2017 O line

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, Jacquouille said:

 

I'm not sure we need to change the whole OL. Zuttah has put it together lately, so getting one of Nelson/Feeney/Elflein or even Pocic/Johnson would push our OLine to top 10, possibly top5. A bit of quality depth with guys like Damien Mama or Kyle Fuller on Day3 would be the icing on the cake.

 

Let's not forget we also want a CB, Pass rusher and a WR...

I'm not sure zuttah is the long term answer. He's an average center, not bad when healthy at all but nothing special, and he's been injured quite a bit in his career, injuries add up and cause a player to age prematurely. Plus the difference between an average center and an elite one is astronomical, it makes such a huge difference. Without Travis Frederick the cowboys line would be middle of the pack, without pouncey the Steelers line would be the same(they've improved with Villanueva but pouncey is their elite guy) those guys tie that whole line together and create push in the middle which allows the guards to really dominate in the ground game. We will never have that with zuttah.

[rmw10]

2 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I'm not sure zuttah is the long term answer. He's an average center, not bad when healthy at all but nothing special, and he's been injured quite a bit in his career, injuries add up and cause a player to age prematurely. Plus the difference between an average center and an elite one is astronomical, it makes such a huge difference. Without Travis Frederick the cowboys line would be middle of the pack, without pouncey the Steelers line would be the same(they've improved with Villanueva but pouncey is their elite guy) those guys tie that whole line together and create push in the middle which allows the guards to really dominate in the ground game. We will never have that with zuttah.

I'm not one to believe that Zuttah is elite, but looking around the league, I'd much rather have him than most guys.  An elite C would be great, but how many teams actually have that?  C's aren't falling from the sky.  It's a tough position, and there are so many teams that do not have even a quality player there.  I get the desire for a great C, but it's not like it's easy to find one.  Just because you draft a guy doesn't mean it's going to work out.  Zuttah might not be a long-term answer, but I have 0 problems with him here for another year or two.

[JoeyFlex5]

33 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I'm not one to believe that Zuttah is elite, but looking around the league, I'd much rather have him than most guys.  An elite C would be great, but how many teams actually have that?  C's aren't falling from the sky.  It's a tough position, and there are so many teams that do not have even a quality player there.  I get the desire for a great C, but it's not like it's easy to find one.  Just because you draft a guy doesn't mean it's going to work out.  Zuttah might not be a long-term answer, but I have 0 problems with him here for another year or two.

Well elite centers are hard to find, and elflein very well could be one. He's probably the best C prospect since Frederick. 

At the very worst I think elflein is a very quality guard, best case scenario he pans out to be a top 3 center. There just isn't much to worry about with him, he just appears rock solid.

[rmw10]

27 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Well elite centers are hard to find, and elflein very well could be one. He's probably the best C prospect since Frederick. 

At the very worst I think elflein is a very quality guard, best case scenario he pans out to be a top 3 center. There just isn't much to worry about with him, he just appears rock solid.

But how many prospects have gotten that label? Just because a guy looks that way doesn't mean he'll actually turn out that way. 

[JoeyFlex5]

8 hours ago, rmw10 said:

But how many prospects have gotten that label? Just because a guy looks that way doesn't mean he'll actually turn out that way. 

Goes for literally every single prospect. So you obviously take the better looking ones because theoretically it gives you a better chance to make a good call in a crapshoot.

[Moderator 3]

33 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Goes for literally every single prospect. So you obviously take the better looking ones because theoretically it gives you a better chance to make a good call in a crapshoot.

Ugly bias?  

[rmw10]

59 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Goes for literally every single prospect. So you obviously take the better looking ones because theoretically it gives you a better chance to make a good call in a crapshoot.

Exactly my point.  Why get rid of a solid player to just hand the keys over to a rookie who may or may not be as good as advertised?  I just don't understand why there's such a hurry to get rid of Zuttah when he's actually better than a good portion of the starting Cs across the league.

[JoeyFlex5]

25 minutes ago, Moderator 3 said:

Ugly bias?  

Ehh everyone's biased for their guys. I was biased for vh3 big time lol

[reed20]

20 hours ago, Jacquouille said:

 

I'm not sure we need to change the whole OL. Zuttah has put it together lately, so getting one of Nelson/Feeney/Elflein or even Pocic/Johnson would push our OLine to top 10, possibly top5. A bit of quality depth with guys like Damien Mama or Kyle Fuller on Day3 would be the icing on the cake.

 

Let's not forget we also want a CB, Pass rusher and a WR...

I wouldn't mind John Ross in the second but even after SSS retires, that position is not as big a need as we might think. Wallace, Perriman, and Aiken can be a good core. SSS retiring will allow BP to see a lot more playing time.

[JoeyFlex5]

10 hours ago, rmw10 said:

Exactly my point.  Why get rid of a solid player to just hand the keys over to a rookie who may or may not be as good as advertised?  I just don't understand why there's such a hurry to get rid of Zuttah when he's actually better than a good portion of the starting Cs across the league.

I never said get rid of him. Im never an advocate for just cutting a player for the hell of it unlike seemingly a majority of posters here. But if you can find a better, long term option as a 2nd round pick with a potentially elite ceiling at a crucial position, then by all means... 

And having a guy like zuttah still on the roster gives said player a mentor, he would allow him time to learn if he isn't ready to start right away, and could provide quality depth in the event that he IS ready to start. 

Also, he may be better than about half the centers in the league, but that makes him an average/decent center, and he is only at that level when healthy, hes no yanda and can't just play through injuries either, when he takes the field at any less than 100% he is a massive liability, and he's had a somewhat extensive injury history so you can't exactly depend on him every year. Drafting a very good center basically eliminates all worries about starting and backup center for the remainder of zuttahs contract and could very well alleviate future concerns at center.

[rmw10]

34 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I never said get rid of him. Im never an advocate for just cutting a player for the hell of it unlike seemingly a majority of posters here. But if you can find a better, long term option as a 2nd round pick with a potentially elite ceiling at a crucial position, then by all means... 

And having a guy like zuttah still on the roster gives said player a mentor, he would allow him time to learn if he isn't ready to start right away, and could provide quality depth in the event that he IS ready to start. 

Also, he may be better than about half the centers in the league, but that makes him an average/decent center, and he is only at that level when healthy, hes no yanda and can't just play through injuries either, when he takes the field at any less than 100% he is a massive liability, and he's had a somewhat extensive injury history so you can't exactly depend on him every year. Drafting a very good center basically eliminates all worries about starting and backup center for the remainder of zuttahs contract and could very well alleviate future concerns at center.

That's largely what I was getting at.  Maybe I read it wrong from you, but I have no problems trying to upgrade the position.  I just think a lot of people are making it out like Zuttah is the worst C to ever grace a football field and that finding an upgrade should be a piece of cake.  Zuttah has a decently high salary, so the possibility always remains that he could be cut.  I just don't consider it a shoe in like many do.  If it was my choice, I'd much rather have Zuttah around and make a new guy earn the spot before I just cut one of the middle of the road Cs.  We can do better, but we can also do a lot worse.

My apologies if I misunderstood what you were getting at.

[Dubs]

I'm kinda hoping/expecting the C position will follow a similar path as LT last year. We had Monroe and in all likelihood had the intentions of keeping him if there was no capable rookie waiting in the wings. Luckily we take Stanley and things become a little more simple. Obviously Monroe had even more of an injury past and other things cropping up but the Zuttah situation may fall in a similar line. I would be surprised though if the option is between a first rounder and Zuttah so I expect the situation to be a lot more murky than last year with LT. We should see a bunch of the C's at the senior bowl so that may be a differentiating ground after the second round

[JoeyFlex5]

2 hours ago, rmw10 said:

That's largely what I was getting at.  Maybe I read it wrong from you, but I have no problems trying to upgrade the position.  I just think a lot of people are making it out like Zuttah is the worst C to ever grace a football field and that finding an upgrade should be a piece of cake.  Zuttah has a decently high salary, so the possibility always remains that he could be cut.  I just don't consider it a shoe in like many do.  If it was my choice, I'd much rather have Zuttah around and make a new guy earn the spot before I just cut one of the middle of the road Cs.  We can do better, but we can also do a lot worse.

My apologies if I misunderstood what you were getting at.

It's all good lol yeah there's enough ragers on the boards to cause that kind of confusion. I'm always big on having veteran presence and solid depth so I would definitely want to keep zuttah. I was one of the guys defending him his whole time here saying he's been a quality addition. I've ranted about his failures early in the season plenty but I've never advocated cutting him.

[reed20]

We can do better than Zuttah. Too many times have I seen the defensive line shift and leave Zuttah clueless as to who to block while one of our guards is getting double teamed.

Edited December 21, 2016 by reed20

[ravefan52]

20 hours ago, reed20 said:

I wouldn't mind John Ross in the second but even after SSS retires, that position is not as big a need as we might think. Wallace, Perriman, and Aiken can be a good core. SSS retiring will allow BP to see a lot more playing time.

I really disagree. Almost every year WR is thin and they rely too heavily on a couple guys stepping up or staying healthy. Wallace is good, but will be 31 next season. Receivers usually start losing speed around 30 and that's mostly what Wallace brings to the table. I'm a huge fan of Perriman's potential, but he's not good yet and relying on our ability to develop that position has rarely worked. Aiken is a reliable target, but very average. So imo the starters look pretty meh and there's little depth. Camp hasn't shown he can stay healthy for longer than a few game span and Moore hasn't done anything. Ozzie will probably sign a vet, but it'll be a cheap stop gap and some more talented youth would be welcomed. Besides, most WR's take a little while longer to develop. Flacco is the only top-tierish QB in the league who doesn't get a lot of investment in his weapons.

[TurkishRaven]

How many olineman you guys expect us to draft? Any high round picks(1-4)? 

I am torn between picking 2 olineman in the first 4 and picking 2 DE in the first 4. My locks are 1 CB and 1 safety. 

 

[reed20]

13 hours ago, ravefan52 said:

I really disagree. Almost every year WR is thin and they rely too heavily on a couple guys stepping up or staying healthy. Wallace is good, but will be 31 next season. Receivers usually start losing speed around 30 and that's mostly what Wallace brings to the table. I'm a huge fan of Perriman's potential, but he's not good yet and relying on our ability to develop that position has rarely worked. Aiken is a reliable target, but very average. So imo the starters look pretty meh and there's little depth. Camp hasn't shown he can stay healthy for longer than a few game span and Moore hasn't done anything. Ozzie will probably sign a vet, but it'll be a cheap stop gap and some more talented youth would be welcomed. Besides, most WR's take a little while longer to develop. Flacco is the only top-tierish QB in the league who doesn't get a lot of investment in his weapons.

Perriman has a bad case of the drops at times but for the most part he has not had the playing time yet to really showcase a big year. I think we can live with those 3 at our core for another season. Remember that we also have Pitta and Dixon in the receiving game. If anything though if we can land a big time tight end in free agency, Flacco could have his best year as he loves throwing the ball to tight ends more than receivers. Theres talk that Gronk could be on his way out as he is injured often and New England is high on Bennett.

Edited December 22, 2016 by reed20

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

On 12/13/2016 at 4:35 AM, Cillmatic said:

Hate to break it to our guys but we're not picking a O-lineman in the the first two or three rounds. WR, CB and pass rusher are much bigger needs.

Are you Ozzie? No. Okay. Then you don't know what we're going to do. We are either at the mercy of other teams, or are going to take advantage of other team's (namely the Browns cause let's face it, they're the laughingstock of the NFL until further notice) failures. If Dan Feeny is the bpa in the first round then we will pounce because he's the BPA and a need

[GrimCoconut]

What teams in the NFL have the best OL and what do those teams have in common? Hint: their mostly good at the center position.

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

What teams in the NFL have the best OL and what do those teams have in common? Hint: their mostly good at the center position.

This.

[hn68wb4]

6 hours ago, TurkishRaven said:

How many olineman you guys expect us to draft? Any high round picks(1-4)? 

I am torn between picking 2 olineman in the first 4 and picking 2 DE in the first 4. My locks are 1 CB and 1 safety. 

 

I expect us to take two, one in the top 3 rounds, one in the mid rounds. Our lack of depth just can't be ignored early, and Hurst as backup LT just has to change, even a rookie mid rounder would provide at baseline as much as Hurst does when he plays.

As much as I'd like a safety somewhat early, I don't think it's a lock, I can definitely see us passing simply because there are better positions available - but I can also see us going there earlier than expected if someone falls to us.

[JoeyFlex5]

7 minutes ago, hn68wb4 said:

I expect us to take two, one in the top 3 rounds, one in the mid rounds. Our lack of depth just can't be ignored early, and Hurst as backup LT just has to change, even a rookie mid rounder would provide at baseline as much as Hurst does when he plays.

As much as I'd like a safety somewhat early, I don't think it's a lock, I can definitely see us passing simply because there are better positions available - but I can also see us going there earlier than expected if someone falls to us.

If we resign Wagner then we have one of the better backup LTs in the league. Lewis had his struggles but I've seen far worse. Most teams don't have the luxury of a quality backup LT and Lewis is about as good as you could realistically hope for.

[RaineV1]

3 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

What teams in the NFL have the best OL and what do those teams have in common? Hint: their mostly good at the center position.

Center is such an underrated position. I think someone like Elflein could make our line amazing.

Edited December 23, 2016 by RaineV1

[JoeyFlex5]

13 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

Center is such an underrated position. I think someone like Elflein could make our line amazing.

I don't think people understand how important it is. An elite center can make a really bad OL appear average. They can make average guard tandems look elite Because They coordinate the whole line and the guards can play more confident and they don't have to worry about their inside shoulder. 

I also don't think people understand what a difference an elite center would make. When zuttah is healthy our line is solid but inconsistent, That's our weakest link, with an elite center our entire line becomes elite, we can successfully run all run schemes, inside zone, stretch, man/gap/power(can't run pulling plays with An average center), Joe could step up in the pocket since his tackles can successfully push edge rushers deep, hes always played his best ball when he is able to step up in the pocket which is something he hasn't had since birk was here. 

[GrimCoconut]

11 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I don't think people understand how important it is. An elite center can make a really bad OL appear average. They can make average guard tandems look elite Because They coordinate the whole line and the guards can play more confident and they don't have to worry about their inside shoulder. 

I also don't think people understand what a difference an elite center would make. When zuttah is healthy our line is solid but inconsistent, That's our weakest link, with an elite center our entire line becomes elite, we can successfully run all run schemes, inside zone, stretch, man/gap/power(can't run pulling plays with An average center), Joe could step up in the pocket since his tackles can successfully push edge rushers deep, hes always played his best ball when he is able to step up in the pocket which is something he hasn't had since birk was here. 

While I'm not going to agree with the notion that an elite center makes a bad OL look good (I assume that was more of an exaggerated example to make a point) but I will agree that a top-shelf center makes everyone else look better. 

[JoeyFlex5]

4 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

While I'm not going to agree with the notion that an elite center makes a bad OL look good (I assume that was more of an exaggerated example to make a point) but I will agree that a top-shelf center makes everyone else look better. 

basically lol, although i said it can make a bad line look average, not good.

[Darhk_Raven]

Has anyone read Matt Miller's latest scouting report? In it he asked a scout did he see any OL getting a round one grade and the scouts response was "he'll no." What are you guys thoughts on this?

[Jacquouille]

15 minutes ago, Darhk_Raven said:

Has anyone read Matt Miller's latest scouting report? In it he asked a scout did he see any OL getting a round one grade and the scouts response was "he'll no." What are you guys thoughts on this?

Disagree. There are at least two interior OL I'd take in the first, namely Elflein and Nelson. I think the scout thought more about the OT class because otherwise it's solid enough.

[jboy19]

12 hours ago, Darhk_Raven said:

Has anyone read Matt Miller's latest scouting report? In it he asked a scout did he see any OL getting a round one grade and the scouts response was "he'll no." What are you guys thoughts on this?

Its really hard for pure guards to get round 1 grades, but theres definitely a couple above average starters on the OL imo. I could justify Ramczyk, Elflein, Feeney, Lamp (and maybe a few others) as going in round 1. The problem is the "top 10 guys" on the OL going into this season didn't pan out well (Cam Robinson and Roderick Johnson) or declared pretty early they were returning to school (Mike McGlinchey). 

But I still scratch my head over seeing Joshua Garnett going in the 1st last year over Cody Whitehair- so who knows. 

[RaineV1]

10 hours ago, jboy19 said:

Its really hard for pure guards to get round 1 grades, but theres definitely a couple above average starters on the OL imo. I could justify Ramczyk, Elflein, Feeney, Lamp (and maybe a few others) as going in round 1. The problem is the "top 10 guys" on the OL going into this season didn't pan out well (Cam Robinson and Roderick Johnson) or declared pretty early they were returning to school (Mike McGlinchey). 

But I still scratch my head over seeing Joshua Garnett going in the 1st last year over Cody Whitehair- so who knows. 

Whitehair had a bad combine, and looked weak during the benchpress part. It just goes to show how little that part actually means to someone's ability to play o-lineman.