Merged: Marty Mornhinweg and the New Offense

[Tru11]

2 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

its not double standards.... its justification for why its the right decision regardless of outcome.

The HC doesnt know the outcome beforehand. Yes, the offense shouldve scored with multiple chances from the 1.

But its still the right decision bc the scope of negative outcomes is FAR DECREASED in that scenario. If we only weigh the possible positive outcomes, well you go for the TD every time, every 4th down. But we understand that, if you dont get it there are negative consequences. The negative consequence of failing on 4th down, from say, your own 20 are really, really bad. So punt.

But, on the opponents 1.... the possibility of getting 6 should be nearly as high as getting 3... and on top of that the negative consequence of giving the opponent the ball on their own 1; at any other point in a game wouldnt even be a negative - itd be a positive.

So yes the offense should score. But its still the right decision every time... and you do it for that reason. 

And you expect that a defense balling out will eventually dig in with 99 yards. Its not a situation of letting the offense off the hook, its "well we should get the 7, but even if not we;re still in a good situation." 

The worst, worst possible outcome happened. But the chances of both missing, AND our D failing were slim.

how many times have not kicking the FG and going for it worked out for us so far?

 

[Tru11]

3 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

Look at a few posts back and a few posts after. I address the oline play as a problem.

penalities were a big part but the oline as whole failed yesterday. That's what happens when backups play. 

 

wrong thread lol

[Tru11]

18 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

 

 

Our D is/was top ranked. Our Offense has been horrendous for 2 decades (mostly). Are you telling me we should expect the same from a great D and a (usually) bad O? 

All things equal - scoring from the 1, and not giving up a 99 yd scoring drive are pretty similar. But one of those units is not like other - one of these units just isnt the same. And ill give you one guess.

the ravens are spending more on offense then they are on defense (62 mil compared to 54 mil) and they have invested some high picks on the offense as well lately.

they are actually trying to build the offense around our high priced QB.

so forgive me if i expect them to be at least on pair with the defense.

id be fine to put everything on the defense if we go back to drafting all defense and spending most of our cap their.

lets not forget that the rules now a days favor the offense more then the defense.

quite honestly we should be having a better offense then defense TBH

i wanted to trade up for marcus peters and i wanted to trade up for ramsey BTW.
have we done that and ignored the offense like we used to do back in the days , you would not hear me talk if the defense sucked again....

Edited October 17, 2016 by Tru11

[flynismo]

2 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

the ravens are spending more on offense then they are on defense (62 mil compared to 54 mil) and they have invested some high picks on the offense as well lately.

they are actually trying to build the offense around our high priced QB.

so forgive me if i expect them to be at least on pair with the defense.

id be fine to put everything on the defense if we go back to drafting all defense and spending most of our cap their.

lets not forget that the rules now a days favor the offense more then the defense.

quite honestly we should be having a better offense then defense TBH

 

That's great and all, but Harb's decision to go for it on 4th and 1 was still a good call. Every single team in the universe would have used the exact same thought process as we presented earlier. Football 101. You may be mad at the offense, but there's no way anyone can say it was a poor decision to make.

[rmcjacket23]

24 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

how many times have not kicking the FG and going for it worked out for us so far?

 

More times than kicking the FG and still losing has...

[Tru11]

1 minute ago, flynismo said:

That's great and all, but Harb's decision to go for it on 4th and 1 was still a good call. Every single team in the universe would have used the exact same thought process as we presented earlier. Football 101. You may be mad at the offense, but there's no way anyone can say it was a poor decision to make.

yawn.

im asking people to leave the defense out of this.

its a thread about the offense and they where expected to punch it in from the 1 yard line.

no need to drag the defense into this......

[JoeyFlex5]

16 minutes ago, flynismo said:

That's great and all, but Harb's decision to go for it on 4th and 1 was still a good call. Every single team in the universe would have used the exact same thought process as we presented earlier. Football 101. You may be mad at the offense, but there's no way anyone can say it was a poor decision to make.

That was the right call and if juice executes that block it likely pays off and worst case scenario we pin them on the 1. Unfortunately we lost 2, gave them an advantage, and our defense failed us As they did the whole 2nd half. 

This was basically a mirror opposite of every other game this year with the same ending.

[Tru11]

3 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

More times than kicking the FG and still losing has...

care to back this up?

 

[usmccharles]

10 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

yawn.

im asking people to leave the defense out of this.

its a thread about the offense and they where expected to punch it in from the 1 yard line.

no need to drag the defense into this......

But that doesn't make sense, context is important in any discussion.  That's if we are talking about the call to go for it on 4th

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, Tru11 said:

care to back this up?

 

If you want me to spend a ton of time in research, sure. Did you attempt to back up the fact that you think we've lost more games than won by going for it instead of kicking? Was that substantiated by anything?

You do realize that all of this is based on a gigantic number of assumptions? You're assuming a 100% success rate on all FGs that we passed up... is that realistic? You're also assuming, like others, that every single event that occurs after that decision is unchanged by that decision to kick... is that realistic?

For example... do you think the Giants run the exact same offense, plays, and have the exact same outcome on their next drive that starts at the 25 yard line as they did when they started at the 1 yard line? Is that realistic?

[rmcjacket23]

14 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

yawn.

im asking people to leave the defense out of this.

its a thread about the offense and they where expected to punch it in from the 1 yard line.

no need to drag the defense into this......

But of course you can't leave the defense out of it, because they're arguably more important to the decision than the offense is.

 

[Tru11]

9 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

But that doesn't make sense, context is important in any discussion.  That's if we are talking about the call to go for it on 4th

was talking about the offense not being able to score TDs in the redzone in general which as i said is the real issue.

some took that and ran with this 4th down call cause you know it deflects from the real issue which clearly has not been the defense this season....

[Willbacker]

39 minutes ago, flynismo said:

That's great and all, but Harb's decision to go for it on 4th and 1 was still a good call. Every single team in the universe would have used the exact same thought process as we presented earlier. Football 101. You may be mad at the offense, but there's no way anyone can say it was a poor decision to make.

A failed play is not a good call. Sorry.

17 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

But of course you can't leave the defense out of it, because they're arguably more important to the decision than the offense is.

 

This is a very interesting statement since it seems to me you counting on them to fail. Is emotion part of the game? You stop somebody on 4th you get this. Is getting within 1 score important with a whole quarter left to play? And on an earlier post yes those were gimme FGs. Maybe 1 out of how many maybe might have been missed. Did we have a bunch of backup OLinemen in there and did we just get jammed 3 straight times in a row. Yall aint looking at the big picture.

 

[RaineV1]

42 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

yawn.

im asking people to leave the defense out of this.

its a thread about the offense and they where expected to punch it in from the 1 yard line.

no need to drag the defense into this......

You can't leave the defense out of it when they gave up over two hundred yards to one receiver. If the defense stops either one of those big TDs by OBJ the Ravens win.

And yes the Ravens offense should have gotten that touchdown. But that wasn't the single cause of the lost. That was a team lost where the defense failed to do its job too.

Edited October 17, 2016 by RaineV1

[Tru11]

im wondering but you guys do realise the defense forced a punt after that failed 4th down attempt right?

so they actually did what was expected from them and came  through after the offense failed.

im not sure what more did you guys really expected from them in that situation.

giants punted then flacco threw the bomb to wallace and tucker kicked the FG to give us the lead.

what exactly did the defense do wrong in that situation?

 

 

[Militant X 1]

1 hour ago, flynismo said:

That's great and all, but Harb's decision to go for it on 4th and 1 was still a good call. Every single team in the universe would have used the exact same thought process as we presented earlier. Football 101. You may be mad at the offense, but there's no way anyone can say it was a poor decision to make.

I love the aggressiveness of the call but hated the poor execution of it from these offensive players.  They couldn't even get 1 yard?  Wow!  Sure, other teams have gone for it there as well and didn't get it.  I get that!  But, I don't care about those team's execution...I care about ours! 

[flynismo]

Just now, Militant X 1 said:

I love the aggressiveness of the call but hated the poor execution of it from these offensive players.  They couldn't even get 1 yard?  Wow!  Sure, other teams have gone for it there as well and didn't get it.  I get that!  But, I don't care about those team's execution...I care about ours! 

No doubt, I have no problem with us being pissed at the offense, just leave Brittany Harbaugh alone

[GrimCoconut]

17 minutes ago, Militant X 1 said:

I love the aggressiveness of the call but hated the poor execution of it from these offensive players.  They couldn't even get 1 yard?  Wow!  Sure, other teams have gone for it there as well and didn't get it.  I get that!  But, I don't care about those team's execution...I care about ours! 

I agree for the most part. It wasn't even a yard--I think we needed a 1/2 a yard. I didn't get to watch the game due to being tasked out on various things while some people just sat around, but I will generally agree that you go for it in that situation every time. When I first heard we went for it on 4th down, I was upset but then I heard it was on the 1 or 1/2 yard line and I didn't mind as much. You expect the offense to win that match, but it isn't as easy as some make it out to be, either. The field shrinks in the redzone and especially in the endzone, so it is slightly easier for defenders to defend. 

[rmcjacket23]

58 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

im wondering but you guys do realise the defense forced a punt after that failed 4th down attempt right?

so they actually did what was expected from them and came  through after the offense failed.

im not sure what more did you guys really expected from them in that situation.

giants punted then flacco threw the bomb to wallace and tucker kicked the FG to give us the lead.

what exactly did the defense do wrong in that situation?

 

 

Give up several long, quick TDs once our starting corners went down. That's what the defense did. They're playing for six and we can't stop them. Meanwhile were playing for 3 and praying.

And of course the defense stopped them...the balls on the 1 yard line. Kick the FG and they start from the 25, where they weren't having issues scoring.

Whole different animal when you get 24 more yards of space behind you.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, Willbacker said:

A failed play is not a good call. Sorry.

This is a very interesting statement since it seems to me you counting on them to fail. Is emotion part of the game? You stop somebody on 4th you get this. Is getting within 1 score important with a whole quarter left to play? And on an earlier post yes those were gimme FGs. Maybe 1 out of how many maybe might have been missed. Did we have a bunch of backup OLinemen in there and did we just get jammed 3 straight times in a row. Yall aint looking at the big picture.

 

1. We're talking about ALL incidents of this decision, not just this one. They're not all gimme kicks.

2. It was a one score game regardless of the FG or not.

3. Yup, bunch of backup lineman. So we're just kicking a FG and then expecting those lineman to be good enough for another 50+ yard scoring drive? How does that make sense? We can't get a yard, but it's a lock that we can go down and score again after the FG right?

The irony here is astounding...

[allblackraven]

2 hours ago, Tru11 said:

im wondering but you guys do realise the defense forced a punt after that failed 4th down attempt right?

so they actually did what was expected from them and came  through after the offense failed.

im not sure what more did you guys really expected from them in that situation.

giants punted then flacco threw the bomb to wallace and tucker kicked the FG to give us the lead.

what exactly did the defense do wrong in that situation?

 

 

Do you realise our D gave three 4th down conversions in this game, too? First two were for quite some yards, not foot and a half plays. Two of those three led to NY touchdowns.

Discussing parts of the team in isolation and outside of the context of the game is meaningless.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

I just can't wait to see what the run game looks like when the starting oline returns. If West can turn those 1-2 yard gains into 3-4 yard gains with THIS oline what happens when the starters come back?

[Moderator 3]

Just now, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

I just can't wait to see what the run game looks like when the starting oline returns. If West can turn those 1-2 yard gains into 3-4 yard gains with THIS oline what happens when the starters come back?

You should have posted this in the positivity thread.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Just now, Moderator 3 said:

You should have posted this in the positivity thread.

Well than it's never too late to move it

[K-Dog]

40 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

Well than it's never too late to move it

Or just spread it around.  Positivity everywhere. 

[flynismo]

6 hours ago, Willbacker said:

A failed play is not a good call. Sorry.

That's an extremely simplistic view of things.

[flynismo]

7 hours ago, Tru11 said:

yawn.

im asking people to leave the defense out of this.

its a thread about the offense and they where expected to punch it in from the 1 yard line.

no need to drag the defense into this......

And the response to that is still the same as last time.

[RavensDieHard21]

4th and 1, you obviously go for it, but I don't get why the play calls were the exact opposite extreme of what we were looking for, i.e., 4 runs plays with no fakes, a lofted pass to Gilmore or maybe a jump ball for Perriman. Heck even a Play action bootleg with Joe running to the opposite side.

[RaineV1]

17 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

4th and 1, you obviously go for it, but I don't get why the play calls were the exact opposite extreme of what we were looking for, i.e., 4 runs plays with no fakes, a lofted pass to Gilmore or maybe a jump ball for Perriman. Heck even a Play action bootleg with Joe running to the opposite side.

That last one is what Kubiak would of done, and it usually worked. I think Marty is going to be better than Trestman, but I would like to see him use the QB bootleg like Kubiak from time to time. Joe seemed to do those well.

[PurpleCity5]

I liked what Mornhinweg did, kept running the ball and we got some big plays. Good job on his part with 6 days to prepare. I think we're in for a much better offense soon.