Any trades brewing?

[January J]

2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I think the Ravens have a better shot of retaining Williams than the Pats did with Collins. Collins starting point was a Von Miller deal.

I guess that's true. Before this year it looked like he was going to demand too much money but he hasn't exactly been lighting it up stats wise anyway- a lot of what he does goes unseen. Bodes well for us retaining him- but other teams know how much he contributes as well whether the numbers show it or not. Not saying we won't find a way but I think it will be difficult to retain both him and Jerni- and Timmy has been on fire so far this year.

[BmoreBird22]

1 minute ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

IDK that its a foregone conclusion that they'd get a 3rd for him if he leaves.

Also entering FA you've got guys likely to make big money like:

 

Alshon Jeffrey

Andre Whitworth

Matt Kalil

Andre Smith

Sebastian Vollmer

Riley Reiff

Jason Pierre-Paul

Calais Campbell

Dantari Poe

Kawaan Short

Demarcus Ware

Nick Perry

Melvin INgram

Datone Jones

Junior Galette

Chandler Jones

Dont'a Hightower

Trumaine Johnson

Stephon Gillmore

Morris Claiborne

Dre Kirkpatrick

Logan Ryan

Eric Berry...

 

How many 3rds do they hand out? Only like 4, right? Some of these guys obviously wont make as much, and some won't leave. But, you only need a couple to leave and make more for him to only net a 4th... and the 4th theyre giving up is going to be the 1st pick in the 4th; the 3rd they recoup at best will only be a couple picks higher, and theres potential it drops to the end of the round.

Alshon, JPP, Poe, Short, Ware, Ingram, Hightower, Chandler Jones, Trumaine Johnson, Stephon Gillmore, Morris Claiborne, Kirkpatrick, Logan Ryan, and Eric Berry could all stand to make a ton of money.

 

Again, not saying it wasnt a smart move on the Browns part (in the first place). But, the guarantee that their pick improves even if they dont resign him just isnt fact.

There actually isn't a limit on how many of each you can hand out.

If 10 players all got $110M contracts a

AND made the All-Pro team, we would see 10 3rd round comps handed out.

He's asking for Von Miller type money and I think he's worth it and so do many players around the NFL, judging by Twitter. That'd net a 3rd.

Now, the Browns have $55M in cap currently, so I doubt he leaves.

[VermontRaven]

2 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Collins wanted Von Miller money? You sure? I've heard $50m from every source I've read.

You sure you're not thinking Chandler Jones?

ESPN had this quote in its article announcing the trade: 

"Collins' four-year rookie contract will expire after the season, and he was at one point asking for what one league source described to ESPN's Adam Schefter as "Von Miller money." The Denver Broncos gave Miller a six-year, $114.5 million deal in July, including $70 million guaranteed. "

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/17935817/new-england-patriots-trade-jamie-collins-cleveland-browns-draft-pick

[rmw10]

3 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

There actually isn't a limit on how many of each you can hand out.

If 10 players all got $110M contracts a

AND made the All-Pro team, we would see 10 3rd round comps handed out.

He's asking for Von Miller type money and I think he's worth it and so do many players around the NFL, judging by Twitter. That'd net a 3rd.

Now, the Browns have $55M in cap currently, so I doubt he leaves.

While there's definitely not a limit, you figure they have to draw a line at some point.  With the way contracts are trending, you could conceivably see half of the picks be in the 3rd round, so they're going to have to make some alterations at some point.

With that being said, if you look at Damon Harrison (who will cancel out), he'd likely be in line for a 4th round pick right now.  We know that's going to be what Williams is aiming for, so it's not inconceivable to think that he's a 4th round comp pick for us - and that assumes we don't have another year like this year where we actually sign some UFAs.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

17 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

There actually isn't a limit on how many of each you can hand out.

If 10 players all got $110M contracts a

AND made the All-Pro team, we would see 10 3rd round comps handed out.

He's asking for Von Miller type money and I think he's worth it and so do many players around the NFL, judging by Twitter. That'd net a 3rd.

Now, the Browns have $55M in cap currently, so I doubt he leaves.

Dude's not getting Von Miller money. If that's where he's going to draw the line he's going to be disappointed.

He's not a pure pass rusher. I mean he does a lot of things very well, but hes a 4-3 OLB through and through. Very good in coverage, great tackler, forces fumbles, gets INT's, but hes got 10 career sacks. And thats what teams pay for.

He's closer to 3-4 ILB than he is to 3-4 OLB or 4-3 DE... and those guys just typically dont make as much. Have a feeling he's going to be extremely disappointed.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

25 minutes ago, VermontRaven said:

ESPN had this quote in its article announcing the trade: 

"Collins' four-year rookie contract will expire after the season, and he was at one point asking for what one league source described to ESPN's Adam Schefter as "Von Miller money." The Denver Broncos gave Miller a six-year, $114.5 million deal in July, including $70 million guaranteed. "

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/17935817/new-england-patriots-trade-jamie-collins-cleveland-browns-draft-pick

Like I said - cool he can ask for it, and want it all his heart desires.

4-3 OLB, 3-4 ILB types just dont get paid that much. Extremely versatile... covers, tackles, gets INTs and FF... but hes not an edge rusher. 

Von Miller's contract is nuts, but we've seen pass rushers get paid top money before. Never before has a guy in Collins mold been a highest paid type defender. They just arent valued as much by teams and GMs.

If someone does it, cool. It'll just be totally out of whack from the norm and whats happened historically. 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[BmoreBird22]

15 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Dude's not getting Von Miller money. If that's where he's going to draw the line he's going to be disappointed.

He's not a pure pass rusher. I mean he does a lot of things very well, but hes a 4-3 OLB through and through. Very good in coverage, great tackler, forces fumbles, gets INT's, but hes got 10 career sacks. And thats what teams pay for.

He's closer to 3-4 ILB than he is to 3-4 OLB or 4-3 DE... and those guys just typically dont make as much. Have a feeling he's going to be extremely disappointed.

He's probably the best pass rushing 4-3 OLB in the NFL currently and if a team really wants him to rush the passer, I'm very certain he could.

He's just absurdly athletic and does it all well. He's one of the elites in coverage, the best pass rusher for his position, and pretty solid against the run. Needs to refine his tackling, but he's just an every down game changing linebacker.

He could get Von Miller money and he'd deserve it.

[BmoreBird22]

30 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

While there's definitely not a limit, you figure they have to draw a line at some point.  With the way contracts are trending, you could conceivably see half of the picks be in the 3rd round, so they're going to have to make some alterations at some point.

With that being said, if you look at Damon Harrison (who will cancel out), he'd likely be in line for a 4th round pick right now.  We know that's going to be what Williams is aiming for, so it's not inconceivable to think that he's a 4th round comp pick for us - and that assumes we don't have another year like this year where we actually sign some UFAs.

I'd imagine they do tweak the formula year to year, but if that's what the formula puts out, I don't think the league is going to deny a team the right to that pick.

[rmw10]

9 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I'd imagine they do tweak the formula year to year, but if that's what the formula puts out, I don't think the league is going to deny a team the right to that pick.

I think they'll eventually have to put a cap (for lack of a better word) on it.  Can't see them going gung ho to the point of having 20 picks at the end of the 3rd.

[BmoreBird22]

35 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I think they'll eventually have to put a cap (for lack of a better word) on it.  Can't see them going gung ho to the point of having 20 picks at the end of the 3rd.

I still think if he were to get Von Miller money elsewhere that'd it'd net a third, even with some of the other contracts.

[rmw10]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

I still think if he were to get Von Miller money elsewhere that'd it'd net a third, even with some of the other contracts.

I was looking more at Brandon Williams.  But yeah, if anyone gets Miller money, it's a 3rd.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

42 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

He's probably the best pass rushing 4-3 OLB in the NFL currently and if a team really wants him to rush the passer, I'm very certain he could.

He's just absurdly athletic and does it all well. He's one of the elites in coverage, the best pass rusher for his position, and pretty solid against the run. Needs to refine his tackling, but he's just an every down game changing linebacker.

He could get Von Miller money and he'd deserve it.

idk... id put Bruce Irvin ahead of him for sure. Anthony Barr and Thomas Davis too.

Lavonte David, KJ Wright, Vic Beasley, all probably better pass rushers. 

10 sacks in 4.5 years isnt anything special, even among guys at the same position. Granted hes not asked to do it alot, but neither are these other guys. I get that he's not in those situations a ton, but i think that has to do with his skill set - its not the best use for him.

He's a very good, to great defender. But, hes not JJ Watt, Von Miller, old Suh disruptive. Hes not changing games by himself. Paying almost anyone that money is dumb imo, but especially for a guy that can be avoided.

[PurpleHorseman]

Thomas Davis is a smart blitzer at finding spots to blitz. Collins can actually beat tackles if asked. Let's not forget the patriots have Mingo now who is just as athletic and getting increased reps every week. Mingo was not used right in Cleveland and Collins could find same problem but he is already coached up. Mingo is catching on and getting reps. He is as freakish as Collins and comes cheaper.

[BmoreBird22]

2 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

idk... id put Bruce Irvin ahead of him for sure. Anthony Barr and Thomas Davis too.

Lavonte David, KJ Wright, Vic Beasley, all probably better pass rushers. 

10 sacks in 4.5 years isnt anything special, even among guys at the same position. Granted hes not asked to do it alot, but neither are these other guys. I get that he's not in those situations a ton, but i think that has to do with his skill set - its not the best use for him.

He's a very good, to great defender. But, hes not JJ Watt, Von Miller, old Suh disruptive. Hes not changing games by himself. Paying almost anyone that money is dumb imo, but especially for a guy that can be avoided.

I wouldn't put Bruce Irvin ahead of him just because Irvin is certainly a 3-4 OLB. The 4-3 just wasn't a good fit for him and it's probably why he left Seattle.

And I will admit to totally forgetting about Anthony Barr because yeah, I'd take no 4-3 OLB over Barr as a pass rusher. I was forgetting him because I was looking at WLBs, not all OLBs, but Barr would be my one.

As far as the others, Davis isn't a slouch, but he's just not a special talent there, David is decent, but you'd like him in coverage more, Wright is definitely a pass coverage specialist, not a pass rusher, and Beasley slides to DE to rush the passer. 

If you go back to watch Collins at Southern Miss, it was pretty abundantly clear that he'd probably do really well as a 3-4 OLB (which we'll see in Cleveland). He won't function with his hand in the dirt, but his long frame and long arms combined with his quickness and overall athleticism make him a nightmare off of the edge.

It's actually more like 10.5 sacks in 2.5 seasons (he's played 3.5 seasons and didn't record one in his rookie season). To put that into perspective, Barr has 8.5 in that time frame, Davis has 8.0, David has 5.0, Wright has 5.0, Irvin has 13.0 (but he's also playing in the 3-4 now). So, if we want to say his 10.5 sacks isn't impressive, but praise Barr for being a great pass rusher, we should put it into perspective.

Fact of the matter is Jamie Collins does just about everything well and I'm going to venture to say the Browns will give him more opportunities to rush the passer. Do I expect a ton this year? Honestly, with that defensive line, not really. But come next year, I expect that if he stays with Cleveland or a 3-4 team, we could see double digit sacks.

And of course he isn't doing what Miller, Watt, or Suh are because he's not rushing the passer on nearly every play. He's a great run defender, elite in coverage and capable of blanking his man, and probably the best WLB pass rusher.

[BmoreBird22]

3 minutes ago, PurpleHorseman said:

Thomas Davis is a smart blitzer at finding spots to blitz. Collins can actually beat tackles if asked. Let's not forget the patriots have Mingo now who is just as athletic and getting increased reps every week. Mingo was not used right in Cleveland and Collins could find same problem but he is already coached up. Mingo is catching on and getting reps. He is as freakish as Collins and comes cheaper.

I really liked Mingo coming into the draft and always felt he'd be better served in the 4-3, just like how I felt Collins would be better in the 3-4. Seems like a good swap for those two guys.

[Gtown Purple]

The ravens don't have the cap room to sign anyone big and are still in the playoff hunt so won't be selling. I don't expect any trades from us.

[Sami84]

Just now, Gtown Purple said:

The ravens don't have the cap room to sign anyone big and are still in the playoff hunt so won't be selling. I don't expect any trades from us.

no cap room and a bad team..

what a great combination.

[BmoreBird22]

Apparently the Jets initiated trade talks with the Cowboys regarding Richardson.

They're really trying hard to sell him.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I wouldn't put Bruce Irvin ahead of him just because Irvin is certainly a 3-4 OLB. The 4-3 just wasn't a good fit for him and it's probably why he left Seattle.

And I will admit to totally forgetting about Anthony Barr because yeah, I'd take no 4-3 OLB over Barr as a pass rusher. I was forgetting him because I was looking at WLBs, not all OLBs, but Barr would be my one.

As far as the others, Davis isn't a slouch, but he's just not a special talent there, David is decent, but you'd like him in coverage more, Wright is definitely a pass coverage specialist, not a pass rusher, and Beasley slides to DE to rush the passer. 

If you go back to watch Collins at Southern Miss, it was pretty abundantly clear that he'd probably do really well as a 3-4 OLB (which we'll see in Cleveland). He won't function with his hand in the dirt, but his long frame and long arms combined with his quickness and overall athleticism make him a nightmare off of the edge.

It's actually more like 10.5 sacks in 2.5 seasons (he's played 3.5 seasons and didn't record one in his rookie season). To put that into perspective, Barr has 8.5 in that time frame, Davis has 8.0, David has 5.0, Wright has 5.0, Irvin has 13.0 (but he's also playing in the 3-4 now). So, if we want to say his 10.5 sacks isn't impressive, but praise Barr for being a great pass rusher, we should put it into perspective.

Fact of the matter is Jamie Collins does just about everything well and I'm going to venture to say the Browns will give him more opportunities to rush the passer. Do I expect a ton this year? Honestly, with that defensive line, not really. But come next year, I expect that if he stays with Cleveland or a 3-4 team, we could see double digit sacks.

And of course he isn't doing what Miller, Watt, or Suh are because he's not rushing the passer on nearly every play. He's a great run defender, elite in coverage and capable of blanking his man, and probably the best WLB pass rusher.

Wait, you cant just throw out a season for Collins bc he didnt notch a sack.... how the F is that logical??? Well, he didnt produce that year, so lets just throw it away? He played in all 16 games - why are we throwing that out?

 

And, back to the point... dependable source saying he's seeking to out due Kuechly's $12m/yr, and get $50m guaranteed. 

That makes sense. Make whatever argument you want for him, hes not getting Von Miller money. He a great defender... but not the best or most disruptive defender in the league - i dont even think he was the best defensive player on the Patriots.

Edited November 1, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[Gtown Purple]

49 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

no cap room and a bad team..

what a great combination.

Thats what happens when you are top 5 in the league in dead money.

[Sunday QB]

Quote

 

Ask Joe to take a pay cut, sign Richardson and convert him to a DE.

[Sunday QB]

Just now, Sunday QB said:

Ask Joe to take a pay cut, sign Richardson and convert him to a DE.

or sign Joe Thomas and move Stanley to right tackle.

[Sami84]

5 minutes ago, Gtown Purple said:

Thats what happens when you are top 5 in the league in dead money.

usually a team thats bad has the luxury of being able to use cap to improve. The only winner in the ravens entire situation is flacco. unless it's someone looking for their 3rd contract ( ie anyone over 30) his crappy and undeserved contract is stopping us from getting GOOD to very GOOD players in their prime during FA. 

The ravens should expect NOTHING from this FO. No pleasant surprises unless it's a guy whos over 30 with a great rep ( ie weddle or smith).

 

 

[Deflated Football]

18 minutes ago, Sunday QB said:

or sign Joe Thomas and move Stanley to right tackle.

That'd be amazing 

[Sami84]

Just now, Deflated Football said:

That'd be amazing 

Eric De Costa is laughing..for a precious 4th or 5th rounder? no chance..

 

[Deflated Football]

Just now, Sami84 said:

Eric De Costa is laughing..for a precious 4th or 5th rounder? no chance..

 

I used to not care about the front offices stinginess about trading draft picks because of how good we were at drafting, but nowadays we're average at best and we need some stars NOW

[Sami84]

Just now, Deflated Football said:

I used to not care about the front offices stinginess about trading draft picks because of how good we were at drafting, but nowadays we're average at best and we need some stars NOW

 

fat chance..and miss out on legends in the making such as za'darius smith? no way jose..

[-Truth-]

4 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Dude's not getting Von Miller money. If that's where he's going to draw the line he's going to be disappointed.

He's not a pure pass rusher. I mean he does a lot of things very well, but hes a 4-3 OLB through and through. Very good in coverage, great tackler, forces fumbles, gets INT's, but hes got 10 career sacks. And thats what teams pay for.

He's closer to 3-4 ILB than he is to 3-4 OLB or 4-3 DE... and those guys just typically dont make as much. Have a feeling he's going to be extremely disappointed.

Collins has had an outstanding career, but I agree with this sentiment. There are likely a handful of front seven names league-wide whose difference-making abilities could net them over $110 million, and they are arguably mostly limited to Aaron Donald, Von Miller, J.J. Watt, Khalil Mack and Justin Houston, with a few more debatable cases. The case with them is that they're all terrific run defenders but they're also special pass rushers, and the latter is what nets the majority of the biggest contracts. I just don't know that Collins possesses the ability in that department to fall into that category. I personally wouldn't pay him anywhere near Miller's contract. That's just me.

Edited November 1, 2016 by -Truth-

[JoeyFlex5]

Collins is not worth von Miller money. He is an excellent 3 down defender who can also cover and pass rush at a very high level but Miller's pass rush alone makes him worth more. 15 years ago Collins would cash out and become the highest paid defender in the league, but his pass rush isn't even close to von Miller's which makes all his other skills irrelevant when comparing contracts.

[allblackraven]

54 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Collins is not worth von Miller money. He is an excellent 3 down defender who can also cover and pass rush at a very high level but Miller's pass rush alone makes him worth more. 15 years ago Collins would cash out and become the highest paid defender in the league, but his pass rush isn't even close to von Miller's which makes all his other skills irrelevant when comparing contracts.

Heck, I'm not even sure Miller is worth Von Miller money