Drafting "team" players vs drafting playmakers?

[mmcclend]

27 minutes ago, flynismo said:

We have two players left from the 10 - 11 drafts (Jimmy and Pitta) not one, and that's only because Kindle retired, Tyrod, Torrey, McPhee, and A Jones left via FA. That doesn't negate the fact we drafted VERY well those years.

2012 got us one of the best OG in the game and a solid player in Upshaw.

2013 is hardly busty when it got us one of the best up and coming DTs in the league, a solid starting RT in Wagner, and Juice.

2014 yeah I'd say we did okay getting CJ, Jernigan and Crocket.

2015 too early to say

2016 see above

 

So now that we've established that we're drafting as well as we ever have....what's the question again?

Great points. The question was do we go after playmakers in the draft or go for players who fit the raven way? I know we are wayyyy off thanks to the raven. My point is we lack drafted playmakers(specifically at skill positions). What I mean by a playmaker is somebody who constantly wins one on one battles, comes through in the clutch, teams fear.  Who on the Ravens do does anybody fear? Who have we drafted that you know is going to win their matchup week after week? Cj, and yanda. I agree with you that we've had some nice role players. But we've gotten caught up in quantity over quality. Can you admit that?

[mmcclend]

33 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

its hard to say its either. i think this can all be traced back to the 09-10 drafts, that put us in a big hole. 

michael oher was not the franchise LT he was supposed to be. we passed on vontae davis and clay matthews for him, and we ended up in a major hole a few years later in both edge rush and CB, paul kruger wasnt panning out so we needed to draft an edge rusher the next year and went for sergio kindle, then terrence cody was a monumental bust, so thats our top 2 picks in one draft totally missed and the previous year we got a reach and a late bloomer who left after 1 good year. the misses on kindle and kruger and oher have been haunting us ever since, we have searched desperately for those positions and have overpaid left and right for older players who are either gone or hurt now(monroe/dumervil). we press the panic button and take kamalei correa, who i really like a lot, but he may struggle to ever be a legit edge rusher but we got enamored with the prospect of finally having a speedy edge defender which can once again be traced back to the kindle pick busting. 

the ravens have also been very snakebitten with injuries. we take players with long records of good health and they come in and get injured right away, see: jimmy, perriman, williams, stanley. its crazy how bad our luck has been with injuries, its hard to hold freak injuries against the FO. but we did whiff big time years back and we were lucky enough to have a good roster in place to overcome it, but once they aged/retired/left we no longer had the homegrown talent to step up. it happens, im sure we'll overcome it eventually but the injuries are killing us and thats the main reason our drafts look so bad.

Thank you for being unbiased. I respect this post. Maybe it's our coaching. 

[Wildabeast88]

4 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

lol it's all good man. It's all fun bro. I bet if we all met at Ravens game we'd sip a beer together and cheer our boys on. I just have my opinion on certain things I've seen. I agree about max and perriman. Would you say our coaches aren't getting the most out of these guys? I feel like there's an issue we as fans are trying to decipher. I read these boards everyday. To me, the fans who are crushing me for this (not you) know There is a problem but aren't sure why it is. I'm okay with it, but as a board, these convos are good. 

Like Joey said earlier some is bad luck with health Jimmy, Perriman, Stanley, I also think Trestman has been holding back Perriman 99% of passes go less than 10 yards so you are not playing to Perriman or even for that matter Wallace's speed also as mentioned then freak accident with Sergio Kindle falling down the steps essentially ended his career and some things maybe the player drafted is solid/serviceable but lacks the wow factor Upshaw was a good example great run stopper not so good as a pass rusher. Also the RB deal where Pierce looked like he could be almost as good as Rice then he got hurt then LT looked good then he got hurt but overall I think Ozzie drafting isn't the biggest problem I would like to maybe see him trade up a little to get a guy here and there but you don't want to mortgage The future so it's a fine line. The biggest example this year would be Noah Spence instead we trade back granted I think that pick became Dixon but we did get Judon later.

[The Raven]

5 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

Great points. The question was do we go after playmakers in the draft or go for players who fit the raven way? I know we are wayyyy off thanks to the raven. My point is we lack drafted playmakers(specifically at skill positions). What I mean by a playmaker is somebody who constantly wins one on one battles, comes through in the clutch, teams fear.  Who on the Ravens do does anybody fear? Who have we drafted that you know is going to win their matchup week after week? Cj, and yanda. I agree with you that we've had some nice role players. But we've gotten caught up in quantity over quality. Can you admit that?

I know you explained it in the post, but this just doesn't make any sense.

At the end of the day it comes down to good players and bad players. We try to draft good players that will make an impact. I highly doubt Ozzie and Eric sit in the draft room and say "Hmmm this guy isn't a playmaker but he sure fits the Ravens way." That's just asinine.

Edited October 16, 2016 by The Raven

[mmcclend]

1 minute ago, Wildabeast88 said:

Like Joey said earlier some is bad luck with health Jimmy, Perriman, Stanley, I also think Trestman has been holding back Perriman 99% of passes go less than 10 yards so you are not playing to Perriman or even for that matter Wallace's speed also as mentioned then freak accident with Sergio Kindle falling down the steps essentially ended his career and some things maybe the player drafted is solid/serviceable but lacks the wow factor Upshaw was a good example great run stopper not so good as a pass rusher. Also the RB deal where Pierce looked like he could be almost as good as Rice then he got hurt then LT looked good then he got hurt but overall I think Ozzie drafting isn't the biggest problem I would like to maybe see him trade up a little to get a guy here and there but you don't want to mortgage The future so it's a fine line. The biggest example this year would be Noah Spence instead we trade back granted I think that pick became Dixon but we did get Judon later.

Gotcha. So would you say coaches aren't getting the most out of players? Harbs are practicing them too hard? I deff agree that injuries are a big setback for us as well as old man river trestman. I'm still sick we passed on Derrick Henry for correa. 

[BmoreBird22]

2 hours ago, mmcclend said:

Well said, but im specifically talking playmakers that we've drafted. Not older vets who've been cut by other teams. My main point is recently we haven't drafted our own playmakers and that's why at the end of games we sit there and wait for somebody to make a play, but nobody does. It's worrisome because we've been successful when our draft picks pan out, and every so often we draft a dominant star.  The more we whiff, the more we have to buy our team which has never been our MO. Compare our best players on the team that we've drafted to other successful teams. 

US: CJ, Flacco, TJ, jimmy, yanda, Webb, b will, pitta 

packers: jordy, AARON RODGERS, clay Matthews, haha Clinton dix, mike Daniels Sam shields , Burnett, Eddie lacy

Benglas: Dunlap, AJ green, gio Bernard and Jeremy hill, burfict, iloka, eifert.

I could go on but hopefully you see my point. We have quantity, which will keep us in games but not much quality which will keep giving us heart attacks. 

Well, if you look at it as someone who can make that play to swing a game, I think Mosley is actually in that territory this year and Weddle is kinda pushing toward that. I really like both of those two on defense.

On offense, they're still trying to find that skill player for Flacco that'll go make that AJ Green/Julio Jones type play to really blow the game open. 

[mmcclend]

Just now, The Raven said:

I know you explained it in the post, but this just doesn't make any sense.

At the end of the day it comes down to good players and bad players. We try to draft good players that will make an impact. I highly doubt Ozzie and Eric sit in the draft room and say "Hmmm this guy isn't a playmaker but he sure fits the Ravens way." That's just asinine.

I disagre. Remember the beef we had when pollard reed etc were being outspoken? Maybe harbs having that metality has effected the drafting strategy? Harbs doesn't like outspoken players and that was proven. It's not all about good and bad players. 

[Ravensfan23]

13 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

Nice. The issue I have though is we have to hope our guys become playmakers. When people argue with me about our playmakers they say Dixon could be, Tavon should be, Judon can be. I agree with tavon and Judon but are we sure? They won't even suit Judon for whatever reason. Now, me bringing up diggs and yannick is only to show that they were RIGHT THERE and our scouts missed on them or something. Kind of like we had first dibs on them. I'm not using hindsight for every good player we've missed but to Miss on both of those MD guy sucks. And again for the pats, I've seen Brady take over clearly. Edelman takes over consistently. Jamie Collins would be the best player on our team(I love cj like everybody else but he's not better than Jamie Collins). Donte Hightower is a star as well. Malcolm butler sure did take over the Super Bowl. 

Having to wait on guys is the result of two things imo. Injuries and bad drafting. There is no way around the fact that the Ravens have had some poor drafts, but when you have young guys getting hurt early in their careers it stumps their development. You can't control the rash of injuries we've had. But poor drafting and poor player development is all on the Ravens. 

I have to question your definition of what a star is if you consider either Hightower or Collins as stars honestly. Butler was a one play wonder and Edelman is the product of a really good system. All those players fit the description of the players you say were just role players for the Ravens. What makes Collins better than CJ other than the national spotlight he gets for playing with the Pats. He's played in a total of 48games with 280 tackles, 10.5 sacks, 16PD and 5Ints. CJ has played in a total of 37 games with 279 tackles, 7 sacks, 19PD and 5Ints. What makes him better? I wouldn't consider either a star but both are on their way. 

I could argue that without injury Ellerbe would be a much better player than Hightower and Ellerbe was a UDFA. Go back and look at his final season with the Ravens and first with the Dolphins. His numbers and impact was the same if not better than Hightower's but Ellerbe left the Ravens for more money. It'll be interesting to see if the Pats throw huge money at Hightower or Collis this offseason and compete with other teams who have huge cap space or do they do exactly what Ozzie has done. 

I love the story of Malcolm Butler but he has to prove it more than just the one year 2015 he played well. Remember Wright graded out as one of the best CBs over the final 8 games last year, how's that working out this year? 

I just think overall the fact that this team isn't winning as much or in the fashion that we are used to causes fans to question the direction of the team. But if we look at things, the Ravens aren't much different from other top teams in the NFL with the exception of the rash of injuries we've faced the past 2 years. You get so many people talking about how Ozzie screwed up by no adding stud talent like Spence or Jack to this team. Well how is either guy different from KC and Judon right now?

Let's look at what Ozzie has attempted to do. Drafting Perriman, Moore, Maxx, Dixon, Stanley and Lewis all in the 4th round or higher in the last 2 draft classes shows the Ravens are doing what they can to improve the offense with talented young players. Moving guys like Waller and Brown to TE shows that the Ravens are trying to build a attacking style offense, but again coaches have to use the talent right and players need to stay healthy in order to perform. You've added a ton of young talent on defense, a defense that is back to being top 5 in the NFL again so far. Yes there are still holes(like a young safety behind Weddle) but for the most part the Ravens have a really strong young defense. So far. But right now the Ravens seem to be a healthy oline and a good OC away from being a top team in the NFL and basically making those poor draft classes a few years ago a moot point. 

[mmcclend]

4 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Having to wait on guys is the result of two things imo. Injuries and bad drafting. There is no way around the fact that the Ravens have had some poor drafts, but when you have young guys getting hurt early in their careers it stumps their development. You can't control the rash of injuries we've had. But poor drafting and poor player development is all on the Ravens. 

I have to question your definition of what a star is if you consider either Hightower or Collins as stars honestly. Butler was a one play wonder and Edelman is the product of a really good system. All those players fit the description of the players you say were just role players for the Ravens. What makes Collins better than CJ other than the national spotlight he gets for playing with the Pats. He's played in a total of 48games with 280 tackles, 10.5 sacks, 16PD and 5Ints. CJ has played in a total of 37 games with 279 tackles, 7 sacks, 19PD and 5Ints. What makes him better? I wouldn't consider either a star but both are on their way. 

I could argue that without injury Ellerbe would be a much better player than Hightower and Ellerbe was a UDFA. Go back and look at his final season with the Ravens and first with the Dolphins. His numbers and impact was the same if not better than Hightower's but Ellerbe left the Ravens for more money. It'll be interesting to see if the Pats throw huge money at Hightower or Collis this offseason and compete with other teams who have huge cap space or do they do exactly what Ozzie has done. 

I love the story of Malcolm Butler but he has to prove it more than just the one year 2015 he played well. Remember Wright graded out as one of the best CBs over the final 8 games last year, how's that working out this year? 

I just think overall the fact that this team isn't winning as much or in the fashion that we are used to causes fans to question the direction of the team. But if we look at things, the Ravens aren't much different from other top teams in the NFL with the exception of the rash of injuries we've faced the past 2 years. You get so many people talking about how Ozzie screwed up by no adding stud talent like Spence or Jack to this team. Well how is either guy different from KC and Judon right now?

Let's look at what Ozzie has attempted to do. Drafting Perriman, Moore, Maxx, Dixon, Stanley and Lewis all in the 4th round or higher in the last 2 draft classes shows the Ravens are doing what they can to improve the offense with talented young players. Moving guys like Waller and Brown to TE shows that the Ravens are trying to build a attacking style offense, but again coaches have to use the talent right and players need to stay healthy in order to perform. You've added a ton of young talent on defense, a defense that is back to being top 5 in the NFL again so far. Yes there are still holes(like a young safety behind Weddle) but for the most part the Ravens have a really strong young defense. So far. But right now the Ravens seem to be a healthy oline and a good OC away from being a top team in the NFL and basically making those poor draft classes a few years ago a moot point. 

Fair point. Me saying Hightower and butler were stars(although I said playmakers) was a response to those who think jimmy or Webb are playmakers. How can tavon(again love the guy) be a playmaker but Malcom butler isn't? To consider perriman Dixon and Judon playmakers but not Hightower Edelman and butler not is just being a homer. Just because we know this team and love them doesn't mean they're all playmakers and that's how it seems sometimes on the board. I agree with the coaching and oline being the biggest issue. Isn't oline a part of the team? Werent they drafted?

[FlocksGottaFeed]

3 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Here's the issue. The goal of any draft class is to get three starters.

In 2011, the Ravens got Torrey and Jimmy and McPhee was huge for the Ravens and he was tremendous for the Bears last year. Then you've got Tyrod Taylor up there starting in Buffalo. I'm sure the Ravens would have loved to kept McPhee, but money and those knees.

In 2012, Upshaw and KO were both starters and the Ravens really wanted to keep KO and make him the highest paid OL on the Ravens, but they aren't paying $12M.

In 2013, Elam actually looked like a good rotational piece this year, but past that, you've got starters in Juice, BWill, and Wagner and John Simon is doing pretty well down there in Houston. You've also got Ryan Jensen as a key reserve that starts when needed.

In 2014, you've got Mosley and Jernigan starting and playing quite well. Gilmore was actually a starter last year. You've also got John Urschel who is a valuable depth piece who starts as needed.

In 2015, you've got Smith already and you'll likely have Perriman next year. Not sure Maxx will get a real shot to start until a year or two from here with Pitta here. I don't think Pitta remains here next year.

In 2016, it looks like they've already found three in Stanley, Lewis, and Young, two of whom were fourth rounders.

No, the players the Ravens draft aren't always lighting it up for the Ravens, maybe due to money or just a numbers game, but it does speak volumes to the fact that just going on from 2011, there are a handful of players who are doing very well for other teams and making a big contribution. Obviously the Ravens identified their talent and probably had a big hand in their development.

This ^^^^^^ Perfect!!!

[The Raven]

14 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

I disagre. Remember the beef we had when pollard reed etc were being outspoken? Maybe harbs having that metality has effected the drafting strategy? Harbs doesn't like outspoken players and that was proven. It's not all about good and bad players. 

What on earth...

So role players just step in line and playmakers challenge authority, and Harbaugh is apparently threatened by this, and therefore we don't want any stars? That is such a stretch I can't even fathom how you came to that conclusion.

Since when has it been proven that Harbs doesn't like outspoken players? We cut Pollard because he graded out as a bottom five coverage safety in the league. I thought that was obvious.

Yeah, Harbaugh really hates outspoken players. That's why we extended Suggs twice while Harbaugh's been here and signed Steve Smith Sr. 

You're going down the rabbit hole, son. Try not to get lost.

[Ravensfan23]

3 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

I disagre. Remember the beef we had when pollard reed etc were being outspoken? Maybe harbs having that metality has effected the drafting strategy? Harbs doesn't like outspoken players and that was proven. It's not all about good and bad players. 

This is what kills me about this. 

Guys like SSS, Boldin, Mason, Suggs and Housh were all guys who are considered outspoken vets. Guys who aren't afraid to speak their minds. Harbs has no issue with them, but everyone pounces on the Pollard episode. Harbs has never had issue with any of those guys to the point where he wanted them gone. At the end of the day, while Pollard was a good player for the Ravens, he was a player they thought they could do without. Whether it stemmed from the issues between he and Harbs or not, there has been many other players who have had outspoken personalities to play for Harbs and praise that man. 

[mmcclend]

6 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

This is what kills me about this. 

Guys like SSS, Boldin, Mason, Suggs and Housh were all guys who are considered outspoken vets. Guys who aren't afraid to speak their minds. Harbs has no issue with them, but everyone pounces on the Pollard episode. Harbs has never had issue with any of those guys to the point where he wanted them gone. At the end of the day, while Pollard was a good player for the Ravens, he was a player they thought they could do without. Whether it stemmed from the issues between he and Harbs or not, there has been many other players who have had outspoken personalities to play for Harbs and praise that man. 

You're correct. Just researched it. I can admit I was wrong about the harbs unspokenplayers thing. But that's all. 

[The Raven]

2 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

How long have you been a fan? Everybody knows about harbs beefing with ed reed Poland and outspoken players. You just are mad that I don't agree with you and its childish. Nothing you say will change my opinion so give up clown. 

I read about Pollard and Reed having a mutiny and Harbaugh having a sitdown talk with the whole team, which led to a more cohesive unit afterward. I've never read anything about Harbaugh not liking outspoken players. That's an unsubstantiated myth perpetuated by the learning impaired and Harbaugh haters.

I'm not mad. I couldn't care less. I deal with people with different opinions every day. I just find it amusing when people say things so definitively but offer nothing solid to back it up. If that makes me a "clown" then whatever lol. I give up! I'm a clown. Oh golly gee.

[kennethyamini1989]

To be fair, over the last 8 years the Ravens have had late picks simply because for most of the time they have been in the playoffs. I do think you also missed some good solid picks like Brandon Williams. I will say Perriman is looking like he probably was not worth it, but it is his first year on the field, so it is too early to tell. I think the Ravens overall the last 8 years have done a decent job..not the best, but also not the worst considering up until now they have been almost for sure playoff teams. 

[mmcclend]

1 minute ago, The Raven said:

I read about Pollard and Reed having a mutiny and Harbaugh having a sitdown talk with the whole team, which led to a more cohesive unit afterward. I've never read anything about Harbaugh not liking outspoken players. That's an unsubstantiated myth perpetuated by the learning impaired and Harbaugh haters.

I'm not mad. I couldn't care less. I deal with people with different opinions every day. I just find it amusing when people say things so definitively but offer nothing solid to back it up. If that makes me a "clown" then whatever lol. I give up! I'm a clown. Oh golly gee.

Yep I looked it up and actually agree. You're right on that point and as a man I can admit that. The mutiny is what I was talking about and I took what I read on the boards as fact. as far as the drafting and talent, we will always disagree. And yeah man honestly you're a clown for making this personal. 

[mmcclend]

Just now, kennethyamini1989 said:

To be fair, over the last 8 years the Ravens have had late picks simply because for most of the time they have been in the playoffs. I do think you also missed some good solid picks like Brandon Williams. I will say Perriman is looking like he probably was not worth it, but it is his first year on the field, so it is too early to tell. I think the Ravens overall the last 8 years have done a decent job..not the best, but also not the worst considering up until now they have been almost for sure playoff teams. 

Nah, reread my OP. I mentioned bwill. Do you think we are as talkented as the steelers, bengals, packers, vikes? Who also draft late most years?

[The Raven]

Just now, mmcclend said:

Yep I looked it up and actually agree. You're right on that point and as a man I can admit that. The mutiny is what I was talking about and I took what I read on the boards as fact. as far as the drafting and talent, we will always disagree. And yeah man honestly you're a clown for making this personal. 

Oh golly. 

[kennethyamini1989]

7 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

Nah, reread my OP. I mentioned bwill. Do you think we are as talkented as the steelers, bengals, packers, vikes? Who also draft late most years?

vikings havent drafted late over the last 8 years overall. Neither have the bengals..heck they got AJ green early. But to answer your question overall..yes 

[RavensFan34950]

Part of the reason I think for the drop off is because back during the Billick era, Ozzie was THE man in charge of drafting. DeCosta was still learning from him so he wasn't really in charge of anything involving the draft. Also knock Billick if you want, but he had a keen eye for talent in the draft. Thats why we were one of the best with mid round draft picks. Harbaugh specializes with getting the best out of the talent he's given, not necessarily picking the best talent. And I think I read somewhere that DeCosta is now mainly in charge with prospect evaluation. And lets face it, he ain't Ozzie lol.

[mmcclend]

6 minutes ago, RavensFan34950 said:

Part of the reason I think for the drop off is because back during the Billick era, Ozzie was THE man in charge of drafting. DeCosta was still learning from him so he wasn't really in charge of anything involving the draft. Also knock Billick if you want, but he had a keen eye for talent in the draft. Thats why we were one of the best with mid round draft picks. Harbaugh specializes with getting the best out of the talent he's given, not necessarily picking the best talent. And I think I read somewhere that DeCosta is now mainly in charge with prospect evaluation. And lets face it, he ain't Ozzie lol.

I agree. Harbs gets players to play well but at the end of the day the players are the ones playing.  And at skill positions, we lack playmakers across the board. 

[mmcclend]

8 minutes ago, kennethyamini1989 said:

vikings havent drafted late over the last 8 years overall. Neither have the bengals..heck they got AJ green early. But to answer your question overall..yes 

Quantity wise, I can agree with you. But the quality of playmakers on those teams are what's going to separate us. Especially at skill positions and pass rusher. I understand we are all Ravens fans here but the bias on this board is crazy. 

Edited October 16, 2016 by mmcclend

[kennethyamini1989]

1 minute ago, mmcclend said:

Quantity wise, I can agree with you. But the quality of playmakers on those teams are what's going to separate us. Especially at skill positions and pass rusher. I understand we are all Ravens fans here but the bias on this board is crazy. 

Bruh I am far from bias, I am just calling it how I see. over the last 8 years the ravens have been in 6 of the playoffs and have a Superbowl win....they draft pretty well with what they are given, especially considering they usually draft pretty low. 

[Ravensfan23]

11 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

Fair point. Me saying Hightower and butler were stars(although I said playmakers) was a response to those who think jimmy or Webb are playmakers. How can tavon(again love the guy) be a playmaker but Malcom butler isn't? To consider perriman Dixon and Judon playmakers but not Hightower Edelman and butler not is just being a homer. Just because we know this team and love them doesn't mean they're all playmakers and that's how it seems sometimes on the board. I agree with the coaching and oline being the biggest issue. Isn't oline a part of the team? Werent they drafted?

It's all a matter of what we are talking about. Imo there is a difference between star players and playmakers. None of the players named other than Gronk and Brady are stars imo. But they are playmakers who can help you win games. All those guys named for the Pats are play makers, but if they were wearing a Ravens uniform is this team any different? 

If Edelman is in this WR group how is it different? Would he really get as many targets here as he does in NE? Would Flacco rely on him as much on 3rd downs with SSS and Pitta here? Yes he's a playmaker for the Pats no doubt, but their systems helps alot. 

Again outside of Brady and Gronk(and a great system) where are the stars on the Pats team that aren't on the Ravens team? If used enough T. West could probably be a top 5-7 RB in the NFL right now. Does that guy not look like a playmaker offensively? Dennis Pitta is a top 5 TE right now and that's with Trestman calling 80% routes that don't fit our offense. So things "could" really change under Marty and this offense takes off. That'll probably start to back some people off Ozzie and the recent draft classes. 

[mmcclend]

6 minutes ago, kennethyamini1989 said:

Bruh I am far from bias, I am just calling it how I see. over the last 8 years the ravens have been in 6 of the playoffs and have a Superbowl win....they draft pretty well with what they are given, especially considering they usually draft pretty low. 

I see you on here often and know you're not bias. You actually are one of the more unbiased like myself. I keep it real too. I was speaking about those on here who are and bash ppl with different opinions. Not you my dude. 

[kennethyamini1989]

1 minute ago, mmcclend said:

I see you on here often and know you're not bias. You actually are one of the more unbiased like myself. I keep it real too. I was speaking about those on here who are and bash ppl with different opinions. Not you my dude. 

Oh ok lol. Yea I have been called a "troll" and actually given a temp ban for my opinions lol 

[mmcclend]

6 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

It's all a matter of what we are talking about. Imo there is a difference between star players and playmakers. None of the players named other than Gronk and Brady are stars imo. But they are playmakers who can help you win games. All those guys named for the Pats are play makers, but if they were wearing a Ravens uniform is this team any different? 

If Edelman is in this WR group how is it different? Would he really get as many targets here as he does in NE? Would Flacco rely on him as much on 3rd downs with SSS and Pitta here? Yes he's a playmaker for the Pats no doubt, but their systems helps alot. 

Again outside of Brady and Gronk(and a great system) where are the stars on the Pats team that aren't on the Ravens team? If used enough T. West could probably be a top 5-7 RB in the NFL right now. Does that guy not look like a playmaker offensively? Dennis Pitta is a top 5 TE right now and that's with Trestman calling 80% routes that don't fit our offense. So things "could" really change under Marty and this offense takes off. That'll probably start to back some people off Ozzie and the recent draft classes. 

hell of a point my guy. Would you say it's flacco then? What players do we even have who are on gronk and Brady's level? But again, my original post is about players we've drafted. So mentioning twest sss is moot to me. Go read the OP and don't be blinded how much my original argument has been twisted. 

[mmcclend]

1 minute ago, kennethyamini1989 said:

Oh ok lol. Yea I have been called a "troll" and actually given a temp ban for my opinions lol 

lol you know how it is whenever you say the Ravens aren't the best team in the NFL. We have issues like every team and I'm just talking them with fellow Ravens fans. Personal attacks, putting words in my mouth are all part of the deal here, but I'm not backing off my opinion.

[kennethyamini1989]

1 minute ago, mmcclend said:

hell of a point my guy. Would you say it's flacco then? What players do we even have who are on gronk and Brady's level? But again, my original post is about players we've drafted. So mentioning twest sss is moot to me. Go read the OP and don't be blinded how much my original argument has been twisted. 

right now the closest would be Terrell Suggs...sadly. Maybe Flacco. The stars mostly left after  the Superbowl and the Ravens simply have not recovered. 

[mmcclend]

Just now, kennethyamini1989 said:

right now the closest would be Terrell Suggs...sadly. Maybe Flacco. The stars mostly left after  the Superbowl and the Ravens simply have not recovered. 

This is what I'm getting at. We have quantity and not much quality. that's just why I've seen. And at the end of games we are gonna sit and wait for somebody to make a play that rarely will be made. It's just the truth. That's why every game is an armpit sweater.