The Run Game

[K-Dog]

Might want to post this in the preexisting thread on the run game. 

It is a pretty good thread with lots of great thoughts and opinions. 

Dive on in...

[balfan23]

5 hours ago, Sami84 said:

wouldnt shock me if we did a mid season trade for a center..

maybe if the jets are out of contention we could get nick mangold?

Yeah - I suppose that could be a possibility, if the situation continues. I'm not sure what approach we'll take, but I have a feeling they aren't going to sit idle as we struggle up front. 

[Moderator 3]

1 hour ago, K-Dog said:

Might want to post this in the preexisting thread on the run game. 

It is a pretty good thread with lots of great thoughts and opinions. 

Dive on in...

Merged

[K-Dog]

Just now, Moderator 3 said:

Merged

You are the best !!!!!!!

[Ravensfan23]

I'll be traveling out of town during the game tomorrow so I won't see it, but will do my best to listen while in the airport. Anyway, I'll very interested in seeing how the RB situation plays out. I'd personally go with West and Buck as the 2 guys this week, but Forsett is a vet who probably has a long leash so i'm sure he won't be inactive. 

So others have pointed to it already, but I see a lot of 2013 Ray Rice in Forsett this year. Imo Forsett was never a dynamic RB but more so a guy who just got what the oline blocked for him and had great patients. Now that patients seems more like indecisiveness because Forsett is no longer quick enough to quickly hit the hole. He just seems slow and clumsy at times. If this team is truly about allowing the best options to help you win, than Forsett shouldn't be a big part of the offense right now. 

I feel West should not only get the start but should be that workhorse type of back that carries the run game vs Oak. While the oline has to block better, I feel West has done a much better job of getting not only the yards that are blocked up but that extra 1-2 yards after contact. He's spinning, pushing and seemingly doing whatever he can to make sure he falls forward. Imo the biggest reason why West should get the bulk of the carries is because he's the type that can wear down a defense. Those 2-3 yard gains he gets early in the game will soon turn to 6-7 yard gains and a long run or 2. He mentioned in his presser how RB by committee kind of sucks because you aren't allowed to get into a groove and i have to agree with him. Trestman doesn't focus on the run as it is, so when you're a RB only getting about 10 carries a game it makes it a bit tougher. I think feeding West will only open up Play action and help create massive space in the defense. 

The reason I think Buck should get an opportunity this game is because Forsett is giving the offense absolutely nothing right now. I know Buck has his flaws and as a 2nd year player that's to be expected, Pass pro is a huge part of being a RB in this system, especially with the oline not as good right now, so if Buck hasn't shown improvement to coaches he'll continue to be inactive. However I don't think you can defy the fact that he can bring something to this offense that Forsett isnt right now. When Dixon comes back this will probably be a different story, but right now, I think Buck is clearly good enough to help this offense. He was actually used like a WR at times last year and that's just another thing to add stress to the defense. 

Harbs said there may be some tweaks to the running game, I think that starts with West gettig the bulk of the snaps and maybe even Buck being active. 

[JoeyFlex5]

i too think forsett needs to have a seat. hes a detriment. it feels like everytime were moving the ball and then he touches it the drive stalls, he is absolutely killing us with a total lack of running ability and even worse bad decision making. 

everytime a defender gets within 10 yards of him he buries himself under the field. 

buck allen at the very least brings the same value that forsett does on 3rd down, likely much more, because when buck catches a dump off he at least is gonna make an effort to churn out yards, and he brings the same in pass protection if not more because he wont fold in half the second a defender penetrates. forsett does none of that, hes just kinda there, like if we dont wanna take a sack on 3rd down but we dont wanna gain any yards either, dump it to forsett! if we want it to be 2nd and 10, hand it to forsett! if we want to stop the clock late in the 4th quarter when we desperately need to clock to tick, give it to forsett!

[Maryland]

19 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i too think forsett needs to have a seat. hes a detriment. it feels like everytime were moving the ball and then he touches it the drive stalls, he is absolutely killing us with a total lack of running ability and even worse bad decision making. 

everytime a defender gets within 10 yards of him he buries himself under the field. 

buck allen at the very least brings the same value that forsett does on 3rd down, likely much more, because when buck catches a dump off he at least is gonna make an effort to churn out yards, and he brings the same in pass protection if not more because he wont fold in half the second a defender penetrates. forsett does none of that, hes just kinda there, like if we dont wanna take a sack on 3rd down but we dont wanna gain any yards either, dump it to forsett! if we want it to be 2nd and 10, hand it to forsett! if we want to stop the clock late in the 4th quarter when we desperately need to clock to tick, give it to forsett!

I have to say, those Forsett dump-off passes are remarkably ineffective. Even an average pass-catching RB gets you at least a few yards. 

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, Maryland said:

I have to say, those Forsett dump-off passes are remarkably ineffective. Even an average pass-catching RB gets you at least a few yards. 

most plays involving forsett are remarkably ineffective lol.

ive never been a forsett fan, even in 2014 when he was setting the world on fire i knew with 100% certainty it was a system thing, i was rooting for him then because obviously he was a big part of us winning that year, he did his job within the system very well, but now that we need a real runner he is failing miserably, which i knew was going to happen.

[PurpleCity5]

I echo the same settlements. This offense goes nowhere when Forsett is on the field. He just doesn't break tackles anymore, nor does he makes guys miss. He doesn't have the elusiveness that he used to have. He doesn't get Yards after contact like West does. I think West should be the starter and given the majority of the carries, I just don't know if he's a workhorse. I just see Forsett as relief but we're getting Dixon back so this is a situation to only worry about today. 

[KBoum]

2 hours ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I echo the same settlements. This offense goes nowhere when Forsett is on the field. He just doesn't break tackles anymore, nor does he makes guys miss. He doesn't have the elusiveness that he used to have. He doesn't get Yards after contact like West does. I think West should be the starter and given the majority of the carries, I just don't know if he's a workhorse. I just see Forsett as relief but we're getting Dixon back so this is a situation to only worry about today. 

and lets be honest, on most if not all his big yards runs in 2014, it wasnt a personnal effort, he was untouched and went for 20-40 yards. I don't remember how many 20 yards runs he got in 2014 but that was the most of the league and he went untouched behing Yanda, Wagner in that zone concept. He had great vision yes but he wasnt making people miss or breaking tackles

[Rav'n Maniac]

5 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i too think forsett needs to have a seat. hes a detriment. it feels like everytime were moving the ball and then he touches it the drive stalls, he is absolutely killing us with a total lack of running ability and even worse bad decision making. 

everytime a defender gets within 10 yards of him he buries himself under the field. 

buck allen at the very least brings the same value that forsett does on 3rd down, likely much more, because when buck catches a dump off he at least is gonna make an effort to churn out yards, and he brings the same in pass protection if not more because he wont fold in half the second a defender penetrates. forsett does none of that, hes just kinda there, like if we dont wanna take a sack on 3rd down but we dont wanna gain any yards either, dump it to forsett! if we want it to be 2nd and 10, hand it to forsett! if we want to stop the clock late in the 4th quarter when we desperately need to clock to tick, give it to forsett!

Well you may be getting your wish:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000712959/article/ravens-justin-forsett-benched-west-to-get-the-start

 

[edthehead]

watching NFL gameday first on rapsheet he just said Forsett is benched for today 

[edthehead]

1 minute ago, Rav'n Maniac said:

Well you may be getting your wish:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000712959/article/ravens-justin-forsett-benched-west-to-get-the-start

 

you are fast sensei

lol  

[Davesta]

Wonder if I should pick west up in my fantasy. 

[January J]

7 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

I'll be traveling out of town during the game tomorrow so I won't see it, but will do my best to listen while in the airport. Anyway, I'll very interested in seeing how the RB situation plays out. I'd personally go with West and Buck as the 2 guys this week, but Forsett is a vet who probably has a long leash so i'm sure he won't be inactive. 

So others have pointed to it already, but I see a lot of 2013 Ray Rice in Forsett this year. Imo Forsett was never a dynamic RB but more so a guy who just got what the oline blocked for him and had great patients. Now that patients seems more like indecisiveness because Forsett is no longer quick enough to quickly hit the hole. He just seems slow and clumsy at times. If this team is truly about allowing the best options to help you win, than Forsett shouldn't be a big part of the offense right now. 

I feel West should not only get the start but should be that workhorse type of back that carries the run game vs Oak. While the oline has to block better, I feel West has done a much better job of getting not only the yards that are blocked up but that extra 1-2 yards after contact. He's spinning, pushing and seemingly doing whatever he can to make sure he falls forward. Imo the biggest reason why West should get the bulk of the carries is because he's the type that can wear down a defense. Those 2-3 yard gains he gets early in the game will soon turn to 6-7 yard gains and a long run or 2. He mentioned in his presser how RB by committee kind of sucks because you aren't allowed to get into a groove and i have to agree with him. Trestman doesn't focus on the run as it is, so when you're a RB only getting about 10 carries a game it makes it a bit tougher. I think feeding West will only open up Play action and help create massive space in the defense. 

The reason I think Buck should get an opportunity this game is because Forsett is giving the offense absolutely nothing right now. I know Buck has his flaws and as a 2nd year player that's to be expected, Pass pro is a huge part of being a RB in this system, especially with the oline not as good right now, so if Buck hasn't shown improvement to coaches he'll continue to be inactive. However I don't think you can defy the fact that he can bring something to this offense that Forsett isnt right now. When Dixon comes back this will probably be a different story, but right now, I think Buck is clearly good enough to help this offense. He was actually used like a WR at times last year and that's just another thing to add stress to the defense. 

Harbs said there may be some tweaks to the running game, I think that starts with West gettig the bulk of the snaps and maybe even Buck being active. 

 

6 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i too think forsett needs to have a seat. hes a detriment. it feels like everytime were moving the ball and then he touches it the drive stalls, he is absolutely killing us with a total lack of running ability and even worse bad decision making. 

everytime a defender gets within 10 yards of him he buries himself under the field. 

buck allen at the very least brings the same value that forsett does on 3rd down, likely much more, because when buck catches a dump off he at least is gonna make an effort to churn out yards, and he brings the same in pass protection if not more because he wont fold in half the second a defender penetrates. forsett does none of that, hes just kinda there, like if we dont wanna take a sack on 3rd down but we dont wanna gain any yards either, dump it to forsett! if we want it to be 2nd and 10, hand it to forsett! if we want to stop the clock late in the 4th quarter when we desperately need to clock to tick, give it to forsett!

Good call fellas.

[edthehead]

this not meant to pile on Forsett,

but I do like the call let West loose and see what he have and soon Dixon will be back

Buck is bigger than forsett and we need that big body to continue to chip MACK,

thus help keeping him out the game

the raiders defense is the perfect game to try something new

whether it is a game or the future (please step up West,Buck and Dixon)

lets make a statement offense

4-0

[rmcjacket23]

The question is... is Forsett "benched" as in won't be active, or just not the "starter" anymore?

If its the latter... I'm not convinced this means much. Forsett was the "starter" the first three weeks, but has only seen a grand total of one more carry than West.

Likely means West is in on run downs, with Forsett being used in pass protection and on passing downs. Don't really think the carry split is going to be weighted heavily towards West at this point.

The only "surprise" in my estimation would be if they activate Allen as the passing down back and make Forsett inactive.

[Ravensfan23]

1 hour ago, Rav'n Maniac said:

Well you may be getting your wish:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000712959/article/ravens-justin-forsett-benched-west-to-get-the-start

 

Pretty much knew this would be the case once West took the podium for the weekly presser. Usually only starter speak, but sometimes guys who have a major role as a sub speak as well so it wasn't a slam dunk, but had a pretty good idea West would get the start. 

Now I pose the question again that pretty much got slammed for asking once Forsett was cut the first time. If Forsett is ineffective(which he has been) and both West and Dixon do well(TBD) is Forsett at risk for being the odd man out if the Ravens want to sign Waller to the active roster? The obvious answer is we'll cross that bridge once we get there, but I think it's very likely. 

[rmcjacket23]

28 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Pretty much knew this would be the case once West took the podium for the weekly presser. Usually only starter speak, but sometimes guys who have a major role as a sub speak as well so it wasn't a slam dunk, but had a pretty good idea West would get the start. 

Now I pose the question again that pretty much got slammed for asking once Forsett was cut the first time. If Forsett is ineffective(which he has been) and both West and Dixon do well(TBD) is Forsett at risk for being the odd man out if the Ravens want to sign Waller to the active roster? The obvious answer is we'll cross that bridge once we get there, but I think it's very likely. 

I still personally don't think we have room for Waller on the active roster. His biggest value would be a ST player, meaning we could just cut another ST player (somebody like Carter) if that's all we're going to use him for.

Pretty evident we don't have room for two TEs getting targets in this offense, since we really aren't utilizing Crockett or Maxx in those roles right now, and I think both of them are better offensive weapons than Waller at this point.

I think he gets waived and ends up on the PS.

Plus, Forsett clearly seems to be far ahead of Buck Allen in terms of value to the team, so cutting Allen, a back who hasn't been very effective and can't even make the active 46, seems more likely. Hard to see a lot of long term value for him on this team, especially when we can retain West and Dixon very cheaply going forward.

Edited October 2, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[Ravensfan23]

23 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

I still personally don't think we have room for Waller on the active roster. His biggest value would be a ST player, meaning we could just cut another ST player (somebody like Carter) if that's all we're going to use him for.

Pretty evident we don't have room for two TEs getting targets in this offense, since we really aren't utilizing Crockett or Maxx in those roles right now, and I think both of them are better offensive weapons than Waller at this point.

I think he gets waived and ends up on the PS.

Plus, Forsett clearly seems to be far ahead of Buck Allen in terms of value to the team, so cutting Allen, a back who hasn't been very effective and can't even make the active 46, seems more likely. Hard to see a lot of long term value for him on this team, especially when we can retain West and Dixon very cheaply going forward.

1. I think the Ravens really like Waller more than just as a ST guy. Reports were that they loved his size, speed and ability to quickly press the safeties as a weapon at the TE. I'm not saying they immediately put him on the 53 but I wouldn't be surprised. I think PS is more likely landing spot though. 

2. I think we definitely have room for 2 TEs to get targets, it's just having 2 TEs that's worthy of getting targets. The Ravens need a stretch TE in this offense, which was the reason they attacked Watson so hard in FA. Pitta is still used in that role, but I think the Ravens would love to have another TE they could in that role. Neither Gilmore or Williams can perform in that role. They aren't as good of route runners as Pitta and niether has the size, speed and athleticism of a guy like Waller. They are more possession type guys who'll need to be schemed open in most cases, which isn't a bad thing, but much like Aiken you fight yourself buried with all the other targets Flacco has. Waller would bring something that no other TE on this roster can and that's the ability to attack the middle of the field deep, which makes it tougher for LBs and Safeties to sit on the run while also creating even more space in the defense. 

3. Forsett only have more value because he was the starter coming off of injury and the Ravens figured he'd still be able to lead this group as the lead RB, but that's clearly not the case now. Forsett looks old and indecisive. As I mention when Forsett was cut, if he falls behind both West and Dixon, even if Buck isn't active most games, you're not gonna pay Forsett to be a 3rd RB beyond this year. So why would you cut a 2nd year player, who is clearly not where you want him to be but is still developing, in favor for a RB who won't be here next year and is falling down the depth chart this year?

[Doc]

is it because it's been done that we don't run our full back to block for any of the running backs.

[Rav'n Maniac]

2 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Pretty much knew this would be the case once West took the podium for the weekly presser. Usually only starter speak, but sometimes guys who have a major role as a sub speak as well so it wasn't a slam dunk, but had a pretty good idea West would get the start. 

Now I pose the question again that pretty much got slammed for asking once Forsett was cut the first time. If Forsett is ineffective(which he has been) and both West and Dixon do well(TBD) is Forsett at risk for being the odd man out if the Ravens want to sign Waller to the active roster? The obvious answer is we'll cross that bridge once we get there, but I think it's very likely. 

Imo, It is certainly a possibility. Considering the weakness of OAK's run defense, I feel that if Forsett is inactive today and Buck plays, it seriously increases the odds of him being released.

[January J]

1 hour ago, Ravensfan23 said:

1. I think the Ravens really like Waller more than just as a ST guy. Reports were that they loved his size, speed and ability to quickly press the safeties as a weapon at the TE. I'm not saying they immediately put him on the 53 but I wouldn't be surprised. I think PS is more likely landing spot though. 

2. I think we definitely have room for 2 TEs to get targets, it's just having 2 TEs that's worthy of getting targets. The Ravens need a stretch TE in this offense, which was the reason they attacked Watson so hard in FA. Pitta is still used in that role, but I think the Ravens would love to have another TE they could in that role. Neither Gilmore or Williams can perform in that role. They aren't as good of route runners as Pitta and niether has the size, speed and athleticism of a guy like Waller. They are more possession type guys who'll need to be schemed open in most cases, which isn't a bad thing, but much like Aiken you fight yourself buried with all the other targets Flacco has. Waller would bring something that no other TE on this roster can and that's the ability to attack the middle of the field deep, which makes it tougher for LBs and Safeties to sit on the run while also creating even more space in the defense. 

3. Forsett only have more value because he was the starter coming off of injury and the Ravens figured he'd still be able to lead this group as the lead RB, but that's clearly not the case now. Forsett looks old and indecisive. As I mention when Forsett was cut, if he falls behind both West and Dixon, even if Buck isn't active most games, you're not gonna pay Forsett to be a 3rd RB beyond this year. So why would you cut a 2nd year player, who is clearly not where you want him to be but is still developing, in favor for a RB who won't be here next year and is falling down the depth chart this year?

I agree and I think waller adds a little something to the offense that we need. A big redzone threat who also has speed. He can do some real damage up the seam. The coaches are high on him and we will find a spot for him, esp since watson went down. His ST contributions only solidify his spot.

Just saw a report that said forsett is indeed INACTIVE. Still not confirmed though. If so I think this could go one of two ways- 1) its turns out to be a brilliant move- the young guys finally provide a spark and buck also makes some guys miss in the passing game with his shiftiness. Or 2) turns out to be a mistake- the same problems occur with the young guys and without forsett for extra pass protection on third downs our o line allows sack after sack and Flacco cant get into a rhythm.

Flacco just said he hopes to get Aiken more involved today.

[TNRaven24]

West and Buck Allen.... It's about time 

[Tiznut]

West did good. Sucks we lost but offensively there's hope 

[Maryland]

West did pretty good today. Buck Allen is a noticeable improvement over Forsett, especially in the passing game. I kind of expect Forsett to be released if they want to keep Waller on the roster. 

[JoeyFlex5]

I've known the line has been a problem but I've also said that you need guys who can churn out tough yards and that we stood no chance with forsett. 

Turns out that just maybe... Forsett was the biggest problem. Even buck Allen was worlds apart from forsett.

[trevorsteadman]

41 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I've known the line has been a problem but I've also said that you need guys who can churn out tough yards and that we stood no chance with forsett. 

Turns out that just maybe... Forsett was the biggest problem. Even buck Allen was worlds apart from forsett.

Did anybody else notice Buck was running with fire as well? In the preseason him and Forsett looked terrible. Forsett took it into the regular season. Buck was constantly moving his legs for extra yardage. 

[K-Dog]

It is a shame.
I really like Justin Forsett. I think he is a classy guy. I think he is the epitome of a team player.
He got kicked around for so many years and finally found a home with the Ravens.  Sadly I don't see him being a Raven through the end of the season.  Not positive he will find work elsewhere either.

I would MUCH prefer he go out on his own terms, but it is not looking good. 

[The Raven]

Oline was pretty good in the run game today. Zuttah REALLY got his act together for the most part. He got a couple pancakes today. Think we went back to mostly zone calls and even went with some wide zones again. It was good to see. Yanda and Wagner were dominant in the run game. Jensen was a difference maker for sure, too. It really works wonders when you get a nimble guard with phone booth quickness to seal his gap.

This is largely because Oakland's DL is smallish and we had better matchups. Zuttah wasn't overwhelmed today.

In pass pro, though, we got wrecked. Jensen and Hurst were porous on the left side. Love Jensen but he really struggles with pass blocking and Idk why. 

If Wagner was hoping to get top five RT money, he just blew his shot. He got owned on the edge.

Edited October 2, 2016 by The Raven