Drafting "team" players vs drafting playmakers?

[RavensFan34950]

15 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

Moore has less catches and a few of those plays he's been schemed open and Perriman has gotten open, he had a few open looks vs the Raiders(he dropped one of them and the other was a bad throw, and the other was a good play). 

Moore's been used way less

[PurpleCity5]

15 minutes ago, RavensFan34950 said:

he's no Antonio Brown, but he's currently better than Perriman in that department.

He is but I really think Perriman is a better route runner than given credit for. He's further along than Torrey in that department IMO. Just don't think Moore's route running is great, I just think it's good at the moment. 

[JoeyFlex5]

46 minutes ago, RavensFan34950 said:

He's going to be a good player don't get me wrong, but Moore is a burner too. Along with his already impressive route running I just think his ceiling is higher. How tall is Moore?

but the thing is that route running can be learned, perrimans natural ability can not, so moore being a small fraction of the athletic specimen that perriman is but being a slightly sharper route runner wouldnt make his ceiling higher, the exact opposite actually. 

 

33 minutes ago, RavensFan34950 said:

Maybe I'm missing something. Tell me what I'm missing because through 5 games he only has 10 catches for 124 yards. Not once has he been open all season. I'm willing to give him a pass because he missed training camp and Trestman wasn't using him the way he should be used. But he really hasn't given Joe a reason to trust him. Neither has Moore, but he has been open more than Perriman has.

he has gotten open, and has also made tough catches, and all but 2 of his non catches were extremely well defended and one was a low percentage throw way down the field. all while being extremely misused and not getting a chance to find a rhythm because he hasnt had many snaps. you seem to be overrating moore and underrating perriman. moores routes are just average, perrimans are about even but also paired with exponentially better measurables that makes his average route running more serviceable. moore isnt exactly a burner either, hes got good speed but not great, and is skinny as a rail and will likely struggle with those tightly covered catches that perriman has managed to haul  in.

[flynismo]

Well, all I'm gonna say is, I'm going to start Perriman tomorrow in FF

[JoeyFlex5]

seems to me like you are confusing draft slot value with on-field production and just rooting for the underdog in moore. you want this late round guy to be a gem and youre still pissed that perriman hasnt lived up to his 26th overall draft slot so you really oversell moore when in reality he has done far less and shown far less potential than perriman, who has actually shown flashes of being the guy we want him to be he just needs to execute better and be more consistent, which we knew he was gonna have to develop anyway when we picked him.

[PurpleCity5]

2 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

but the thing is that route running can be learned, perrimans natural ability can not, so moore being a small fraction of the athletic specimen that perriman is but being a slightly sharper route runner wouldnt make his ceiling higher, the exact opposite actually. 

I agree, there's no way Moore has the higher ceiling. That notion is ridiculous considering Perriman's insane measurable and athleticism. If Perriman can improve on his route running, which seems very possible given that he's a smart player, than he can become a really good player for us.

[JoeyFlex5]

1 minute ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I agree, there's no way Moore has the higher ceiling. That notion is ridiculous considering Perriman's insane measurable and athleticism. If Perriman can improve on his route running, which seems very possible given that he's a smart player, than he can become a really good player for us.

perriman has one of the higher ceilings in the entire league among young wr's, the problem is that we knew he was an unfinished product coming out and now he has fell WAY behind for uncontrollable reasons. 

i mean did people really expect him to play lights out the first half of this year? cmon guys.. i wont be ready to write him off until late next season at the very earliest.

[PurpleCity5]

7 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

perriman has one of the higher ceilings in the entire league among young wr's, the problem is that we knew he was an unfinished product coming out and now he has fell WAY behind for uncontrollable reasons. 

i mean did people really expect him to play lights out the first half of this year? cmon guys.. i wont be ready to write him off until late next season at the very earliest.

People are running out of patience given the bad drops. It's understandable on both sets but still, did people expect him to go berserk and drop 250 Yards and 2 TDs? It's like jeez, a guy like Perriman who debuted in the final preseason game of the year can't get a damn pass for rust? 

[Ravensfan23]

in terms of Perriman and Moore. If everyone from fans to coaches to players feel that Trestman was using the offense all wrong, how can we make judgement on 2 rookies after only 5 games? I know there are things that you can still make judgement on, like Perriman looks hesitant and appears to be getting his legs under him after missing 2 full training camps. But who knows how tough that is for him? The light has to turn on for him, but you can clearly see why the Ravens are excited about him. 

Moore is a guy I think has surprised many. He appears a lot smoother than expected and appears to have the potential to be a really strong sidekick to Perriman as a #2 WR. But it's too early to tell especially if Marty is planning on using these guys to attack defenses down field more. 

If Marty is allowing these guys to stretch the field it'll mean much more space underneath for catch and run opportunities. I can't wait to see these two going forward. 

I'm also interesting in seeing Kenny Bell. He's another deep threat the Ravens may be able to use later down the road. He was decent as a returner at Nebraska but not sure the Ravens view him in that light, but if Hester doesn't work out maybe Bell gets a call up. If Marty runs a play action heavy passing attack I think Bell is a guy who could be a deep threat 1 trick pony type weapon

[CaliRavenFan]

Im just hoping we start using more 2 TE sets because we do have some playmakers there and can use them to help slow down the pass rush.

[PurpleHorseman]

  Ravens should use more 2TE sets. There really is no sure bet who the better WR will be. Perriman makes some extraordinary catches. But his route quickness and sharpness leaves something to be desired. Unless he is not completely up to speed. I know he ran a superhuman 4.25. And when Moore ran significantly quicker routes I thought it was an optical illusion. Perriman is a 4.25 playmaker.

  I thought the more I watched the more Perriman's speed would show up and eclipse Moore's. But it is quite the opposite. The more games played it is evident Moore is a quicker and sharper route runner. Significantly better at separating. Moore is capable of the spectacular catch himself. Tough call who the better WR will be. It would be great if both became #1 caliber WR's

Edited October 16, 2016 by PurpleHorseman

[Maryland]

I know I'm late to the conversation, but I want to give my 2 cents, even if just for myself. I'm going to try to avoid getting into a blame-based analysis here, but the reasons this team has struggled post-SB is because of 1) scouting/drafting, and 2) the allocation of cap space (ie: which players we've sign to big contracts). 

Regarding scouting, I sometimes wonder if the scouts forget to consider scheme/fit when evaluating a player. I look at John Simon (4th round pick) as the main example of this. It seemed like our coaching staff had no interest in using him on defense, yet after being cut in TC his 2nd year, he went on to be a solid contributor for the Texans as a depth OLB. Simon seemed like a tweener coming out of college, so maybe the coaching staff couldn't find a position for him. Arthur Brown would have been a much better fit as a Will LB on a 4-3 team, though a lack of instincts and inability to contribute on ST ultimately caused him to be inactive daily (he seems like a bust regardless of scheme). Keith Wenning had a noodle arm, which didn't fit an offense that attacks vertically. Upshaw was a poor fit, since Pees seemed to require a Sam LB who could drop into coverage. Elam was a SS who couldn't form-tackle. I'm starting to wonder if Correa will be a player without a true position on this defense, but it's waaay too early to make that call. In addition (and I think this is to your original point), our drafting seems to ignore the skill positions, namely WRs, DBs, and edge rushers. They've drafted heavily on interior DL, OL, and TE, but they've either ignored or missed on WRs, DBs, and edge-rushers (especially 5-tech DEs, but also rush LBs). They've spent a lot of picks on the RB position, but have little to show for it. 

In terms of drafting, as has been mentioned and accepted by most every Ravens fan, our scouts/management have not hit consistently on picks in rounds 1-3. I think 2010 is the first really bad draft we had in the Harbaugh/Flacco era, missing on two 2nd round picks (Kindle, Cody) and a 3rd round pick (Ed Dickson)--the only saving grace was getting two good starters in Arthur Jones and Pitta. 2011 yielded 3 good starters (Torrey, Jimmy, McPhee), but they missed badly on Jah Reid, a 3rd round pick. 2012 was underwhelming: some consider Upshaw a success, but 2-down LBs can be found as UDFAs; they wasted a high 2nd round pick on Upshaw as far as I'm concerned. They also missed on Bernard Pierce, a 3rd round pick, and Gradkowski, a high 4th. KO is the only really good pick from 2012. 2013 was really bad to start (Elam and Brown), but they still managed to get 3 starters. 2014 was pretty decent, only missed on Terrance Brooks among the early picks, but they managed to get 2 starters and 2 solid depth players. 2015 is not off to a good start, and I'll leave it at that. 2016 is already looking pretty good. To compensate, they've done well in later rounds. You should also consider the starting/depth UDFAs we've gotten over that time: Tucker, Michael Pierce, Orr, McClellan, Ellerbe, Jameel McClain... did above average there. 

A specific trend that has emerged in our scouting is in the southeastern area scouting. These struggles seemed to precipitate in 2008 when Joe Horitz was promoted from southeast area scout to Dir. of Player Personnel. I'm not sure who succeeded Horitz as the SE area scout, but Ian Cunningham was promoted to SE area scout in 2013. It's hard to know which schools count as being in the "southeast," but in that general area, we've drafted and missed or disappointed on the following players since 2008 (not including 7th rounders): Tavaris Gooden (3rd round, Miami), Davon Drew (5th, E.Carolina), Sergio Kindle (2nd, Texas), Terrance Cody (2nd, Bama), Jah Reid (3rd, UCF), Chykie Brown (5th, Texas), Courtney Upshaw (2nd, Bama), Christian Thompson (4th, S.Carolina St.), Tommy Streeter (6th, Miami), Matt Elam (1st, Florida), Aaron Melette (6th, Elon), Terrance Brooks (3rd, FSU), Lorenzo Taliaferro (4th, Co.Carolina), Robert Myers (5th, Tenn.St). (I'm leaving off some recent picks like Perriman because they jury is still out) Some of those players were pretty highly drafted, and when you look at our busts as a whole, it seems a larger % come from the southeast. During that same span, the players we've drafted from that region who are not busts are: Mosley, Jernigan, McPhee, and Oher (and some would consider him a disappointment as a 1st rounder). Seems like a low rate of success in the southeast. I imagine this is just the cost of everyone poaching our scouts--you inevitably promote someone who is unqualified eventually.

However, the area where our FO has struggled the most is in its allocation of cap space. A lot of this is bad luck, though some of it was unwise in context. Just off the top of my head: Webb, Pitta, Benjamin Watson, Jacoby Jones, Eugene Monroe, and Ray Rice did not live up to their contracts after signing (the Pitta one was unwise, the Rice an unforeseen event, and the rest due to unexpected injuries). It could be argued that Jimmy and Flacco are underpreforming their contracts. Justin Foresett only played last season under his extension, which is an underperformance imo. Billy Cundiff was cut 1 season after an extension, though he really only had one blunder of a kick to deserve the cut. Ngata was underperforming his contract until the year before he was traded. Fabian Washington and Foxworth were dumb FA signings. Especially over the past few seasons, we've had a lot of salary cap space allocated to people who were not performing for one reason or another. This really hurts your ability to compete in a salary-capped sport. The good news is that these contracts will hopefully be behind us soon enough, and the dead money not too painful moving forward.  

TLDR, what has hurt us the most is: 1) scouts drafting players who don't fit schematically, 2) scouting has missed in the mid rounds, 3) scouting is/was especially bad in the southeast region, and 4) poor allocation of cap space. Doubt anyone reads this book lol. 

Edited October 16, 2016 by Maryland

[JoeyFlex5]

12 minutes ago, Maryland said:

Upshaw was a poor fit, since Pees seemed to require a Sam LB who could drop into coverage.

upshaw was actually decent in coverage, and did a great job jamming TE's at the line and pushing screen passes to the sidelines, he had good instincts dropping into zone and he actually had some good lateral movement. his struggles came purely 100% from a lack of explosiveness, its sad really, if he was able to trim down to 265 and gain a faster first step he couldve been very good. 

upshaw didnt live up to the draft slot, i wasnt happy with the pick, but i was happy with the player. he was a very solid starter and contributor for us.

[Maryland]

5 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

upshaw was actually decent in coverage, and did a great job jamming TE's at the line and pushing screen passes to the sidelines, he had good instincts dropping into zone and he actually had some good lateral movement. his struggles came purely 100% from a lack of explosiveness, its sad really, if he was able to trim down to 265 and gain a faster first step he couldve been very good. 

upshaw didnt live up to the draft slot, i wasnt happy with the pick, but i was happy with the player. he was a very solid starter and contributor for us.

My memories of Upshaw dropping into coverage are defined by a sense of futility as RBs and TEs would simply run by him through his zone. He made a good play here and there, but generally not someone you want covering anybody. He should have just put on some weight and played on the DL, which is what he's doing now /w Atl. as a rotational DT. 

[JoeyFlex5]

25 minutes ago, Maryland said:

My memories of Upshaw dropping into coverage are defined by a sense of futility as RBs and TEs would simply run by him through his zone. He made a good play here and there, but generally not someone you want covering anybody. He should have just put on some weight and played on the DL, which is what he's doing now /w Atl. as a rotational DT. 

he sure as hell wasnt gonna be man covering anyone and he wasnt chasing people down, but when it came to zone drops he often found himself in the right place to influence the play, thats the kind of stuff that goes unnoticed. if he needed to cover a screen to a really fast RB or something he would be in trouble if he didnt have corner help. this was all a problem, but he did his job on zone drops more often than not. 

EDIT: i wanna throw in there that his final season with us was really bad and was the outlier. most of what im saying applies to his first 3 years, he regressed majorly in year 4 with the rest of the team.

Edited October 16, 2016 by JoeyFlex5

[Wildabeast88]

2 hours ago, Maryland said:

I know I'm late to the conversation, but I want to give my 2 cents, even if just for myself. I'm going to try to avoid getting into a blame-based analysis here, but the reasons this team has struggled post-SB is because of 1) scouting/drafting, and 2) the allocation of cap space (ie: which players we've sign to big contracts). 

Regarding scouting, I sometimes wonder if the scouts forget to consider scheme/fit when evaluating a player. I look at John Simon (4th round pick) as the main example of this. It seemed like our coaching staff had no interest in using him on defense, yet after being cut in TC his 2nd year, he went on to be a solid contributor for the Texans as a depth OLB. Simon seemed like a tweener coming out of college, so maybe the coaching staff couldn't find a position for him. Arthur Brown would have been a much better fit as a Will LB on a 4-3 team, though a lack of instincts and inability to contribute on ST ultimately caused him to be inactive daily (he seems like a bust regardless of scheme).

TLDR, what has hurt us the most is: 1) scouts drafting players who don't fit schematically, 2) scouting has missed in the mid rounds, 3) scouting is/was especially bad in the southeast region, and 4) poor allocation of cap space. Doubt anyone reads this book lol. 

Yes we have missed in the 2nd and 3rd but so do all teams at some point. I agree about the scheme/fit can be a problem for sure and that has probably caused some of these misses. Also 2013 misses were a result of oh crap Ray and Ed are leaving and us overreacting  which I too was guilty of we need a S and LB so we went rounds 1&2 instead of possibly waiting. But to disagree with the entire scouting deal with the UDFA's gems we find scouting can't be all bad but I agree it seems like the southeast schools that you listed looks pretty bad however, Pierce and LT showed promise until injuries got them. The contract cap situation some players dropped off pretty quickly some underperformed and some was bad luck. Monroe was healthy big money then he's always hurt, Ngata stunk for a couple of years until his final year, and some like Pitta after being hurt was probably not smart 

[rmcjacket23]

So here are my issues...

1. If we're going to play the "we've had bad drafts compared to our peers" card, then shouldn't it be easy to provide examples of that? What teams specifically have had great drafts in the last five years AND who are those players?

Hint: my guess is that you will find a common denominator among the teams you are about to list.

2. How many "playmakers" should a single draft yield? To be honest, I bet if you asked most teams, you'd find the answer to be somewhere around 1. 1 "playmaker" per draft.

If you find two in a draft, its pretty much a slam dunk great draft, regardless of what else happens. Most teams are looking for one great player and maybe 2-3 other decent to quality starters. If you look at some (not all) of our recent drafts, we've been close to this.

The main issue here is the number of high picks that have been "busts". When you're first or second round pick doesn't pan out, it makes the draft class look that much worse.

Nobody cares if you're first round pick is a stud but your 5th-7th round picks suck.

 

[BmoreBird22]

8 hours ago, RavensFan34950 said:

He's going to be a good player don't get me wrong, but Moore is a burner too. Along with his already impressive route running I just think his ceiling is higher. How tall is Moore?

I wouldn't describe Moore as a burner. He's more like VJax in that he's not fast, but he just kinda knows how to get open at the top of a route.

If he's going to be better, he's got major work to do with his tracking and catching. 

He is also listed at 6'1"

[BmoreBird22]

4 hours ago, Maryland said:

Regarding scouting, I sometimes wonder if the scouts forget to consider scheme/fit when evaluating a player. I look at John Simon (4th round pick) as the main example of this. It seemed like our coaching staff had no interest in using him on defense, yet after being cut in TC his 2nd year, he went on to be a solid contributor for the Texans as a depth OLB. Simon seemed like a tweener coming out of college, so maybe the coaching staff couldn't find a position for him. Arthur Brown would have been a much better fit as a Will LB on a 4-3 team, though a lack of instincts and inability to contribute on ST ultimately caused him to be inactive daily (he seems like a bust regardless of scheme). Keith Wenning had a noodle arm, which didn't fit an offense that attacks vertically. Upshaw was a poor fit, since Pees seemed to require a Sam LB who could drop into coverage. Elam was a SS who couldn't form-tackle. I'm starting to wonder if Correa will be a player without a true position on this defense, but it's waaay too early to make that call. In addition (and I think this is to your original point), our drafting seems to ignore the skill positions, namely WRs, DBs, and edge rushers. They've drafted heavily on interior DL, OL, and TE, but they've either ignored or missed on WRs, DBs, and edge-rushers (especially 5-tech DEs, but also rush LBs). They've spent a lot of picks on the RB position, but have little to show for it. 

Just want to throw out two things.

1. On John Simon, purely a numbers game. He was never going to see the field with Upshaw, Doom, McPhee, and Suggs as your core OLB's and McClellan is a way better STer. The only way he makes the roster is if he's a sixth OLB, which isn't going to happen. I don't think it's that the Ravens didn't like him; it's purely a numbers game. It sucks he got sniped of the PS, but I'm sure they would have liked to have kept him.

2. Here is a quote from a recent Matt Miller scouting notebook that I really agree with.

8. Albert Breer of MMQB had an excellent piece on Atlanta Falcons offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan this week. The entire story is worth a read, but this one quote stands out as far as scouting, team building and coaching are concerned: "People talk about players fitting a system—that's overrated. Good players fit everyone's system."

A trend in draft analysis is to look at which players fit which system—"Who is a good fit for Chip Kelly's offense?" is a common question—instead of looking at the best traits and realizing good players transcend scheme. Antonio Brown and Julio Jones are great receivers no matter the offense you put them in. Von Miller is going to wreck offenses no matter the pass-rush scheme.

Shanahan nails it with this quote, which is a bit surprising given he molded his entire system in Washington, D.C., around rookie quarterback Robert Griffin III when they were together—which might tell you what he thought of Griffin as a "good" player.

[kpfeiffe]

14 hours ago, flynismo said:

We have two players left from the 10 - 11 drafts (Jimmy and Pitta) not one, and that's only because Kindle retired, Tyrod, Torrey, McPhee, and A Jones left via FA. That doesn't negate the fact we drafted VERY well those years.

2012 got us one of the best OG in the game and a solid player in Upshaw.

2013 is hardly busty when it got us one of the best up and coming DTs in the league, a solid starting RT in Wagner, and Juice.

2014 yeah I'd say we did okay getting CJ, Jernigan and Crocket.

2015 too early to say

2016 see above

 

So now that we've established that we're drafting as well as we ever have....what's the question again?

You didn't establish anything. None of the above listed guys are game breakers with the exception of Osemele who is a premier guard. There are some solid players , yes but where are the stars? Where's the Antonio Brown? Where's the game breaking running back? Where's the shutdown corner? Who inspires fear and intimidation on defense? Who is the star player on this team? Who is the big name talent? The one that the Ravens can build marketing campaigns around? There isn't one. There are no guys you can look at and say "when the game is on the line, we can look to this guy to make a play and save the day"

We are drafting some solid guys, but we aren't getting playmakers. 

[Virginia 55]

17 hours ago, Sami84 said:

we've been one of the worst drafting teams in over 8 years. The fact that this conversation is coming up time and time again proves it. 

I agree. The only picks that I'm high on are Williams, Mosley, Stanley, Dixon, Young, Jernigan.  

 

Why in the world did we draft Correa?  What a waste. This guy can't even get on the field.  

Edited October 16, 2016 by Virginia 55

[AppStRavenfan]

I'd say if you think we're one of the worst drafters in the league then the problem isn't Ozzie/DeCosta's drafting abilities its that you have unreal expectations for what one team gets out of the draft. No team ever hits on every pick, most are lucky to hit on one or two, we've consistently hit on 3 or more per draft for years. If you're expecting a game breaker every draft then you're going to be disappointed regardless of who we've got making the picks, sorry to burst your bubble. Our FO looks to take solid contributors because they understand the concept that it takes a team to win it all, having one or two superstars and rest garbage players might make for some fun gamedays but that doesn't translate to consistent wins. I know some fans have ridiculous expectations for the draft but Ozzie/DeCosta are as good as you're going to get in a league where many teams don't have a competent GM at all. And even after the draft Ozzie has a record of hitting on at least one UDFA, which is way more than most teams can say. Sure Ozzie doesn't make splash FA acquisitions and he draws his line in the sand when it comes to re-signing guys which results in most leaving for more money, but he's been right on those FAs more often than not. "Superteams" rarely work out and many of our former players, not all, have been big disappointments in their new homes.

[January J]

31 minutes ago, Virginia 55 said:

I agree. The only picks that I'm high on are Williams, Mosley, Stanley, Dixon, Young, Jernigan.  

 

Why in the world did we draft Correa?  What a waste. This guy can't even get on the field.  

A little premature to be writing off Correa don't you think?  Most 2nd rounders don't light it up their first year. Give it some time and you may end up pleasantly surprised.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

17 hours ago, mmcclend said:

There's uproar every single time we lose a productive starter. So you're going to compare reed in his last leg to somebody getting their second contract?  You're reaching for your point. lol he's a hall of famer and most likely a big reason you're even a fan. He went to Houston and the jets to collect a check. Why are you acting like I'm saying we haven't drafted any starters? Lol. Again man, we aren't drafting many PLAYMAKERS PLAYMAKERS PLAYMAKERS!!! Name the PLAYMAKERS on our team that WE'VE drafted. 

Mosley, Orr, Tavon, Webb, Suggs, Jernigan, BWill, Urban, Levine, Yanda, Juice, Pitta, Perriman, Buck, Flacco. 

Doesnt include playmakers we've drafted and lost like McPhee, Jones, Kruger, KO, etc...

I mean it's a tough conversation to have bc "playmaker" is such a subjective term. I mean do you quite literally mean the guys who routinely make plays?

If so, BWill is def a playmaker. Is blowing an entire run play up by yourself (routinely) not making a play?

Sacks, hits and hurries are some of the biggest, game changing plays you can make. By that measure, rotational or not shouldn't matter (I think most viewed Doom as a playmaker) and bc of that guys like Kruger, Jones, McPhee, Jernigan, Pierce now, Judon, etc... either were or currently are playmakers. They're making/made game altering plays when they were in fairly regularly. 

Young has already made 2-3 game changing plays. Levine was the definition of playmaker earlier this year. And that's the thing, gamebreaking type playmaking isn't a consistent business. Guys who are playmakers one year, often don't seem like it once given a starting role or once teams become wise to their skill set. Just a nature of the beast. 

Juice makes plays. Gillmore and Pitta make game saving, drive saving plays. 

Joe's got how many 4th qtr, game winning drives? That's a playmaker. 

Urbans blocked how many kicks and passes in very limited time? How's that not being a playmaker? Dudes saved like 3 games singlehandedly.

Playmaking isn't a consistent business at all. A lot is dependent on opportunity. A lot is happenstance. A lot is talent and skill. 

So idk if playmakers is even the best, or a good measure of how you're doing as a GM. Yea you need them, but without the other 21 guys setting the table, playing consistent, fundamental football then there aren't plays to be made - or the ones they are don't impact wins.

What happens to guys when they leave us isn't a valid argument either. If they were playmakers while here, and were not giving them the second contract why the hell would it matter what they're doing after the fact? 

 

Go back and look at drafts from '96-'08. They weren't too much different most of the time. The only real difference in our recent drafts is we haven't found a Ray Lewis, Ogden or Reed. While we had those guys, drafts where we got 3 starters just looked a lot better - well because everyone looked better next to Ray and Ed. Shoot JJ was a hero here for years. He was beloved. He played alongside Ray and Ed. Upshaw who was pretty similar was scorned and run out of town. See the difference in expectations?

Edited October 16, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[MTRavensFan]

52 minutes ago, kpfeiffe said:

You didn't establish anything. None of the above listed guys are game breakers with the exception of Osemele who is a premier guard. There are some solid players , yes but where are the stars? Where's the Antonio Brown? Where's the game breaking running back? Where's the shutdown corner? Who inspires fear and intimidation on defense? Who is the star player on this team? Who is the big name talent? The one that the Ravens can build marketing campaigns around? There isn't one. There are no guys you can look at and say "when the game is on the line, we can look to this guy to make a play and save the day"

We are drafting some solid guys, but we aren't getting playmakers. 

If you don't think Pitta's a game-breaker, you must have missed the SB run. As for star RB's,  we drafted one in 2008, and maybe another in 2016 - give it time. We probably would have taken West in 2014 as well,  if he hadn't been snatched up a few spots before us. I'd call Gillmore a playmaker, too, the way he fights for YAC.

Honestly, most "playmakers" don't become so their rookie year. The draft is somewhat of a crapshoot.

Keenan Reynolds is the definition of playmaker, kind of defeats your argument. He's still on the PS. 

[Ravensfan23]

6 hours ago, Maryland said:

I know I'm late to the conversation, but I want to give my 2 cents, even if just for myself. I'm going to try to avoid getting into a blame-based analysis here, but the reasons this team has struggled post-SB is because of 1) scouting/drafting, and 2) the allocation of cap space (ie: which players we've sign to big contracts). 

Regarding scouting, I sometimes wonder if the scouts forget to consider scheme/fit when evaluating a player. I look at John Simon (4th round pick) as the main example of this. It seemed like our coaching staff had no interest in using him on defense, yet after being cut in TC his 2nd year, he went on to be a solid contributor for the Texans as a depth OLB. Simon seemed like a tweener coming out of college, so maybe the coaching staff couldn't find a position for him. 

In terms of drafting, as has been mentioned and accepted by most every Ravens fan, our scouts/management have not hit consistently on picks in rounds 1-3.  

 TLDR, what has hurt us the most is: 1) scouts drafting players who don't fit schematically, 2) scouting has missed in the mid rounds, 3) scouting is/was especially bad in the southeast region, and 4) poor allocation of cap space. Doubt anyone reads this book lol. 

Great post, definitely worth the 2 cents. 

I agree with most if not all. What I will say about scouting players to fit scheme, I've often wondered that but not really on the defensive side of the ball. In most cases with those guys, just like Simon, Kruger and others it comes down to ST play. We are handicapped in that sense because Harbs is a ST guy, but holding those guys to a high standard usually has the Ravens ST as one of the best in the NFL so can't complain about that. But sub guys must be good on ST. It sucks but without Doom's injury Judon probably wouldn't be playing if he didn't improve his ST play. KC will probably have a larger role on defense today, but Harbs said ST is his focus. That's just how it is with those guys on defense, they better have a ST role if they are backups. Now on offense, it's the same in many cases, but I think it was poor coaching that led to poor scheme and fit. I was a big David Reed fan, not because I thought he was this awesome player, but because I thought he was a really good return guy and if given a chance to work in space offensively he could have really been dynamic. However Cam wasn't interested in getting guys in space and allowing them to work. If you weren't a superior route runner like DMase or a guy who could just out muscle defenders even if not open than he really didn't use you well. I don't even think guys like Torrey was used properly and allowed to develop. For years the offense just seemed to be focused on a strong run game and a passing game who could chip in. 

In the case of missing so often in rounds 1-3 I think that maybe the Ravens becoming prisoners of their own success. The Ravens are more likely to trade back and select a player who they think may be slightly below the top player sitting there because they feel they'll hit on the later round pick that'll come with the package deal. I look at the 2010 draft. In both the 1st and 2nd rounds, the Ravens waited to see if the trouble WR Dez Bryant would fall to them and he was selected one spot before in the 1st round. Then they waited to see if the monster TE Gronk with back issues would fall to them at the top of the 2nd and he was selected one spot before. In both cases the Ravens could have aggressively moved up to grab these players just like they did with Ngata in 2006. However because they have been so successful hitting on later round picks, they(in their minds) can afford to wait to see if players will fall to them instead of aggressively attacking those players. While as a fan it can be frustrating, especially when the team isn't winning, it's also hard to argue with the success that strategy has had. We look at the 2013 draft as a bad one because of Elam and Brown, but that draft produced 3 starters and 2 backup guys. That's a pretty good draft in most cases but when you miss in rounds 1 and 2 it's tough to call that draft a success in fans eyes. The Ravens place a ton of value on the back end of the draft and sometimes that leads to them coming up short on the front end. 

I agree that the argument of guys not going to other teams and failing isn't a good one. Justin Forsett had a pro bowl season in a system that fit him, but once Kubes left that system no longer fit his skill set. He could go to the Lions and have a really good year, where he looked old and slow with us. Scheme fit means a lot.

 

[OUravensfan]

7 hours ago, Maryland said:

My memories of Upshaw dropping into coverage are defined by a sense of futility as RBs and TEs would simply run by him through his zone. He made a good play here and there, but generally not someone you want covering anybody. He should have just put on some weight and played on the DL, which is what he's doing now /w Atl. as a rotational DT. 

And I'll love him forever for forcing that fumble in the Super Bowl

[mmcclend]

2 hours ago, kpfeiffe said:

You didn't establish anything. None of the above listed guys are game breakers with the exception of Osemele who is a premier guard. There are some solid players , yes but where are the stars? Where's the Antonio Brown? Where's the game breaking running back? Where's the shutdown corner? Who inspires fear and intimidation on defense? Who is the star player on this team? Who is the big name talent? The one that the Ravens can build marketing campaigns around? There isn't one. There are no guys you can look at and say "when the game is on the line, we can look to this guy to make a play and save the day"

We are drafting some solid guys, but we aren't getting playmakers. 

THANK YOU BRO! Finally another objective Ravens fan who isn't drunk off that purple coolaid. Everybody is like oh Dixon will be a star and so will perriman and Moore. They're all playmakers. As of right now they haven't proved anything. Everybody is just overly optimistic just because they're Ravens. And when people like us tell the truth everybody pounces like it's a lie lol. 

Edited October 16, 2016 by mmcclend

[mmcclend]

52 minutes ago, MTRavensFan said:

If you don't think Pitta's a game-breaker, you must have missed the SB run. As for star RB's,  we drafted one in 2008, and maybe another in 2016 - give it time. We probably would have taken West in 2014 as well,  if he hadn't been snatched up a few spots before us. I'd call Gillmore a playmaker, too, the way he fights for YAC.

Honestly, most "playmakers" don't become so their rookie year. The draft is somewhat of a crapshoot.

Keenan Reynolds is the definition of playmaker, kind of defeats your argument. He's still on the PS. 

You just called somebody who has never played in a regular season a playmaker. I reaLly don't understand this forum.. Reynolds will be out of the league in a few years, book it. One of our worst picks ever. Gilmore a playmaker, seriously? He's an average tight end, if that. Pitta is a playmaker but I said that in my original post. I swear man some of the players y'all are calling playmakers you wouldn't even know their name if they were on other teams. 

[codizzle]

They're expecting us to draft superstars every year cause that's what most teams do right? 

 

love it