Merged: Ravens Fire Marc Trestman

[Maryland]

6 hours ago, terps85 said:

Who is saying Flacco had an off-game? Trestman cannot catch the ball for the receivers, block for the line, or run for the backs. Are people upset with Trestman if Wallace catches that touchdown?

Anyone can predict what the Ravens are going to do because the running game is terrible.  Forsett does not deserve more than ~3 carries a game.

That's my opinion of this game. If we had a run game worth respecting, then we would get better looks in the pass-game. However, we get no push in the run game, holes are hard to come by, and so our 1st/2nd down runs go for 3 yards on average. Moreover, our RBs are nothing special; no one is explosive or particularly talented as dump-off receivers. In addition, if our receivers make some plays, we pick up more first downs (Wallace slipped on a 3rd down play; Perriman had a bad drop that would have given a first down early on; Pitta ran the wrong route it seemed, which led to a pick). Flacco did miss a couple throws deep in the middle of the field that would have been huge, but he was hardly the biggest reason for the struggles at Jacksonville.

Trestman may have his flaws, but I thought he did okay vs Jags. A lot of plays left on the field came from poor execution imo.  

[flynismo]

9 hours ago, terps85 said:

This is literally their defensive scheme man. They run cover 3 pretty much exclusively.  It wouldn't make sense to consistently call deep routes against a defense designed to stop deep throws.

That is a good point; although I'd say a cover 3 is more a run stopping D that tries to prevent WRs from getting behind the secondary than it is a coverage designed to stop the deep ball. I make that distinction because there are still a variety of ways throw deep on cover 3 with success.  Granted, some of those ways require our OL to hold up longer than 1.5 seconds, which seems to be asking too much of our OL at times, so we can't blame Trestman for that.

[Davesta]

Weren't kyle shanahan a front runner for Ravens OC awhile back? I think we went with Gary kubiak instead. Watching this saints Falcons MNF and I'm liking this Falcons offense. Gotta remember it's against the saints D though. 

[JoeyFlex5]

On 9/25/2016 at 9:48 PM, terps85 said:

This is literally their defensive scheme man. They run cover 3 pretty much exclusively.  It wouldn't make sense to consistently call deep routes against a defense designed to stop deep throws.

But there are soft spots in 2 places, the short and the intermediate(seams specifically) and you play into the hands of the cover 3 by throwing short, you're literally doing exactly what they want you to do so they can stop you, they give you those short soft spots for a reason, because it's an easy tackle and short gain. 

When you have speed, there is no excuse. Cover 3 is designed to stop deep balls but with the speed we have we can get to the soft spots between the LBs and safeties and make for bigger gains and harder tackles because there are less defenders in front of the ball. you beat the safeties to the intermediate because your wrs are simply too fast, they have to respect the deep ball but also have to watch the intermediate, when you work that part of the field it becomes a pick your poison scenario for the safeties; do I commit to the seam and skinny post so they stop abusing us or Do I stay deep and prevent the big play? Eventually they have to commit to the intermediate and when that time comes you can make them pay for it. Its a chess match and trestman is failing it by doing what the defense wants.

[flynismo]

Flacco says the same thing as most of us, he told Trestman to call more deep plays last week:

http://www.espn.com/blog/baltimore-ravens/post/_/id/30112/getting-aggressive-joe-flacco-campaigned-marc-trestman-for-more-downfield-passes

Edited September 27, 2016 by flynismo

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

3 hours ago, Davesta said:

Weren't kyle shanahan a front runner for Ravens OC awhile back? I think we went with Gary kubiak instead. Watching this saints Falcons MNF and I'm liking this Falcons offense. Gotta remember it's against the saints D though. 

 

Shannahn is a disciple of Kubiak and a damn good one. He's reportedly had tension with the Falcons organization because he has a monster ego. Not someone who'd mesh well with Harbaugh even though I really like him as an OC

[Ravensfan23]

22 hours ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

Trestman to me is that girl who is a 6 who hangs out with a bunch of 9s. We could certainly do a lot worse, but we could also do a lot better. I think this season is proving that it was a lack of defensive talent on that side of the ball with Pees. We're overly talented on offense everywhere except the line. Im convinced that if we had a better run game we'd get more creative playcalling(a lot of people dont seem to understand that when they stack the box its the most opportune moment to go deep) at least on passing downs. 

I have a feeling Trestman gets fired. I dont think hes bad, hes just not a fit here

 

No matter how talented you are at the so called skilled positions and it doesn't matter how much the game chances offensively, every football game from pop warner to the NFL are won in the trenches. If you don't have an consistently good offensive line you don't have an consistently good offense period. 

I think a lot of people don't understand it's not that simple. Deep routes have to be accompanied by good blocking. We all wanna see plays result in big yards and points, but when you actually take the time to watch the game it's easy to see that Trestman is not the problem. 

Case and point. The first 3rd down of the game. After a SSS dropped pass, Trestman schemes SSS to match up against a LB. SSS against a LB is a win 100% of the time. SSS runs a jerk route and has plenty of room to run after the catch. The offense is already at midfield so a complete puts the offense in scoring position with the potential to start fast. However Flacco couldn't step into his throw because of pressure at his feet. How's that on Trestman? That's 2 poor execution examples on the opening drive that probably coste us points. 

On the next drive, backed up deep in their own territory, after a drop by Perriman that set up 3rd & 2, a deep shot is dialed up. I think Flacco checks into the shot play, but nonetheless it was still poor execution that cost the team a huge play. Wallace beats Ramsey on a go route with no safey help over the top. If Flacco throws the ball inside, Wallace gets a chance to run under it and may not stop running. Again, how is that on Trestman?

The offense scores on the next 2 drives, but probably should have produced points on their first 4 possession. On their 5th possession, Trestman dials up a shot that has Perriman running across the field against a LB. Huge mismatch, probably was as soon as Flacco got the snap Zuttah's man was tackling him. Again how is that Trestman's fault?

The next drive the offense kicks a FG before the half and the first drive of the 2nd half saw Wallace drop a prefect pass on a fade from the slot vs a inexperienced DB. This is example upon example of poor execution not poor play calling. Right now the Ravens just aren't firing on all cylinders and it's understandable with a your starting QB, TE, WR and RB all returning from injury. Then your starting left side of the oline are both rookies playing next to a Center who is struggling. Along with Perriman, Moore, and Wallace who are all basically new to the offense and playing with Flacco. Not to mention most of these guys didn't even play together in preseason. This offense isn't far from being explosive and running teams off the field imo. But it's a execution and timing issue right now, not play calling. 

[flynismo]

11 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

But it's a execution and timing issue right now, not play calling. 

That's not what Flacco said in that link above. And what happened when we started going deep at his request, despite shoddy OL play? Flacco, as always, said it best:  "[The plays] don’t have to be perfect, but I think we can let our players make some plays and get some opportunities."

I mean obviously we need to do far better in execution, but to say Trestman isn't a problem is not accurate at all.

Edited September 27, 2016 by flynismo

[Ravensfan23]

2 hours ago, flynismo said:

Flacco says the same thing as most of us, he told Trestman to call more deep plays last week:

http://www.espn.com/blog/baltimore-ravens/post/_/id/30112/getting-aggressive-joe-flacco-campaigned-marc-trestman-for-more-downfield-passes

 

1 hour ago, flynismo said:

That's not what Flacco said in that link above. And what happened when we started going deep at his request, despite shoddy OL play? Flacco, as always, said it best:  "[The plays] don’t have to be perfect, but I think we can let our players make some plays and get some opportunities."

I mean obviously we need to do far better in execution, but to say Trestman isn't a problem is not accurate at all.

Don't just post a quote from Flacco go back and watch the game. What you and many other that want to use that Flacco quote to condemn Trestman miss is that the Baltimore Ravens had ran a total of 8 yes 8 offensive plays before they were down 20-2. Of those 8 plays the Ravens had 2 drops and a Int. Down 20-2 the offense put together a long drive that resulted in no points but Moore dropped a clear TD. Watch the game and tell me other than better execution what changed?

Flacco's exact words from the Wired clip. He mentioned how it seemed they were moving too slow and getting few yards at the time. Now we don't knowing exactly when this convo took place but what I do know is that nothing changed about the offense in terms of play calling, it was just tempo and execution that improved. I wonder if there weren't so many dropped balls and poor blocking would the offense have seemed to move a bit faster. Hard to have tempo when you're shooting yourself in the foot constantly. That link you provide talked about how the Ravens only had two 15+ yard pass attempts in the first quarter. But what it didn't mention was how both those deep pass attempts were open but poor execution caused them to be incomplete. So if there are guys running why open but they don't make the play or your oline doesn't block how is that on the OC?

Yes Flacco said it best, the plays don't have to be perfect but let the players make plays and take advantage of opportunities. I'm sure there are things Trestman could do better, nobodies perfect. Imo the mark of a good OC is a guy who can give his QB enough control to make in game adjustments. Cam was too stubborn to do it  and Kubes had stubborn moments as well. For Trestman not to have a big ego and take advice from his QB is great in my book. You say it's obvious we need far better execution, I just wonder how many fans would be calling for Trestman's head if the players actually blocked up the plays and caught the ball when the opportunity presented itself. If Flacco was holding onto the ball because nobody was getting open with all this talent on offense, then i'd be at the front of the line to blame Trestman, but that's not the case. Just this past game you had Wallace drop a TD, Flacco miss both Perriman and Wallace on deep balls and the oline allowing quick pressure that prevented big plays. The said part is, I haven't even gotten to the 4th quarter yet. 

 

[Maryland]

5 hours ago, Davesta said:

Weren't kyle shanahan a front runner for Ravens OC awhile back? I think we went with Gary kubiak instead. Watching this saints Falcons MNF and I'm liking this Falcons offense. Gotta remember it's against the saints D though. 

That Saints defense is one of the worst I've ever seen--that was my main takeaway from that game. Shanahan is a good OC, but he's not some mastermind; once you establish the run like they did, the playcalling is cake. 

[Ravensfan23]

4 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

But there are soft spots in 2 places, the short and the intermediate(seams specifically) and you play into the hands of the cover 3 by throwing short, you're literally doing exactly what they want you to do so they can stop you, they give you those short soft spots for a reason, because it's an easy tackle and short gain. 

When you have speed, there is no excuse. Cover 3 is designed to stop deep balls but with the speed we have we can get to the soft spots between the LBs and safeties and make for bigger gains and harder tackles because there are less defenders in front of the ball. you beat the safeties to the intermediate because your wrs are simply too fast, they have to respect the deep ball but also have to watch the intermediate, when you work that part of the field it becomes a pick your poison scenario for the safeties; do I commit to the seam and skinny post so they stop abusing us or Do I stay deep and prevent the big play? Eventually they have to commit to the intermediate and when that time comes you can make them pay for it. Its a chess match and trestman is failing it by doing what the defense wants.

That all sounds good in theory but football isn't played on a chalk board. Like the old saying goes, it's not about the x's and o's but the Jimmy and Joe's. I haven't even gotten to 4th quarter in my breakdown of the  game and ive seen 4 missed opportunities to hit deep balls down the seams. I've seen 3 other times when the Jags should have been burned with a LB matched up on a WR but the oline didn't allow the play to develop. 

If you see Trestman as losing a chess match, than I have to question how well of a chess player you are. Because he's creating mismatches all over the field and that pick your poison scenario that you played out is exactly what is happening, but if it's not working up front or guys aren't making plays than it just doesn't work. 

[JoeyFlex5]

7 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

That all sounds good in theory but football isn't played on a chalk board. Like the old saying goes, it's not about the x's and o's but the Jimmy and Joe's. I haven't even gotten to 4th quarter in my breakdown of the  game and ive seen 4 missed opportunities to hit deep balls down the seams. I've seen 3 other times when the Jags should have been burned with a LB matched up on a WR but the oline didn't allow the play to develop. 

If you see Trestman as losing a chess match, than I have to question how well of a chess player you are. Because he's creating mismatches all over the field and that pick your poison scenario that you played out is exactly what is happening, but if it's not working up front or guys aren't making plays than it just doesn't work. 

But there's also progressions and if the first read is short and the pressure is getting there quickly then Joe has no time to make his 2nd and 3rd reads which are the deep throws. 

Everything needs to be done better and there's no doubting that, our offense overall is mess, but I think more consistent and tailored play calling is a big part of the problem, so many plays appear to be wasted attempts where trestman is over thinking it and simply not doing what's best.

[terps85]

12 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

But there are soft spots in 2 places, the short and the intermediate(seams specifically) and you play into the hands of the cover 3 by throwing short, you're literally doing exactly what they want you to do so they can stop you, they give you those short soft spots for a reason, because it's an easy tackle and short gain. 

When you have speed, there is no excuse. Cover 3 is designed to stop deep balls but with the speed we have we can get to the soft spots between the LBs and safeties and make for bigger gains and harder tackles because there are less defenders in front of the ball. you beat the safeties to the intermediate because your wrs are simply too fast, they have to respect the deep ball but also have to watch the intermediate, when you work that part of the field it becomes a pick your poison scenario for the safeties; do I commit to the seam and skinny post so they stop abusing us or Do I stay deep and prevent the big play? Eventually they have to commit to the intermediate and when that time comes you can make them pay for it. Its a chess match and trestman is failing it by doing what the defense wants.

Or you can throw it underneath, complete 20 straight passes and move the ball down the field consistently. 

I know there are more ways to attack the cover 3, but those take too long to develop against a d-line pinning their ears back to rush the passer because of the lack of run game. 

[Ravensfan23]

4 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

But there's also progressions and if the first read is short and the pressure is getting there quickly then Joe has no time to make his 2nd and 3rd reads which are the deep throws. 

Everything needs to be done better and there's no doubting that, our offense overall is mess, but I think more consistent and tailored play calling is a big part of the problem, so many plays appear to be wasted attempts where trestman is over thinking it and simply not doing what's best.

Well for me it's hard for me to say what read is what when Flacco has so much control at the LOS. Remember this is exactly what we wanted, or should I say exactly what I've wanted. I've been calling for 5 to have control of this offense for years and Trestman is finally the guy who has done it while also shedding that establish the run "Raven's Way" still of offense. So i'm willing to take a couple of stinkers on offense for this sake, just as long as I see positive sign and other than the running game I see a ton of positive signs. 

I personally think it's smart to have so many short and quicker routes right now. Flacco is the most important player to this team and with a young Left side of the line paired with a below average Center right now, people are gonna come after Joe. Getting the ball out quick is a great thing right now because there is no run game to speak of, so on early downs the defense can just stop the run on the way to the QB. 

I largely disagree about Trestman's play calling being a big part of the problem. I think it's definitely a part of the problem but not a huge part. I think we have to understand that there is a certain rhythm that goes along with play calling. When you can get into a flow things are much easier, but when you have drives stalled by penalties or poor execution it makes things harder for the OC to get into or stay in that groove much like your QB. I think sometimes Trestman does overthink it, especially with the playaction, but I also know that with at least a decent run game defenses wouldn't be able to key on it as much. 

[Pfrost]

This team continues to disappoint on offense. Even against the worst defense in the NFL the Ravens can't seem to move to ball. Our running game finally improved in the 2nd half but the passing game can't keep momentum. Out OL playing without our two starting rookies couldn't get it done.  Chris Moore continues to prove he can't catch to save his life and  flacco can't pass with any type of pressure on him. I would be surprised if this continues that Mark Trestman can keep his job. In games we should be able to dominate he can't call the right plays. 

In that final drive I wish we just let Tuck try a 68 yard FG. The way out offense played that drive it would have given us a much better chance.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Pfrost

[mdrsharon]

Sorry, but he is not cutting it.

Flacco has a rocket arm, why can't we open up the field? Way too conservative on the play calling.

Trestman did the same boring things in Chicago. Shades of Cam (who also just got fired).

O line needs work , too.

[52liveforever]

I honestly can't even say if the play calling was bad or not.  The oline play was absolutely unacceptable and who knows how the offense would have played with decent oline play. They were killing drives with penalties. Wagner, Yanda, and Gilmore were the only ones blocking anybody. I almost would rather see Gilmore at left tackle than Hurst. 

[mdrsharon]

Flacco needs time to throw, he did not get that today.

first down, always a draw. Let's mix it up a bit.

[PurpleCity5]

Cover 2 defenses are becoming a weakness for this offense. I can see teams going exclusively cover 2/3 on us for the entire game. We move the ball very well on man coverage, in fact we have man coverage vs Buffalo on that 66 yard TD by Mike Wallace, and man coverage again vs Oakland on the 52 yard TD after we saw cover 2 for almost the entire game. We burn defense on man coverage but struggle to move the ball against zone defenses. 

That's becoming a problem, if you can't force yourself to beat teams against the Zone and force them to other coverage schemes exp. man coverage, then you're going to struggle to move the ball, even against this bad Raiders defense. 

The play-calling confused me, we were in short yardage situations sometimes and we refused to run the ball. You could use the relief of having an extra set of downs. 52 drop backs is way too much. 

I'm equally upset at the players and Marc Trestman. The players need to block and catch better, it's as simple as that. The coaches make me upset because for the 4th straight game, THIS OFFENSE IS STARTING SLOW! That's just stupid. I don't know what is wrong with this offense because they cannot start fast to save their lives at the moment, IMO it's the biggest problem with the offense right now. 

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

The next time we get an OC, he needs to be vetted based on his knowledge and Offensive philosophy, but most important, he needs to be able to get the most out of the strengths of each player, by recognizing what they do well, and building an offense around that. 

All to often in Bmore, its " this is our system, you must conform" or not get playing time. Call it square peg in round hole.

 

[The Raven]

1 minute ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

The next time we get an OC, he needs to be vetted based on his knowledge and Offensive philosophy, but most important, he needs to be able to get the most out of the strengths of each player, by recognizing what they do well, and building an offense around that. 

All to often in Bmore, its " this is our system, you must conform" or not get playing time. Call it square peg in round hole.

 

Man, I can't believe Harbaugh and Bisciotti and Ozzie don't do that already. That's terrible. They don't vet guys prior to a hire? Man oh man.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

I honestly dont think we know what we are doing. We basically run the same plays, and wing it, and hope for the best. We have no plan, we do not get creative by using our speedy players, and designing plays to get them the ball in space. Its just sad. It frustrates me each game, and I just hope tgey can make something happen from the dookie on offense.

[rmcjacket23]

10 minutes ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

The next time we get an OC, he needs to be vetted based on his knowledge and Offensive philosophy, but most important, he needs to be able to get the most out of the strengths of each player, by recognizing what they do well, and building an offense around that. 

All to often in Bmore, its " this is our system, you must conform" or not get playing time. Call it square peg in round hole.

 

Doesn't really work that way. Too much offensive personnel turnover for that to really work long term. You basically get a coordinator that meshes well with the QB, and adapt accordingly. WRs and RBs aren't here long enough to bring in a coordinator for them.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

11 minutes ago, The Raven said:

Man, I can't believe Harbaugh and Bisciotti and Ozzie don't do that already. That's terrible. They don't vet guys prior to a hire? Man oh man.

He was the qb coach, we liked him, thought he could do well after Kub's left, but here we have a sad state of affairs, where another failed head coach, with a losing record, gets fired, we love those guys btw, another cam cameron scenario....if they got fired as a HC, obviously their offensive knowledge could not help the team they got fired from, lol, but we feel sorry for them like a lost puppy, and give them a shot.

Why cant we just find a successful Offensive mind, that has not sucked previously?  Do like we did with Harbs, interview a bunch of candidates, have them create a blueprint of what they think will help our offense before hiring them based on the talent we have.

You might be surprised what you hear, ideas that is, giving you some insight other than from the yes men you currently have on staff.

I would recommend someone with an offensive mind, that actually knows how to draw up plays based on pro style formations, and to attack defenses. 

I am starting to think Joe may not be the brightest bulb in the QB ranks, when you see guys like Wentz come up fully ready from a small school.

[AsianRice]

1 minute ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

He was the qb coach, we liked him, thought he could do well after Kub's left, but here we have a sad state of affairs, where another failed head coach, with a losing record, gets fired, we love those guys btw, another cam cameron scenario....if they got fired as a HC, obviously their offensive knowledge could not help the team they got fired from, lol, but we feel sorry for them like a lost puppy, and give them a shot.

Why cant we just find a successful Offensive mind, that has not sucked previously?  Do like we did with Harbs, interview a bunch of candidates, have them create a blueprint of what they think will help our offense before hiring them based on the talent we have.

You might be surprised what you hear, ideas that is, giving you some insight other than from the yes men you currently have on staff.

I would recommend someone with an offensive mind, that actually knows how to draw up plays based on pro style formations, and to attack defenses. 

I am starting to think Joe may not be the brightest bulb in the QB ranks, when you see guys like Wentz come up fully ready from a small school.

Well, like Kubiak? if they do well here, they will get HC job somewhere else and we start to search another OC who are just average enough to not get a promotion or those who are just like to being coordinator only, which is rare.  

[The Raven]

3 minutes ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

He was the qb coach, we liked him, thought he could do well after Kub's left, but here we have a sad state of affairs, where another failed head coach, with a losing record, gets fired, we love those guys btw, another cam cameron scenario....if they got fired as a HC, obviously their offensive knowledge could not help the team they got fired from, lol, but we feel sorry for them like a lost puppy, and give them a shot.

Why cant we just find a successful Offensive mind, that has not sucked previously?  Do like we did with Harbs, interview a bunch of candidates, have them create a blueprint of what they think will help our offense before hiring them based on the talent we have.

You might be surprised what you hear, ideas that is, giving you some insight other than from the yes men you currently have on staff.

I would recommend someone with an offensive mind, that actually knows how to draw up plays based on pro style formations, and to attack defenses. 

I am starting to think Joe may not be the brightest bulb in the QB ranks, when you see guys like Wentz come up fully ready from a small school.

So, our staff doesn't hire offensive minded coaches to coordinate the offense? Is that your final answer?

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

I remember Belicheck visiting Jimmy Johnson for some insight into Offensively helping his team. Maybe we need to bring in some "outside offensive minds" to give us some additional  help before the ship sinks. Call it consultants, happens in business all the time.

[flynismo]

1 hour ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

I am starting to think Joe may not be the brightest bulb in the QB ranks, when you see guys like Wentz come up fully ready from a small school.

C'mon man! Do you not even realize that Flacco and Ryan are the reasons that guys like Wentz are getting chances to play as rookies now?? It is because of how successful those two guys were in 2008 that people like Wentz even exist. And dont be so fast to crown that guy after 4 NFL games. Many, many people were supposedly better than Flacco after one good season. He has one quarter of a season under his belt. He has not even proven that he is a startng QB yet.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Moderator 3
Don't cuss

[Willbacker]

I'm not going to get on Trestman for game calling but you gotta leave somebody in to chip block to help Hurst and I'm putting that squarely on the shoulders of Trestman.

[allblackraven]

42 minutes ago, flynismo said:

 Do you not even realize that Flacco and Ryan are the reasons that guys like Wentz are getting chances to play as rookies now?? It is because of how successful those two guys were in 2008 that people like Wentz even exist. And dont be so fast to crown that guy after 4 NFL games. Many, many people were supposedly better than Flacco after one good season. He has one quarter of a season under his belt. He has not even proven that he is a startng QB yet.

That'd be 3 - he had a bye this week.

He's going to be pretty good, I think.