Merged: Ravens Fire Marc Trestman

[allblackraven]

1 hour ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Scare to do what exactly? Throw the ball deep to Moore for a Td only to have him drop it? The offense was moving all game, it was just having drives stall because of drops and poor oline play early one. Flacco pointed to the 2 minute drive as a result of the offense opening things up. If that's the case than I have to question exactly when Flacco spoke to Trestman because Pitta had an opportunity to make the same catch on a 3&7 the drive before but he dropped it. The very next play Flacco hit Pitta down the seams on a skinny post for a big play. It was the nearly the same exact play that Moore dropped the TD. Get your inside guy matched up with a safety across the middle of the field. 

 

Scared to stretch the field early. Too predictable with lame 1st down runs and checkdowns out to RB, especially on 3rd and not-so-long downs. Can't use Moore's single dropped pass as an excuse not to play to our WR's strengths.

[usmccharles]

I would like to see more long crossing routes like we saw week 1 with Wallace.  I think we just need to get a feel for the players and calls to fit, just glad we are 2-0 trying to find ourselves. 

[Ravensfan23]

11 hours ago, allblackraven said:

Scared to stretch the field early. Too predictable with lame 1st down runs and checkdowns out to RB, especially on 3rd and not-so-long downs. Can't use Moore's single dropped pass as an excuse not to play to our WR's strengths.

That's the point, he wasn't scared to stretch the field if he's calling routes that actually stretched the field. Lame 1st down runs, really? The Ravens had 16 1st Down plays in the 1st half, only 4 were running plays. 2 of those runs went for 4 yards. Doesn't sound predictable to me.

Now let's look at the 5 1st down plays that took place in the first quarter. 

1) Drop by Gilmore, potential 6 yard gain. 2) Drop by West, potential 10+ gain, 3) Play Action shot play, poor blocking, Aiken open potential 36+ yards 4)Deep pass can't develop because of quick pass, incomplete to West. 5) Moore drops potential TD

Where is the predictable play calling? 3 out of 5 first down plays were designed to go deep, where's the scared play calling? 

So let's look at the checkdown out to RBs. There is a huge difference between a designed checkdown(which would imply it's called by Trestman) and a attempt to the RB because Flacco is just trying to get something out of a broken play. There was a total of 3 3rd down attempts to RBs, First one came when Stanley got pushed back into Flacco and Joe just threw in Juice's direction to avoid the sack. 2nd came in the 2 minute warning where Juice pickup 8yds to move the chains and the final was the last offensive play where Joe was forced to target Forsett because of quick pressure. So again, where's the lame checkdowns out to RBs on 3rd downs? 

Finally you said can't use Moore's drop as an excuse not to use the WR's to their strengths, not sure what that has to do with anything, but ok. Going back to the first quarter while the offense "wasn't working" as many claim, the Ravens had Aiken open on a deep cross for 30+ and that's definitely a strength for him. Wallace came open on a jerk route across the middle. If Flacco hit Wallace in stride, he has room to run with only the safety between him and the endzone. But Joe was hit while throwing, but i'd definitely say Wallace in space with just a Safety to beat is definitely a strength for him. Pitta was used to his strengths all game, as was SSS. Wallace, Perriman and Moore where all even deep ball chances, so who exactly wasn't used to their strengths? 

Let's be honest here, I'm a huge huge huge Flacco guy, but it's not hard to figure out that being down by 20-2 in the first quarter means you need to start hitting some big plays to get a spark back for your team. The offense was stalling because of poor execution not play call. You can't fault play call when you have guys running wide open. I haven't seen one complaint about Trestman over the first two games other than the run game that proved to be true once watching the film. 

 

[Ravensfan23]

3 hours ago, usmccharles said:

I would like to see more long crossing routes like we saw week 1 with Wallace.  I think we just need to get a feel for the players and calls to fit, just glad we are 2-0 trying to find ourselves. 

Gotta have protection for that and the oline didn't protect Flacco well enough to do that in this game. The problem with long crossing routes is that if they aren't completed you rarely even know if the team ran them because the camera angles don't show them on TV. The offense ran a good bit of crosses. I think the offense definitely has it's identity of how they're gonna attack each game, they just gotta stop the miscues. 

[ellicottraven]

We need to focus on protecting Joe till he settles into the game. We all know Joe needs to get into a rhythm to be at his best. We need to block and get some well choreographed easy first downs till he is in a groove. Once he gets there, he can't be stopped. But, its all easier said than done.

[Maryland]

7 hours ago, allblackraven said:

Scared to stretch the field early. Too predictable with lame 1st down runs and checkdowns out to RB, especially on 3rd and not-so-long downs. Can't use Moore's single dropped pass as an excuse not to play to our WR's strengths.

I would say the more predictable thing is, whenever they pass for an incompletion on 1st down, they almost always run on second down. This goes for a lot of teams though. 

[Ravensfan23]

4 hours ago, Maryland said:

I would say the more predictable thing is, whenever they pass for an incompletion on 1st down, they almost always run on second down. This goes for a lot of teams though. 

Yeah that definitely happens a lot. Most coaches really believe in playing ahead of the sticks and before of that you like to get a nice drive starter of at least 4 yards. So when that first play doesn't work, it seems like most coaches just go into, Ok let's at least get some yards mode on 2nd down. 

 

7 hours ago, ellicottraven said:

We need to focus on protecting Joe till he settles into the game. We all know Joe needs to get into a rhythm to be at his best. We need to block and get some well choreographed easy first downs till he is in a groove. Once he gets there, he can't be stopped. But, its all easier said than done.

The same thing is true for Trestman or any OC as a play caller. Calling a football game is a rhythm, that's why we often hear terms like "in the flow of the game" or "momentum" and how important it is. This is why a lot of coaches, don't think Trestman does, but a lot of coaches will script the first 10-15 of their best plays against the defense they'll face that week to hopefully ensure the offense gets off to a quick start. I know Belichek and Payton does it a lot. The offense looks much better when they can ride momentum(just like the Browns did) and they look worse when they can't seem to get going. All the drop passes, poor blocking and miscues the Ravens had during the first quarter makes it hard for a offense to consistently move because there is no flow. 

[January J]

9 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

That's the point, he wasn't scared to stretch the field if he's calling routes that actually stretched the field. Lame 1st down runs, really? The Ravens had 16 1st Down plays in the 1st half, only 4 were running plays. 2 of those runs went for 4 yards. Doesn't sound predictable to me.

Now let's look at the 5 1st down plays that took place in the first quarter. 

1) Drop by Gilmore, potential 6 yard gain. 2) Drop by West, potential 10+ gain, 3) Play Action shot play, poor blocking, Aiken open potential 36+ yards 4)Deep pass can't develop because of quick pass, incomplete to West. 5) Moore drops potential TD

Where is the predictable play calling? 3 out of 5 first down plays were designed to go deep, where's the scared play calling? 

So let's look at the checkdown out to RBs. There is a huge difference between a designed checkdown(which would imply it's called by Trestman) and a attempt to the RB because Flacco is just trying to get something out of a broken play. There was a total of 3 3rd down attempts to RBs, First one came when Stanley got pushed back into Flacco and Joe just threw in Juice's direction to avoid the sack. 2nd came in the 2 minute warning where Juice pickup 8yds to move the chains and the final was the last offensive play where Joe was forced to target Forsett because of quick pressure. So again, where's the lame checkdowns out to RBs on 3rd downs? 

Finally you said can't use Moore's drop as an excuse not to use the WR's to their strengths, not sure what that has to do with anything, but ok. Going back to the first quarter while the offense "wasn't working" as many claim, the Ravens had Aiken open on a deep cross for 30+ and that's definitely a strength for him. Wallace came open on a jerk route across the middle. If Flacco hit Wallace in stride, he has room to run with only the safety between him and the endzone. But Joe was hit while throwing, but i'd definitely say Wallace in space with just a Safety to beat is definitely a strength for him. Pitta was used to his strengths all game, as was SSS. Wallace, Perriman and Moore where all even deep ball chances, so who exactly wasn't used to their strengths? 

Let's be honest here, I'm a huge huge huge Flacco guy, but it's not hard to figure out that being down by 20-2 in the first quarter means you need to start hitting some big plays to get a spark back for your team. The offense was stalling because of poor execution not play call. You can't fault play call when you have guys running wide open. I haven't seen one complaint about Trestman over the first two games other than the run game that proved to be true once watching the film. 

 

Some people just don't understand the nuances of the play calling. Audibles, check downs on broken plays, etc. It's a lot deeper than what we see on the surface. Its easy to blame Trestman- but  like RavensFan23 just so eloquently explained- drops , poor blocking , and just simple lack of execution can make good play calls look bad and disrupt the rhythm of a drive-forcing him into making changes on the fly. Sometimes Trestman might have had a doozy dialed up- joe mistakenly checks out of it for whatever reason or thinks he sees something wrong- and the play goes to crap and looks ugly. And who then catches the blame? You guessed it.

Edited September 22, 2016 by January J

[Tiznut]

@Ravensfan23 rhythm thing is why cam lost it at the end. His play calling was viewed as arbitrary and at the same time Caldwell said it was like we never used the middle of the field.  I'm confident in trestman and flacco getting the rhythm needed for us to succeed. 

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

Why did we go with Trestman, what exactly does he bring to the table? 

 

I want a guy who can figure out how to get the best of his players strengths, and can call a game to exploit mismatches, and move the ball downfield, and score tds in the redzone.

 

So far, I have seen us struggle with the worst teams in the league. 

All I see is us constantly doing tge same things, just swapping players in and out. Its really depressing

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

While I am in agreement that Trestman can be infuriating at times, we're not executing on some of his calls. And a lot of the calls we aren't executing on are good ones. Trestman has his moments of pure brilliance. He has just as many moments of pure crap as well, but he's not the primary issue here. It all starts with the oline, and most of our failure to run the ball can be attributed to that. 

 

We need a new center.. BADLY. 

[PurpleCity5]

I'm beginning to understand why. 

So you complete 21 straight passes and in the end, you're QB has an off-game? I mean how is that possible? That makes me heavily question the play-calling to a very large degree. Play calling has become predictable as well. People on this board have managed to predict the calls and that isn't a good thing. When the viewers have a good sense of predictability, then the defense has a 10x better sense of it. 

The offense needs start fast, and finish fast. That's been a theme here and I don't know if it will end. That's my biggest gripe with the offense and while we did score on our 2nd or 3rd(?) drive, it was still frustrating to see us get nothing after that. 

This is the best offense we've had surround Joe is a long time and we're not seeing much, I have to say that this offense has been very disappointing. 

[DomMcRaven]

58 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I'm beginning to understand why. 

So you complete 21 straight passes and in the end, you're QB has an off-game? I mean how is that possible? That makes me heavily question the play-calling to a very large degree. Play calling has become predictable as well. People on this board have managed to predict the calls and that isn't a good thing. When the viewers have a good sense of predictability, then the defense has a 10x better sense of it. 

The offense needs start fast, and finish fast. That's been a theme here and I don't know if it will end. That's my biggest gripe with the offense and while we did score on our 2nd or 3rd(?) drive, it was still frustrating to see us get nothing after that. 

This is the best offense we've had surround Joe is a long time and we're not seeing much, I have to say that this offense has been very disappointing. 

Mannnnn, when Flacco was on that hot streak, it almost brought a figurative tear to my eye with that poetry in motion. It was a beauty to watch. To me, the only thing I can think of is that our players are still in sync with the entire playbook (IDK, i'm just guessing). Like I said in a different thread, I'll give it until after week 5 against the Redskins (I think) to see if our offense becomes more consistent or whatnot. 

[terps85]

Who is saying Flacco had an off-game? Trestman cannot catch the ball for the receivers, block for the line, or run for the backs. Are people upset with Trestman if Wallace catches that touchdown?

Anyone can predict what the Ravens are going to do because the running game is terrible.  Forsett does not deserve more than ~3 carries a game.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I'm beginning to understand why. 

So you complete 21 straight passes and in the end, you're QB has an off-game? I mean how is that possible? That makes me heavily question the play-calling to a very large degree. Play calling has become predictable as well. People on this board have managed to predict the calls and that isn't a good thing. When the viewers have a good sense of predictability, then the defense has a 10x better sense of it. 

The offense needs start fast, and finish fast. That's been a theme here and I don't know if it will end. That's my biggest gripe with the offense and while we did score on our 2nd or 3rd(?) drive, it was still frustrating to see us get nothing after that. 

This is the best offense we've had surround Joe is a long time and we're not seeing much, I have to say that this offense has been very disappointing. 

Don't think Flacco had an "off game" by any measurement. Think he may easily have been our best offensive player out there today.

He certainly made some guys who didn't play well look very, very good when it was all said and done.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

I am calling out the Offensive coaching staff:

Is there ANY offensive minded coach on this staff, or just a bunch of Yes men?

 

You have got to be kidding me with these pathetic Offensive game plans, and embarrasing routes these receivers are running.

This aint high school here fellas. You spend all summer, get Wallace, Perriman, Chris Moore speed guys, and this is the best Offense you can put on the field?

You mean to tell me you cant draw up plays to get your speedy guys the ball on space?? YAC

Give me a freakin break. The slowest and oldest players consistently get targeted in these basic routes, and fall down as soon as they get the ball.

 Old and slow and no imagination has got to go. 

We have to do better. 

[Warren]

Prediction: Trestman will be fired this off season.

[PurpleCity5]

1 hour ago, DomMcRaven said:

Mannnnn, when Flacco was on that hot streak, it almost brought a figurative tear to my eye with that poetry in motion. It was a beauty to watch. To me, the only thing I can think of is that our players are still in sync with the entire playbook (IDK, i'm just guessing). Like I said in a different thread, I'll give it until after week 5 against the Redskins (I think) to see if our offense becomes more consistent or whatnot. 

I just don't see how you can be that great, but not have a better game than anticipated. He was hot, pass after pass after pass but the offense couldn't capitalize. That's a question mark on coaching right there. 

[PurpleCity5]

1 hour ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Don't think Flacco had an "off game" by any measurement. Think he may easily have been our best offensive player out there today.

He certainly made some guys who didn't play well look very, very good when it was all said and done.

I may have been wrong there because he certainly was our best player on offense but 21 straight completions? I surely would have expected a better game. But here's my gripe with Trestman. It's not that he's calling bad plays all game. 21 straight completions? You are doing your job as an OC and dialing the defense up, my thing is, what part are you playing when it comes to cashing in? I have to be honest, I haven't been impressed with our offense in the red-zone and on opponents 20. It seems like we've been settling on FGs too often and that seemed to be the case today. Had Flacco made some plays in the red-zone, then would we be looking at a game that has come down to the wire? 

I know Gus Bradley plays a cover 3 system that makes you go with the short passing game. I saw a lot of off-man today so clearly they weren't going to allow us to pass deep at all but I still wonder how you don't get those important TDs. Only one on the day? 

Edited September 26, 2016 by PurpleCity5

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

Another problem, is you are constantly changing personnell on every play, making it hard for players to get into a rhyrhm with each other 

[flynismo]

2 hours ago, terps85 said:

Who is saying Flacco had an off-game?

The usual trolls.

[Tank 92]

2 minutes ago, flynismo said:

The usual trolls.

lol..... They are showing up again.  Did you miss them?

[terps85]

1 hour ago, OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL said:

I am calling out the Offensive coaching staff:

Is there ANY offensive minded coach on this staff, or just a bunch of Yes men?

 

You have got to be kidding me with these pathetic Offensive game plans, and embarrasing routes these receivers are running.

This aint high school here fellas. You spend all summer, get Wallace, Perriman, Chris Moore speed guys, and this is the best Offense you can put on the field?

You mean to tell me you cant draw up plays to get your speedy guys the ball on space?? YAC

Give me a freakin break. The slowest and oldest players consistently get targeted in these basic routes, and fall down as soon as they get the ball.

 Old and slow and no imagination has got to go. 

We have to do better. 

 

The ground game is pathetic with Forsett in there.  Playbook becomes severely limited with no run game at all.  Playing a team that runs predominately zone is why the "slowest and oldest players" got targets and fell down.  Sit down in the zones.  Although I do agree they should get the younger guys more involved, I don't think the offensive staff/Trestman are doing a bad job at all.  They're just handicapped so much by the horrible run game.

[rmcjacket23]

1 hour ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I may have been wrong there because he certainly was our best player on offense but 21 straight completions? I surely would have expected a better game. But here's my gripe with Trestman. It's not that he's calling bad plays all game. 21 straight completions? You are doing your job as an OC and dialing the defense up, my thing is, what part are you playing when it comes to cashing in? I have to be honest, I haven't been impressed with our offense in the red-zone and on opponents 20. It seems like we've been settling on FGs too often and that seemed to be the case today. Had Flacco made some plays in the red-zone, then would we be looking at a game that has come down to the wire? 

I know Gus Bradley plays a cover 3 system that makes you go with the short passing game. I saw a lot of off-man today so clearly they weren't going to allow us to pass deep at all but I still wonder how you don't get those important TDs. Only one on the day? 

Scoring in the red zone has always been 100% about players making plays and execution. To be honest, red zone play calling really isn't that important in my eyes, because there's only so many possible plays and route combinations you can run when you're condensed to a 20 yard or shorter field.

Has to fall on the players and their lack of execution. 

Flacco's the leader of the offense so the burden always falls on him ultimately, but he's not the only one out there who needs to make plays. I haven't seen much in terms of playmaking from our WRs in the red zone all year, and surely not from the offensive line or running game. 

No coach in this league or in history can coach their way out of poor execution.

[flynismo]

4 hours ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

While I am in agreement that Trestman can be infuriating at times, we're not executing on some of his calls. And a lot of the calls we aren't executing on are good ones. Trestman has his moments of pure brilliance. He has just as many moments of pure crap as well, but he's not the primary issue here. It all starts with the oline, and most of our failure to run the ball can be attributed to that. 

 

We need a new center.. BADLY. 

It's amazing to me; we are seeing the perfect storm on offense, just like 2013...horrid OL play, no run game, receivers dropping too many big passes and not making enough plays...combined with absolute mind boggling play calls. And here we are, 3-0, thanks to superb defense and clutch play by our QB and K.

You're right indeed; Trestman does have his good moments. And far too often, we just don't execute -- whether that be Flacco missing on a pass, the WR screwing up, the OL not blocking. Now, ANY TIME where execution is  problem, the finger must first be pointed at the players, regardless of what the OC or DC is doing. There is no room for argument on that point, because if the players are not doing their job, it prevents the OC from doing his.

Before anyone mistakes that as me defending Trestman, I certainly am not doing that. Yeah, Flacco completed 21 straight, but why? Because JAX did the exact same thing to us as we did to CLE last week...they gave us underneath plays all day long, because at the end of the day they knew they could stop us at will on short yardage plays -- just don't give up the big play. How many of those 21 straight were check downs? At least three that I can remember, probably more. Hell, one of those completions went for a four yard loss! Flacco did what he was supposed to do and took what the defense gave him. But it was an absolute lack of creativity from Trestman. I mean seriously, I can't even remember seeing anyone doing something as simple as going in motion. It was just go line up at your spot, stand there then run your 4 yard route.

Trestman is absolutely not our only problem. But he is a problem. He certainly hasn't been an asset this far, and if you aren't an asset you are holding us back.

[flynismo]

15 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

lol..... They are showing up again.  Did you miss them?

actually, haven't even had time to miss them yet, been too busy arguing with the Fire Pees crowd

[terps85]

10 minutes ago, flynismo said:

It's amazing to me; we are seeing the perfect storm on offense, just like 2013...horrid OL play, no run game, receivers dropping too many big passes and not making enough plays...combined with absolute mind boggling play calls. And here we are, 3-0, thanks to superb defense and clutch play by our QB and K.

You're right indeed; Trestman does have his good moments. And far too often, we just don't execute -- whether that be Flacco missing on a pass, the WR screwing up, the OL not blocking. Now, ANY TIME where execution is  problem, the finger must first be pointed at the players, regardless of what the OC or DC is doing. There is no room for argument on that point, because if the players are not doing their job, it prevents the OC from doing his.

Before anyone mistakes that as me defending Trestman, I certainly am not doing that. Yeah, Flacco completed 21 straight, but why? Because JAX did the exact same thing to us as we did to CLE last week...they gave us underneath plays all day long, because at the end of the day they knew they could stop us at will on short yardage plays -- just don't give up the big play. How many of those 21 straight were check downs? At least three that I can remember, probably more. Hell, one of those completions went for a four yard loss! Flacco did what he was supposed to do and took what the defense gave him. But it was an absolute lack of creativity from Trestman. I mean seriously, I can't even remember seeing anyone doing something as simple as going in motion. It was just go line up at your spot, stand there then run your 4 yard route.

Trestman is absolutely not our only problem. But he is a problem. He certainly hasn't been an asset this far, and if you aren't an asset you are holding us back.

This is literally their defensive scheme man. They run cover 3 pretty much exclusively.  It wouldn't make sense to consistently call deep routes against a defense designed to stop deep throws.

[PurpleCity5]

9 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Scoring in the red zone has always been 100% about players making plays and execution. To be honest, red zone play calling really isn't that important in my eyes, because there's only so many possible plays and route combinations you can run when you're condensed to a 20 yard or shorter field.

Has to fall on the players and their lack of execution. 

Flacco's the leader of the offense so the burden always falls on him ultimately, but he's not the only one out there who needs to make plays. I haven't seen much in terms of playmaking from our WRs in the red zone all year, and surely not from the offensive line or running game. 

No coach in this league or in history can coach their way out of poor execution.

For sure the players have to do their part when they get there but our red-zone has been a bigger problem this year than in a while honestly thus far. We've had more success in the red-zone and scoring plays with considerably less talent. Now we're dealing with an offense that still has to build chemistry and trust, but when you get continue to hit on play after play after play, and get stopped on the end-zone, then yeah, you have to execute better but most importantly I question how you dial up the defense that well, but look sluggish in the end. Now maybe the players need to play with more urgency, or maybe you have to get more creative because like you said, not enough room when you only got 20 yards of space. 

[Tiznut]

1 hour ago, Warren said:

Prediction: Trestman will be fired this off season.

Bam!!  Firing our oc worked in 2012

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

3 hours ago, flynismo said:

It's amazing to me; we are seeing the perfect storm on offense, just like 2013...horrid OL play, no run game, receivers dropping too many big passes and not making enough plays...combined with absolute mind boggling play calls. And here we are, 3-0, thanks to superb defense and clutch play by our QB and K.

You're right indeed; Trestman does have his good moments. And far too often, we just don't execute -- whether that be Flacco missing on a pass, the WR screwing up, the OL not blocking. Now, ANY TIME where execution is  problem, the finger must first be pointed at the players, regardless of what the OC or DC is doing. There is no room for argument on that point, because if the players are not doing their job, it prevents the OC from doing his.

Before anyone mistakes that as me defending Trestman, I certainly am not doing that. Yeah, Flacco completed 21 straight, but why? Because JAX did the exact same thing to us as we did to CLE last week...they gave us underneath plays all day long, because at the end of the day they knew they could stop us at will on short yardage plays -- just don't give up the big play. How many of those 21 straight were check downs? At least three that I can remember, probably more. Hell, one of those completions went for a four yard loss! Flacco did what he was supposed to do and took what the defense gave him. But it was an absolute lack of creativity from Trestman. I mean seriously, I can't even remember seeing anyone doing something as simple as going in motion. It was just go line up at your spot, stand there then run your 4 yard route.

Trestman is absolutely not our only problem. But he is a problem. He certainly hasn't been an asset this far, and if you aren't an asset you are holding us back.

Trestman to me is that girl who is a 6 who hangs out with a bunch of 9s. We could certainly do a lot worse, but we could also do a lot better. I think this season is proving that it was a lack of defensive talent on that side of the ball with Pees. We're overly talented on offense everywhere except the line. Im convinced that if we had a better run game we'd get more creative playcalling(a lot of people dont seem to understand that when they stack the box its the most opportune moment to go deep) at least on passing downs. 

 

I have a feeling Trestman gets fired. I dont think hes bad, hes just not a fit here