Drafting "team" players vs drafting playmakers?

[RavensFan34950]

13 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

I agree. Harbs gets players to play well but at the end of the day the players are the ones playing.  And at skill positions, we lack playmakers across the board. 

We do lack playmakers, but mainly on offense. This season the defense is keeping us in games by making plays. Mainly the young players, Young, Mosley, Jernigan, Weddle are all making plays this season bro. But it's the offense who is killing the team. So I can only agree with you half way. 

[mmcclend]

9 minutes ago, RavensFan34950 said:

We do lack playmakers, but mainly on offense. This season the defense is keeping us in games by making plays. Mainly the young players, Young, Mosley, Jernigan, Weddle are all making plays this season bro. But it's the offense who is killing the team. So I can only agree with you half way. 

Fair enough and an excellent point. We are all fans trying to figure some of this frustrating crap out lol. Our D is carrying us. On offense, we do lack explosive players. I really hope perriman will be and honestly he looks like he will be very solid in 2 years. Other than he and Pitta and Stanley we haven't drafted well on offense. To be honest, trestman wasn't good for us but I'm not sure Marty can change much. Our oline is in shambles. 

Edited October 16, 2016 by mmcclend

[RavensFan34950]

28 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

I agree. Harbs gets players to play well but at the end of the day the players are the ones playing.  And at skill positions, we lack playmakers across the board. 

I still believe Chris Moore will be better than Perriman in the future. But yea, Trestman was horrible. Hopefully now  we give our receivers a chance to actually make play's. No more of this 5 yard bs, we have speedsters now lets use them.

[mmcclend]

Just now, RavensFan34950 said:

I still believe Chris Moore will be better than Perriman in the future. But yea, Trestman was horrible. Hopefully now  we give our receivers a chance to actually make play's. No more of this 5 yard bs, we have speedsters now lets use them.

Agreed, he just needs to stay focused and catch the rock. He's got talent, no doubt. I like him as a player and hopefully one of the two will pan out. Every time perriman falls I still cringe.

[JoeyFlex5]

3 minutes ago, RavensFan34950 said:

I still believe Chris Moore will be better than Perriman in the future. But yea, Trestman was horrible. Hopefully now  we give our receivers a chance to actually make play's. No more of this 5 yard bs, we have speedsters now lets use them.

not challenging your opinion here.. just wondering what makes you think that?

[The Raven]

2 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

not challenging your opinion here.. just wondering what makes you think that?

I want to jump in and kind of agree. I think so far Moore has shown a better feel for getting open. His route running and body control look better than Perriman's right now. I could be wrong, but year. That's my take.

[mmcclend]

3 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

not challenging your opinion here.. just wondering what makes you think that?

Because somebody on this board said he'd be our Antonio brown. Lol. We just need one of them to ball out for us. If they both do, major win. 

[RavensFan34950]

10 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

not challenging your opinion here.. just wondering what makes you think that?

He's already a better route runner. He had no problem getting open, it's just catching the ball. He doesn't seem like the type who gets scared of the moment, so he will only get better. Perriman seems a little timid to me, but thats just my opinion.

[mmcclend]

Just now, RavensFan34950 said:

He's already a better route runner. He had no problem getting open, it's just catching the ball. He doesn't seem like the type who gets scared of the moment, so he will only get better. Perriman seems a little timid to me, but thats just my opinion.

He's had alligator arms forsure at times. They need to grown up fast with SSS hurt and kamar invisible. 

[flynismo]

2 hours ago, The Raven said:

And what I said challenges your thesis, which is why the Patriots are still relevant to the discussion. 

FWIW, I didn't even read through most of this; I brought the Pats up on my own volition because of their reputation and that I think they're a good example to demonstrate we do quite well in comparison...

[The Raven]

2 minutes ago, flynismo said:

FWIW, I didn't even read through most of this; I brought the Pats up on my own volition because of their reputation and that I think they're a good example to demonstrate we do quite well in comparison...

Same reason I picked them.  Great minds, eh?

[flynismo]

2 hours ago, mmcclend said:

Great points. The question was do we go after playmakers in the draft or go for players who fit the raven way? I know we are wayyyy off thanks to the raven. My point is we lack drafted playmakers(specifically at skill positions). What I mean by a playmaker is somebody who constantly wins one on one battles, comes through in the clutch, teams fear.  Who on the Ravens do does anybody fear? Who have we drafted that you know is going to win their matchup week after week? Cj, and yanda. I agree with you that we've had some nice role players. But we've gotten caught up in quantity over quality. Can you admit that?

I agree to an extent; although I'd also say that it wasn't by design, just how things worked out.

Obviously we should be targeting "playmakers" by your definition. But whether or not a player turns into said playmaker in large part will rely on whether he fits onto the team/scheme. That's mainly why I dragged the Pats into the conversation...they generally target smart, technically sound players, and their systems will take care of the rest. A great system will make nearly any player look better than they are, if they fit in.

Edited October 16, 2016 by flynismo

[BmoreBird22]

I think with Perriman, he'll turn out to be better than Moore. Coming out, we knew Moore was a pretty underrated route runner who would know how to get open deep, but I haven't really seen great ball tracking skills or the great body control that a few posters above said.

With Perriman, I think we have seen pretty damn good body control (I chalk the foot up to awareness and needing to knock rust off) and the propensity to make insane catches. Moore is out there dropping catches and not really making those wow catches. Perriman is making the crazy catches and showing some great potential.

I think once Perriman gets down the smaller details, like route running, he'll be an excellent receiver.

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, The Raven said:

I want to jump in and kind of agree. I think so far Moore has shown a better feel for getting open. His route running and body control look better than Perriman's right now. I could be wrong, but year. That's my take.

his body control isnt even close. ill agree on getting open, but its also hard to tell when perriman was only targeted deep 4 times, twice against haden and twice against norman, and got open on one and timed his hands wrong and on the other he made an absolutely spectacular catch in tight coverage but was 1 inch out of bounds. and being essentially a rookie who hasnt had an offseason yet and had his first real practice in week 4 of the preseason, a lot is going against him. moore at least got a full offseason program with the ravens, perriman hasnt had that yet. 

you can say one player is more refined and all that, but you cant just discount natural ability, perriman has tools that moore doesnt have and he has been very close to executing some really spectacular plays with those tools. their failure rates have been just about even, so its not really fair to say moore is better when perriman has flashed some really great potential. if perriman gets those little pieces of timing down and gets that inch or two of extension or foot placement then this conversation isnt even happening and everyone is on the BP bandwagon. 

i sort of understand why people may think moore has looked better, but a little more context is deserved. moore did very little in his active snaps and perriman has not only produced more but he has flashed much more while just slightly failing to execute.

[RavensFan34950]

15 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I think with Perriman, he'll turn out to be better than Moore. Coming out, we knew Moore was a pretty underrated route runner who would know how to get open deep, but I haven't really seen great ball tracking skills or the great body control that a few posters above said.

With Perriman, I think we have seen pretty damn good body control (I chalk the foot up to awareness and needing to knock rust off) and the propensity to make insane catches. Moore is out there dropping catches and not really making those wow catches. Perriman is making the crazy catches and showing some great potential.

I think once Perriman gets down the smaller details, like route running, he'll be an excellent receiver.

Perriman has only made 1 great catch all season. It all the other catches he made he really struggles to hold on to them. Here's what I see from Perriman. He has a better chance of catching a wild throw that he has to stretch our for and risk a big hit, than he does if you hit him right in the numbers. It sounds crazy I know, but it doesn't seem like catching comes naturally to him.

[RavensFan34950]

20 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

his body control isnt even close. ill agree on getting open, but its also hard to tell when perriman was only targeted deep 4 times, twice against haden and twice against norman, and got open on one and timed his hands wrong and on the other he made an absolutely spectacular catch in tight coverage but was 1 inch out of bounds. and being essentially a rookie who hasnt had an offseason yet and had his first real practice in week 4 of the preseason, a lot is going against him. moore at least got a full offseason program with the ravens, perriman hasnt had that yet. 

you can say one player is more refined and all that, but you cant just discount natural ability, perriman has tools that moore doesnt have and he has been very close to executing some really spectacular plays with those tools. their failure rates have been just about even, so its not really fair to say moore is better when perriman has flashed some really great potential. if perriman gets those little pieces of timing down and gets that inch or two of extension or foot placement then this conversation isnt even happening and everyone is on the BP bandwagon. 

i sort of understand why people may think moore has looked better, but a little more context is deserved. moore did very little in his active snaps and perriman has not only produced more but he has flashed much more while just slightly failing to execute.

I don't think Perriman has produced at all man. I'm not saying he is going to be a bust, I think he will be very good. But if you can't get open or catch the ball, thats a problem. At least with moore I've seen him run in and outs. I've seen him get open deep. Can't say the same for Perriman.

[BmoreBird22]

15 minutes ago, RavensFan34950 said:

Perriman has only made 1 great catch all season. It all the other catches he made he really struggles to hold on to them. Here's what I see from Perriman. He has a better chance of catching a wild throw that he has to stretch our for and risk a big hit, than he does if you hit him right in the numbers. It sounds crazy I know, but it doesn't seem like catching comes naturally to him.

While it may not have gone down in the books as a catch, the almost catch against Norman isn't one any other Ravens receiver makes. 

Insane catch against Gilmore.

I don't have all of his plays, but he's made some very good outside the frame catches. He just seems to lose concentration on the easy ones.

He's had a lot of wow plays that I think very few Ravens receivers make.

And as far as getting hit in the numbers as he is catching the ball, that's not an uncommon drop...

[mmcclend]

8 minutes ago, RavensFan34950 said:

I don't think Perriman has produced at all man. I'm not saying he is going to be a bust, I think he will be very good. But if you can't get open or catch the ball, thats a problem. At least with moore I've seen him run in and outs. I've seen him get open deep. Can't say the same for Perriman.

Perriman by far has more physical tools but Moore is more polished and has better route running ability. I wonder how Jeremy butler would have done for us. 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

26 minutes ago, RavensFan34950 said:

Perriman has only made 1 great catch all season. It all the other catches he made he really struggles to hold on to them. Here's what I see from Perriman. He has a better chance of catching a wild throw that he has to stretch our for and risk a big hit, than he does if you hit him right in the numbers. It sounds crazy I know, but it doesn't seem like catching comes naturally to him.

 

2. He had a great catch against Norman in tight coverage on the play Norman got hurt. That's a catch a #1 WR makes.

 

Moore is a tad more polished but Perriman's natural ability is off the charts and he's showcased better hands in my opinion. Perriman ran a pretty good route during of his receptions week 2. Without a training camp and much practice, he's actually doing better than I anticipated. In his case I honestly think he's going to have a game/moment where the stars align and we see the beast he potentially could be. He's got all the tools a #1 should have, strong hands when he's concentrating, blazing speed, great body control, big frame. He can make the tough catches. 

 

I'm growing to like Moore as well, but I think Breshad has got a higher ceiling. 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

16 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

While it may not have gone down in the books as a catch, the almost catch against Norman isn't one any other Ravens receiver makes. 

Insane catch against Gilmore.

I don't have all of his plays, but he's made some very good outside the frame catches. He just seems to lose concentration on the easy ones.

He's had a lot of wow plays that I think very few Ravens receivers make.

And as far as getting hit in the numbers as he is catching the ball, that's not an uncommon drop...

 

I think some of it for him is that's he's been grossly misused at times. That play vs Gilmore was a deep bomb and great coverage, send the guy deep more and force the defenses to respect his speed. Could potentially open up the middle as well. 

[RavensFan34950]

16 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

While it may not have gone down in the books as a catch, the almost catch against Norman isn't one any other Ravens receiver makes. 

Insane catch against Gilmore.

I don't have all of his plays, but he's made some very good outside the frame catches. He just seems to lose concentration on the easy ones.

He's had a lot of wow plays that I think very few Ravens receivers make.

And as far as getting hit in the numbers as he is catching the ball, that's not an uncommon drop...

He's going to be a good player don't get me wrong, but Moore is a burner too. Along with his already impressive route running I just think his ceiling is higher. How tall is Moore?

[PurpleCity5]

43 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I think with Perriman, he'll turn out to be better than Moore. Coming out, we knew Moore was a pretty underrated route runner who would know how to get open deep, but I haven't really seen great ball tracking skills or the great body control that a few posters above said.

With Perriman, I think we have seen pretty damn good body control (I chalk the foot up to awareness and needing to knock rust off) and the propensity to make insane catches. Moore is out there dropping catches and not really making those wow catches. Perriman is making the crazy catches and showing some great potential.

I think once Perriman gets down the smaller details, like route running, he'll be an excellent receiver.

I agree, I know patience is wearing thin on Perriman with those error drops but I think we have to remember that he's a guy who still knocking off rust. I personally believe that there's a lot to be desired in Perriman and that's fine. In terms of route running, its a good sign to see him contribute in short/intermediate passing game, I think he's a better route runner than given credit for. He's a guy who can at least run the full route tree. I personally think he's further along than Torrey and he's a smart player too, that's one thing I've read about him is how smart of a player he is. Apparently He got the playbook down very quickly and had no trouble learning the offense his first year. 

I think if he were a vet, he would have made that TD catch against the Redskins.

As far as Moore goes, it's pretty confusing to see with what he's struggling with right now. Over the shoulder catches and extended catches didn't pop up as a problem for me, neither did finding the ball/tracking. I think it's the jitters for Moore. Of course he has much to work on but the things he's struggling with right now were not much of a concern while he was in college. I think he deserves another shot IMO. I hope he's active this week. 

[PurpleCity5]

2 minutes ago, RavensFan34950 said:

He's going to be a good player don't get me wrong, but Moore is a burner too. Along with his already impressive route running I just think his ceiling is higher. How tall is Moore?

I don't know if Moore's route running is cracked up to be. Don't get me wrong he's fine there but in College he didn't run the full route tree often and in the NFL some of his routes are not very sharp. His hips aren't flexible either and that's a route running issue considering that he did very well in the 3-cone in the combine. I personally think it might be that he just doesn't cut that well, it could be an issue that can be fixed within a year and we could see him as a great route runner. I'm not saying he's bad there, it's a strength of his but there's plenty to still be desired in terms of his route running. 

[RavensFan34950]

8 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

2. He had a great catch against Norman in tight coverage on the play Norman got hurt. That's a catch a #1 WR makes.

 

Moore is a tad more polished but Perriman's natural ability is off the charts and he's showcased better hands in my opinion. Perriman ran a pretty good route during of his receptions week 2. Without a training camp and much practice, he's actually doing better than I anticipated. In his case I honestly think he's going to have a game/moment where the stars align and we see the beast he potentially could be. He's got all the tools a #1 should have, strong hands when he's concentrating, blazing speed, great body control, big frame. He can make the tough catches. 

 

I'm growing to like Moore as well, but I think Breshad has got a higher ceiling. 

I think Moore is just as naturally gifted as Brashad honestly. Like I said before, he's a burner like Perriman. He's already better than Perriman at route running. To me the only thing Brashad has on Moore is his height and his body control. I must admit I forgot about his catch against Norman across the middle though. That was a nice ajustment to the ball.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Just now, RavensFan34950 said:

I think Moore is just as naturally gifted as Brashad honestly. Like I said before, he's a burner like Perriman. He's already better than Perriman at route running. To me the only thing Brashad has on Moore is his height and his body control. I must admit I forgot about his catch against Norman across the middle though. That was a nice ajustment to the ball.

 

I don't think so. Moore's college tape wasn't exactly my favorite. He's a more polished route runner than we give him credit for but I haven't seen him snag the tougher catches. I feel as if Moore is only going to be a #2 at best(which is better than I gave him credit for) but his money comes from being a deep threat. I honestly think Perriman could grow to be a safety net type player if he continues developing.

 

And that catch vs Norman is one a #1 WR makes. I don't think Moore could do that

[JoeyFlex5]

16 minutes ago, RavensFan34950 said:

I don't think Perriman has produced at all man. I'm not saying he is going to be a bust, I think he will be very good. But if you can't get open or catch the ball, thats a problem. At least with moore I've seen him run in and outs. I've seen him get open deep. Can't say the same for Perriman.

he has produced though.

[RavensFan34950]

2 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

he has produced though.

Maybe I'm missing something. Tell me what I'm missing because through 5 games he only has 10 catches for 124 yards. Not once has he been open all season. I'm willing to give him a pass because he missed training camp and Trestman wasn't using him the way he should be used. But he really hasn't given Joe a reason to trust him. Neither has Moore, but he has been open more than Perriman has.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

1 minute ago, RavensFan34950 said:

Maybe I'm missing something. Tell me what I'm missing because through 5 games he only has 10 catches for 124 yards. Not once has he been open all season. I'm willing to give him a pass because he missed training camp and Trestman wasn't using him the way he should be used. But he really hasn't given Joe a reason to trust him. Neither has Moore, but he has been open more than Perriman has.

 

Moore has less catches and a few of those plays he's been schemed open and Perriman has gotten open, he had a few open looks vs the Raiders(he dropped one of them and the other was a bad throw, and the other was a good play). 

[RavensFan34950]

14 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I don't know if Moore's route running is cracked up to be. Don't get me wrong he's fine there but in College he didn't run the full route tree often and in the NFL some of his routes are not very sharp. His hips aren't flexible either and that's a route running issue considering that he did very well in the 3-cone in the combine. I personally think it might be that he just doesn't cut that well, it could be an issue that can be fixed within a year and we could see him as a great route runner. I'm not saying he's bad there, it's a strength of his but there's plenty to still be desired in terms of his route running. 

he's no Antonio Brown, but he's currently better than Perriman in that department.

[OUravensfan]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I think with Perriman, he'll turn out to be better than Moore. Coming out, we knew Moore was a pretty underrated route runner who would know how to get open deep, but I haven't really seen great ball tracking skills or the great body control that a few posters above said.

With Perriman, I think we have seen pretty damn good body control (I chalk the foot up to awareness and needing to knock rust off) and the propensity to make insane catches. Moore is out there dropping catches and not really making those wow catches. Perriman is making the crazy catches and showing some great potential.

I think once Perriman gets down the smaller details, like route running, he'll be an excellent receiver.

I agree,Moore has way worse drops than Perriman so far with no catches as impressive as Perriman's, each of Perriman's have had a defender draped on him, Moore's are inexcusable.

Hopefully this debate becomes more about whose doing better things, not whose mistakes are not as bad. 

Edited October 16, 2016 by OUravensfan