years before his rookie contract was up. Yes Colston has done well, but the fact is that Brees went from a system that didn't really fit him and teamed with Sean Payton who has a crazy good system. 

You can look at any of these QBs and say they are able to work around obvious flaws, but the truth is their playcallers and system is really what overcomes the flaws. All the guys you named have been in the same system most of their careers and they have teams that focus on supplying them with high drafted talent. As you said with the Ravens they focus on building the teams as a whole opposed to just loading up on one side of the ball. 

[flynismo]

1 hour ago, kassaiscool said:

Statistically speaking his regular season stats are pretty average compared to what hes getting paid. A lot of Joe Flacco accomplishment are team accomplishments, not individual accomplishments. How can Joe Flacco be even thought of being a hall of famer, when he hasn't even been to one pro bowl? it doesn't add up. This is where i can see right through your argument, I am a fan of the Ravens and Joe Flacco but you if you look at the issues with the Ravens especially this year its Flacco and this offense. I am not one of this people shouting for Harbaugh to get fired, I'm talking directly about Flacco and his play and how he has regressed.

Who cares about stats? Fantasy geeks, fans who vote on the pro bowl, and....nobody else. 

Team accomplishments? Tell me...why is Montana considered by most the GOAT? Certainly not because of stats. But because of his postseason success and SB wins. Same with Brady. So this is where I see right through YOUR argument, because you want to deny some of Flacco's achievements that everyone applies to every single other QB to ever play the game....but for some reason with you anti-Flacco guys, it doesn't count for him? Okay.

[flynismo]

41 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

oh my god are people going to milk that post season forever????????

If you can milk one bad game or one bad season forever, well...

[jazz1988]

9 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I think what he means is that Joe isn't a guy like a Manning, Brees, or Brady who can work around obvious flaws around the offense. Nothing wrong with that because 90% of QBs can't. The Ravens simply expected him to be and put too much on him.

I don't know because I seen a guy like Tom Brady complete like 47% of his passes when throwing to young unreliable receivers in  some  games especially in 2013 against The Jets.I haven't really watch many games of Brees but honestly when you talk about Brady and Manning how often were they working with unreliable receivers and bad pass protection from their offensive line . I can't even remember the last time Tom Brady has been successful and won games with out having reliable receivers to throw to or should I say good receivers. . The same can be said about Peyton Manning  and probably the same with Drew Brees.

 

One thing for sure that those guys have  over Joe Flacco is the many years they spent in one offensive system and of course they are more precise with their passes and future hall of famers but I thinks it's so beneficial for them to be in  a set offensive system for so many years. If you think about it with everything Joe Flacco has had to deal with from bad o-line protection and receivers dropping passes over the years, he has shown the ability to work through that and help win games in the past.  Of course his best plays came when the offensive line was pass protecting quite well and his receivers were dependable but you can probably say that for most quarterbacks in the league.

 

Edited October 31, 2016 by jazz1988

[Crimson Raven]

2 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Who cares about stats? Fantasy geeks, fans who vote on the pro bowl, and....nobody else. 

Team accomplishments? Tell me...why is Montana considered by most the GOAT? Certainly not because of stats. But because of his postseason success and SB wins. Same with Brady. So this is where I see right through YOUR argument, because you want to deny some of Flacco's achievements that everyone applies to every single other QB to ever play the game....but for some reason with you anti-Flacco guys, it doesn't count for him? Okay.

Not to mention Montana had Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, Taylor, the at the time new West Coast, Ronnie Lott. Geez, if people were judging Montana, Manning, and others the same way as Flacco, these QBs would be the most scrutinized in history. And here's something that'll blow your mind, Steve Young had better stats. Where's his parade? Don't get me started with Aikman.

[kassaiscool]

1 minute ago, flynismo said:

Who cares about stats? Fantasy geeks, fans who vote on the pro bowl, and....nobody else. 

Team accomplishments? Tell me...why is Montana considered by most the GOAT? Certainly not because of stats. But because of his postseason success and SB wins. Same with Brady. So this is where I see right through YOUR argument, because you want to deny some of Flacco's achievements that everyone applies to every single other QB to ever play the game....but for some reason with you anti-Flacco guys, it doesn't count for him? Okay.

"Who cares about stats?" Stats and game tape are usually a direct indication of what you will be paid in this league. It is used as bargaining chips in player contracts. You bring up Joe Montana he is the only QB who has 5 super bowls. He is an exception, We will be lucky if Joe can get us another one. Its also a different era than today's game. Montana stats would probably much better in today's passing league. Brady on the other hand goes back and forth with Manning breaking passing TD records so that argument is invalid.

[flynismo]

1 minute ago, Crimson Raven said:

Not to mention Montana had Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, Taylor, the at the time new West Coast, Ronnie Lott. Geez, if people were judging Montana, Manning, and others the same way as Flacco, these QBs would be the most scrutinized in history. And here's something that'll blow your mind, Steve Young had better stats. Where's his parade? Don't get me started with Aikman.

Oh yeah, I mentioned how if Aikman, Griese and Namath can get in the HOF, then Flacco has a good shot at it too. You should have seen how ruffled the anti-Flacco trolls feathers got after that one haha...

[Crimson Raven]

Just now, flynismo said:

Oh yeah, I mentioned how if Aikman, Griese and Namath can get in the HOF, then Flacco has a good shot at it too. You should have seen how ruffled the anti-Flacco trolls feathers got after that one haha...

Seriously. Stats can only tell so much. At least those guys have champions around them like Irvin, Warfield, Maynard, Shula, and Emmitt. Best Flacco got was a couple of nearly retired men, Ray Rice, an aging defense whose last big hoorah was in 2011, and did pretty much the impossible.

[flynismo]

1 minute ago, kassaiscool said:

"Who cares about stats?" Stats and game tape are usually a direct indication of what you will be paid in this league. It is used as bargaining chips in player contracts. You bring up Joe Montana he is the only QB who has 5 super bowls. He is an exception, We will be lucky if Joe can get us another one. Its also a different era than today's game. Montana stats would probably much better in today's passing league. Brady on the other hand goes back and forth with Manning breaking passing TD records so that argument is invalid.

All that is a fancy way of saying "you're right Fly, Montana is considered GOAT because of his postseason success."

How about this one? Anyone who ever saw Marino play knows he is far more talented than Brady. Fastest release the league ever saw, an arm on par with Favre, as accurate as Montana, a football IQ up there with Manning. Not to mention, since you love stats so much, he held nearly every passing record in the book -- and he did it without Rice and Brown. Why do very few people consider him GOAT?

[kassaiscool]

1 minute ago, flynismo said:

Oh yeah, I mentioned how if Aikman, Griese and Namath can get in the HOF, then Flacco has a good shot at it too. You should have seen how ruffled the anti-Flacco trolls feathers got after that one haha...

Again different era, you even bring up namath from the 60's to prove your point. The problem with that Joe isn't gonna get compared to Namath he is gonna to be compared with current players like Matt Ryan who has 50 more TD's than him even though they entered the draft the same year. You bring players out of the past who's stats won't look good in today's era to prove your point. Rookie QB's now have better stats than Hall of Famers in the past. Should all of them be HOF's? No, its just the NFL is different than it was in the past. The only thing is Joe has stats comparable to players in the past in this new NFL.

[allblackraven]

12 minutes ago, kassaiscool said:

"Who cares about stats?" Stats and game tape are usually a direct indication of what you will be paid in this league. It is used as bargaining chips in player contracts. You bring up Joe Montana he is the only QB who has 5 super bowls. He is an exception, We will be lucky if Joe can get us another one. Its also a different era than today's game. Montana stats would probably much better in today's passing league. Brady on the other hand goes back and forth with Manning breaking passing TD records so that argument is invalid.

Andy Dalton can rack up pretty good stats. Would you rather have him?

Note - you can't have AJ Green, too.

Edited October 31, 2016 by allblackraven

[flynismo]

1 minute ago, kassaiscool said:

Again different era, you even bring up namath from the 60's to prove your point. The problem with that Joe isn't gonna get compared to Namath he is gonna to be compared with current players like Matt Ryan who has 50 more TD's than him even though they entered the draft the same year. You bring players out of the past who's stats won't look good in today's era to prove your point. Rookie QB's now have better stats than Hall of Famers in the past. Should all of them be HOF's? No, its just the NFL is different than it was in the past. The only thing is Joe has stats comparable to players in the past in this new NFL.

Okay, cool. Assuming Flacco continues his success and wins another SB, we'll see what matters more, Ryan's higher TD total or Flacco's rings.

[Crimson Raven]

Just now, flynismo said:

Okay, cool. Assuming Flacco continues his success and wins another SB, we'll see what matters more, Ryan's higher TD total or Flacco's rings.

And the bling, is looking pretty nice.

[flynismo]

2 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

Andy Dalton can rack up pretty good stats. Would you rather have him?

Note - you can't have AJ Green, too.

He'd probably rather have Matt Ryan too; after all, those garbage time stats he puts up is a clear indication he is better