Merged: Ravens Fire Marc Trestman

[JoeyFlex5]

Today was a microcosm of the problem with trestman and every oc we have ever had... 

Our offense is designed a specific way, we have the advantage of speed, no amount of deep coverage can stop every deep receiver,  there's no coverage ceiling against us, and the deeper you play the safeties then the bigger The gap our wrs can find in the intermediate. This is a huge advantage, it allows us to take advantage of it when the dbs play stingy. 

Today, the secondary gave us the deep ball all game, Our offense is designed to exploit that game plan, that game plan was WORKING, when we went deep we marched, because it's our strength and that's what they have us, but instead we went against our philosophy and identity, played into their gameplan, and literally made life easy for the bills.

We have to stop being cute on offense. Do what we do best, which is go deep, and THEN when the defense gives us the short game, take the short game, but when the defense is allowing us to play to our strengths and sits on the sticks and waits for the tackle, MAKE THEM PAY FOR IT... 

Man, I do not understand.

[Adreme]

The O-Line could not get protection for the mid level passing game, what exactly makes you think they would suddenly be able to protect the deep routes which take even longer to develop.

The core problems today were that the O-Line up the middle was horrible and that Flacco was a bit timid coming off surgery.  Hopefully both of those can be resolved because all the weapons in the world do not matter if you are not able to get them the ball.

[PurpleCity5]

5 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Today was a microcosm of the problem with trestman and every oc we have ever had... 

Our offense is designed a specific way, we have the advantage of speed, no amount of deep coverage can stop every deep receiver,  there's no coverage ceiling against us, and the deeper you play the safeties then the bigger The gap our wrs can find in the intermediate. This is a huge advantage, it allows us to take advantage of it when the dbs play stingy. 

Today, the secondary gave us the deep ball all game, Our offense is designed to exploit that game plan, that game plan was WORKING, when we went deep we marched, because it's our strength and that's what they have us, but instead we went against our philosophy and identity, played into their gameplan, and literally made life easy for the bills.

We have to stop being cute on offense. Do what we do best, which is go deep, and THEN when the defense gives us the short game, take the short game, but when the defense is allowing us to play to our strengths and sits on the sticks and waits for the tackle, MAKE THEM PAY FOR IT... 

Man, I do not understand.

As far as the cute stuff goes, It doesn't go well most of the time but that Mike Wallace sweep play was huge for this team. I surely didn't see that one coming and neither did the defense. That pretty much put the game away. I'm not apposed to doing it once a while honestly but it doesn't work well when we try to do it multiple times. Just doesn't 

Edited September 11, 2016 by PurpleCity5

[PurpleCity5]

39 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

Zuttah got owned. I thought the rooks played very well. 

Yanda was great, Stanley was good, Wagner and Lewis were solid but Zuttah was atrocious. I mean plays were getting broken down in large part because of him and good gosh he was getting push around on run plays again and again and again.

[terps85]

The Bills have a very good defense and probably the best CB tandem in the NFL.  Now if the offensive struggles next week, then I think there is something wrong. However I just don't see it happening. 

[JoeyFlex5]

32 minutes ago, Adreme said:

The O-Line could not get protection for the mid level passing game, what exactly makes you think they would suddenly be able to protect the deep routes which take even longer to develop.

The core problems today were that the O-Line up the middle was horrible and that Flacco was a bit timid coming off surgery.  Hopefully both of those can be resolved because all the weapons in the world do not matter if you are not able to get them the ball.

The short routes weren't open because they were being sat on. You open everything up when you utilize the deep game. Short routes take time to develop because of the frequent stop and go required to run a strong short route.

Again, when we went deep, we cruised down the field, when we went short Our receivers got sat on and we produced nothing. So how is it that we couldn't go deep when we went deep with ease in 2 out of the 4 quarters today?

[Moderator 3]

1 minute ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

The short routes weren't open because they were being sat on. You open everything up when you utilize the deep game. Short routes take time to develop because of the frequent stop and go required to run a strong short route.

Again, when we went deep, we cruised down the field, when we went short Our receivers got sat on and we produced nothing. So how is it that we couldn't go deep when we went deep with ease in 2 out of the 4 quarters today?

Maybe since we had a lead and it was a hot day, our coaching staff decided to just do enough to hang on.  Not out of the question that they didn't want to show more or risk more than necessary this early in the season.

[Adreme]

26 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

The short routes weren't open because they were being sat on. You open everything up when you utilize the deep game. Short routes take time to develop because of the frequent stop and go required to run a strong short route.

Again, when we went deep, we cruised down the field, when we went short Our receivers got sat on and we produced nothing. So how is it that we couldn't go deep when we went deep with ease in 2 out of the 4 quarters today?

It was not with ease considering all those times Flacco got sacked.  Having a deep play offense requires protection because routes take time to develop and at no point could he hold the ball for any real length of time without getting hit.  The Bills realized this and sat on the short routes which is why the offense sputtered in the 2nd half.  

[Ravensfan23]

38 minutes ago, Adreme said:

The O-Line could not get protection for the mid level passing game, what exactly makes you think they would suddenly be able to protect the deep routes which take even longer to develop.

The core problems today were that the O-Line up the middle was horrible and that Flacco was a bit timid coming off surgery.  Hopefully both of those can be resolved because all the weapons in the world do not matter if you are not able to get them the ball.

This is 100% correct. Poor interior oline play and Flacco just wasn't himself today. I mean great job of coming back from the injury but he was clearly effected by it. He threw flat footed all day and left so many play or should I say yards on the field all game. If Flacco is stepping into this throws and hitting guys in stride the offense has a much better performance today. 

 

4 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

The short routes weren't open because they were being sat on. You open everything up when you utilize the deep game. Short routes take time to develop because of the frequent stop and go required to run a strong short route.

Again, when we went deep, we cruised down the field, when we went short Our receivers got sat on and we produced nothing. So how is it that we couldn't go deep when we went deep with ease 2 out of the 4 quarters today?

Your QB and Oline have to be on point when going deep. Trestman called plenty of deep routes but even play action didn't give Joe enough time to hit them. There was an adjustment made from the first half to the 2nd on both sides. Both Trestman and Rex/Rob adjusted to the fact that Flacco just wasn't driving the ball and as someone else said was playing timid. This is when the Bills started dialing up more blitz packages. The Ravens have really good space to make plays and RAC yards all day, but again either the protection was poor or Flacco just didn't hit guys in stride. Far too many times guys had to go to the grass to complete a catch when it should have been a rac opportunities. Also Joe was getting the ball out of his hands quicker which didn't allow things to develop at times. As well as Flacco played he wasn't himself and it made Trestman and the offensive performance as a whole look worse than what it was. imo

[JoeyFlex5]

8 minutes ago, Adreme said:

It was not with ease considering all those times Flacco got sacked.  Having a deep play offense requires protection because routes take time to develop and at no point could he hold the ball for any real length of time without getting hit.  The Bills realized this and sat on the short routes which is why the offense sputtered in the 2nd half.  

Then why did the offense come back alive every time we took deep shots? Because the pressure was erratic and guys weren't getting open short because it was all covered, they gave us the intermediate and sat in the short and we didn't take what they gave us. We saw the difference when we attacked the intermediate.

[flynismo]

2 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

Yanda was great, Stanley was good, Wagner and Lewis were solid but Zuttah was atrocious. I mean plays were getting broken down in large part because of him and good gosh he was getting push around on run plays again and again and again.

Yanda certainly wasn't great today by any stretch. But yeah, Zuttah was far worse

[BmoreBird22]

Just throwing this out there, but Flacco was 3 of 5 on passes that went over 20 yards, those being the Perriman catch, Wallace touchdown, and Pitta diving catch.

[mdrsharon]

Of course watching on tv, you can't see everything. Hard to see the complete positioning on the field. I do find it hard to believe when Joe wants to throw and doesn't , he cannot find anyone open .  Do these secondaries close us down that much? Watching other QB s they seem to be able to make things happen .

[Adreme]

3 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Then why did the offense come back alive every time we took deep shots? Because the pressure was erratic and guys weren't getting open short because it was all covered, they gave us the intermediate and sat in the short and we didn't take what they gave us. We saw the difference when we attacked the intermediate.

We also saw Flacco get sacked a lot holding the ball most likely for said deep shots which is a risk you take when you decide to air it deep which is why it could be constantly done.  When they were able to pick up the blitz then yes it worked wonderfully but if the Ravens had done nothing but throw deep as you suggest they would do nothing but blitz and Flacco would get destroyed before getting almost every pass off.  

[Inqui]

4 hours ago, terps85 said:

The Bills have a very good defense and probably the best CB tandem in the NFL.  Now if the offensive struggles next week, then I think there is something wrong. However I just don't see it happening. 

Struggling next week wouldn't necessarily mean there are dire systemic issues with our system since we often seem to struggle to move the ball on the road. It depends on the circumstances really. The games I'm more interested in are weeks four and five at home against the Raiders and then Washington. Again it depends on the circumstances (if Khalil Mack goes bonkers and single-handedly gets nine sacks and 25 TFLs there's really not much you can do), but if we end up cobbling together two 2013-esque wins I'd be more concerned.

But I agree that the Bills have a fantastic secondary (depleted front seven or no) and there's no doubt that was at least part of why we didn't look like the Greatest Show on Turf. How big a part remains to be seen, like you say, but we've got to pay homage to what the other side did well. It'd feel a little dismissive if Bills fans said the only reason they couldn't move the ball was that their offence had played terribly, as opposed to our defence playing well and trying new stuff.

[Inqui]

5 hours ago, Adreme said:

The O-Line could not get protection for the mid level passing game, what exactly makes you think they would suddenly be able to protect the deep routes which take even longer to develop.

The core problems today were that the O-Line up the middle was horrible and that Flacco was a bit timid coming off surgery.  Hopefully both of those can be resolved because all the weapons in the world do not matter if you are not able to get them the ball.

I think this is getting unfairly negged. Joe (unsurprisingly) doesn't look like the Joe of old yet - especially regarding his mobility - Zuttah was a turnstile and even Yanda had an off day of sorts. A lot of the short passing plays also didn't look like Joe's first option, in that he'd hold the ball for a couple of seconds and then release a safe pass to Aiken, Sr or a RB, so the plays people are getting frustrated by could well have been bailouts where the deeper WRs either weren't open or Joe didn't feel comfortable throwing to them as opposed to planned dink and dunk plays.

[Maryland]

20 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

first snap of game or 2nd half: designed dump off. 

most first downs thereafter: run up the middle for little to no gain. 

2nd downs: another run or a PA bomb. 

3rd downs: quick pass short of the marker. 

not that its 100% exact lol but this sequence of playcalls happens often.

 

and no he definitely isnt as bad as cam or caldwell, those dudes were seriously elementary, they call plays like they coach for baylor. trestman is way beyond them but still gets drawn into his own tendencies too much at times. i do like trestman for our style of offense though, i just wish we would decide on a working run scheme, we failed with the inside zone in 2013, lit it up with the stretch in 2014, last year we were meh with the inside zone, and im guessing were doing inside zone again this year, so we'll see, but i like him coordinating the passing game for the most part, i just wish he handled the run game better.

Man, i have to strongly disagree with the bolded part. There were plenty of times last year where he would throw on first down, and then surprise me by throwing again on second down (since most times teams run after throwing on first down). It's probably because we had to throw to keep pace with the opponent, but still.

It seems like you're overgeneralizing here, maybe nitpicking at some bad habits that Trestman has as a play-caller. When I think of predictable, I think of being able to look at a formation and the personnel on the field and guess accurately pre-snap what the offense is going to do, which is something that was easy to do with Caldwell. With Trestman, I might know his tenancies, but I don't know for certain what he's calling on a given play based on formation. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by Maryland

[flynismo]

18 hours ago, mdrsharon said:

Of course watching on tv, you can't see everything. Hard to see the complete positioning on the field. I do find it hard to believe when Joe wants to throw and doesn't , he cannot find anyone open .  Do these secondaries close us down that much? Watching other QB s they seem to be able to make things happen .

More often than not, that is precisely what happens. The thing with Flacco is, he is the type who seems allergic to throwing the ball away; he would rather hold onto to the ball in hopes of an opening to either get a pass off, or perhaps run with it. If he threw the ball away every time it would be appropriate to, people would (rightly) complain that he is too conservative. Because he holds onto it so long so often, it makes these instances of WR not getting open glaringly obvious.

Yesterday, we can thank the horrid, predictable play calling for allowing the BUF defense to sit on every short route all game long.

 

* edit

Just came across this snippet from Bills Jerry Hughes:

“The secondary did a tremendous job of making [ Joe Flacco ] work. Any time a quarterback is going through his reads like that, it’s a perfect opportunity for a pass rusher like me. The secondary was doing fantastic. [The defensive line] has got to get back there more times, help [the secondary] out and take some of the workload off of them.”

See bolded part; Flacco was going through his progressions, just not finding any opportunities

Edited September 12, 2016 by flynismo

[OUravensfan]

19 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

As far as the cute stuff goes, It doesn't go well most of the time but that Mike Wallace sweep play was huge for this team. I surely didn't see that one coming and neither did the defense. That pretty much put the game away. I'm not apposed to doing it once a while honestly but it doesn't work well when we try to do it multiple times. Just doesn't 

I think we got over zealous with the pitch outs as well

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

I hope Trestman is seeing the plays the Deadskins are running on the Squeelers. Desean Jackson CROSSING ROUTE for big yards. Runs up the gut. Hint, hint 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

23 hours ago, Moderator 3 said:

Maybe since we had a lead and it was a hot day, our coaching staff decided to just do enough to hang on.  Not out of the question that they didn't want to show more or risk more than necessary this early in the season.

Even with the "you can't stop every deep bomb philosophy"

1. Even with Flacco's arm strength, and arguably him having the best deep bomb in the NFL, he won't connect every time. And if you keep incorperating it, they'll be prepared for it far more. 

2. Darby and Gillmore. Both have 4.38 40 times. And are excellent cover men. Why is the Perriman catch so impressive? Great coverage. Which it was. Gillmore just couldn't do anything about it. Both of these guys are just very good players. I'm not surprised that SSR didn't do anything. When you've got two corners of this caliber plus a safety who's a pretty good player like Corey Graham, who btw is also familiar with our playbook, going deep should be done sparring you. Wallace was able to beat him deep because he's faster, while Perriman was just all effort. Usually, that catch Perriman has is either an INT or a deflection/incompletion. Flacco already seems to trust him, which is a good sign. 

3. You have a point. There are days to play it safe. Yesterday was one of them. Rex Ryan for all his faults as a HC is a defensive genius. He always brings it to us hard. When you have the lead vs a Rex Ryan team and you're being aggressive you're at a very high risk of making mistakes. When it's a close defensive grudge match usually the team that makes the mistakes loses. I hate it say it, because I hate it but there is a time and a place to be conservative. We've all seen what the offense is capable of doing. 

 

 

But to play devil's advocate....

 

Why didn't you use the TEs Trestman? That's not stupid, that's smart. We have three more than capable pass catchers there and they have crappy LBs. Pitta and Maxx have great hands and Crockett is a bull. You should have used two TE sets and made them pay. 

 

That said. Still excited for this offense. We have 3 legit deep threats and two good possesion WRs. Flacco needs to knock off the rust and the left side of the line needs to improve. 

 

It may not be this year, but next year should be fun to watch. 

[ellicottraven]

4 minutes ago, LosT_in_TranSlatioN said:

Even with the "you can't stop every deep bomb philosophy"

1. Even with Flacco's arm strength, and arguably him having the best deep bomb in the NFL, he won't connect every time. And if you keep incorperating it, they'll be prepared for it far more. 

2. Darby and Gillmore. Both have 4.38 40 times. And are excellent cover men. Why is the Perriman catch so impressive? Great coverage. Which it was. Gillmore just couldn't do anything about it. Both of these guys are just very good players. I'm not surprised that SSR didn't do anything. When you've got two corners of this caliber plus a safety who's a pretty good player like Corey Graham, who btw is also familiar with our playbook, going deep should be done sparring you. Wallace was able to beat him deep because he's faster, while Perriman was just all effort. Usually, that catch Perriman has is either an INT or a deflection/incompletion. Flacco already seems to trust him, which is a good sign. 

3. You have a point. There are days to play it safe. Yesterday was one of them. Rex Ryan for all his faults as a HC is a defensive genius. He always brings it to us hard. When you have the lead vs a Rex Ryan team and you're being aggressive you're at a very high risk of making mistakes. When it's a close defensive grudge match usually the team that makes the mistakes loses. I hate it say it, because I hate it but there is a time and a place to be conservative. We've all seen what the offense is capable of doing. 

 

 

But to play devil's advocate....

 

Why didn't you use the TEs Trestman? That's not stupid, that's smart. We have three more than capable pass catchers there and they have crappy LBs. Pitta and Maxx have great hands and Crockett is a bull. You should have used two TE sets and made them pay. 

 

That said. Still excited for this offense. We have 3 legit deep threats and two good possesion WRs. Flacco needs to knock off the rust and the left side of the line needs to improve. 

 

It may not be this year, but next year should be fun to watch. 

In my mind, if I'm being totally honest, that catch made by Perriman would not be made by any other receiver on our team past or present. That was just an incredibly tough catch with a top corner draped all over you, on the sideline extending both arms fully, contorted and yet high pointing the ball and coming down with it. Incredible. It was ranked as the 5th best catch made by a receiver on NFL.com. I completely disagree. It was easily one of the two top catches just based on the degree of difficulty on that catch. Incredible!

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

5 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

In my mind, if I'm being totally honest, that catch made by Perriman would not be made by any other receiver on our team past or present. That was just an incredibly tough catch with a top corner draped all over you, on the sideline extending both arms fully, contorted and yet high pointing the ball and coming down with it. Incredible. It was ranked as the 5th best catch made by a receiver on NFL.com. I completely disagree. It was easily one of the two top catches just based on the degree of difficulty on that catch. Incredible!

Also being totally honest.. That's a catch a #1 WR makes. Which is his ceiling. The slant he had later I was not too upset about. He was about to be clobbered and had the ball knocked out. Now had he been wide open and dropped it, yeah I'd be furious. Perriman needs to improve on taking those hits, but at least he's willing to take them. Which is a good thing. 

 

 

[The Raven]

Interesting note -- Many have said Yanda had an off day, and I couldn't disagree at first, but PFF gave him the highest grade on our oline, an 83.8, ranked third overall at his position so far this season. Makes me wonder how much of the pressure was due to poor scheming or miscomms with Zuttah.

[RaineV1]

9 hours ago, The Raven said:

Interesting note -- Many have said Yanda had an off day, and I couldn't disagree at first, but PFF gave him the highest grade on our oline, an 83.8, ranked third overall at his position so far this season. Makes me wonder how much of the pressure was due to poor scheming or miscomms with Zuttah.

It's also worth noting that Yanda also had troubles in 2013 when the entire line was awful. Yanda is great but he can't babysit the guys around him, or fix a scheme that isn't working.

[Tank 92]

22 hours ago, The Raven said:

Interesting note -- Many have said Yanda had an off day, and I couldn't disagree at first, but PFF gave him the highest grade on our oline, an 83.8, ranked third overall at his position so far this season. Makes me wonder how much of the pressure was due to poor scheming or miscomms with Zuttah.

Not sure if you've seen this, but Ken's assessment kinda mirrors what my uneducated eyes saw.

http://russellstreetreport.com/2016/09/13/filmstudy/offensive-line-grades-notes-buffalo/

 

[The Raven]

2 hours ago, Tank 92 said:

Not sure if you've seen this, but Ken's assessment kinda mirrors what my uneducated eyes saw.

http://russellstreetreport.com/2016/09/13/filmstudy/offensive-line-grades-notes-buffalo/

 

Hadn't seen it yet - busy day at work.

This time, I'll disagree with Ken. Typically I consider his word gospel, but there's no way I'm giving Wagner a better grade than Yanda for that game. I mean I was pretty toasted during the game, but yeah. Neither played well to me. 

[allblackraven]

I still hate Trestman's play calling. This was the second week in a row we managed to do something offensively only after Flacco took charge. It's almost like we're scared before Joe's intervention.

[Rav'n Maniac]

9 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

I still hate Trestman's play calling. This was the second week in a row we managed to do something offensively only after Flacco took charge. It's almost like we're scared before Joe's intervention.

I don't understand why we often throw short of the 1st down marker on 3rd downs. That just drives me nuts week in and week out.

[Ravensfan23]

On 9/20/2016 at 4:35 PM, allblackraven said:

I still hate Trestman's play calling. This was the second week in a row we managed to do something offensively only after Flacco took charge. It's almost like we're scared before Joe's intervention.

Scare to do what exactly? Throw the ball deep to Moore for a Td only to have him drop it? The offense was moving all game, it was just having drives stall because of drops and poor oline play early one. Flacco pointed to the 2 minute drive as a result of the offense opening things up. If that's the case than I have to question exactly when Flacco spoke to Trestman because Pitta had an opportunity to make the same catch on a 3&7 the drive before but he dropped it. The very next play Flacco hit Pitta down the seams on a skinny post for a big play. It was the nearly the same exact play that Moore dropped the TD. Get your inside guy matched up with a safety across the middle of the field.