When will receivers step up?

[Deflated Football]

41 minutes ago, The Raven said:

The point 

________________

Your head

This is true. I must be missing something. A guy who had the dropsies in college is now having the dropsies in the NFL. That's what I'm seeing. 

[jboy19]

I was thinking it was a chemistry issue at first for the most part since Flacco wasn't practicing for most of the offseason, but there are some fundamental issues. Perriman specifically seems to fall back on "alligator arming" catches, like he did in college (was one of the reasons I really didn't like him coming out of college along with routes, etc.). Moore's drops seemed to be from a lot of miscommunications/bad routes/overthrows where he's been out of position, his hands were decent in college, but it's not surprising that he's having some issues adjusting. Wallace was never really known for his hands to begin with, succeeded mostly in Pittsburgh as a deep threat, didn't succeed in Miami and Minnesota when he was relied upon as an all-around receiver. Not sure about Aiken and SSS. My best guess is that SSS has lost a step bc of his age and Aiken just regressed. 

[flynismo]

20 minutes ago, jboy19 said:

Moore's drops seemed to be from a lot of miscommunications/bad routes/overthrows where he's been out of position

Moore's drops were straight up drops. No miscommunication, no bad route running, no poorly placed pass...he just flat out bricked them

[OUravensfan]

1 hour ago, flynismo said:

Yep, many many times over the years I've told the Flacco hating "fans" here to go watch a Saints game if they want to see what an open receiver looks like. Of course, that is just dismissed as an excuse, and Brees telepathically navigates WRs into massive holes in coverage which is what makes him elite and Flacco an overpaid scrub.

It's also funny to me that it never occurred to them (or more likely, they just choose to blatantly ignore) that Flacco wouldn't be throwing into coverage so much IF THE RECEIVERS WERE GETTING OPEN. I'm telling you, there is a direct correlation between low intelligence and being anti-Flacco.

FWIW, although it still nowhere near an acceptable rate, the receivers so far this year are doing a better job of getting open compared to years past. Probably has more to do with Wallace and Perriman being on the field than anything, but still nice to see an improvement, even if it is marginal.

And it's this dynamic that is so frustrating when dealing with my Bengal community, they see stat lines and watch AJ Green and Eifert make insane catches each week and can't correlate the impact of having that and not having that to a QB's stat sheet. 

[January J]

16 minutes ago, fluffy201 said:

 

 

46 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Moore's drops were straight up drops. No miscommunication, no bad route running, no poorly placed pass...he just flat out bricked them

Yeah Moore's drops have frustrated me a lot more than perrimans. Perriman has also made quite a few difficult ones to make up for the others. Just imagine how different the narrative would be right now regarding him if that other foot gets down. Just sucks.

[Edgar]

1 hour ago, flynismo said:

Yep, many many times over the years I've told the Flacco hating "fans" here to go watch a Saints game if they want to see what an open receiver looks like. Of course, that is just dismissed as an excuse, and Brees telepathically navigates WRs into massive holes in coverage which is what makes him elite and Flacco an overpaid scrub.

It's also funny to me that it never occurred to them (or more likely, they just choose to blatantly ignore) that Flacco wouldn't be throwing into coverage so much IF THE RECEIVERS WERE GETTING OPEN. I'm telling you, there is a direct correlation between low intelligence and being anti-Flacco.

FWIW, although it still nowhere near an acceptable rate, the receivers so far this year are doing a better job of getting open compared to years past. Probably has more to do with Wallace and Perriman being on the field than anything, but still nice to see an improvement, even if it is marginal.

Simply not true. I read that Craig and Hitchens agreed pre-debate that Flacco was no good. Also, if you go back and read your Chesterton, I think you'll be forced to conclude that he wouldn't have cared for him either.

[OUravensfan]

19 minutes ago, January J said:

 

Yeah Moore's drops have frustrated me a lot more than perrimans. Perriman has also made quite a few difficult ones to make up for the others. Just imagine how different the narrative would be right now regarding him if that other foot gets down. Just sucks.

The narrative is drastically different, we are insanely hyped if he drags that toe. Game on the line, against a top corner in an obvious need to get to the end zone scenario.

There's reasons why that loss was one of the more sickening losses I can remember. Would have been great for the kid, let's see how he responds. 

[flynismo]

10 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Simply not true. I read that Craig and Hitchens agreed pre-debate that Flacco was no good. Also, if you go back and read your Chesterton, I think you'll be forced to conclude that he wouldn't have cared for him either.

I'm assuming this is in reference to my spot on observation that there is a direct correlation between low intelligence and being anti-Flacco?

I think it's quite fitting that of all people, you'd have chosen Craig and Hitchens, considering the subject matter of their debate. Flacco is indeed Baltimore's Jesus, and he is real. I'm really not concerned for what Chesterton's opinion of Flacco would have been either, although, as a christian apologist, and the aforementioned revelation that Flacco is Baltimore's Jesus, he'd have no recourse but to support Flacco.

See how that works?

[OUravensfan]

Mike Wallace has been disappointing with some of his drops to be honest, he's still one of our better WRs, but he's demonstrating what I already knew about him, not a true #1 complete WR that can make the tough contested catches around the full route tree. The comeback route dropped on 3rd down was AWFUL. The fourth down drop was bad, but it was a tough catch and he was hit immediately and maybe a slight miscommunication with Flacco leading him and Wallace wanting to sit in the zone.

I hate losing.

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by OUravensfan

[Edgar]

9 minutes ago, flynismo said:

I'm assuming this is in reference to my spot on observation that there is a direct correlation between low intelligence and being anti-Flacco?

I think it's quite fitting that of all people, you'd have chosen Craig and Hitchens, considering the subject matter of their debate. Flacco is indeed Baltimore's Jesus, and he is real. I'm really not concerned for what Chesterton's opinion of Flacco would have been either, although, as a christian apologist, and the aforementioned revelation that Flacco is Baltimore's Jesus, he'd have no recourse but to support Flacco.

See how that works?

Of course it's absurd.  In no universe does it logically follow that because someone finds fault in how this quarterback performs week to week that they are somehow deficient. It's just flippant on your part.

Both your claim and my initial response are silly. Mine intentionally so.

[flynismo]

5 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Of course it's absurd.  In no universe does it logically follow that because someone finds fault in how this quarterback performs week to week that they are somehow deficient. It's just flippant on your part.

Both your claim and my initial response are silly. Mine intentionally so.

And do you not think I was not being a bit tongue in cheek when I made the original comment? Not very observant of you. But my underlying point remains fully intact. It is not the conclusion they reach, but how they arrive to their conclusions that show their deficiencies.

Edited October 12, 2016 by flynismo

[Edgar]

8 minutes ago, flynismo said:

And do you not think I was not being a bit tongue in cheek when I made the original comment? Not very observant of you. But my underlying point remains fully intact. It is not the conclusion they reach, but how they arrive to their conclusions that show their deficiencies.

I thought you must have been, yes.  And then you referred to it as, " spot on", I think only moments ago...the bolded type I would still think of as more of a case by case and probably shouldn't call for generalities. Could be a matter simply of one's perspective just as often...in any case, we arrive at the same place.

 

 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

4 hours ago, OUravensfan said:

4 TDs total this year not caught for Joe. Same story every year. Separation is another thing that is glaringly flawed here when you watch other games, the degree of difficulty on throws that Joe is consistently asked to make is insane when compared to some other QBs.

All I hear from the Flacco haters is how inaccurate he is, did you see how perfect the two throws to Perriman were? Did you see Mike Wallace drop a 4th down pass?

it really is upsetting how drops have followed Flacco his entire career, it is literally insane.

BTW, we're 5-0 if drops are caught, that's our QB.

If youre talking about the 4th down play against the Redskins... i cant put that on Wallace. He got open in a hole, and Joe threw him right into the hit. 

The receiver there is looking for the ball and is relying on the QB to put him where is needed to make the catch or gain YAC. That throw shouldve been right on his numbers or even toward his back shoulder to stop his route in that space and sit down. Joe threw him forward and nearly got him killed. There arent many guys holding onto that one.

But, aside from that I agree with you. Im a big Joe supporter. His protection has been down right awful the past 2 games especially. The game plan and play calling have been more bland than a bowl of plain white rice. The run game has been abandoned even when working, so any possible relief from constant pressure has just been ignored by the OC...

But Joe hasnt been anywhere near as good as he can be. There's a lot holding him back, but he has been part of the problem. I do think he's the biggest part of the solution though.

[flynismo]

10 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

If youre talking about the 4th down play against the Redskins... i cant put that on Wallace. He got open in a hole, and Joe threw him right into the hit. 

Are you talking about the final play of the game where it literally bounced off of Wallace's hands and fell incomplete?

Wide receivers always say "we're getting hit no matter what, so we may as well catch the ball"

Edited October 12, 2016 by flynismo

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

1 hour ago, flynismo said:

Are you talking about the final play of the game where it literally bounced off of Wallace's hands and fell incomplete?

Wide receivers always say "we're getting hit no matter what, so we may as well catch the ball"

Oh I know that... but if Joe sat him down with a slightly back shoulder throw or even right on him he's not getting hit as hes making the catch. He has a chance to secure it beforehand or even get down before the hit all together.

Its not entirely on Joe - yea, maybe the catch shouldve still be made. BUT Joe couldve made it a helluva lot easier on him.

 

I guess I'll put it this way... if we're just gonna say that a vet WR is expected to make the catch while getting absolutely destroyed over the middle, then it should be fair to expect our SB MVP QB to not throw his receivers into bigger hits over the middle.

Im all for saying Wallace should come down with that, but if thats the case then i only think its fair to say Joe shouldnt have put that ball further into pressure. And quite frankly I have higher expectations of Joe than I do mostly anyone else on the team. I know he's darn well capable of putting that ball on a dime exactly where it needs to be. Is that entirely fair to expect that with the game on the line? Maybe not. But if we're going to expect the WR to make the catch, its absolutely fair to expect a better throw too.

But thats what happens when you become a SB MVP and make the big bucks. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[PurpleCity5]

Steve is very banged up. I know its a pain tolerance thing but he had to leave last game and didn't come back. That's uncharacteristic of him. I personally believe that he will be active but on reduced snaps. Same goes for Mike.

I know I've thrown his name out so many times, but this has to be Breshad's break out game. I think he's going to be the #1 going into this game and will definitely see his deep passes his way while contributing on the short/intermediate routes. Extra rep will also give Flacco a guy he can build chemistry with.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

6 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Steve is very banged up. I know its a pain tolerance thing but he had to leave last game and didn't come back. That's uncharacteristic of him. I personally believe that he will be active but on reduced snaps. Same goes for Mike.

I know I've thrown his name out so many times, but this has to be Breshad's break out game. I think he's going to be the #1 going into this game and will definitely see his deep passes his way while contributing on the short/intermediate routes. Extra rep will also give Flacco a guy he can build chemistry with.

I almost hopes its the case that we're forced to go with Breshad, Aiken and Moore as our top 3 with SSS and Wallace sprinkled in. I think having to rely on those guys will force them to step up in a big way. Getting rep after rep will go a long way. We saw the difference in Aikens play between when he was used sporadically to when he was counted on to be the #1. Night and day. And i think we'd see similar with Breshad especailly if he was Joe's go to on most plays.

And that'd only help in the future when Sr and wallace are back at 100%, knowing we can rely on really any 1 of 3 or 4 guys to step up and carry the offense if needed.

[PurpleCity5]

Just now, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I almost hopes its the case that we're forced to go with Breshad, Aiken and Moore as our top 3 with SSS and Wallace sprinkled in. I think having to rely on those guys will force them to step up in a big way. Getting rep after rep will go a long way. We saw the difference in Aikens play between when he was used sporadically to when he was counted on to be the #1. Night and day. And i think we'd see similar with Breshad especailly if he was Joe's go to on most plays.

And that'd only help in the future when Sr and wallace are back at 100%, knowing we can rely on really any 1 of 3 or 4 guys to step up and carry the offense if needed.

I don't know about Aiken. He seems desperate to make a play but he's blatant sometimes when trying to make plays and it costs him and the team. Personally, I think he's in need of some consistency, for sure he'll get some reps his way. I just would feel more confident leaning towards Perriman right now. He can make plays on short/intermediate plays and gives you something special deep. I would also look to get Pitta and Gilmore involved as well. I liked what I saw from Gilmore last game. I hope to see more two TE sets. 

[allblackraven]

3 hours ago, January J said:

 

Yeah Moore's drops have frustrated me a lot more than perrimans. Perriman has also made quite a few difficult ones to make up for the others. Just imagine how different the narrative would be right now regarding him if that other foot gets down. Just sucks.

Remember Marlon Brown dragging a foot vs Vikings, in a snow? Didn't turn out great for anybody.

[Cillmatic]

Our WR is really not doing ANYTHING, he hasn't made anyone better.

[flynismo]

3 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Oh I know that... but if Joe sat him down with a slightly back shoulder throw or even right on him he's not getting hit as hes making the catch. He has a chance to secure it beforehand or even get down before the hit all together.

Its not entirely on Joe - yea, maybe the catch shouldve still be made. BUT Joe couldve made it a helluva lot easier on him.

 

I guess I'll put it this way... if we're just gonna say that a vet WR is expected to make the catch while getting absolutely destroyed over the middle, then it should be fair to expect our SB MVP QB to not throw his receivers into bigger hits over the middle.

I don't see how Joe could have done what you suggested. Keep in mind that Wallace had a DB in his back pocket the entire route. If Joe does not lead him the way he did, there's a high chance the DB that was trailing just sticks his arm out and swats it. If he does lead him the way he did, yeah there's a defender there, but at least Wallace has a chance to make the play...and he did have the chance, he just couldn't hold onto the ball. I personally wouldn't have done anything different there.

Edited October 12, 2016 by flynismo

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

2 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I don't know about Aiken. He seems desperate to make a play but he's blatant sometimes when trying to make plays and it costs him and the team. Personally, I think he's in need of some consistency, for sure he'll get some reps his way. I just would feel more confident leaning towards Perriman right now. He can make plays on short/intermediate plays and gives you something special deep. I would also look to get Pitta and Gilmore involved as well. I liked what I saw from Gilmore last game. I hope to see more two TE sets. 

Multiple TE sets are something this offense needs bad. We've got the diversity at the position to make it unpredictable and multi-faceted... why it hasnt been implemented when we put so many resources toward the position recently makes no sense at all.

Signing Watson, getting Pitta back, recent draft picks Gillmore, Maxx and Waller (who was recently activated and converted from WR) and now Dan Brown who was converted as well. We're in essence carrying 5 TEs on the roster right now, 6 if you count Juice... and rarely have more than one on the field.

Seems silly.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

4 minutes ago, flynismo said:

I don't see how Joe could have done what you suggested. Keep in mind that Wallace had a DB in his back pocket the entire route. If Joe does not lead him the way he did, there's a high chance the DB that was trailing just sticks his arm out and swats it. If he does lead him the way he did, yeah there's a defender there, but at least Wallace has a chance to make the play...and he did have the chance, he just couldn't hold onto the ball. I personally wouldn't have done anything different there.

I dont see that at all. The defender behind is way behind. Yards. With a strike (which Joe threw) no way that defender makes a play.

 

EDIT: just rewatched for clarity. Theres a defender like 5 yards shallow of him and a yard or two behind him. Hes not making a play with similar trajectory.

The defender behind him is like 6-7 yds behind and has no prayer of doing anything but watch a simple completion.

Theres a defender beyond him by 4-5 yards. And theres the guy who crushes wallace a yard or two in front of him. Hes by far the closest defender.

Edited October 12, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[flynismo]

Just now, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I dont see that at all. The defender behind is way behind. Yards. With a strike (which Joe threw) no way that defender makes a play.

Do you have a video link we can see? I don't remember him being that far behind, and cant find a link anywhere

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

4 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Do you have a video link we can see? I don't remember him being that far behind, and cant find a link anywhere

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/Full_Game_Highlights_Redskins_vs_Ravens/c56cd0c1-5236-48e3-adaf-923d3449b317

basically at the 4:00 minute mark the play starts.

And the defender underneath who's the next closest to making a play is coming off the underneath route, doubtful he reacts fast enough to make a play even if the ball is thrown further inside.

Its all subjective of course. I just personally think if Joe puts him right down instead of leading him its a much easier grab. And i expect my QB to be able to do that. I know he's capable. The subjective question i guess is whether or not thats what should have been done. I say yes.

Edited October 12, 2016 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[jimmypowder]

10 hours ago, Cillmatic said:

They won't step up their game until they're forced to... Just look at sammie coates, it's time to put Perriman as the #3 and give him as many snaps as possible.

 

Sadly, our incompetent coaching staff doesn't even know how to handle Judon. After Perriman's drop I'd bet that they won't even give him more than 5 snaps next week. 

Correction:One drop for a td and failure to drag the second foot for a game winning td. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by jimmypowder

[flynismo]

28 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/Full_Game_Highlights_Redskins_vs_Ravens/c56cd0c1-5236-48e3-adaf-923d3449b317

basically at the 4:00 minute mark the play starts.

And the defender underneath who's the next closest to making a play is coming off the underneath route, doubtful he reacts fast enough to make a play even if the ball is thrown further inside.

Its all subjective of course. I just personally think if Joe puts him right down instead of leading him its a much easier grab. And i expect my QB to be able to do that. I know he's capable. The subjective question i guess is whether or not thats what should have been done. I say yes.

I just finally found one here too https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2016/10/11/a-closer-look-at-three-clutch-plays-will-compton-made-to-help-beat-the-ravens/

Actually the DB I mentioned just dropped into zone...was the underneath guy that was the problem. If you see where he is on the field when Wallace broke to the inside, I think it looks like he's the reason Joe lead Wallace. It's hard to say from that angle if he could have actually made a play, but I do think he was close enough to be the reason Joe didn't try spotting the ball as you recommended.

Regardless of our opinions there, I do get your point; there are passes that he needs to make that require a little extra something like you were talking about.

Edited October 12, 2016 by flynismo

[FlocksGottaFeed]

8 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

The only real difference I can think of is that the ball is bigger and that Joe throws extremely fast. He's easily able to throw over 50 MPH, which is insane for a football throw.

He's able to deliver some darts that'd make some hands sore. I think it'll take time to adjust to some of the over the middle throws.

Still frustrated by Moore and Perriman dropping two easy touchdowns that were not darts, but the rest I find reasonable.

Most fan bases with a rookie and a 2nd year player in his 1st season (rookie year) would be totally content with 1 drop after 5 games.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2016/

Granted our offense hasn't been productive enough by any means of the imagination, but focusing on 1 drop or 2 directed at the rookies isn't a very good or honest assessment. The OC change may rectify our offensive ineptitude or not, but most would have to honestly make the assessment of our receiving core to be above average (based on recorded stats). According to these relative, professional, documented findings - our team averages less than 1 drop per activated targeted player in team receptions.  

[BmoreBird22]

45 minutes ago, FlocksGottaFeed said:

Most fan bases with a rookie and a 2nd year player in his 1st season (rookie year) would be totally content with 1 drop after 5 games.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2016/

Granted our offense hasn't been productive enough by any means of the imagination, but focusing on 1 drop or 2 directed at the rookies isn't a very good or honest assessment. The OC change may rectify our offensive ineptitude or not, but most would have to honestly make the assessment of our receiving core to be above average (based on recorded stats). According to these relative, professional, documented findings - our team averages less than 1 drop per activated targeted player in team receptions.  

I can guarantee it isn't one drop between the two of them.

[OUravensfan]

 

4 hours ago, allblackraven said:

Remember Marlon Brown dragging a foot vs Vikings, in a snow? Didn't turn out great for anybody.

I will be reserved when a rookie has 7 TDs for us because of Marlon Brown