Is Harbaugh on the Hot Seat Yet

[chesapeakeaviator]

9 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Yea i don't really get the hate on McDaniels either,  he is a great OC,  I am curious what he could do for flacco.   The issue in Denver was he had complete control of the roster if I remember correctly.   While you and I disagree about Harbs,  I would like McDaniels here if we were to let harbs go.   Sometimes you just need a fresh face,  I think harbs is on the hot seat next year.  

What he did for Bradford in St. Louis, following a 7-9 year with Pat Shurmur as OC where he had 3512 yards on 60% comp with 18 TD and 15 INT as a rookie:

No.	Player	Age	[ profanity deleted]	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	QBR	Sk	Yds	NY/A	ANY/A	Sk%	4QC	GWD
8	Sam Bradford	24	QB	10	10	1-9-0	191	357	53.5	2164	6	1.7	6	1.7	68	6.1	5.6	11.3	216.4	70.5	24.25	36	248	4.88	4.49	9.2	1	1

Again, just saying I think there are questions about how great an OC he actually is, and his record outside of New England doesn't suggest that he can repeat what he did there anywhere else.

 

 

[Tru11]

3 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

Well that is what McDaniels did in Denver, ran everyone out of town and brought terrible players like Kyle Orton in because they fit his system. You continue to toot his horn though. What am I supposed to interpret you as saying?

That he could make a terrible QB look okay in his system? Well we have an okay QB looking okay now. Swapping an okay QB playing okay with a terrible QB playing okay doesn't fix this team. 

instead of making up stuff up or assuming things you can actually go back and read what i said.

i said he is an good OC.
i said he might be a good HC ( people might actually learn from past mistakes)
i also said keep him away from personell decisions and drafting and it might work out.

Also im not going to discuss our current QB way of playing nor will i attempt to compare his stats to those of those terrible QBs that played in mcdaniels system since people get riled up way to quick if i suggest or QB is not the 2nd coming of jesus.

 

[usmccharles]

3 minutes ago, wizard1 said:

The trauma will be burned in your memory for years to come. We all may end up needing therapy before this is over.

Wonder if I can bill Biscotto?

Don't bogart that bottle buddy !

Absolute please!

Honestly I'm more frustrated with years we've wasted the dominant defenses we've had.   

And Titos please. 

[DefensiveMind]

He needs to be. Instead of saying we need to play better after EVERY game, how about light a fire under the players. They are soft and need to man up

[usmccharles]

13 minutes ago, chesapeakeaviator said:

What he did for Bradford in St. Louis, following a 7-9 year with Pat Shurmur as OC where he had 3512 yards on 60% comp with 18 TD and 15 INT as a rookie:

No.	Player	Age	[ profanity deleted]	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	QBR	Sk	Yds	NY/A	ANY/A	Sk%	4QC	GWD
8	Sam Bradford	24	QB	10	10	1-9-0	191	357	53.5	2164	6	1.7	6	1.7	68	6.1	5.6	11.3	216.4	70.5	24.25	36	248	4.88	4.49	9.2	1	1

Again, just saying I think there are questions about how great an OC he actually is, and his record outside of New England doesn't suggest that he can repeat what he did there anywhere else.

 

 

Clearly there is questions since he has such a great HC and Brady as a QB.   I don't know how he would be as a HC,  but if we're to let go of harbs,  I wouldn't mind McDaniels.  Maybe a young fire coach is what this team needs,  but I'm still behind harbs 

[52520Andrew]

27 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

instead of making up stuff up or assuming things you can actually go back and read what i said.

i said he is an good OC.
i said he might be a good HC ( people might actually learn from past mistakes)
i also said keep him away from personell decisions and drafting and it might work out.

Also im not going to discuss our current QB way of playing nor will i attempt to compare his stats to those of those terrible QBs that played in mcdaniels system since people get riled up way to quick if i suggest or QB is not the 2nd coming of jesus.

 

Well maybe you should read what I am trying to say before responding to my posts as you are the one who initiated this argument. I am saying we should not bring him anywhere near here and that the Patriots don't need him at OC.

YOU brought up how he did well with terrible Orton, I pointed out he is the one who traded for him in the first place. You then tried to say Orton is better than Cutler even though you just had said Orton is terrible and isn't in the NFL anymore. Then you tried to pass it off as McDaniels getting the guy to fit his system which I also don't think is good and my latest posts are what could happen if a guy like that came in here as I don't think Flacco fits his system(more a gunslinger as opposed to the dink and dunk you see in New England). You keep defending the guy here, you disagree over something. Based on what I said in my stance was above and through this argument, what do YOU disagree on? 

We haven't even brought up you know who here, all I have said prior to this post is he has been an okay QB playing okay. Where have I called him the second coming? 

Edited October 24, 2016 by 52520Andrew

[MTRavensFan]

26 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

instead of making up stuff up or assuming things you can actually go back and read what i said.

i said he is an good OC.
i said he might be a good HC ( people might actually learn from past mistakes)
i also said keep him away from personell decisions and drafting and it might work out.

Also im not going to discuss our current QB way of playing nor will i attempt to compare his stats to those of those terrible QBs that played in mcdaniels system since people get riled up way to quick if i suggest or QB is not the 2nd coming of jesus.

 

Can you name one head coach in this league who has zero input on drafting or personnel decisions?  One?

How on earth would that even work? That's just crazy. 

[AsianRice]

14 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Clearly there is questions since he has such a great HC and Brady as a QB.   I don't know how he would be as a HC,  but if we're to let go of harbs,  I wouldn't mind McDaniels.  Maybe a young fire coach is what this team needs,  but I'm still behind harbs 

The dude who had big crush on Tebow and traded the whole farm for him?  

It's a hell-raiser if it's ever happened......

 

PS:  We aren't that desperate to find a HC...our organization is one of the best stable organizations that will lure big time coach for us....not McDaniels....

[usmccharles]

Just now, AsianRice said:

The dude who had big crush on Tebow and traded the whole farm for him?  

It's a hell-raiser if it's ever happened......

 

PS:  We aren't that desperate to find a HC...our organization is one of the best stable organizations that will lure big time coach for us....not McDaniels....

As I said before, I don't want to let Harbs go, I was simply stating I wouldn't mind McDaniels if we did fire Harbs.  However, I wouldn't want him in control of the roster like he was in Denver.  Also, some people do make mistakes and actually learn from them.  He wouldn't be my first choice, was just commenting on the topic at hand. 

[Tru11]

3 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Clearly there is questions since he has such a great HC and Brady as a QB.   I don't know how he would be as a HC,  but if we're to let go of harbs,  I wouldn't mind McDaniels.  Maybe a young fire coach is what this team needs,  but I'm still behind harbs 

he did pretty well with Orton in Denver and Cassel earned a great contract tnx to him.
people actually believe brady is not that good and the pats are winning tnx to the system Mcdaniels has been running.
heck garoppolo and driskell where also believed to doing pretty well in that system.

so its actually weird to see people downplay the ability of that OC.

 

[Tru11]

5 minutes ago, MTRavensFan said:

Can you name one head coach in this league who has zero input on drafting or personnel decisions?  One?

How on earth would that even work? That's just crazy. 

read better.

im talking about him making the decisions.

there are few HC who can make all the decisions.

Mcdaniels if he becomes one should not be one of them.

I said nothing about him not having any input.

there is a huge difference between having input and having the ability to make the final decision.....

[usmccharles]

7 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

he did pretty well with Orton in Denver and Cassel earned a great contract tnx to him.
people actually believe brady is not that good and the pats are winning tnx to the system Mcdaniels has been running.
heck garoppolo and driskell where also believed to doing pretty well in that system.

so its actually weird to see people downplay the ability of that OC.

 

Couldn't agree more.  It's like people are so stubborn they refuse to give any credit to another team, players, or coaches

2 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

read better.

im talking about him making the decisions.

there are few HC who can make all the decisions.

Mcdaniels if he becomes one should not be one of them.

I said nothing about him not having any input.

there is a huge difference between having input and having the ability to make the final decision.....

People cant grasp this concept

[AsianRice]

1 minute ago, Tru11 said:

he did pretty well with Orton in Denver and Cassel earned a great contract tnx to him.
people actually believe brady is not that good and the pats are winning tnx to the system Mcdaniels has been running.
heck garoppolo and driskell where also believed to doing pretty well in that system.

so its actually weird to see people downplay the ability of that OC.

 

You do know the big boss behind him is Belichick right? the dude literally runs the whole organization...Whatever McDaniels plans on the offense have be consulted by Belichick. McDaniels is good cuz he is in an well-organized and established system.  There's no sense of drop-off when he left the Patriots in 2009-2011.

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, chesapeakeaviator said:

I'm not saying I'm right.  I could be completely wrong and you might be right.  I'm just saying that I'm reacting the same way you might if you went to Los Angeles and they were talking about hiring Cam Cameron to resurrect their offense.  I think I understand why no one wanted to give this guy another shot at it, and why New England feels the need to politic for his hiring in public.

I really appreciate the praise. It always means a lot to hear nice things from people.

On this topic though, I'm not saying that McDaniels should be the next Ravens coach or that he'll be the next great. I'm more or less saying that we're judging him off of 28 games, as if he couldn't learn, change, fix anything from then until now. He's worked with BB since 2011 or 12, correct? That's a really good coach to learn under and ask questions about what went wrong.

Does that mean he'll absorb it and really truly change and learn? Nah, of course not. However, he did an interview and he seemed to actually give sincere answers on how he'd do things differently, such as just listening to his entire coaching staff on decisions instead of thinking his way or no way.

I also think it'd help to reign him in, ala Chip Kelly, instead of having him be the defacto GM. I think only currently three coaches have that responsibility and it is BB, Carroll, and Reid, three guys you associate as top 5 HC's in the NFL. I don't think a coach who was relatively new to coaching in general should have been given as much power as he was.

I think he could do well in Baltimore just because he'd bring a very strong offensive mind, but I'm not going to sit here, like some people, and say that he would be the best possible choice and he'd be an excellent head coach. Based off of those 28 games, we have nothing to say he would be a great head coach. However, on the flip side, we've seen a lot of first time head coaches flounder and get their act together in a major turnaround.

[berad]

McDaniels' punter called him "a little punk". His punter! He traded us a boatload of picks to move up for Tebow. He has terrible rapport with players (they don't want to play for him) and his teams lack mental toughness. Check out any Youtube video on him, it's embarassing.

Harbaugh's seat is warming but it would be a gigantic step backwards to choose Josh McDaniels. Ask any Broncos fan or media member.

[Tru11]

12 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

Well maybe you should read what I am trying to say before responding to my posts as you are the one who initiated this argument. I am saying we should not bring him anywhere near here and that the Patriots don't need him at OC.

YOU brought up how he did well with terrible Orton, I pointed out he is the one who traded for him in the first place. You then tried to say Orton is better than Cutler even though you just had said Orton is terrible and isn't in the NFL anymore. Then you tried to pass it off as McDaniels getting the guy to fit his system which I also don't think is good and my latest posts are what could happen if a guy like that came in here as I don't think Flacco fits his system(more a gunslinger as opposed to the dink and dunk you see in New England). You keep defending the guy here, you disagree over something. Based on what I said in my stance was above and through this argument, what do YOU disagree on? 

We haven't even brought up you know who here, all I have said prior to this post is he has been an okay QB playing okay. Where have I called him the second coming? 

maybe you should read better.

i asked you if you meant system guy as an insult or as praise.

you then answer with it supposed to be a fact and you could even do the job.

i then asked you why you where not an OC.

you then said its because they are many that are better then you but Mcdaniels is not 1 of them apparently.

its actually funny that you argue that  the pats dont need him but the only time they won a SB in the past 10 years was with him as the OC.
heck Brady historical season came with him as the OC.
they went 18-1 behind that offensive juggernaut of a season with him as an OC.

in 7 seasons as him being the OC they went to 2 SB winning 1 and to 4 Championship games with the team leaning on the offense the most.

 

 

 

 

[AsianRice]

6 minutes ago, berad said:

McDaniels' punter called him "a little punk". His punter! He traded us a boatload of picks to move up for Tebow. He has terrible rapport with players (they don't want to play for him) and his teams lack mental toughness. Check out any Youtube video on him, it's embarassing.

Harbaugh's seat is warming but it would be a gigantic step backwards to choose Josh McDaniels. Ask any Broncos fan or media member.

Lots of people don't realize; it's hard for a person to change who he is in a short amount of times, especially he's coming out from Belichick's school....

 

It's not gigantic step backward but a suicide mission per say....

 

There's plenty of good and great coaches out there who are waiting for the right moment to join the stable organization they want to be in.......

[usmccharles]

9 minutes ago, berad said:

McDaniels' punter called him "a little punk". His punter! He traded us a boatload of picks to move up for Tebow. He has terrible rapport with players (they don't want to play for him) and his teams lack mental toughness. Check out any Youtube video on him, it's embarassing.

Harbaugh's seat is warming but it would be a gigantic step backwards to choose Josh McDaniels. Ask any Broncos fan or media member.

Him giving up those picks wasn't that smart, but I do admire him for having a guy he wanted and went after him.  Id rather move up to get the guy I really want and fail, then end up drafting a last resort player and him failing. 

[Tru11]

11 minutes ago, AsianRice said:

You do know the big boss behind him is Belichick right? the dude literally runs the whole organization...Whatever McDaniels plans on the offense have be consulted by Belichick. McDaniels is good cuz he is in an well-organized and established system.  There's no sense of drop-off when he left the Patriots in 2009-2011.

You do know Belichick has a background as a defensive minded coach right?

Also not counting the Cassel season , the only times the Pats did not make it at least to the conference final was when he was gone.
Not to mention the only time they won the SB in the past 10 years was when he was the OC.

Making the conference final 6 out of 7 seasons with 2 being a SB appearance with winning 1 is pretty darn impressive.
The 1 season they did not make the play offs was when he has cassel and even then they wen 11-5.

Weis about the only guy who did a better job although id argue those teams where more defensive minded.

 

[usmccharles]

2 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

You do know Belichick has a background as a defensive minded coach right?

Also not counting the Cassel season , the only times the Pats did not make it at least to the conference final was when he was gone.
Not to mention the only time they won the SB in the past 10 years was when he was the OC.

Making the conference final 6 out of 7 seasons with 2 being a SB appearance with winning 1 is pretty darn impressive.
The 1 season they did not make the play offs was when he has cassel and even then they wen 11-5.

Weis about the only guy who did a better job although id argue those teams where more defensive minded.

 

And they were still 11-5...

[berad]

5 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Him giving up those picks wasn't that smart, but I do admire him for having a guy he wanted and went after him.  Id rather move up to get the guy I really want and fail, then end up drafting a last resort player and him failing. 

Moving up and giving up high dollar picks compounds the error when you select a bust. The best picks, in terms of building a team and winning games, are weighted with value.

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, chesapeakeaviator said:

What he did for Bradford in St. Louis, following a 7-9 year with Pat Shurmur as OC where he had 3512 yards on 60% comp with 18 TD and 15 INT as a rookie:

No.	Player	Age	[ profanity deleted]	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	QBR	Sk	Yds	NY/A	ANY/A	Sk%	4QC	GWD
8	Sam Bradford	24	QB	10	10	1-9-0	191	357	53.5	2164	6	1.7	6	1.7	68	6.1	5.6	11.3	216.4	70.5	24.25	36	248	4.88	4.49	9.2	1	1

Again, just saying I think there are questions about how great an OC he actually is, and his record outside of New England doesn't suggest that he can repeat what he did there anywhere else.

While we can't totally ignore how inept the Rams offense was in 2011, I think it is very unfair to isolate just McDaniels. That Rams team was voted (by Football Outsiders) as the worst team of 2011, suggesting they were garbage from top to bottom. They also had one of the hardest, if not the hardest, schedules in the NFL. 

Also, that offensive depth chart is cringeworthy. The roster as a whole was pretty bad, but I'm sure it didn't help Bradford one bit to lose his top receiver in Amendola (one game) and his two starting tackles in Saffold (nine games) and Smith (six games).

I will never forget that game as being the breakout game for Torrey Smith. He could have easily had four or five touchdowns if Joe had placed the ball a little bit better on a few of those deep throws. Torrey was just killing them.

Basically a perfect storm there in St. Louis.

[AsianRice]

1 minute ago, Tru11 said:

You do know Belichick has a background as a defensive minded coach right?

Also not counting the Cassel season , the only times the Pats did not make it at least to the conference final was when he was gone.
Not to mention the only time they won the SB in the past 10 years was when he was the OC.

Making the conference final 6 out of 7 seasons with 2 being a SB appearance with winning 1 is pretty darn impressive.
The 1 season they did not make the play offs was when he has cassel and even then they wen 11-5.

Weis about the only guy who did a better job although id argue those teams where more defensive minded.

 

In 2011, they went to the Finals and lost to the Giants when he was coaching the Rams; yes, he has his own of playbook of the offense and has some unique mind about schemes and play callings, but that doesn't equate on him being a good HC. He is ok for OC job, but not for HC jobs.  

Has he done anything but losing ever since he had a HC job?

The man is set to be a failure at HC job.

You do know being HC and coordinator are distinctively two different things, right?

[Cillmatic]

7 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Him giving up those picks wasn't that smart, but I do admire him for having a guy he wanted and went after him.  Id rather move up to get the guy I really want and fail, then end up drafting a last resort player and him failing. 

So wasting one draft pick for a bad player is worse than wasting MULTIPLE draft picks for a bad player?

[usmccharles]

Just now, berad said:

Moving up and giving up high dollar picks compounds the error when you select a bust. The best picks, in terms of building a team and winning games, are weighted with value.

Im not disagreeing, im just saying I respect the fact he was willing to go after the guy he wanted. Clearly he was wrong.  What if we would have done that for Dez? If this scenario happened its not like he would have the power here to make the decisions like in Denver

[usmccharles]

1 minute ago, Cillmatic said:

So wasting one draft pick for a bad player is worse than wasting MULTIPLE draft picks for a bad player?

And if Tebow would of been the next Brady, would it be dumb? I wouldn't have done it, most wouldn't have. 

[Tru11]

18 minutes ago, AsianRice said:

In 2011, they went to the Finals and lost to the Giants when he was coaching the Rams; yes, he has his own of playbook of the offense and has some unique mind about schemes and play callings, but that doesn't equate on him being a good HC. He is ok for OC job, but not for HC jobs.  

Has he done anything but losing ever since he had a HC job?

The man is set to be a failure at HC job.

You do know being HC and coordinator are distinctively two different things, right?

you do know i said he is a very good OC right?

you do know i also said he might be good as a HC if you limit his power right?

I did not say he is a good HC.
i did not argue that he is a good HC.
i did not even suggest that he is a good HC.

English is not my primary language so correct me if im wrong but im pretty confident that i used the word might in the correct way.

Is there a particular reason that you and others dont understand the way i used the word might?

pretty sure by using the word might i presented it as an option and not as  a fact like you and some here are trying to make it out to be.....

PS: page 14 9th post from the top i think, you can read what i said about Mcdaniels.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Tru11
added the PS part.

[ellicottraven]

1 hour ago, MTRavensFan said:

Can you name one head coach in this league who has zero input on drafting or personnel decisions?  One?

How on earth would that even work? That's just crazy. 

Its not input but what kind of input that matters. If there is a coach that says I want the best player available regardless of position when we pick its one thing or even if it is the best positional player for that pick. But, if a coach (I'm just speculating here) says I don't care if he is the best player at the position or even the best player available when we pick, I want the best player available that is also great at special teams play is when poor draft choices can happen. I suspect John's input in the draft isn't optimal or even great just going by our draft picks since 2009. He had minimal input on the 08 draft when Flacco and Rice were selected because he was a rookie HC and was feeling his way around. I don't think he could've overruled Ozzie and Eric at that point.

[Steve0x]

Why you want Harbaugh out? Its not his fault. 

[Inqui]

1 hour ago, Tru11 said:

he did pretty well with Orton in Denver and Cassel earned a great contract tnx to him.
people actually believe brady is not that good and the pats are winning tnx to the system Mcdaniels has been running.
heck garoppolo and driskell where also believed to doing pretty well in that system.

so its actually weird to see people downplay the ability of that OC.

 

I'd love to have him on the staff in some capacity - I'd love to bring in his system and how mind-blowingly simple yet effective it is - but the chances of him leaving New Ingerlund for a lateral move are up there with my chances of becoming President of the US so I think the whole "is he a good OC [personally I think he is]?" issue is academic.

I'm open to evaluating Harbaugh come the end of the season, but if we replace him I hope it's not to bring in McDaniels. How many people are out there who make great coordinators but turn out to be absolutely dire HCs? A lot of Jacksonville fans are hoping they get rid of one such example soon.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Inqui