Drafting "team" players vs drafting playmakers?

[GrimCoconut]

6 minutes ago, Wildabeast88 said:

Skill level behind but I feel our last 3 classes have been good and deep and if Perriman and Maxx can pan out our whole view of that class changes because the O- line and D-line are those sexy picks that most people judge. However we must draft pretty well because teams constantly overpay for our Free Agents which Is why we have led the league in comp picks so these guys must be good or re perceived as good. The amount of FAs lost takes away from the playmaker deal. 

We have playmakers but none that appear worth retaining. I'm especially referring to 2012 & 2013 since these classes really hurt us. That said, we'll see what happens since 2014 & 2015 look promising and so does 2016. We look like we're on our way up to me. 

[GrimCoconut]

1 minute ago, mmcclend said:

How so? Just because my opinion isn't biased like "The Raven"doesn't mean it's overblown. And I'm a HUGE Ravens fan. Die hard. I'm not saying we suck. We are consistently competitive but to say our talent isn't starting to fall behind is nonsense. 

I think people perceive our drafting to be bad because of 2012 & 2013. We even had guys come from these classes that made a big impact. We haven't been that bad but just haven't gotten guys who have really made big impacts. This perception likely started with Kindle, Cody, Dickson, Elam, Brown, Upshaw, Pierce, and Brooks but we've still come away with very good players. 

[mmcclend]

4 minutes ago, The Raven said:

Nah, I just like to see you get worked up.

Oh, I'm clearly a homer. I'm so offended.

Oh gosh, golly gee, I must not have watched the Super Bowl because I think the Patriots' roster is full of role players who are just very good at doing their job without making mistakes. They're just a bunch of role players.

Look, the whole concept of "playmaker" is so subjective it's not even worth talking about. It's fantasy football, Sunday morning ESPN show lingo.

I'm not worked up man, I'm a sports journalism major and I love football debates. No hard feelings even though you immaturely made this personal. 

[GrimCoconut]

7 minutes ago, RavensFanMania said:

there is no question we have drafted better than the Patriots have.  Even considering how many picks they have had over the last several years. 

I'd agree. Patriots blow picks on guys that don't do anything. Collins worked out but they haven't been very good but seem to be good at getting role players who just fit their scheme. 

[mmcclend]

3 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I'd agree. Patriots blow picks on guys that don't do anything. Collins worked out but they haven't been very good but seem to be good at getting role players who just fit their scheme. 

Looking at the draft you're correct. They just get more out of their players than we do which opens a whole new can of worms. 

[The Raven]

It's this simple.

The Patriots are good because they do their jobs, don't turn the ball over, and don't make mistakes. 

Their offensive line is top five almost every year. They don't fumble hardly ever. Their defense doesn't miss tackles. They don't really have playmakers -- whatever that actually means -- but they have a lot of guys that just don't screw up. That's what it comes down to.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

3 minutes ago, The Raven said:

It's this simple.

The Patriots are good because they do their jobs, don't turn the ball over, and don't make mistakes. 

Their offensive line is top five almost every year. They don't fumble hardly ever. Their defense doesn't miss tackles. They don't really have playmakers -- whatever that actually means -- but they have a lot of guys that just don't screw up. That's what it comes down to.

This like 100%.

 

they have a few great players, Tom brady, Gronk, Collins, and McCourtey but 4 people don't make a team. You need a few great players in there(btw: Joe, Steve, Pitta, potentially West, Weddle, CJ, Jernigan, Williams) but if you don't have good depth you ain't going anywhere.

 

oh and btw. Lack of talent wasn't our issue the past two games. Poor offensive scheming was the primary catalyst. If we are more balanced we probably win those games even with the coaching errors, drops, etc. 

 

This  forum after a loss smh

[mmcclend]

3 minutes ago, The Raven said:

It's this simple.

The Patriots are good because they do their jobs, don't turn the ball over, and don't make mistakes. 

Their offensive line is top five almost every year. They don't fumble hardly ever. Their defense doesn't miss tackles. They don't really have playmakers -- whatever that actually means -- but they have a lot of guys that just don't screw up. That's what it comes down to.

Every reason you just mention has something to do with drafting. So are we more talented than the pats right now? They went 4-1 without Brady. Imagine if we didn't have flacco. I understand you can't handle the truth about are Ravens. I understand when somebody isn't biased about the Ravens you throw a tantrum like a 2 year old but nobody is making you read or respond to my thread. There's a bunch of Ravens fans who agree with me. I'm not saying the sky is falling and man I hope we make it to the playoffs. All I'm saying is bad or below average drafting will catch up to us. 

[mmcclend]

1 minute ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

This like 100%.

 

they have a few great players, Tom brady, Gronk, Collins, and McCourtey but 4 people don't make a team. You need a few great players in there(btw: Joe, Steve, Pitta, potentially West, Weddle, CJ, Jernigan, Williams) but if you don't have good depth you ain't going anywhere.

 

oh and btw. Lack of talent wasn't our issue the past two games. Poor offensive scheming was the primary catalyst. If we are more balanced we probably win those games even with the coaching errors, drops, etc. 

 

This  forum after a loss smh

What's the issue stating my opinion? I'm just opening convo to see what ppl think. The sky isn't falling but the lack of talent is catching up to us. Don't even compare us to the pats bc they have a QB that'll be better than we most likely will ever have. Also, just because the raven brought the pats into my argument doesnt mean it's my point. I moreso compared us to the bengals, pack,and steelers. 

[The Raven]

4 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

Every reason you just mention has something to do with drafting. So are we more talented than the pats right now? They went 4-1 without Brady. Imagine if we didn't have flacco. I understand you can't handle the truth about are Ravens. I understand when somebody isn't biased about the Ravens you throw a tantrum like a 2 year old but nobody is making you read or respond to my thread. There's a bunch of Ravens fans who agree with me. I'm not saying the sky is falling and man I hope we make it to the playoffs. All I'm saying is bad or below average drafting will catch up to us. 

Since you missed it, we had a losing season last year. It already caught up.

[mmcclend]

5 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

This like 100%.

 

they have a few great players, Tom brady, Gronk, Collins, and McCourtey but 4 people don't make a team. You need a few great players in there(btw: Joe, Steve, Pitta, potentially West, Weddle, CJ, Jernigan, Williams) but if you don't have good depth you ain't going anywhere.

 

oh and btw. Lack of talent wasn't our issue the past two games. Poor offensive scheming was the primary catalyst. If we are more balanced we probably win those games even with the coaching errors, drops, etc. 

 

This  forum after a loss smh

Oh and btw we were talking players that their respective teams drafted. Not free agents. 

[mmcclend]

1 minute ago, The Raven said:

Since you missed it, we had a losing season last year. It already caught up.

So what are you even arguing for harbs? Only bc im realistic and you're drunk off that purple coolaid. 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Just now, mmcclend said:

What's the issue stating my opinion? I'm just opening convo to see what ppl think. The sky isn't falling but the lack of talent is catching up to us. Don't even compare us to the pats bc they have a QB that'll be better than we most likely will ever have. Also, just because the raven brought the pats into my argument doesnt mean it's my point. I moreso compared us to the bengals, pack,and steelers. 

Because it's very reactionary. 2012/2013 had bad drafts. But 2014/2015/2016 seem to have been better. CJ Mosley is great, Timmy Jernigan has also been good, Crockett has turned into a good TE, Perriman has flashed, he's got mental lapses but he's flashed big play ability and once he figures it all out he's gonna be great, Buck Allen has found a role, Maxx would easily have a bigger role had Pitta not miraculously returned to form and has shown development as a blocker(which is maddening why Trestman didn't use him more but that's beside the point), Stanley looks like he could be a good Lt and Lewis looks good, Tavon Young looks like a good player, Dixon has potential, Moore could be another deep threat.

 

We aren't lacking in talent. It's a particularly younger team. We have vets scattered in there but it's a younger team that's in the process of putting the pieces together. I'm not worried

[Wildabeast88]

5 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

Every reason you just mention has something to do with drafting. So are we more talented than the pats right now? They went 4-1 without Brady. Imagine if we didn't have flacco. I understand you can't handle the truth about are Ravens. I understand when somebody isn't biased about the Ravens you throw a tantrum like a 2 year old but nobody is making you read or respond to my thread. There's a bunch of Ravens fans who agree with me. I'm not saying the sky is falling and man I hope we make it to the playoffs. All I'm saying is bad or below average drafting will catch up to us. 

Sports journalism cool. Just a quick critique our Ravens instead of are. Just messing with you. I agree with a lot of what you have said 2012 2013 drafts were horrid but I think while early Ozzie has made a turn around Perriman and Maxx could be big time playmakers as well as Dixon and Tavon Young is showing some playmaking ability with 2 turnovers in his 1st 5 games. I agree with both Grim and Lost on their assessment of the Pats drafts not being good but Belichick out coaches and out schemes his opponents. 

[The Raven]

Just now, mmcclend said:

So what are you even arguing for harbs? Only bc im realistic and you're drunk off that purple coolaid. 

I'm really impressed by you constantly referring to folks as homers. That's really unique and effective. Never heard it before. Nice.

What am I arguing? Two things.,

1. Your concept of "team players" (whatever that means) and "playmakers (whatever that means) is, subjective as hell, and ineffective for actually evaluating a roster. It is the result of the fantasy football and Madden era of the NFL. It is a simplistic, shortsighted way of looking at the game.

2. The past two to three draft classes have been fairly strong and I think we're in good shape going forward.

[flynismo]

7 hours ago, mmcclend said:

Almost 24 hours until gametime and of course, like everybody else, my mind has been spinning. I'll probably get crushed for this but oh well lol.

One thing I've noticed in the past few years is we either...

1. Are drafting role players to fit the "Ravens way."

or

2. Oz and decosta are just plain missing. Very badly.

We have one person left from our 2010-11 drafts(Pitta and jimmy).

None from '12(my lord if you have time look at that draft).

we all know how busty the 13 draft was (elam and art brown).

'14 was a very oooookkkkk(cj and Timmy J).

'15 gave us close to nothing .

'16 jury is still out.

 

I trust in Ozzie so it's tough to believe that it's number 2 but it's starting to seem that way. Right now our MAIN issue is our lack of HOMEGROWN playmakers. If you look at the past 5 or 6 drafts compared to other teams it is very dissapointing. Outside of drafting CJ (great pick) most of our other picks are role players who fizzle out eventually. Yes of course BWill is a good player and excellent run stopper but is he a playmaker? I'm not too sure. Jernigan is on his way but needs to keep being consistent. Jimmy, while I think he's good, isn't a playmaker. To me, this is the reason we are in so many close games and lack decisive wins. We don't have many playmakers at game breaking positions. RB, pass rusher, WR(least important) CB. We rely on old vets to fill playmaking positions and it's showing.  Teams like the steelers, pats, Bengals, Seattle, minn, etc have so many homegrown playmakers and once they grow up together they dominate.

 

Sidebar -In the past 3 or so years, what percentage of our BEST players have been drafted by us? This year our best players have been SSS, Weddle, cj, Jernigan, Wallace, T west, Orr, pitta, and based on respect if you want to add sizz I'll give you that. Talent wise, I know flacco is one but has he played like one of our best players yet this year? Not too sure.. I could be missing somebody but that's not a good ratio. Compare this to the squeelers best players so far this year(I know I know)

Big Ben, leveon, Brown, shazier, cam heyward, D Williams etc. most are homegrown and playmakers. Sucks to think about but it's reality and we need a change before we fall too far behind in the talent department. The OC change isn't going to fix this everything, just saying. 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

We have two players left from the 10 - 11 drafts (Jimmy and Pitta) not one, and that's only because Kindle retired, Tyrod, Torrey, McPhee, and A Jones left via FA. That doesn't negate the fact we drafted VERY well those years.

2012 got us one of the best OG in the game and a solid player in Upshaw.

2013 is hardly busty when it got us one of the best up and coming DTs in the league, a solid starting RT in Wagner, and Juice.

2014 yeah I'd say we did okay getting CJ, Jernigan and Crocket.

2015 too early to say

2016 see above

 

So now that we've established that we're drafting as well as we ever have....what's the question again?

Edited October 15, 2016 by flynismo

[JoeyFlex5]

its hard to say its either. i think this can all be traced back to the 09-10 drafts, that put us in a big hole. 

michael oher was not the franchise LT he was supposed to be. we passed on vontae davis and clay matthews for him, and we ended up in a major hole a few years later in both edge rush and CB, paul kruger wasnt panning out so we needed to draft an edge rusher the next year and went for sergio kindle, then terrence cody was a monumental bust, so thats our top 2 picks in one draft totally missed and the previous year we got a reach and a late bloomer who left after 1 good year. the misses on kindle and kruger and oher have been haunting us ever since, we have searched desperately for those positions and have overpaid left and right for older players who are either gone or hurt now(monroe/dumervil). we press the panic button and take kamalei correa, who i really like a lot, but he may struggle to ever be a legit edge rusher but we got enamored with the prospect of finally having a speedy edge defender which can once again be traced back to the kindle pick busting. 

the ravens have also been very snakebitten with injuries. we take players with long records of good health and they come in and get injured right away, see: jimmy, perriman, williams, stanley. its crazy how bad our luck has been with injuries, its hard to hold freak injuries against the FO. but we did whiff big time years back and we were lucky enough to have a good roster in place to overcome it, but once they aged/retired/left we no longer had the homegrown talent to step up. it happens, im sure we'll overcome it eventually but the injuries are killing us and thats the main reason our drafts look so bad.

[Wildabeast88]

8 minutes ago, The Raven said:

Since you missed it, we had a losing season last year. It already caught up.

I think that had more to do with injuries last year. When you start 4 QBs and get down to starting your 3rd string RB your 5th WR in training camp and lose you best pass rusher and have to pull CBs off the street any team will suck. But even with Ryan Mallett, Buck Allen, and Kamar Aiken as leaders at their position we still beat the Steelers.

[mmcclend]

1 minute ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

Because it's very reactionary. 2012/2013 had bad drafts. But 2014/2015/2016 seem to have been better. CJ Mosley is great, Timmy Jernigan has also been good, Crockett has turned into a good TE, Perriman has flashed, he's got mental lapses but he's flashed big play ability and once he figures it all out he's gonna be great, Buck Allen has found a role, Maxx would easily have a bigger role had Pitta not miraculously returned to form and has shown development as a blocker(which is maddening why Trestman didn't use him more but that's beside the point), Stanley looks like he could be a good Lt and Lewis looks good, Tavon Young looks like a good player, Dixon has potential, Moore could be another deep threat.

 

We aren't lacking in talent. It's a particularly younger team. We have vets scattered in there but it's a younger team that's in the process of putting the pieces together. I'm not worried

Nice points, but I disagree that we don't lack talent. Players will show flashes butconsistebcy makes them playmakers. How many flashes did rashann Melvin show us? Carl Davis? Even shareece had flashes. I'm not saying we are a bad team and I love my Ravens. But my opinion is that we are starting to fall behind in homegrown talent and it's starting to show. If I get murdered on here for my opinion so be it. At the end of the day none of us really matter to the Ravens so it's all fun. None of us are getting a ring, so be open-minded.

[TurkishRaven]

I guess people expect us to draft 8 starters every year.

[mmcclend]

Just now, TurkishRaven said:

I guess people expect us to draft 8 starters every year.

I guess people don't actually read the OP and just bandwagon everybody else.  

[mmcclend]

I love debating. Keep them coming lol 1 vs 100. I'm enjoying this convo. I'm curious as to see how many ppl really think our draft talent isn't falling off. 

[flynismo]

2 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

I love debating. Keep them coming lol 1 vs 100. I'm enjoying this convo. I'm curious as to see how many ppl really think our draft talent isn't falling off. 

It isn't falling off. It's a matter of retaining them once their rookie deal expires. We're doing fine drafting.

[GrimCoconut]

10 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

Because it's very reactionary. 2012/2013 had bad drafts. But 2014/2015/2016 seem to have been better. CJ Mosley is great, Timmy Jernigan has also been good, Crockett has turned into a good TE, Perriman has flashed, he's got mental lapses but he's flashed big play ability and once he figures it all out he's gonna be great, Buck Allen has found a role, Maxx would easily have a bigger role had Pitta not miraculously returned to form and has shown development as a blocker(which is maddening why Trestman didn't use him more but that's beside the point), Stanley looks like he could be a good Lt and Lewis looks good, Tavon Young looks like a good player, Dixon has potential, Moore could be another deep threat.

 

We aren't lacking in talent. It's a particularly younger team. We have vets scattered in there but it's a younger team that's in the process of putting the pieces together. I'm not worried

 

8 minutes ago, Wildabeast88 said:

Sports journalism cool. Just a quick critique our Ravens instead of are. Just messing with you. I agree with a lot of what you have said 2012 2013 drafts were horrid but I think while early Ozzie has made a turn around Perriman and Maxx could be big time playmakers as well as Dixon and Tavon Young is showing some playmaking ability with 2 turnovers in his 1st 5 games. I agree with both Grim and Lost on their assessment of the Pats drafts not being good but Belichick out coaches and out schemes his opponents. 

 

4 minutes ago, flynismo said:

We have two players left from the 10 - 11 drafts (Jimmy and Pitta) not one, and that's only because Kindle retired, Tyrod, Torrey, McPhee, and A Jones left via FA. That doesn't negate the fact we drafted VERY well those years.

2012 got us one of the best OG in the game and a solid player in Upshaw.

2013 is hardly busty when it got us one of the best up and coming DTs in the league, a solid starting RT in Wagner, and Juice.

2014 yeah I'd say we did okay getting CJ, Jernigan and Crocket.

2015 too early to say

2016 see above

 

So now that we've established that we're drafting as well as we ever have....what's the question again?

I'd argue our worst draft was 2010 because only a fourth round TE remains from that class. 2012 was worse than 2013 to me because we have nobody left on this team from 2012 and while Upshaw was solid he wasn't worth the pick then and wasn't in hindsight. I was never in love with that pick. Decent player but look at his interest in the league as a free agent because nobody really wanted him. KO is another matter but he's no longer here like every other pick that year and that's bad. We've really picked up our drafting game lately though. Ever since 2014. 2013 gave us some impact players but not until the 3-5th range. This is great but we have to do better on the second day. We seem to be doing just that though 

[The Raven]

4 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

I love debating. Keep them coming lol 1 vs 100. I'm enjoying this convo. I'm curious as to see how many ppl really think our draft talent isn't falling off. 

I know you've probably just discovered this and that's why you're so excited, but most of us are already well aware we had several drafts that didn't quite pan out. 

[flynismo]

Look at the Pats drafts over the past 7-8 years. Would you say they drafted better than us?

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=3200&type=team

[The Raven]

4 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Look at the Pats drafts over the past 7-8 years. Would you say they drafted better than us?

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=3200&type=team

They do a great job at getting 2-3 solid starters/role players in each draft, and most of the time, so do we. They haven't drafted anyone I'd call a star in recent years, Jamie Collins and Chandler Jones aside.

I think the issue is that they do better to retain the guys that pan out. 

[mmcclend]

22 minutes ago, Wildabeast88 said:

Sports journalism cool. Just a quick critique our Ravens instead of are. Just messing with you. I agree with a lot of what you have said 2012 2013 drafts were horrid but I think while early Ozzie has made a turn around Perriman and Maxx could be big time playmakers as well as Dixon and Tavon Young is showing some playmaking ability with 2 turnovers in his 1st 5 games. I agree with both Grim and Lost on their assessment of the Pats drafts not being good but Belichick out coaches and out schemes his opponents. 

lol it's all good man. It's all fun bro. I bet if we all met at Ravens game we'd sip a beer together and cheer our boys on. I just have my opinion on certain things I've seen. I agree about max and perriman. Would you say our coaches aren't getting the most out of these guys? I feel like there's an issue we as fans are trying to decipher. I read these boards everyday. To me, the fans who are crushing me for this (not you) know There is a problem but aren't sure why it is. I'm okay with it, but as a board, these convos are good. 

[mmcclend]

8 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Look at the Pats drafts over the past 7-8 years. Would you say they drafted better than us?

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=3200&type=team

You're right but I never brought the pats into the convo. The raven did because he didn't agree with what I said. Bash me for stuff I've said in my op. 

[The Raven]

7 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

You're right but I never brought the pats into the convo. The raven did because he didn't agree with what I said. Bash me for stuff I've said in my op. 

And what I said challenges your thesis, which is why the Patriots are still relevant to the discussion.