Time to Play the Young Guys??

[sflegend89]

2 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

This team had how many starters missing the last 2 games? They are heading into a bye hoping to get those starters back, especially on the oline. They are entering into a game vs Steelers that no matter what the Bengals do next week will have 1st place of the North on the line. The Ravens have a current 3 game winning streak vs the Steeler and have won 4 of the last 5. So even though things seem bad right now, this team shouldn't be thinking about quitting. 

I appreciate the positivity but at a certain point we have to be real about who we are. Record wise it's still early and the rest of the division has struggled. But looking at the product on the field I just don't think there is any hope of salvaging this season, that's not pessimism, that's just brutal objective honesty.

When I watch other teams it doesn't even look like we're playing the same game, particularly on offense, it's beyond pedestrian and predictable. I subscribe to the definition of insanity here, doing the same thing week in week out and expecting different results.

We already fired an OC, there's only so much change and adjusting that can occur at this point in a season. Getting healthy will help our cause but expecting new results after weeks of incompetence is a fruitless endeavor. I believe in this organization, it's a dark time at the moment and we have to stick it out for now.

Edited October 24, 2016 by sflegend89

[kjbmore]

Mods can you please change the title of the thread to - Time to play our kids / draft picks

 

[Maryland]

We're 1 game out of first in our division with 5 divisional games left on the schedule. With how weak our division is this year, we are still very much in this thing. This bye week couldn't come at a better time; with Stanley, Yanda, and SS89 hopefully healthy for week 9, our OL and offense as a whole should be much improved. Our defense probably won't improve a whole lot post-Bye, since we still have no pass rush, but there are some injuries in the secondary, along with Mosley, obviously. Not counting on Suggs or Dumervil to save this defense, tbh. Nevertheless, with Roethlisberger out 4-6 weeks, we're still very much in the race for the AFCN.

And players and coaches don't tank, at least not in the NFL. A FO can assemble a non-competitive roster that will lose despite the coaches and players' efforts, but the coaches and players themselves do not lose on purpose. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by Maryland

[terps85]

3 minutes ago, Maryland said:

We're 1 game out of first in our division with 5 divisional games left on the schedule. With how weak our division is this year, we are still very much in this thing. This bye week couldn't come at a better time; with Stanley, Yanda, and SS89 hopefully healthy for week 9, our OL and offense as a whole should be much improved. Our defense probably won't improve a whole lot post-Bye, since we still have no pass rush, but there are some injuries in the secondary, along with Mosley, obviously. Not counting on Suggs or Dumervil to save this defense, tbh. Nevertheless, with Roethlisberger out 4-6 weeks, we're still very much in the race for the AFCN.

And players and coaches don't tank, at least not in the NFL. A FO can assemble a non-competitive roster that will lose despite the coaches and players' efforts, but the coaches and players themselves do not lose on purpose. 

For what it's worth, Roethlisberger said he would have played today if it was the playoffs according to Nantz/Simms. Wouldn't be surprised if he plays in 2 weeks.  

[Maryland]

Just now, terps85 said:

For what it's worth, Roethlisberger said he would have played today if it was the playoffs according to Nantz/Simms. Wouldn't be surprised if he plays in 2 weeks.  

I hope he does decide to start so we can make him regret his decision. 

[Tru11]

offense has been tanking since the start of the season.

lets hope the defense does not follow suit.

glad special teams decided it was not worth tanking.

[K-Dog]

Ozzie is cheap.

Now THAT  is a new one.

[Moderator 3]

6 hours ago, kjbmore said:

Mods can you please change the title of the thread to - Time to play our kids / draft picks

 

At OP's request, the title has been modified.

[MTRavensFan]

6 hours ago, kjbmore said:

Mods can you please change the title of the thread to - Time to play our kids / draft picks

 

We're doing that, and not on purpose - it's because of injuries. Playing our kids is what is getting Joe killed out there, and it's not like we have a choice. 

[Cillmatic]

1 hour ago, K-Dog said:

Ozzie is cheap.

Now THAT  is a new one.

Cheap? Lol

[GrimCoconut]

7 hours ago, terps85 said:

They're losing games because the roster is just not that talented because of years of poor drafting. I'm not sure you even thought about what you said about the Super Bowl team, but you couldn't be more wrong. Flacco was in his 5th year, Rice isn't even 30 yet, Bernard Pierce was a rookie, Torrey Smith was young, Pitta in his 3rd year, Osemele was a rookie, Arthur Jones in his 3rd year, McPhee in his 2nd, Kruger still on his rookie deal, Upshaw was a rookie, Jimmy Smith a 2nd year player. And Jimmy Smith rarely saw the field his rookie year because he hurt his ankle on the opening kickoff. 

This team isn't bad because of players "aging quickly". It's bad because the front office drafted terribly in recent years and had to use the extra cap money to fix up their mistakes instead of make the team better (Weddle/Elam, Dumervil/Upshaw, Wallace/insane amount of failed receiver picks). 

I definitely agree poor drafting has contributed to this. I never said that wasn't the case. With that said, we weren't a young team. I'll disagree with you there. Also, if you want to throw around an attitude by saying "I'm not sure you even thought about what you said..." then get your facts right because Flacco was in his 4th year not 5th, Pierce didn't have that big of an impact in our Super Bowl run, Kruger was on his rookie deal but he was in his 4th year, just like Flacco. Jimmy Smith didn't see the field because he was injured on ST early against Pittsburgh in the first game of the year, yes, that's true; however, he was always eased along anyway and never really saw the field early and it wasn't just because he injured his ankle. He was never a starter immediately, and that's a fact. I remember that very well. He was behind the likes of Foxworth and Washington and Webb back then. 

We relied on a lot of veterans on the team in key areas, and used rookies rarely to start. KO was young, yes, that's true. But we also had Matt Birk, Bryant McKinnie, Marshal Yanda as veterans and Oher was in his 3rd year. That's a lot of veteran experience to mask 1 rookie's inexperience. Then you have Boldin and Jones, also two veterans, as well as Leach the FB. 

I definitely agree, once again, that poor drafting is hurting us. I'm not sure whether it's poor drafting or bad development, but there's definitely a problem here. 

[rmcjacket23]

Which young guys specifically aren't playing enough?

Do you people even look at the snap counts before you ask these questions?

Who are we holding back at this point?

[K-Dog]

59 minutes ago, Cillmatic said:

Cheap? Lol

Yeah. Someone REALLY said that.

A few posts up.

[MTRavensFan]

16 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Which young guys specifically aren't playing enough?

Do you people even look at the snap counts before you ask these questions?

Who are we holding back at this point?

I think this year's entire draft class was playing yesterday,  and half of them were starting. 

[rmcjacket23]

Just so we can kind of put this to bed, lets look at the playing time of all Ravens players that are currently under rookie contracts (through week 6... excludes yesterdays games):

2013 draft:

Brandon Williams - 63% of defensive snaps

Wagner - 75% of offensive snaps

Juice - 40% of offensive snaps

Jensen - 47% of offensive snaps

Elam - on IR

2014 draft: 

Mosley - 75% of defensive snaps

Jernigan - 69% of defensive snaps

Gillmore - 50% of offensive snaps

Taliaferro - PUP

Urschel - 34% of offensive snaps

2015 draft: 

Perriman - 45% of offensive snaps

Maxx Williams - IR

Carl Davis - IR

ZaDarius - 68% of defensive snaps

Buck Allen - 8% of offensive snaps

Boyle - suspended

Waller - 6% of offensive snaps (missed four games for suspension)

2016 draft:

Stanley - 46% of offensive snaps

Correa - 4% of defensive snaps

Kaufusi - IR

Young - 53% of defensive snaps

Moore - 22% of offensive snaps

Lewis - 78% of offensive snaps

Henry - 0% of defensive snaps

Dixon - 3% of offensive snaps

Judon - 21% of defensive snaps

Note that this excludes yesterdays game, where a lot of these guys got extended time, and also doesn't take into account injuries.

 

Edited October 24, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[kjbmore]

1 hour ago, MTRavensFan said:

We're doing that, and not on purpose - it's because of injuries. Playing our kids is what is getting Joe killed out there, and it's not like we have a choice. 

We went into the season with the intention of starting 2 rookies on the blind side.

We balked at signing Long because he wouldn't sign a waiver.

When Stanley was out there we looked OK and I think we might have held up ok if we had been able to slide Long in to cover while Stanley's out.

[rmcjacket23]

4 minutes ago, kjbmore said:

We went into the season with the intention of starting 2 rookies on the blind side.

We balked at signing Long because he wouldn't sign a waiver.

When Stanley was out there we looked OK and I think we might have held up ok if we had been able to slide Long in to cover while Stanley's out.

Wouldn't having Jake Long here defeat the purpose of "playing the young guys"?

Shouldn't the goal be to find younger depth at the position (which is what we've done)?

[MDguyCeCo]

18 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Just so we can kind of put this to bed, lets look at the playing time of all Ravens players that are currently under rookie contracts (through week 6... excludes yesterdays games):

2013 draft:

Brandon Williams - 63% of defensive snaps

Wagner - 75% of offensive snaps

Juice - 40% of offensive snaps

Jensen - 47% of offensive snaps

Elam - on IR

2014 draft: 

Mosley - 75% of defensive snaps

Jernigan - 69% of defensive snaps

Gillmore - 50% of offensive snaps

Taliaferro - PUP

Urschel - 34% of offensive snaps

2015 draft: 

Perriman - 45% of offensive snaps

Maxx Williams - IR

Carl Davis - IR

ZaDarius - 68% of defensive snaps

Buck Allen - 8% of offensive snaps

Boyle - suspended

Waller - 6% of offensive snaps (missed four games for suspension)

2016 draft:

Stanley - 46% of offensive snaps

Correa - 4% of defensive snaps

Kaufusi - IR

Young - 53% of defensive snaps

Moore - 22% of offensive snaps

Lewis - 78% of offensive snaps

Henry - 0% of defensive snaps

Dixon - 3% of offensive snaps

Judon - 21% of defensive snaps

Note that this excludes yesterdays game, where a lot of these guys got extended time, and also doesn't take into account injuries.

 

I LOVE our Ravens....  but face it....  we are now playing for another early draft pick that won't produce...  OR land on IR or whatever

 

[kjbmore]

5 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Just so we can kind of put this to bed, lets look at the playing time of all Ravens players that are currently under rookie contracts (through week 6... excludes yesterdays games):

2013 draft:

Brandon Williams - 63% of defensive snaps

Wagner - 75% of offensive snaps

Juice - 40% of offensive snaps

Jensen - 47% of offensive snaps

Elam - on IR

2014 draft: 

Mosley - 75% of defensive snaps

Jernigan - 69% of defensive snaps

Gillmore - 50% of offensive snaps

Taliaferro - PUP

Urschel - 34% of offensive snaps

2015 draft: 

Perriman - 45% of offensive snaps

Maxx Williams - IR

Carl Davis - IR

ZaDarius - 68% of defensive snaps

Buck Allen - 8% of offensive snaps

Boyle - suspended

Waller - 6% of offensive snaps (missed four games for suspension)

2016 draft:

Stanley - 46% of offensive snaps

Correa - 4% of defensive snaps

Kaufusi - IR

Young - 53% of defensive snaps

Moore - 22% of offensive snaps

Lewis - 78% of offensive snaps

Henry - 0% of defensive snaps

Dixon - 3% of offensive snaps

Judon - 21% of defensive snaps

Note that this excludes yesterdays game, where a lot of these guys got extended time, and also doesn't take into account injuries.

 

Thanks for that mcjack

yeah so pretty much thinking we need to be dressing and playing Judon, Correa, Perriman, Moore, Henry, Waller

A first and a 2nd round pick - these are the guys that we need to be counting on to carry us forward to our next SB

We think we hit on Judon, pretty sure he's been a healthy scratch few times - dress him and get him out there, much as I love Steve Smith, he's not carrying us to a SB on his own - as much as he tries, know he came back for one last run but I don't think it's happening - if we think Moore can play get him and Perriman out there and let them play. 

Get rid of Hester and get Moore returning.

lets give Willie Henry some snaps and see what we've got

 

[terps85]

1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

I definitely agree poor drafting has contributed to this. I never said that wasn't the case. With that said, we weren't a young team. I'll disagree with you there. Also, if you want to throw around an attitude by saying "I'm not sure you even thought about what you said..." then get your facts right because Flacco was in his 4th year not 5th, Pierce didn't have that big of an impact in our Super Bowl run, Kruger was on his rookie deal but he was in his 4th year, just like Flacco. Jimmy Smith didn't see the field because he was injured on ST early against Pittsburgh in the first game of the year, yes, that's true; however, he was always eased along anyway and never really saw the field early and it wasn't just because he injured his ankle. He was never a starter immediately, and that's a fact. I remember that very well. He was behind the likes of Foxworth and Washington and Webb back then. 

We relied on a lot of veterans on the team in key areas, and used rookies rarely to start. KO was young, yes, that's true. But we also had Matt Birk, Bryant McKinnie, Marshal Yanda as veterans and Oher was in his 3rd year. That's a lot of veteran experience to mask 1 rookie's inexperience. Then you have Boldin and Jones, also two veterans, as well as Leach the FB. 

I definitely agree, once again, that poor drafting is hurting us. I'm not sure whether it's poor drafting or bad development, but there's definitely a problem here. 

I was going to edit my post last night, but it was late so I didn't. I re-read what you wrote and kind of got the sense we were saying the same thing. I wasn't implying that there was no veteran presence on the team, much like you weren't implying there was no contribution from younger players. Which is what I stupidly assumed you meant, and I'm sorry for that (it was late lol). 

One thing I will say is that just because the coaching does not think a younger player is worthy of the starting role, does not mean it is the right decision. We saw this with Judon yesterday getting 2 sacks, after being inactive earlier for the older and more expensive Dumervil. Now, I'm not saying cut Dumervil, but Judon should at least get some pt moving forward (which is what the op is all about). 

[jdynamite]

The only issue I have is  that you mentioned tanking...I don't want the team purposefully lose, even though I'd prefer a better draft pick over an 8-8 season and no playoffs.  Wanting to see young players play more is a common theme throughout every season, however this season we have bunch of young players playing, some more than others.. 

Defensively ( Players 3 years or less playing meaningful snaps) : Jernigan, Urban, Pierce, Mosley, Orr, T.Young, Judon, Z.Smith ( Correa Limited snaps, Henry healthy scratch )

Offensively : Stanley, Lewis, Urshel, Jensen, Dixon, C.Moore, Perriman, Hurst, T.West, C.Gilmore, Waller (M.Williams injured now, B.Allen Healthy Scratch)

The team is filled with young players more so than any other time. Only 11 players on the roster are  over 30. It's just some of them need time to develop and contribute and others just aren't good. It's unfortunate to have so many of those names be o-linemen and still not have positive outlook at the position. Jensen and Hurst have both looked abysmal at times, Urshel has done okay, but he can't even take over the starting Center job from one of our main sources of pain Zuttah.

 

[terps85]

57 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Which young guys specifically aren't playing enough?

Do you people even look at the snap counts before you ask these questions?

Who are we holding back at this point?

It was my understanding that the op was talking about when the veteran players get healthy. 

[kjbmore]

14 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Wouldn't having Jake Long here defeat the purpose of "playing the young guys"?

Shouldn't the goal be to find younger depth at the position (which is what we've done)?

In this instance I'd just like to protect our $120 million QB coming back from an ACL 

 

[rmcjacket23]

13 minutes ago, terps85 said:

It was my understanding that the op was talking about when the veteran players get healthy. 

But I don't even think that matters. There's only a handful of guys losing snaps to veterans when they come back. Pretty much the only guy people care about there is Judon.

Perriman seems to be playing about the same regardless of whether Steve plays or not.

Based on what I'm seeing, this entire thread is basically about Judon.

I've heard Willie Henry's name a few times, but he plays the same positions as Jernigan, so are we advocating giving Jernigan less snaps to find out if Henry can play?

 

[jdynamite]

8 minutes ago, kjbmore said:

Thanks for that mcjack

yeah so pretty much thinking we need to be dressing and playing Judon, Correa, Perriman, Moore, Henry, Waller

A first and a 2nd round pick - these are the guys that we need to be counting on to carry us forward to our next SB

We think we hit on Judon, pretty sure he's been a healthy scratch few times - dress him and get him out there, much as I love Steve Smith, he's not carrying us to a SB on his own - as much as he tries, know he came back for one last run but I don't think it's happening - if we think Moore can play get him and Perriman out there and let them play. 

Get rid of Hester and get Moore returning.

lets give Willie Henry some snaps and see what we've got

 

I'll say that I'd rather see Correa & Judon on the field over McClellan just about any time except maybe a goalline stand due to him setting the edge better than them. But McClellan just looks out of place defensively. The level of play is so low from him that they couldn't be any worse unless they just don't know the playbook.

Haven't had an issue with Henry not playing because the defensive front has been strong. Guy is playing very well so I can't see Henry getting his snaps, Pierce has entrenched himself into that equation as well. Plus who is getting benched for Henry to become active?

* Chris Moore must not be too good at returning, I mean during the preseason he rarely got the looks, he was never mentioned much in the competition was always a campanaro vs Reynolds battle.

Hester has muffed a few punts which is a big issue, but he really hasn't had any opportunities to return punts due to good kicking and punt coverage, now I'm not sure how much is poor blocking and setup vs great coverage.  A high percentage of kickoffs are touchbacks and with the new touchback going to 25 its obvious he's being instructed to take the yards rather than return it. Lastly, the 2 or 3 times that Hester did have a good return the offense didn't do anything with it.

[rmcjacket23]

19 minutes ago, kjbmore said:

In this instance I'd just like to protect our $120 million QB coming back from an ACL 

 

Don't think we've done a poor job of that in terms of personnel really... just had a ton of injuries at the same time.

I don't think Long is necessarily a better option as a backup LT over Lewis at this point. Plus, I'm not sure it matters. 

When you're missing at least 2-3 starters on the line each week, adding even a slightly better veteran backup isn't going to have the kind of major impact we are looking for.

[CorvusMagnus]

From the perspective of inexpensive role players this is the best Raven's draft I've seen as a fan (which isn't terribly long, 2010), and that's really the most encouraging thing about it. I think there is some indication that Ozzie can do a considerably better job on the other side of the round, and I think we can reasonably expect that this year unless we blow up against all odds.

In terms of playing rookies, Correa is my biggest concern, since he desperately needs playing time but he's not seasoned enough to be anything but a situational rusher, and the vets aren't playing well enough to put him in those positions without becoming a liability.

[gtalk12]

injuries have plagued us since the SB run...I do not know what is going on

[ALPHA]

Even though it's early it's sad to see Correa so far behind Judon.

[January J]

Aren't we already playing most of our young guys anyway due to injury? Almost every single one of our rookies has gotten significant playing time aside from Willie Henry maybe.

Edited October 24, 2016 by January J