Merged: Marty Mornhinweg and the New Offense

[trevorsteadman]

Just now, wizard1 said:

Wrong. Taylor has an 88 QB rating and Flacco has an 80. Nuff said

And QBR is an accurate rating how?

The offensive scheme killed the entire Ravens' offense. We can compare stats all you want but by far Flacco wins. 

[steelcityraven]

My goal is simply to have a OC who will take the handcuffs off of Joe a little.  Joe is a veteran and needs to have a little more freedom.   Marty needs to simply utilize all of the weapons that we have.  I feel like Trestman was afraid to implement some of our weapons (Perriman, Moore, etc.)   Hope to see marty get these guys more involved, create mismatches and keep defenses off balance.  There is a natural progression in play calling and plays should build to setting up what the defense is giving us.  I feel like Trestman missed this point and simply tried to force every thing.  He don't have to re-invent the wheel just be a little more creative in utilizing the weapons we have and attacking a defense where they are weak. 

[wizard1]

5 minutes ago, trevorsteadman said:

And QBR is an accurate rating how?

The offensive scheme killed the entire Ravens' offense. We can compare stats all you want but by far Flacco wins. 

Well jeez-I'm not sure how else to rate a QB? Taylor has 9 TD's and 2 interceptions--Flacco has 5 TD's and 4 interceptions? Anything else?

[trevorsteadman]

2 minutes ago, steelcityraven said:

My goal is simply to have a OC who will take the handcuffs off of Joe a little.  Joe is a veteran and needs to have a little more freedom.   Marty needs to simply utilize all of the weapons that we have.  I feel like Trestman was afraid to implement some of our weapons (Perriman, Moore, etc.)   Hope to see marty get these guys more involved, create mismatches and keep defenses off balance.  There is a natural progression in play calling and plays should build to setting up what the defense is giving us.  I feel like Trestman missed this point and simply tried to force every thing.  He don't have to re-invent the wheel just be a little more creative in utilizing the weapons we have and attacking a defense where they are weak. 

Remember we started coming back in the Cleveland game because Joe took over and started calling the plays and told Trestman they needed to start throwing downfield. Joe knows what is going on during the game and we do not give him enough credit. He took over in the 2013 playoffs and that resulted in a super bowl. Joe can control the game he is one of the best game managers in the business if we allow him to be.

[wizard1]

2 hours ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

To get the discussion back on track since one of the 2 members of the forum who can derail who threads singlehandedly did so again. I'm a little nervous. I expect us to be rusty with the immediate change which is why I don't see the game vs the giants a win tbh. Which will enrage most members but I'll understand. It took a game for Caldwell to kick in and he was better than Cam especially during the playoffs. 

 

I'm curious as to how he'll use the three headed monster we have. West/Allen/Dixon are all very solid and talented. I think both Dixon and West have the potential to be feature backs(a very good problem to have), and Allen is excellent with RB screens. I know in Philly he was prone to using those so I'm excited there. He also excellently utilized Desean Jackson's speed and was able to adaquately get targets for Brent Celek(who's been grossly underused for the past few seasons). 

 

I think he has potential but at this point, I'm hoping we can go get an actual Kubiak disciple at some point if at all possible(I doubt it though). Or like a Mike McCoy if he's fired. Maybe a Ken Wisenhunt if theres a total regime change in San Diego which wouldnt surprised me.

 

Btw. Wisenhunt and McCoy. Both very smart offensively. Bad head coaches. See where I'm going here?

And why wouldn't you think there will be a total regime change here as well?

[MTRavensFan]

2 minutes ago, wizard1 said:

And why wouldn't you think there will be a total regime change here as well?

Because nobody sees that happening but you.

[rmcjacket23]

3 minutes ago, wizard1 said:

And why wouldn't you think there will be a total regime change here as well?

1. Because there's really never been one here, and there's nothing to suggest Steve is interested in one. Firing the HC and the coaching staff isn't a regime change... its a coaching change.

2. Regime changes are typically designed for teams who have multiple consecutive poor seasons.

 

[rmcjacket23]

30 minutes ago, wizard1 said:

Wrong. Taylor has an 88 QB rating and Flacco has an 80. Nuff said

And you have no idea what either of those numbers mean.

[JoeyFlex5]

37 minutes ago, wizard1 said:

You are obviously one who doesn't learn by his mistakes. Let's see have you ever predicted one thing that was either correct or even remotely accurate.

Yes I have. Wentz being superior to Goff, predicted Lewis to win the starting guard job over urschel which was an extrmely unpopular opinion. Forsett would be cut at some point this year, also unpopular. Zach orr and jernigan would both break out. Weddle would be the best FA signing in a long while. Hester would be a bust. Mike Wallace was not washed up and was in the wrong system. I predicted our secondary to be the most improved part of our team which is right in a way. 

I've predicted plenty. You on the other hand predicted a bad season last year and was right, you've been wrong about everything else.

[wizard1]

Really? That's hilarious. Harbaugh has had serious questions marks for more than a year. In fact rumblings started during training camp last year when he totally lied about the Perriman injury fiasco. But let's fast forward to this year. Articles as recently as last night have postured that Trestman's firing and replacement with Morningweg could be an attempt to plug a leak in a boat that's already waterlogged. If you don't believe that Harbaugh is on the hot seat then I have no idea what you can possibly be thinking. I believe if we stop Har-ball in Baltimore our team will immediately get better.

Edited October 11, 2016 by wizard1
spelling

[rmcjacket23]

4 minutes ago, wizard1 said:

Really? That's hilarious. Harbaugh has had serious questions marks for more than a year. In fact rumblings started during training camp last year when he totally lied about the Perriman injury fiasco. But let's fast forward to this year. Articles as recently as last night have postured that Trestman's firing and replacement with Morningweh could be an attempt to plug a leak in a boat that's already waterlogged. If you don't believe that Harbaugh is on the hot seat then I have no idea what you can possibly be thinking. I believe if we stop Har-ball in Baltimore our team will immediately get better.

Rumblings from who? Fans? The people that FO personnel never, ever listen to when it comes to personnel decisions?

Fanboard rumblings don't matter. Certainly laughable to think that any fan thought that he was on the "hot seat" because he allegedly lies about Perriman and hurt some feelings of some of the child-like fans that actually care about that sort of thing.

Rumblings in your own head aren't real bud. You can choose to ignore them all you want, but all it does is weaken your fan card.

Edited October 11, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[jazz1988]

2 hours ago, Sami84 said:

would this have happened though if we squeaked out these two wins? Did CJ mosley/Perriman cost trestman his job? OR was Harbs going to do the right thing regardless?

If The Ravens had won the game against The Redskins it's possible that Marc Trestman would have still been around but at the same time he could have been fired  just the same. The Ravens  offense went up against a  Redskins defense that isn't good and even with out Steve Smith the talent they  had on offense should have been way more productive than they were on sunday. Yes Perriman needs to play better and CJ Mosley messed up big time by fumbling the ball  but at the same time even if we would have won the game it still stands that The Ravens offense should have been way more productive than it was .

 

What's the point in have all these investments on offense and not see the expected production out of them? Mike Wallace can make plays on short routes but he's been bought in here to be a deep threat. How can a defense respect the speed if they know the  speed isn't going to be used? Linebackers don't even have to worry about stopping the run because they know Trestman isn't going to run the ball enough  or often. 

[allblackraven]

We are up for some fun with Marty:

 

[OUravensfan]

1 hour ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

I'm pretty sure I could go back to posts before our sb run and see that you were heavily calling for us to bench flacco.

 

someone get on it!

I was thinking the same thing, I remember @wizard1 as one of the original anti-Flaccos lol. I was pleasantly surprised to see you change your tune?

[Ravensfan23]

Can't say i'm happy with Marty as OC, but will definitely gave him a chance. I was one of the guys who supported Trestman, mainly because I hate to see anyone fired, but also because I tend to put more onus on players to deliver because every play is great on a black board but it's the players who have to make it work. 

Will Marty make Zuttah block better, will he fix all the dropped passes, will he get Flacco to stop throwing off his back foot? For me it's simple, the running game improved when you got rid of Forsett because he wasn't playing well. I will say I was a fan of Trestman up until this past game. I was so excited during the first drive thinking the run game would lead the way and the playaction would crush the spirits of the skins defense. I just knew when Norman went out of the game we would attack that secondary with more combo routes to force them to communicate more, but we didn't and I was hot. 

However where I will say Marty will get guys going is that whenever a guy is fired, others start to step there game up.  Marty or Marc, for me it boils down to the players. The defense is playing better because players are playing better. The offense is gonna have to buckle down and just get better on offense, but if you can give this defense a big lead, they might be deadly. However it's gonna be all on the players. The scapegoat is gone, even though he had a ton to do with the struggles of the offense. Now it's on the 100M QB, it's on the 1st round WR and LT, it's on the Oline who were supposed to be better. 

I'm an optimist by nature so I'm excited to see what Marty can do, but this offense is gonna need more than a coaching change to improve. I'm sure they're hard at work. 

[wizard1]

1 minute ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Can say i'm happy with Marty as OC, but will definitely gave him a chance. I was one of the guys who supported Trestman, mainly because I hate to see anyone fired, but also because I tend to put more onus on players to deliver because every play is great on a black board but it's the players who have to make it work. 

Will Marty make Zuttah block better, will he fix all the dropped passes, will he get Flacco to stop throwing off his back foot? For me it's simple, the running game improved when you got rid of Forsett because he wasn't playing well. I will say I was a fan of Trestman up until this past game. I was so excited during the first drive thinking the run game would lead the way and the playaction would crush the spirits of the skins defense. I just knew when Norman went out of the game we would attack that secondary with more combo routes to force them to communicate more, but we didn't and I was hot. 

However where I will say Marty will get guys going is that whenever a guy is fired, others start to step there game up.  Marty or Marc, for me it boils down to the players. The defense is playing better because players are playing better. The offense is gonna have to buckle down and just get better on offense, but if you can give this defense a big lead, they might be deadly. However it's gonna be all on the players. The scapegoat is gone, even though he had a ton to do with the struggles of the offense. Now it's on the 100M QB, it's on the 1st round WR and LT, it's on the Oline who were supposed to be better. 

I'm an optimist by nature so I'm excited to see what Marty can do, but this offense is gonna need more than a coaching change to improve. I'm sure they're hard at work. 

I agree we have a good defense but traditionally we have always had an fearsome defense but equally as perplexing is that we have traditionally had a mediocre offense. It was true under Billick who was billed as an offensive genius and it's been true under Harbaugh. It's ridiculous to see these same struggles year in and year out.

[Moderator 3]

1 hour ago, wizard1 said:

Wrong. Taylor has an 88 QB rating and Flacco has an 80. Nuff said

Tyrod's should have dropped to zero after trying to take the snap from his guard.

[flynismo]

Here's the real mystery to me.

Why is it that aside from Derrick Mason, nearly every WR we have ever brought in has struggled to get separation on a consistent basis? Boldin struggled with it, Clayton struggled, SSS struggles with it, Torrey struggled, even Perriman and his 4.2 speed is struggling. Wallace has been inconsistent with it, not nearly as bad as the others mentioned, but not doing it consistently enough either.

This screams coaching to me...but I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to back it up with,

[Sami84]

Its always been clear that flacco can only prosper with guys that make plays for him and not the other way round

guys like derrick mason, boldin and ssr

 

outside of being oldies what do they have in common..the first in particular? they know how to break routes when a play falls apart or the first read isnt there and joe can just find them and throw it up and look like he actually did anything..

[allblackraven]

2 minutes ago, flynismo said:

Here's the real mystery to me.

Why is it that aside from Derrick Mason, nearly every WR we have ever brought in has struggled to get separation on a consistent basis? Boldin struggled with it, Clayton struggled, SSS struggles with it, Torrey struggled, even Perriman and his 4.2 speed is struggling. Wallace has been inconsistent with it, not nearly as bad as the others mentioned, but not doing it consistently enough either.

This screams coaching to me...but I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to back it up with,

I had high hopes for Camp - whenever he played, he seemed to be open by miles on every route. But...

[Sami84]

1 minute ago, allblackraven said:

I had high hopes for Camp - whenever he played, he seemed to be open by miles on every route. But...

Derrick Mason was one of the greatest route runners i've ever seen. SSR isnt a shabby one either same with boldin

ive been saying that one of the biggest flaws of this FO is their obsession with speed over football IQ when selecting recievers. Not selecting diggs for instance was puzzling as he was the closest thing to amari cooper coming out of college and had that great combination of speed and great routes..

 

we dont care about routes..it's about '' can he run and jump high? ''

[wizard1]

4 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

Tyrod's should have dropped to zero after trying to take the snap from his guard.

LMAO even John Elway tried to take a snap directly under has guard in like 1982

[Ravensfan23]

2 minutes ago, wizard1 said:

I agree we have a good defense but traditionally we have always had an fearsome defense but equally as perplexing is that we have traditionally had a mediocre offense. It was true under Billick who was billed as an offensive genius and it's been true under Harbaugh. It's ridiculous to see these same struggles year in and year out.

Which is why i'm always cautious of blaming the OCs that we hire. It always seems like we hire a guy to be the OC because the guy before didn't get the job done. But we tell the new guy he has to stick to the "Ravens Way" of doing things and as long as he ground and pound is apart of the offense the organization is happy because we play in the rough and rugged AFCN. The only problem is none of the others teams in this division actually plays this way. That's why I had hope for Trestman because he seemed to be the one guy who told Ozzie, Harbs and company to go shove it. You paid your franchise QB like one of the game's best so i'm gonna run the offense through him. Unfortunately that wasn't really the case with Trestman. 

I honestly feel like the Ravens are stuck in the 2000s on offense. Score 17-24 points and allow the defense to do the rest, while other teams play as if they want to score 35-40 per game. I hope things change with Marty, but as optimistic as I am, i'm in a wait and see state. 

[Sami84]

Just now, Ravensfan23 said:

Which is why i'm always cautious of blaming the OCs that we hire. It always seems like we hire a guy to be the OC because the guy before didn't get the job done. But we tell the new guy he has to stick to the "Ravens Way" of doing things and as long as he ground and pound is apart of the offense the organization is happy because we play in the rough and rugged AFCN. The only problem is none of the others teams in this division actually plays this way. That's why I had hope for Trestman because he seemed to be the one guy who told Ozzie, Harbs and company to go shove it. You paid your franchise QB like one of the game's best so i'm gonna run the offense through him. Unfortunately that wasn't really the case with Trestman. 

I honestly feel like the Ravens are stuck in the 2000s on offense. Score 17-24 points and allow the defense to do the rest, while other teams play as if they want to score 35-40 per game. I hope things change with Marty, but as optimistic as I am, i'm in a wait and see state. 

 

frankly if we had a young adalius thomas opposite of suggs ( and lets say he was younger) we'd have won the last two games easy. Suggs might have 4 sacks but hes struggling for consistant pressure. Dumervil looks old..it happened with robert mathis..za'darius smith is taking the mantle of courtney upshaw and this isnt a good thing. this FO needs to get judon on the field. As for correa he isnt a pass rusher at the NFL level.

[wizard1]

8 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Which is why i'm always cautious of blaming the OCs that we hire. It always seems like we hire a guy to be the OC because the guy before didn't get the job done. But we tell the new guy he has to stick to the "Ravens Way" of doing things and as long as he ground and pound is apart of the offense the organization is happy because we play in the rough and rugged AFCN. The only problem is none of the others teams in this division actually plays this way. That's why I had hope for Trestman because he seemed to be the one guy who told Ozzie, Harbs and company to go shove it. You paid your franchise QB like one of the game's best so i'm gonna run the offense through him. Unfortunately that wasn't really the case with Trestman. 

I honestly feel like the Ravens are stuck in the 2000s on offense. Score 17-24 points and allow the defense to do the rest, while other teams play as if they want to score 35-40 per game. I hope things change with Marty, but as optimistic as I am, i'm in a wait and see state. 

I do agree with you but have a major sticking point here. John Harbaugh is the HC therefore everything flows through him. He is the one responsible for the whole picture and if that picture is fragmented he has to be held accountable just the same as he is lauded when our team wins. He has had 4 OCs in his tenure so far. Granted 2 of them went on to become HC's . This is not a recipe for offensive success. You are right this isn't the defensive dogfight division it once was. It has become a finesse division with some really good offenses and we have to keep up with them or we are going to be left behind.

[jazz1988]

 

9 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Which is why i'm always cautious of blaming the OCs that we hire. It always seems like we hire a guy to be the OC because the guy before didn't get the job done. But we tell the new guy he has to stick to the "Ravens Way" of doing things and as long as he ground and pound is apart of the offense the organization is happy because we play in the rough and rugged AFCN. The only problem is none of the others teams in this division actually plays this way. That's why I had hope for Trestman because he seemed to be the one guy who told Ozzie, Harbs and company to go shove it. You paid your franchise QB like one of the game's best so i'm gonna run the offense through him. Unfortunately that wasn't really the case with Trestman. 

I honestly feel like the Ravens are stuck in the 2000s on offense. Score 17-24 points and allow the defense to do the rest, while other teams play as if they want to score 35-40 per game. I hope things change with Marty, but as optimistic as I am, i'm in a wait and see state. 

The issue with Trestman is pretty similar to what The Steelers had with Todd Haley . Todd Haley was running a dink and dunk offense during his first fews seasons with  The Steelers and Big Ben didn't like it at all and made it known to Todd Haley . I think I  even saw reports  that Haley  and Big Ben weren't on the same page at first and also wasn't getting along .Unlike Marc Trestman, Todd Haley actually catered his offense to his quarterback and start calling more plays that fit his strength and to my understanding Big Ben and Todd Haley relationship has been better ever since .

 

I don't think The Ravens are completely stuck in  The 2000's days  when it comes to the offense even though teams like The Broncos , Seahawks, and Panthers have proven that philosophy still works especially if the team has a  great defense but I think they overall want a offense that they can see Flacco truly flourishing in for many years to come.  This year it seem like the offense lack  direction even though they were pass happy or   a pass first offense  but it just didn't seem like what Marc Trestman was trying to do was clicking. I consider Marc Trestman a good offensive coordinator but what he was trying to do isn't Joe Flacco style or even Big Ben style.

[nextgen_RavensFan]

On 10/10/2016 at 11:23 AM, flynismo said:

Here's a little bit of what I want to see

 

Make two TE sets great again! Clearly, the OL needs help til they get their act together. And we happen to have some Pitta guy, and Gilmore; both of whom are good blocking TEs and are reliable targets to throw to. Putting them both on the field together will help disguise our intentions on any given play. Are they in there to block for the HB? Is one staying back in pass pro while the other getting loose to run a route? Are they both there to terrorize opposing LBers and safeties? Who knows?? And that's the point.

Don't be afraid of commitment. The running game loves you, and will always be there for you. All it wants in return is your attention. Give her what she needs, and she will take care of the rest.

If it was meant to be, set it free. You have yourself a QB who can unleash the horrors of hell upon any secondary. You have two WRs who are quicker than a Trestman tenure. Unleash the fury! Let the Flacco go deep until his arm falls off if that's what he wants.

 

Let's go!

Agreed and think if anyone could fit the fullback spot to add more protection back their for Joe. Even if the new OC is a genius it will do no good if Flacco is on his back or scrambling.

[Ravensfan23]

14 minutes ago, wizard1 said:

I do agree with you but have a major sticking point here. John Harbaugh is the HC therefore everything flows through him. He is the one responsible for the whole picture and if that picture is fragmented he has to be held accountable just the same as he is lauded when our team wins. He has had 4 OCs in his tenure so far. Granted 2 of them went on to become HC's . This is not a recipe for offensive success. You are right this isn't the defensive dogfight division it once was. It has become a finesse division with some really good offenses and we have to keep up with them or we are going to be left behind.

I agree, Harbs has to take a lot of it. I honestly feel like Kyle Shannan would have been even better than Kubes, If for no other reason than being more creative. But I feel Harbs didn't liked him because Kyle wanted to do things his way, bucking the "Ravens Way". Of course I don't have any proof, it just had that feel.

 I'd definitely place 100% of Trestman on Harbs. He's a pass happy OC by nature, so what about him made you feel he'd conform to the establish the run and take deep shots off Play action we got from Kubes? Then you ask the guy to not only conform to a different style but to use another man's playbook while he's at it. That's a recipe destined to failure imo. If anything you hire a guy who has coached under Kubes or Shanny and truly believes that everything starts with the oline establishing the run. 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

2 hours ago, wizard1 said:

Thats true-I wanted to give Tyrod Taylor a shot for sure and look at him now. Who is the better QB in the AFC? Taylor 88 QB rating and Flacco and 80. Hmmm?

Still flacco.

[Ravensfan23]

49 minutes ago, Sami84 said:

frankly if we had a young adalius thomas opposite of suggs ( and lets say he was younger) we'd have won the last two games easy. Suggs might have 4 sacks but hes struggling for consistant pressure. Dumervil looks old..it happened with robert mathis..za'darius smith is taking the mantle of courtney upshaw and this isnt a good thing. this FO needs to get judon on the field. As for correa he isnt a pass rusher at the NFL level.

But that's the whole point, you don't have a young AD or Suggs anymore and frankly in the NFL you often don't really need them. From the college level to the NFL everything is wide open and the game is played on either a track field or basketball court it seems. The D gave up at total of 16 points and only 10 of them came from the Redskins offense last game and the Raiders game should have never come down to the 4th quarter. If the Ravens had an attacking offense they are unbeaten. imo