Is anyone else tired of points being taken off the board?

[Gtown Purple]

I was literally screaming at my tv on the 4th and goal. Way to early to be chasing points. If we can't convert 4th downs or trick plays we need to just stop. its becoming a theme.

[OUravensfan]

No brainer to go for it in that situation. If you stop them they're backed up at the 1 and we get the ball back in good field position which is what happened anyway. 4 plays to get 3 yards and we couldn't do it, this is what we should be upset about, Harbaugh was right to go for it.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Lol yea i dont get this. Lets not be upset with the professional football players who couldnt get 1 yard.

Lets be mad at the coach, the leader, for having faith in his highly paid professionals to do the job.

[jboy19]

At times yeah, but it's hard to hold the coaches too accountable for the Giants decision. I'm obviously upset with the result on the 4 and 1, but at that point the defense was so hobbled, it's hard to think that they could have stopped anything. I think Harbaugh thought that the Giants O would go off and he was going to be chasing a lead, which was honestly pretty reasonable to believe at the time considering OBJ had just had his 75 yard TD. There were three possibilities of what could have happened. 

1. TD. Would have given the Ravens a 3 pt lead with extra point. Giants would have started at/around 25 after kickoff. 

2. FG: Would have given the Ravens a 1 point deficit. Giants would have started at/around 25 after kickoff.

3. Failure to Score: Would have kept the Ravens with 4 point deficit, but the Giants offense would have started at their own 1. 

With 1Q left, the ideal situation for the Ravens, (considering their makeshift secondary/Beckham starting to go off) is to prevent a shootout. So even though there was a high risk of failure, the failure would have been preferable to a FG at the time as it still gives the Giants terrible field position which mandates more conservative play calling while still keeping the game within 1 possession. 

Another risk with a field goal is that the Giants could have taken an 8 point lead if they scored subsequently. If we couldn't get the ball in from the 1 on 3 chances, I don't think that there's a better chance of making a 2pt conversion if even getting another TD. The only reason the Ravens had got into that field position in the first place is because of a penalty and that's not a reliable strategy to getting in the redzone (even if it did happen again twice subsequently- we can't think with hindsight). 

I get why people are frustrated with leaving points on the board, and I'm not saying Harbaugh has been perfect by any means, but in this specific scenario, there's decent reasoning behind what he did. 

[MTRavensFan]

Coulda shoulda woulda. Yeah, it's frustrating,  but that Qb sneak with Joe works like 99% of the time. Only frustrating because it's not working. 

[Purple_City39]

Sorry but I agreed with the decision then, and I agree with it now.  I don't agree with the pitch/toss/sweep play, as they should have ran a power play up the gut imo, but the decision to go for it on 4th only a half inch out from the goal line was an easy one.  Juice not making his block was the worst thing about the play.

[Gtown Purple]

Couple of questions here.

 

You guys don't think the game is different with 3 points on the board considering how the game ended?

 

Doesn't past perfromance usually dictate future decisions? We have failed multiple times in similar situations this season.

[sflegend89]

When you score in that situation: "Gotta commend Harbs for being aggressive and not settling for 3. Sometimes when you're struggling in tight games you need to take a risk to help break a game open".

When you don't score: "Just take the 3. The offense needs every point it can get right now. Don't take unnecessary risks in a close game".

Edited October 18, 2016 by sflegend89

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 minutes ago, Gtown Purple said:

Couple of questions here.

 

You guys don't think the game is different with 3 points on the board considering how the game ended?

 

Doesn't past perfromance usually dictate future decisions? We have failed multiple times in similar situations this season.

Yes the game is very different. 

Like for example, with less of a lead on the last drive the Giants dont give us multiple open looks to the middle of the field. They play it much tighter and maybe we never even get a 1st down.

Who knows - maybe after kick the FG, the Giants score TDs on 3 straight drives and destroy us.

Thats the thing - yes, of course things would be different. But thats all we can say. Different. 

Different is not better.

But, what I do know is that we should be able to punch the ball in from the 1 yd line. Idc what happened last week. In fact, had we missed last week the law of averages would tell you it should only increase your chances of doing so this week. Not necessarily true, but still.

Even with missing the opportunity - guess what - we scored the go ahead TD with less than 2 minutes left. So who cares what happened before that?? Changing what happened before that changes everything, and you cant just say give us those 3 pts and keep everything else the same. It doesnt work that way.

With the way things happened we were in a position to win. Just keep them from driving 75 yds in less than 2 minutes. We got them to 4th down on the first set of downs. And on 4th and 1 we give up a 66 yd TD pass.

Thats what this game came down to. Getting that stop. Bc thats what happened, that aws the reality of the game and theres no way to know what wouldve happened if you change the 4th and 1. Maybe it helps us, maybe it hurts us. No way to know - so its kinda pointless.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

4 minutes ago, sflegend89 said:

When you score in that situation: "Gotta commend Harbs for being aggressive and not settling for 3. Sometimes when you're struggling in tight games you need to take a risk to help break a game open".

When you don't score: "Just take the 3. The offense needs every point it can get right now. Don't take unnecessary risks in a close game".

When you score in that situation: "Great decision. WIth a banged up offensive line and defense... you've got to get the maximum points in that situation. Cant assume you're going to be back in that situation ever again."

When you don't score: "Why would you assume a banged up offensive line is going to make it there? Take the points because you know its going to be a close game and 3 points could be the difference?"

 

Its stupid. So, 3 pts could be the difference, so we shouldnt go for 4 more than that when what should be an easy situation presents itself??

So, you dont have faith in the OL to get us into the endzone from 1 yard out.... and your suggestion is take 3 pts which still puts us behind the Giants, and have faith that theyre going to be good enough to move the offense 75 yds on an ensuing drive? Its stupid to assume to can get 1 yard. Obviously the logical and intelligent fans know you kick the 3, and trust your OL to get 60+ yds on the next drive.

 

Hindsight and pointless "analysis."

[AsianRice]

All Hindsight analysis....BS conclusion per say.....

 

At that moment, we must go on 4th down....if Juice blocked his guy, it's a win in the pocket....

[rmcjacket23]

21 minutes ago, Gtown Purple said:

Couple of questions here.

 

You guys don't think the game is different with 3 points on the board considering how the game ended?

 

Doesn't past perfromance usually dictate future decisions? We have failed multiple times in similar situations this season.

Which times are you referring to? Hint: not all 4th downs are equal. How many times have we failed at 4th and goal from the 1 this year?

[jboy19]

4 minutes ago, Gtown Purple said:

Couple of questions here.

 

You guys don't think the game is different with 3 points on the board considering how the game ended?

 

Doesn't past perfromance usually dictate future decisions? We have failed multiple times in similar situations this season.

 

1. It likely would not have been. The Giants were going off and the secondary was awful so starting that at the 25 as opposed to starting at the 1 could have made a huge difference. Aside from Young's interception (which was an amazing INT that was more a credit to him than a bad throw by Manning), this was the only drive that the Giants didn't get points from in the second half. That absolutely is dispositive. 

In order for the FG to have actually helped, the Ravens would have still needed a defensive stop while the Giants were able to utilize their entire offense starting at/around the 25 as opposed to a conservative offense that was backed up to their own endzone. Since that hadn't happened in the entire second half, there's not a good reason to think it would have changed. 

2. I think it's difficult to lump all 4th down decisions together. There's so many different factors- game momentum, injuries, field position, point difference, etc. that go into these decisions that it's hard to say we'll keep struggling. Not every 4th down decision has been good, but to say it's a consistent problem seems dramatic since we're usually more upset with the results than the actual decisions themselves. 

[redrum52]

My beef with this call is the play selection.  I'd rather just try another sneak, but whatever. 2/5 of the OL are out and a bunch of guys out of position.  The Giants DL, I think, is pretty decent against the run.

[rmcjacket23]

I took the liberty of crunching some numbers on this. I looked over the last five seasons (playoffs included) at instances where we went for it on 4th down in a situation where kicking a FG could be "reasonably justified". That terms is inherently subjective, obviously.

Assumptions I made:

1. Ball had to be at the 35 yard line or closer. I'm not going to debate the risk/reward of declining to kick a 55-60 yard FG in favor of going for it on 4th and short. And no, I don't care about how big a leg our kicker has, because his accuracy from that distance isn't good enough to factor that in my judgment.

2. I excluded games where the game score dictated that going for it was the correct decision. There were games where we were both winning and losing by like 20 points in the 4th quarter where we elected to go for it instead of kicking. I think the rationale there is obvious.

Here's my findings:

• 27 instances of 4th down attempts instead of kicking FGs over five seasons (2011-2015).
• 22 of those instances were on 4th and 1. We were 1 for 5 converting longer than that.
• Of those 22 instances, we had 10 conversions. 
• Of those 10 conversions, 7 were converted into TDs, 2 into FGs, and 1 into a Punt. So once we converted the 1st down, we were 90% at turning that into equal or great points than the FG we passed on.
• In terms of "net points" (Points we gained by going for it vs points we passed on by not kicking a FG), over that five year period, we would have netted a total loss of 11 points. We gained 28 points from going for it, converting and scoring a TD, but we lost 39 points from passing on 12 FGs and having to punt on one drive where we did convert but did not score.
  • Note that this is inherently flawed, because it assumes a 100% success rate on all FGs attempted. Given that Tucker has a career 88% FG pct, we can assume that roughly 1-2 of those FGs would likely be misses, so that likely drops the net point loss total down to about 7 points.
• If we were to play the very dumb "everything happens afterwards the exact same way" game, then the Ravens potentially lost 3 games based on these decisions
  • 2013 vs Packers. Down 3-0 in mid-2nd quarter. We went for it on 4th and goal from the 1 and did not convert. We lost 19-17
  • 2014 at Bengals. Down 7-0 late in the 1st quarter. We went for it on 4th and goal from the 1 and did not convert. We lost 27-27.
  • 2015 at Dolphins. Scoreless game in mid-2nd quarter. We went for it on 4th and 1 from the 2 and did not convert. We lost 15-13.
• However, there are also games where, using the same logic, we would have won games with the decision to go for it AND convert it
  • 2013 vs Vikings. Down 12-7 late in the 4th quarter (with time remaining to kick, stop, and get the ball back). We went for it on 4th and goal from the 1 and converted for a TD. We won the game 29-26.
  • 2015 vs Chargers. Down 10-6 mid-2nd quarter. We went for it on 4th and 1 from the 23, converted, and scored a TD later on the drive. We won that game 29-26.

[trevorsteadman]

I agree... I know good teams would go for it and convert. But with how close all the games have been for this team the past two seasons you would think taking the field goal would be better. It has hurt us in all 3 of our losses we need to put points on the board when we have the best kicker. Especially when it is the first week with an offensive coordinator. I like the aggressive approach but it has costed us 3 games now... We need to play it safe until this team finds its identity.

[mmcclend]

3 hours ago, Gtown Purple said:

I was literally screaming at my tv on the 4th and goal. Way to early to be chasing points. If we can't convert 4th downs or trick plays we need to just stop. its becoming a theme.

Nice point man and although I disagree I actually respect your opinion. It's worth debating forsure considering our lack of success going for it. But converting that play tells a coach a lot about his team. So I think the right call is to go. But like I said, your point is valid. 

[rmcjacket23]

29 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

I agree... I know good teams would go for it and convert. But with how close all the games have been for this team the past two seasons you would think taking the field goal would be better. It has hurt us in all 3 of our losses we need to put points on the board when we have the best kicker. Especially when it is the first week with an offensive coordinator. I like the aggressive approach but it has costed us 3 games now... We need to play it safe until this team finds its identity.

But in these instances, the "best kicker" argument doesn't really matter. The ball is at the 1 yard line. All you need is a high school soccer player to make that kick.

I'm going for it for two reasons...

1. My defense is collapsing in front of my very eyes.

2. I don't have confidence and can't assume that my offense will just go down the field and give us another scoring opportunity. We go full quarters at a time with the inability to get into scoring territory. Highly presumptuous I think to assume we will just be able to make those points up again later.

There's scenarios where I think kicking in this spot is valid. This just wasn't one of them in my opinion.

[Gtown Purple]

13 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

Nice point man and although I disagree I actually respect your opinion. It's worth debating forsure considering our lack of success going for it. But converting that play tells a coach a lot about his team. So I think the right call is to go. But like I said, your point is valid. 

I don't know, maybe if we give them the bal at the 25 after a fg they still score, who knows. All I know is that taking points off the board combined with the other mistakes we are making just sets us back so far.

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, Gtown Purple said:

I don't know, maybe if we give them the bal at the 25 after a fg they still score, who knows. All I know is that taking points off the board combined with the other mistakes we are making just sets us back so far.

Right and the latter is the biggest issue. 

No different than John accepting the penalty in the Raiders game instead of allowing them to kick a FG. He gives his defense a 3rd and 17 from like the 35 yard line. He's giving his defense an opportunity to make a play that will keep points off the scoreboard entirely. 

And what does the defense do? Give up a 16 pass, then jump offsides like 12 year olds on a hard count, then give up another like 20 yards for a TD. Hardly executing well wouldn't you say?

[Gtown Purple]

1 minute ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Right and the latter is the biggest issue. 

No different than John accepting the penalty in the Raiders game instead of allowing them to kick a FG. He gives his defense a 3rd and 17 from like the 35 yard line. He's giving his defense an opportunity to make a play that will keep points off the scoreboard entirely. 

And what does the defense do? Give up a 16 pass, then jump offsides like 12 year olds on a hard count, then give up another like 20 yards for a TD. Hardly executing well wouldn't you say?

Here is the million dollar question though..........

 

How do you get professional football players to stop doing stupid Crap?

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, Gtown Purple said:

Here is the million dollar question though..........

 

How do you get professional football players to stop doing stupid Crap?

Difficult to answer. Fans would say you start benching them, cutting them, etc.

But in some of these cases, these are vested, important, veterans who are making these mistakes. Suggs jumps offsides like once a game it seems.

So cutting them is difficult, both from production and financial perspectives. In theory, the benefit outweighs the mistakes for important players.

If bench or depth players are making these mistakes, you move on from them if they happen frequently.

 

[Moderator 3]

4 minutes ago, Gtown Purple said:

Here is the million dollar question though..........

 

How do you get professional football players to stop doing stupid Crap?

Prayer?

[Gtown Purple]

Just now, Moderator 3 said:

Prayer?

My dad used to reward me with 7-11 pizza when I played a good game. Maybe try that?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

46 minutes ago, Gtown Purple said:

Here is the million dollar question though..........

 

How do you get professional football players to stop doing stupid Crap?

Now you're on to something.

This is the crux of it all. We've all spent the last 3 weeks arguing this coaching decision and that, this scheme and that, be aggressive here or conservative...

When really, it all boils down to these highly paid, professionals not doing stupid crap. Not committing penalties. Not dropping passes. Not overthrowing people. Not holding. Not jumping offsides. Not letting receivers run free. Not dropping the ball at the 1 yard line after you've made the game-changing interception. etc, etc, etc...

It really is the only question in my eyes. The rest is semantics. It's argumentative and stuff we as fans like to talk about. Perriman not dropping a guaranteed TD is not a question - it's not "should he have, or shouldnt he have" maybe theres a "could he" in there... but he definitely couldve, shouldve, so how do we get him to?

Theres no, "Should Suggs stay onsides?" Yes, he should. But how do we get him to?

 

That is the multi-million dollar question. The one that Harbs, his staff, Oz, and the players are all paid to answer. Hopefully we get start getting them this weekend.

[K-Dog]

7 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Lol yea i dont get this. Lets not be upset with the professional football players who couldnt get 1 yard.

Lets be mad at the coach, the leader, for having faith in his highly paid professionals to do the job.

Crazy talk right there!!!

[K-Dog]

4 hours ago, Gtown Purple said:

My dad used to reward me with 7-11 pizza when I played a good game. Maybe try that?

Brian Regan agrees.

He says sno-cone though.

You can play half a game and still get a whole sno-cone.

 

https://youtu.be/prLLabn1vPA

 

[ALSKAN RAVEN FAN]

Points being left on the field stinks but not being able to move the ball a yard with 4 tries really STINKS!!! Thats embarrassing and I would hope the coach would let the team watch that a few times during film study and really let it sink in. FG's are not going to win the game for you if your swapping FG's for TD's but if you are not going to get into the endzone after 3 tries then take the FG on the 4th try and pull your team aside and ask them why they cant get the job done with three tries.

[ALSKAN RAVEN FAN]

The thing is people have been let go this year for not doing their job. The end of the 3rd quarter and begining of the 4th quarter the whole offense did not do their job...PERIOD!!!

[frozen joe flacco fan]

6 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Right and the latter is the biggest issue. 

No different than John accepting the penalty in the Raiders game instead of allowing them to kick a FG. He gives his defense a 3rd and 17 from like the 35 yard line. He's giving his defense an opportunity to make a play that will keep points off the scoreboard entirely. 

And what does the defense do? Give up a 16 pass, then jump offsides like 12 year olds on a hard count, then give up another like 20 yards for a TD. Hardly executing well wouldn't you say?

NO. I would say its poor coaching. I saw your earlier analysis that proved nothing. But then, you would probably line your high school soccer kicker up as a left-footed kicker like Harbaugh did to fool the Redskins. C'mon man!