Drafting "team" players vs drafting playmakers?

[mmcclend]

Almost 24 hours until gametime and of course, like everybody else, my mind has been spinning. I'll probably get crushed for this but oh well lol.

One thing I've noticed in the past few years is we either...

1. Are drafting role players to fit the "Ravens way."

or

2. Oz and decosta are just plain missing. Very badly.

We have one person left from our 2010-11 drafts(Pitta and jimmy).

None from '12(my lord if you have time look at that draft).

we all know how busty the 13 draft was (elam and art brown).

'14 was a very oooookkkkk(cj and Timmy J).

'15 gave us close to nothing .

'16 jury is still out.

 

I trust in Ozzie so it's tough to believe that it's number 2 but it's starting to seem that way. Right now our MAIN issue is our lack of HOMEGROWN playmakers. If you look at the past 5 or 6 drafts compared to other teams it is very dissapointing. Outside of drafting CJ (great pick) most of our other picks are role players who fizzle out eventually. Yes of course BWill is a good player and excellent run stopper but is he a playmaker? I'm not too sure. Jernigan is on his way but needs to keep being consistent. Jimmy, while I think he's good, isn't a playmaker. To me, this is the reason we are in so many close games and lack decisive wins. We don't have many playmakers at game breaking positions. RB, pass rusher, WR(least important) CB. We rely on old vets to fill playmaking positions and it's showing.  Teams like the steelers, pats, Bengals, Seattle, minn, etc have so many homegrown playmakers and once they grow up together they dominate.

 

Sidebar -In the past 3 or so years, what percentage of our BEST players have been drafted by us? This year our best players have been SSS, Weddle, cj, Jernigan, Wallace, T west, Orr, pitta, and based on respect if you want to add sizz I'll give you that. Talent wise, I know flacco is one but has he played like one of our best players yet this year? Not too sure.. I could be missing somebody but that's not a good ratio. Compare this to the squeelers best players so far this year(I know I know)

Big Ben, leveon, Brown, shazier, cam heyward, D Williams etc. most are homegrown and playmakers. Sucks to think about but it's reality and we need a change before we fall too far behind in the talent department. The OC change isn't going to fix this everything, just saying. 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2016 by mmcclend

[Wildabeast88]

So I guess the guess who were playmakers who left for big money don't count Kruger, T. Smith, Ellerbe, McPhee, Art Jones, who have ll been busts since they left don't count, there is a reason we didn't pay top dollar for those guys. All were good with us but were awful after they left. Also, it's a little early to kill the 14 and 15 drafts generally 3-4 years is when you can truly evaluate. I will give you 12 and 13, but 14 was solid 3 defensive starters, and Urschel and Gillmore and 15 it's still early but I don't believe is a bad draft. I know Perriman missing last year hurts perception and Maxx being hurt this year hurts and Buck could be a solid contributor same with Davis and ZaDarius has shown some potential but its to early to say thats why i would wait one more year before you cush that draft yet. Also we have never drafted a top flight WR Torrey was the best in recent memory our recent RBs have been good but had injuries derail them, Pierce, LT, Buck was decent last year not much yet this year.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Wildabeast88

[mmcclend]

1 hour ago, Wildabeast88 said:

So I guess the guess who were playmakers who left for big money don't count Kruger, T. Smith, Ellerbe, McPhee, Art Jones, who have ll been busts since they left don't count, there is a reason we didn't pay top dollar for those guys. All were good with us but were awful after they left. Also, it's a little early to kill the 14 and 15 drafts generally 3-4 years is when you can truly evaluate. I will give you 12 and 13, but 14 was solid 3 defensive starters, and Urschel and Gillmore and 15 it's still early but I don't believe is a bad draft. I know Perriman missing last year hurts perception and Maxx being hurt this year hurts and Buck could be a solid contributor same with Davis and ZaDarius has shown some potential but its to early to say thats why i would wait one more year before you cush that draft yet. Also we have never drafted a top flight WR Torrey was the best in recent memory our recent RBs have been good but had injuries derail them, Pierce, LT, Buck was decent last year not much yet this year.

I respect your opinion and you make good points but I'm not sure you understand fully what I'm pointing out.  First of all I'll give you McPhee, completely left him out but you're considering a rotational pass rusher (Kruger), average LB(ellerbe), and one trick pony (Torrey). Art jones(really?). You're actually proving my point because if they were such playmakers, they'd be doing just as well on their new squads. The title says drafting team players vs drafting playmakers. Apparently you agree that we've drafted team players. As far as buck ZDS etc who you say "could be " contributors. Coulda shoulda woulda. They've underperformed so far. And I actually like max and ZDS. Buck is a dime a dozen, we could find his production in free agency right now. Maybe take some time to compare who you're considering our playmakers to other teams playmakers and you'll see. Players who play well on your squad but suck on other teams are role players. And FYI, Art, McPhee, Kruger, ellerbe also had REAL playmakers like haloti and two guys named ray Lewis and ed reed playing beside them.

[mmcclend]

2 hours ago, Wildabeast88 said:

So I guess the guess who were playmakers who left for big money don't count Kruger, T. Smith, Ellerbe, McPhee, Art Jones, who have ll been busts since they left don't count, there is a reason we didn't pay top dollar for those guys. All were good with us but were awful after they left. Also, it's a little early to kill the 14 and 15 drafts generally 3-4 years is when you can truly evaluate. I will give you 12 and 13, but 14 was solid 3 defensive starters, and Urschel and Gillmore and 15 it's still early but I don't believe is a bad draft. I know Perriman missing last year hurts perception and Maxx being hurt this year hurts and Buck could be a solid contributor same with Davis and ZaDarius has shown some potential but its to early to say thats why i would wait one more year before you cush that draft yet. Also we have never drafted a top flight WR Torrey was the best in recent memory our recent RBs have been good but had injuries derail them, Pierce, LT, Buck was decent last year not much yet this year.

Oh, and the14 draft gave us two starters jernigan and cj(both of which I mentioned as playmakers in the original post) imnot sure who the third is. Urban? And urshel? He's more into math. A Lewis took his spot pretty soundly. And don't give me the injury thing, who would you rather have starting? Carl Davis got his spot ran by undrafted Michael pierce. Face it, we've whiffed on around 85% of our recent picks 

Edited October 15, 2016 by mmcclend

[Sami84]

we've been one of the worst drafting teams in over 8 years. The fact that this conversation is coming up time and time again proves it. 

[codizzle]

I love these threads

[flynismo]

2 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

we've been one of the worst drafting teams in over 8 years. The fact that this conversation is coming up time and time again proves it nothing. 

Agreed

[BmoreBird22]

Here's the issue. The goal of any draft class is to get three starters.

In 2011, the Ravens got Torrey and Jimmy and McPhee was huge for the Ravens and he was tremendous for the Bears last year. Then you've got Tyrod Taylor up there starting in Buffalo. I'm sure the Ravens would have loved to kept McPhee, but money and those knees.

In 2012, Upshaw and KO were both starters and the Ravens really wanted to keep KO and make him the highest paid OL on the Ravens, but they aren't paying $12M.

In 2013, Elam actually looked like a good rotational piece this year, but past that, you've got starters in Juice, BWill, and Wagner and John Simon is doing pretty well down there in Houston. You've also got Ryan Jensen as a key reserve that starts when needed.

In 2014, you've got Mosley and Jernigan starting and playing quite well. Gilmore was actually a starter last year. You've also got John Urschel who is a valuable depth piece who starts as needed.

In 2015, you've got Smith already and you'll likely have Perriman next year. Not sure Maxx will get a real shot to start until a year or two from here with Pitta here. I don't think Pitta remains here next year.

In 2016, it looks like they've already found three in Stanley, Lewis, and Young, two of whom were fourth rounders.

No, the players the Ravens draft aren't always lighting it up for the Ravens, maybe due to money or just a numbers game, but it does speak volumes to the fact that just going on from 2011, there are a handful of players who are doing very well for other teams and making a big contribution. Obviously the Ravens identified their talent and probably had a big hand in their development.

[mmcclend]

8 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

we've been one of the worst drafting teams in over 8 years. The fact that this conversation is coming up time and time again proves it. 

I've always agreed with some of the things you've said even though you get bashed all day everyday. You actually keep it real most of the time. Respect. Some fans can't deal with the truth, some can. 

[mmcclend]

2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Here's the issue. The goal of any draft class is to get three starters.

In 2011, the Ravens got Torrey and Jimmy and McPhee was huge for the Ravens and he was tremendous for the Bears last year. Then you've got Tyrod Taylor up there starting in Buffalo. I'm sure the Ravens would have loved to kept McPhee, but money and those knees.

In 2012, Upshaw and KO were both starters and the Ravens really wanted to keep KO and make him the highest paid OL on the Ravens, but they aren't paying $12M.

In 2013, Elam actually looked like a good rotational piece this year, but past that, you've got starters in Juice, BWill, and Wagner and John Simon is doing pretty well down there in Houston. You've also got Ryan Jensen as a key reserve that starts when needed.

In 2014, you've got Mosley and Jernigan starting and playing quite well. Gilmore was actually a starter last year. You've also got John Urschel who is a valuable depth piece who starts as needed.

In 2015, you've got Smith already and you'll likely have Perriman next year. Not sure Maxx will get a real shot to start until a year or two from here with Pitta here. I don't think Pitta remains here next year.

In 2016, it looks like they've already found three in Stanley, Lewis, and Young, two of whom were fourth rounders.

No, the players the Ravens draft aren't always lighting it up for the Ravens, maybe due to money or just a numbers game, but it does speak volumes to the fact that just going on from 2011, there are a handful of players who are doing very well for other teams and making a big contribution. Obviously the Ravens identified their talent and probably had a big hand in their development.

Thank you for actually making a point my man. Very intelligent also I must add. I agree we've gotten some starters from the drafts. How else would we have starters though? My main point though is how many are PLAYMAKERS. Starter doesn't always equal playmaker. I guess what I'm saying is how many draft picks do we have that can constantly win one on one battles? We've even overlooked playmakers that have actually been in our backyard (diggs, boy could we use him), yannick ngakoui(boy could we use him too. I think he sacked flacco twice) those are 5th round playmakers who were right at Maryland. And if Sean Davis(also Maryland)becomes a star in Pitt I'm going to lose my mind!

[Wildabeast88]

49 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

I respect your opinion and you make good points but I'm not sure you understand fully what I'm pointing out.  First of all I'll give you McPhee, completely left him out but you're considering a rotational pass rusher (Kruger), average LB(ellerbe), and one trick pony (Torrey). Art jones(really?). You're actually proving my point because if they were such playmakers, they'd be doing just as well on their new squads. The title says drafting team players vs drafting playmakers. Apparently you agree that we've drafted team players. As far as buck ZDS etc who you say "could be " contributors. Coulda shoulda woulda. They've underperformed so far. And I actually like max and ZDS. Buck is a dime a dozen, we could find his production in free agency right now. Maybe take some time to compare who you're considering our playmakers to other teams playmakers and you'll see. Players who play well on your squad but suck on other teams are role players. And FYI, Art, McPhee, Kruger, ellerbe also had REAL playmakers like haloti and two guys named ray Lewis and ed reed playing beside them.

During the Super Bowl run Jones Ellerbe and Kruger were all starters and strong contributors just remember the uproar when we lost those guys and yes they looked better because of who they played with but what did Haloti and Reed do when they left Reed got cut in like 6 weeks so by your argument about going to other teams and sucking is kind of invalid because by that definition Ed Reed would be a role player, which he is not. I get what you are saying and yes we had a couple not so good drafts but I feel the last few have been pretty good. 

[BmoreBird22]

1 minute ago, mmcclend said:

Thank you for actually making a point my man. Very intelligent also I must add. I agree we've gotten some starters from the drafts. How else would we have starters though? My main point though is how many are PLAYMAKERS. Starter doesn't always equal playmaker. I guess what I'm saying is how many draft picks do we have that can constantly win one on one battles? We've even overlooked playmakers that have actually been in our backyard (diggs, boy could we use him), yannick ngakoui(boy could we use him too. I think he sacked flacco twice) those are 5th round playmakers who were right at Maryland. And if Sean Davis(also Maryland)becomes a star in Pitt I'm going to lose my mind!

I think had guys like KO and McPhee, they'd be kinda what you're looking for without being a playmaker, per se.

Now, it does frustrate me that the Ravens don't have a Richard Sherman or Patrick Peterson type corner that goes up and makes a ton of plays on the ball. Actually, believe it or not, Talib is currently the leader for corners in INTs and TDs since coming into the league. 

Diggs... many of us will tell you he should be here. I was losing my mind that the Ravens didn't take him. I thought he should have been round 2, maybe three. Not a huge fan of Yannick and I think Sean Davis went higher than I'd personally (not saying anything whatsoever) take him, but yeah, not getting a guy like Diggs makes you really frustrated.

But to answer the question of where else they'd get their man; they've gotten huge contributions from Steve Smith and Eric Weddle, just to name two. Wallace has definitely had his moments and it's possible that TWest gets a fairer shot with Marty M. (not gonna try to pronounce that last name). 

Basically, yeah, I'd love to see guys like Jimmy be more than just someone who doesn't get thrown at. Make a damn play when you are thrown at. I'd love to see Perriman make those plays. Two touchdowns he could have had (and one he definitely should have). I'd love to see Z. Smith step up and become the pass rusher we thought he could be after his rookie season. I think some guys we SHOULD see become playmakers will be Perriman, Young, and Dixon, recently. Mosley is becoming quite the playmaker, though. Making some really nice interceptions.

[Wildabeast88]

45 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

Oh, and the14 draft gave us two starters jernigan and cj(both of which I mentioned as playmakers in the original post) imnot sure who the third is. Urban? And urshel? He's more into math. A Lewis took his spot pretty soundly. And don't give me the injury thing, who would you rather have starting? Carl Davis got his spot ran by undrafted Michael pierce. Face it, we've whiffed on around 85% of our recent picks 

I wouldn't call starters whiffing on a draft pick. Drafting 5 WRs and cutting 3 of them is whiffing. I agree Davis has been disappointing but we also hit home runs on UDFA's constantly so if Ozzie finds those guys I don't see how we can say he is so bad.

[mmcclend]

6 minutes ago, Wildabeast88 said:

During the Super Bowl run Jones Ellerbe and Kruger were all starters and strong contributors just remember the uproar when we lost those guys and yes they looked better because of who they played with but what did Haloti and Reed do when they left Reed got cut in like 6 weeks so by your argument about going to other teams and sucking is kind of invalid because by that definition Ed Reed would be a role player, which he is not. I get what you are saying and yes we had a couple not so good drafts but I feel the last few have been pretty good. 

There's uproar every single time we lose a productive starter. So you're going to compare reed in his last leg to somebody getting their second contract?  You're reaching for your point. lol he's a hall of famer and most likely a big reason you're even a fan. He went to Houston and the jets to collect a check. Why are you acting like I'm saying we haven't drafted any starters? Lol. Again man, we aren't drafting many PLAYMAKERS PLAYMAKERS PLAYMAKERS!!! Name the PLAYMAKERS on our team that WE'VE drafted. 

[mmcclend]

7 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I think had guys like KO and McPhee, they'd be kinda what you're looking for without being a playmaker, per se.

Now, it does frustrate me that the Ravens don't have a Richard Sherman or Patrick Peterson type corner that goes up and makes a ton of plays on the ball. Actually, believe it or not, Talib is currently the leader for corners in INTs and TDs since coming into the league. 

Diggs... many of us will tell you he should be here. I was losing my mind that the Ravens didn't take him. I thought he should have been round 2, maybe three. Not a huge fan of Yannick and I think Sean Davis went higher than I'd personally (not saying anything whatsoever) take him, but yeah, not getting a guy like Diggs makes you really frustrated.

But to answer the question of where else they'd get their man; they've gotten huge contributions from Steve Smith and Eric Weddle, just to name two. Wallace has definitely had his moments and it's possible that TWest gets a fairer shot with Marty M. (not gonna try to pronounce that last name). 

Basically, yeah, I'd love to see guys like Jimmy be more than just someone who doesn't get thrown at. Make a damn play when you are thrown at. I'd love to see Perriman make those plays. Two touchdowns he could have had (and one he definitely should have). I'd love to see Z. Smith step up and become the pass rusher we thought he could be after his rookie season. I think some guys we SHOULD see become playmakers will be Perriman, Young, and Dixon, recently. Mosley is becoming quite the playmaker, though. Making some really nice interceptions.

Well said, but im specifically talking playmakers that we've drafted. Not older vets who've been cut by other teams. My main point is recently we haven't drafted our own playmakers and that's why at the end of games we sit there and wait for somebody to make a play, but nobody does. It's worrisome because we've been successful when our draft picks pan out, and every so often we draft a dominant star.  The more we whiff, the more we have to buy our team which has never been our MO. Compare our best players on the team that we've drafted to other successful teams. 

US: CJ, Flacco, TJ, jimmy, yanda, Webb, b will, pitta 

packers: jordy, AARON RODGERS, clay Matthews, haha Clinton dix, mike Daniels Sam shields , Burnett, Eddie lacy

Benglas: Dunlap, AJ green, gio Bernard and Jeremy hill, burfict, iloka, eifert.

I could go on but hopefully you see my point. We have quantity, which will keep us in games but not much quality which will keep giving us heart attacks. 

[Wildabeast88]

3 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

There's uproar every single time we lose a productive starter. So you're going to compare reed in his last leg to somebody getting their second contract?  You're reaching for your point. lol he's a hall of famer and most likely a big reason you're even a fan. He went to Houston and the jets to collect a check. Why are you acting like I'm saying we haven't drafted any starters? Lol. Again man, we aren't drafting many PLAYMAKERS PLAYMAKERS PLAYMAKERS!!! Name the PLAYMAKERS on our team that WE'VE drafted. 

It depends what is your definition of a playmaker Kruger the rotational pass rusher in 2012 had 9 sacks 1 Int 1FF 1FR. McPhee in his last year had 8.5 sacks. Before Webb's 2nd ACL he was rated as the number 2 CB in the league behind Revis since then no he has not been the same but he was a playmaker. Torrey was a solid player playmaker. I was getting crushed on these boards when I was talking up Ezekiel Elliot as better than Gurley which he is by the way but I get it he was gone and Stanley was a good pick not sexy a playmaker but how different would Ravens history be if we went playmaker Lawrence Phillips overJonathan Ogden. I get your point  but not every player is a playmaker and generally where we are picking at the end of the 1st round it's a little harder to get these guys. Tell me who would you have drafted at those spots without the use of hindsight like saying in 99 we should have drafted Brady. I have questioned Ozzie and some of his picks but they usually prove me wrong. 

[GrimCoconut]

The Ravens seem to be doing poor in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. KO, Williams, Torrey & Jernigan worked out but Upshaw, Brown, Brooks haven't and Maxx Williams may but he's still a question mark and Correa hasn't yet shown enough even if he needed develop. These misses have arguably hurt us the most and I'd consider trading up from our first rounder to secure an elite talent using these picks where I was once very much against it. Ozzie and Co need to do a better job of scouting guys because Upshaw wasn't a guy I liked when we took him over others. 

[mmcclend]

8 minutes ago, Wildabeast88 said:

It depends what is your definition of a playmaker Kruger the rotational pass rusher in 2012 had 9 sacks 1 Int 1FF 1FR. McPhee in his last year had 8.5 sacks. Before Webb's 2nd ACL he was rated as the number 2 CB in the league behind Revis since then no he has not been the same but he was a playmaker. Torrey was a solid player playmaker. I was getting crushed on these boards when I was talking up Ezekiel Elliot as better than Gurley which he is by the way but I get it he was gone and Stanley was a good pick not sexy a playmaker but how different would Ravens history be if we went playmaker Lawrence Phillips overJonathan Ogden. I get your point  but not every player is a playmaker and generally where we are picking at the end of the 1st round it's a little harder to get these guys. Tell me who would you have drafted at those spots without the use of hindsight like saying in 99 we should have drafted Brady. I have questioned Ozzie and some of his picks but they usually prove me wrong. 

Great points. My definition of a playmaker is somebody who can win his one on one consistently. Webb also is a big reason our cap situation is screwed. He had one, maybe 2 good years and since then all I've seen is people saying he's washed up. What has he even done this year? I never see him. We drafted ray Lewis and reed at the end of the first. playmakers are drafted in every single round, not just the first so that excuse doesn't work. How many playmakers on our team right now have we drafted? If Kruger was sooooo much of a playmaker why was he only rotational? Wasn't he behind upshaw who everybody here hated. 2nd round pick by the way 

Edited October 15, 2016 by mmcclend

[mmcclend]

Just now, GrimCoconut said:

The Ravens seem to be doing poor in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. KO, Williams, Torrey & Jernigan worked out but Upshaw, Brown, Brooks haven't and Maxx Williams may but he's still a question mark and Correa hasn't yet shown enough even if he needed develop. These misses have arguably hurt us the most and I'd consider trading up from our first rounder to secure an elite talent using these picks where I was once very much against it. Ozzie and Co need to do a better job of scouting guys because Upshaw wasn't a guy I liked when we took him over others. 

Thank you, my point exactly. The more we miss, the more we become a team who's going to start buying their team. It has started this year. 

[Wildabeast88]

6 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

The Ravens seem to be doing poor in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. KO, Williams, Torrey & Jernigan worked out but Upshaw, Brown, Brooks haven't and Maxx Williams may but he's still a question mark and Correa hasn't yet shown enough even if he needed develop. These misses have arguably hurt us the most and I'd consider trading up from our first rounder to secure an elite talent using these picks where I was once very much against it. Ozzie and Co need to do a better job of scouting guys because Upshaw wasn't a guy I liked when we took him over others. 

Every team misses I get it 2012 and 2013 sucked royally. I feel 2014 was a solid draft many starters I think it's to early to judge 2015 Perriman and Williams have very small sample sizes due to injury and I think this years draft was good 2 starters on O-line Tavon Young has been a nice find and Dixon once healthy could be a good back 3 of those guys were 4th rounders so our scouting isn't that bad. 

[GrimCoconut]

2 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

Thank you, my point exactly. The more we miss, the more we become a team who's going to start buying their team. It has started this year. 

It's a fair point. I'm not sure if Ozzie is to blame or if it's on the coaches for not developing guys. It's a chicken and egg situation where you don't know which one is first. I disagree that we're buying a team. We've gone after big free agents before like Leach. Ozzie actually fills needs in free agency and typically drafts BPA need in the draft. We really haven't been bad at drafting just not getting the easy ones in the second and third 

[mmcclend]

1 minute ago, Wildabeast88 said:

Every team misses I get it 2012 and 2013 sucked royally. I feel 2014 was a solid draft many starters I think it's to early to judge 2015 Perriman and Williams have very small sample sizes due to injury and I think this years draft was good 2 starters on O-line Tavon Young has been a nice find and Dixon once healthy could be a good back 3 of those guys were 4th rounders so our scouting isn't that bad. 

True, maybe our skill position scouts just aren't that good. This past draft was pretty good but we had 9 or so picks. You better hit at least 3. Do you think we are below, equal, or ahead of the steelers and bengals in the talent department? 

[mmcclend]

2 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

It's a fair point. I'm not sure if Ozzie is to blame or if it's on the coaches for not developing guys. It's a chicken and egg situation where you don't know which one is first. I disagree that we're buying a team. We've gone after big free agents before like Leach. Ozzie actually fills needs in free agency and typically drafts BPA need in the draft. We really haven't been bad at drafting just not getting the easy ones in the second and third 

I think it's that we bank on having as many draft picks as possible with confidence that we can hit on some late round talent. It's worked in the past but lately hasn't. Ozzie will cherish a 5th or 6th round pick that we could trade to get a star. When that pick becomes serviceable it works out, but when it's Robert Myers or Reynolds ehh.  Usually stacking picks has worked for us but lately not as much. 

[Ravensfan23]

16 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

Thank you for actually making a point my man. Very intelligent also I must add. I agree we've gotten some starters from the drafts. How else would we have starters though? My main point though is how many are PLAYMAKERS. Starter doesn't always equal playmaker. I guess what I'm saying is how many draft picks do we have that can constantly win one on one battles? We've even overlooked playmakers that have actually been in our backyard (diggs, boy could we use him), yannick ngakoui(boy could we use him too. I think he sacked flacco twice) those are 5th round playmakers who were right at Maryland. And if Sean Davis(also Maryland)becomes a star in Pitt I'm going to lose my mind!

The problem with this is it's hindsight. I'll give you the poor draft classes, no getting away from those. But to say we could use Diggs, well of course we could but where do you draft him and if he's on this team does Trestman use him the way he's used with the Vikes? Diggs was drafted at the top of the 5th. Could you have drafted him at the back of the 4th instead of Tray Walker? Maybe but there's no way of knowing what type of player the deceased Walker would have been and finding that outside CB is still an issue now for the defense. 

The same goes for Ngakoui. He was drafted one spot before BK who was injured early so we don't know what he is or isn't, but a we also came away with Judon in this past draft who looks like a player. I think we can look at every good player around the league and wonder how good it would be to have them. But we have to factor in everything. Maybe the Ravens could have traded up in he 3rd round to get Ngakoui, but what if you had to trade the pick that landed Young to get him? 

It hasn't shown itself yet and we can only hope Trestman was indeed the biggest issue, but I think Perriman, Moore, Maxx and Dixon are all playmakers for this offense moving forward. They have to be used correctly. Defensively I think you have Timmy and CJ as clear difference makers and maybe Young and Judon as players as well. 

I think the biggest issue is the Ravens have been good enough to make the playoffs with not so talented teams and it's forced them to draft towards the back of most draft classes. So while other teams are getting top talent at the top or mid rounds of the draft, teams like the Ravens, Pats, Steelers and others are really held to the fire in terms of "finding" talent.  In most cases teams who are consistently going deep into the Playoffs have a really good QB and probably 1 playmaker by the definition you seems to give. Outside of Brady and Gronk who do the Pats have that can really take over a game? You have those two guys and a ton of role players. We saw this past draft what the Ravens can do if given a chance to draft high or even midway the draft. 

You made a great point by point out that guys like Ray, Ed, Suggs and Ngata allowed average guys to play better, Right now we don't have those players, but I think we have the potential for those players with some of these young guys. We just gotta see how well they perform. 

[mmcclend]

1 minute ago, The Raven said:

Do the Patriots have any "playmakers" (whatever the hell that subjective term actually means) other than Gronk?

I'll wait as long as it takes.

Huh? lol Brady, Jamie Collins, Malcolm butler, Edelman, McCourty, pat Chung, Hightower, even Logan Ryan who is rated the best tackling cb in the league just to name a few. If you think we've outdrafted the patriots I doubt you watch any other team besides the Ravens. But then again your name is "The Raven" so it's probably true. 

[GrimCoconut]

3 minutes ago, Wildabeast88 said:

Every team misses I get it 2012 and 2013 sucked royally. I feel 2014 was a solid draft many starters I think it's to early to judge 2015 Perriman and Williams have very small sample sizes due to injury and I think this years draft was good 2 starters on O-line Tavon Young has been a nice find and Dixon once healthy could be a good back 3 of those guys were 4th rounders so our scouting isn't that bad. 

Definitely true but I feel like we used to be better there, although I could be wrong, but it also seems like some other teams are better there than us. Then again I could be wrong there, too. Jernigan and Mosley made the 2014 Draft great and even then they were well liked picks. Jernigan took some time but the potential was always there. Perriman and Williams I agree it's too early and I'm optimistic about  Perriman since he's still coming back from the injury. That doesn't mean we couldn't do much better in the second and third rounds because we can 

[mmcclend]

6 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

The problem with this is it's hindsight. I'll give you the poor draft classes, no getting away from those. But to say we could use Diggs, well of course we could but where do you draft him and if he's on this team does Trestman use him the way he's used with the Vikes? Diggs was drafted at the top of the 5th. Could you have drafted him at the back of the 4th instead of Tray Walker? Maybe but there's no way of knowing what type of player the deceased Walker would have been and finding that outside CB is still an issue now for the defense. 

The same goes for Ngakoui. He was drafted one spot before BK who was injured early so we don't know what he is or isn't, but a we also came away with Judon in this past draft who looks like a player. I think we can look at every good player around the league and wonder how good it would be to have them. But we have to factor in everything. Maybe the Ravens could have traded up in he 3rd round to get Ngakoui, but what if you had to trade the pick that landed Young to get him? 

It hasn't shown itself yet and we can only hope Trestman was indeed the biggest issue, but I think Perriman, Moore, Maxx and Dixon are all playmakers for this offense moving forward. They have to be used correctly. Defensively I think you have Timmy and CJ as clear difference makers and maybe Young and Judon as players as well. 

I think the biggest issue is the Ravens have been good enough to make the playoffs with not so talented teams and it's forced them to draft towards the back of most draft classes. So while other teams are getting top talent at the top or mid rounds of the draft, teams like the Ravens, Pats, Steelers and others are really held to the fire in terms of "finding" talent.  In most cases teams who are consistently going deep into the Playoffs have a really good QB and probably 1 playmaker by the definition you seems to give. Outside of Brady and Gronk who do the Pats have that can really take over a game? You have those two guys and a ton of role players. We saw this past draft what the Ravens can do if given a chance to draft high or even midway the draft. 

You made a great point by point out that guys like Ray, Ed, Suggs and Ngata allowed average guys to play better, Right now we don't have those players, but I think we have the potential for those players with some of these young guys. We just gotta see how well they perform. 

Nice. The issue I have though is we have to hope our guys become playmakers. When people argue with me about our playmakers they say Dixon could be, Tavon should be, Judon can be. I agree with tavon and Judon but are we sure? They won't even suit Judon for whatever reason. Now, me bringing up diggs and yannick is only to show that they were RIGHT THERE and our scouts missed on them or something. Kind of like we had first dibs on them. I'm not using hindsight for every good player we've missed but to Miss on both of those MD guy sucks. And again for the pats, I've seen Brady take over clearly. Edelman takes over consistently. Jamie Collins would be the best player on our team(I love cj like everybody else but he's not better than Jamie Collins). Donte Hightower is a star as well. Malcolm butler sure did take over the Super Bowl. 

[Wildabeast88]

11 minutes ago, mmcclend said:

True, maybe our skill position scouts just aren't that good. This past draft was pretty good but we had 9 or so picks. You better hit at least 3. Do you think we are below, equal, or ahead of the steelers and bengals in the talent department? 

Skill level behind but I feel our last 3 classes have been good and deep and if Perriman and Maxx can pan out our whole view of that class changes because the O- line and D-line are those sexy picks that most people judge. However we must draft pretty well because teams constantly overpay for our Free Agents which Is why we have led the league in comp picks so these guys must be good or re perceived as good. The amount of FAs lost takes away from the playmaker deal. 

[Cillmatic]

This is extremely over blown.

[mmcclend]

4 minutes ago, Cillmatic said:

This is extremely over blown.

How so? Just because my opinion isn't biased like "The Raven"doesn't mean it's overblown. And I'm a HUGE Ravens fan. Die hard. I'm not saying we suck. We are consistently competitive but to say our talent isn't starting to fall behind is nonsense.